Supporters of the "establish context" rule include: Jimbo Wales, Larry Sanger, LDC, Tim Shell, Linus Tolke, Janet Davis, drj (strongly), Koyaanis Qatsi, GWO, Damian Yerrick, tbc, AxelBoldt, JHK, Enchanter, Tarquin, Rotem Dan (strongly), 168... (strongly) Neutrality (strongly)
Opponents include: 24
24 - no one does this. Look at ontology, the worst example I know. People just say "this is that" and then proceed... some of the first paragraphs bother to set up context, but not many. So I don't like this as a rule, although I do it wherever I can.
Originally at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style--Archive1
Some things that might need to be in here:
I agree with both. Especially the first, which I broke too often in my youth. On that subject, note that we can say something more specific than "In mathematics" (if the subject is truly thus restricted), such as "In topology". We can even say "In homotopy theory", even though most people have no idea what the heck homotopy theory is, because they can click on the link to find out. But we still need some context. — Toby 13:04 Sep 24, 2002 (UTC)
Is it always wrong to begin an article with a brief quotation? I have included a number of them, always italic'd and set off, before the main intro text, as an attempt to provide an immediate cultural reference and context. A number of other respected Wikipedians say that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to include them, and cite this guideline as justification.
Admittedly, the articles I begun or added them to are probably not the most solemn articles. Many of them come from the stock character pages, which have been a minor project of mine. Here cultural references are particularly important and the subjects deal with popular entertainments. I see the quotations myself as establishing immediate context by providing a point of reference; look at the history of mad scientist to see what I mean.
There are other articles, like Lizzie Borden and Old King Cole, where the article's only real subject is a quotation (again, look at the histories); to begin the article with biographical boilerplate, or anything other than the popular rhymes which are the only reason these articles exist, strikes me as to begin with weak and mostly irrelevant material.
If the sense of the community is that these introductory quotes are always wrong, I will move or remove them. I'd just as soon hear from people other than those who have been taking them off, though, as to whether these things are really wrong or not. -- IHCOYC 15:40, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
From the Village pump, 29 August 2003:
Move to Wikipedia talk:Establish context
This is mentioned elsewhere, but I think it's worth reminding the collectivity of it: remember to state the obvious -- or rather, remember that that is obvious to you is not so to the average reader. I had to add this to the start of the new article on the Ford Thunderbird: The Ford Thunderbird is a car manufactured in the USA by the Ford Motor Company. -- the authors did not stop to suppose that the reader does not necessarily know it's a car. This ties in with news style and the 5Ws. -- Tarquin 17:23, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think a better rule of thumb than imagining your audience is from Alpha Centauri may be to imagine that our civilization is destroyed utterly, and our descendants are fortunate enough to uncover an operational Wikipedia while digging through the ruins. We have so much trouble learning about the basic details of ancient civilizations because their writers generally failed to state the obvious... let us not make the same mistake. -- Nelson 13:28, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Agreed. Pretend an alien anthropologist from Alpha Centauri somehow understands English, and is reading Wikipedia to learn about humans. You can't assume anything. -- Wapcaplet 19:37, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Some of the mathematical articles went "straight in", and lost me in the flavour paragraph.
I have noticed that wikipedia has an unofficial style: the first paragraph and userbox are where you learn wat is going on, and below this we have the main article. This makes the article accessible to everyone without "dumbing down" on the article. -- Gigitrix ( talk) 18:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
From Village Pump 10th September 2003 I'd like to propose a new addition to the Wikipedia style, and I'm not sure where else to suggest it. What I would like to see is a guideline that in any article, if there is more than one point of view, descriptions of the article subject come first, and arguments against it come later. So when I went to an article on Global Warming, say, I got a description of Global Warming first and objections to it later. Likewise when I go to Creationism I should find out what creationists believe first, and only then any reasons why people might think they are wrong. DJ Clayworth 20:49, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
At present there are many articles in the Wikipedia namespace that seek to give guidance on how to write better articles. I propose consolidating these into a much smaller number. On User:Jongarrettuk/Better writing guide I propose how these could be consolidated. The proposal is not to change advice, just to consolidate it. If I have inadvertently moved what you consider to be good advice that is currently in the Wikipedia namespace, please re-add it. I'm hope that the proposal to merge all these articles, in principle, will be welcomed. Of course, it may be preferred to have 2, 3 or 4 inter-connected articles than just one and would welcome advice on how this could be done. (In particular, perhaps all the guidance on layout should be spun off into one consolidated article on layout.) I'm also aware that putting lots of different bits of advice together may throw up anomalies or bits that people now disagree with (including bits that I myself disagree with:) ). I ask for support for the consolidation. Once the consolidation has happened, the advice can be changed in the normal way. Please feel free to improve on the current draft consolidation, but don't remove or add advice that is not currently on the Wikipedia namespace. If all goes well, I'll add a new Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles page on the 19th, though maybe some bits of the new article will need to be phased in over a longer period. I'll also take care to preserve all the archived discussion in one place. jguk 19:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why is this a talk page for a project page which does not exist? Hyacinth 21:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Supporters of the "establish context" rule include: Jimbo Wales, Larry Sanger, LDC, Tim Shell, Linus Tolke, Janet Davis, drj (strongly), Koyaanis Qatsi, GWO, Damian Yerrick, tbc, AxelBoldt, JHK, Enchanter, Tarquin, Rotem Dan (strongly), 168... (strongly) Neutrality (strongly)
Opponents include: 24
24 - no one does this. Look at ontology, the worst example I know. People just say "this is that" and then proceed... some of the first paragraphs bother to set up context, but not many. So I don't like this as a rule, although I do it wherever I can.
Originally at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style--Archive1
Some things that might need to be in here:
I agree with both. Especially the first, which I broke too often in my youth. On that subject, note that we can say something more specific than "In mathematics" (if the subject is truly thus restricted), such as "In topology". We can even say "In homotopy theory", even though most people have no idea what the heck homotopy theory is, because they can click on the link to find out. But we still need some context. — Toby 13:04 Sep 24, 2002 (UTC)
Is it always wrong to begin an article with a brief quotation? I have included a number of them, always italic'd and set off, before the main intro text, as an attempt to provide an immediate cultural reference and context. A number of other respected Wikipedians say that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to include them, and cite this guideline as justification.
Admittedly, the articles I begun or added them to are probably not the most solemn articles. Many of them come from the stock character pages, which have been a minor project of mine. Here cultural references are particularly important and the subjects deal with popular entertainments. I see the quotations myself as establishing immediate context by providing a point of reference; look at the history of mad scientist to see what I mean.
There are other articles, like Lizzie Borden and Old King Cole, where the article's only real subject is a quotation (again, look at the histories); to begin the article with biographical boilerplate, or anything other than the popular rhymes which are the only reason these articles exist, strikes me as to begin with weak and mostly irrelevant material.
If the sense of the community is that these introductory quotes are always wrong, I will move or remove them. I'd just as soon hear from people other than those who have been taking them off, though, as to whether these things are really wrong or not. -- IHCOYC 15:40, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
From the Village pump, 29 August 2003:
Move to Wikipedia talk:Establish context
This is mentioned elsewhere, but I think it's worth reminding the collectivity of it: remember to state the obvious -- or rather, remember that that is obvious to you is not so to the average reader. I had to add this to the start of the new article on the Ford Thunderbird: The Ford Thunderbird is a car manufactured in the USA by the Ford Motor Company. -- the authors did not stop to suppose that the reader does not necessarily know it's a car. This ties in with news style and the 5Ws. -- Tarquin 17:23, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think a better rule of thumb than imagining your audience is from Alpha Centauri may be to imagine that our civilization is destroyed utterly, and our descendants are fortunate enough to uncover an operational Wikipedia while digging through the ruins. We have so much trouble learning about the basic details of ancient civilizations because their writers generally failed to state the obvious... let us not make the same mistake. -- Nelson 13:28, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Agreed. Pretend an alien anthropologist from Alpha Centauri somehow understands English, and is reading Wikipedia to learn about humans. You can't assume anything. -- Wapcaplet 19:37, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Some of the mathematical articles went "straight in", and lost me in the flavour paragraph.
I have noticed that wikipedia has an unofficial style: the first paragraph and userbox are where you learn wat is going on, and below this we have the main article. This makes the article accessible to everyone without "dumbing down" on the article. -- Gigitrix ( talk) 18:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
From Village Pump 10th September 2003 I'd like to propose a new addition to the Wikipedia style, and I'm not sure where else to suggest it. What I would like to see is a guideline that in any article, if there is more than one point of view, descriptions of the article subject come first, and arguments against it come later. So when I went to an article on Global Warming, say, I got a description of Global Warming first and objections to it later. Likewise when I go to Creationism I should find out what creationists believe first, and only then any reasons why people might think they are wrong. DJ Clayworth 20:49, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
At present there are many articles in the Wikipedia namespace that seek to give guidance on how to write better articles. I propose consolidating these into a much smaller number. On User:Jongarrettuk/Better writing guide I propose how these could be consolidated. The proposal is not to change advice, just to consolidate it. If I have inadvertently moved what you consider to be good advice that is currently in the Wikipedia namespace, please re-add it. I'm hope that the proposal to merge all these articles, in principle, will be welcomed. Of course, it may be preferred to have 2, 3 or 4 inter-connected articles than just one and would welcome advice on how this could be done. (In particular, perhaps all the guidance on layout should be spun off into one consolidated article on layout.) I'm also aware that putting lots of different bits of advice together may throw up anomalies or bits that people now disagree with (including bits that I myself disagree with:) ). I ask for support for the consolidation. Once the consolidation has happened, the advice can be changed in the normal way. Please feel free to improve on the current draft consolidation, but don't remove or add advice that is not currently on the Wikipedia namespace. If all goes well, I'll add a new Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles page on the 19th, though maybe some bits of the new article will need to be phased in over a longer period. I'll also take care to preserve all the archived discussion in one place. jguk 19:44, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why is this a talk page for a project page which does not exist? Hyacinth 21:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)