The Editor's Forum has been designed on User:Ed/Sandbox. Should it become an EA program now?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made a survey. Please participate in it, but be prepared; it is VERY long. [1] Wiki eZach| talk 05:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I will close it within 24 hours, and give all the results here then. Wiki eZach| talk 22:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
There are many proposal to change the charter floating around Esperanza right now. Let's talk about all of them in an Esperanza IRC charter "debate". I believe a good time would be exactly one week from today. In US Eastern Time, 5:30pm, next week, on Friday. What do ya'll think? Wiki eZach| talk 22:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Maybe this should be the first of many. I have provided sites to download it, for free above. Yes, we will post any things we agree on. Wiki eZach| talk 22:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Certain Esperanzans may experience a drop in the number of edits. This is not a bug; it is because of the recent deletion of some pages during the overhaul. I myself have lost some 1000 edits :'-( --May the Force be with you! Shr e shth91 11:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes...I noticed. Ah well, it's good I think, because this way I don't have to answer to all my WikiPlomacy and Coffee Lounge edits... Dooms Day349 18:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As you know, we have the upcoming IRC Charter debate this week. I would like to ask, on this same issue, if anyone would support a "Committee" to meet more often and then give a single proposal to Esperanza for a new charter. It should consist of all those who gave proposals. What do you think? -- Wiki eZach| talk 22:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Done, I will post the agenda for the meeting along with the results of the survey tomorrow around 6pm. Wiki eZach| talk 02:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I think it's 6:30am in the morning. Sorry. Wiki eZach| talk 02:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
ATTENTION!
The debate is about to begin. Anyone on, please come to IRC. Dooms Day349 22:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello all! Of (sadly) only 21 people taking the poll and some missing some questions, here are the un-edited results:
1. Should the current charter expire eventually?
YES 52.4% (11 votes) NO 47.6% (10 votes)
2. How much should be required to scrap the current charter and write a new one?
TWO-THIRDS 47.6% (10 votes) ALMOST ALL 23.8% (5 votes) A MAJORITY 23.8% (5 votes) THREE-FIFTHS 4.8% (1 vote)
3. Should the above proposal be approved? (Wikizach proposal)
NO 42.1% (8 votes) YES 36.8% (7 votes) ? 21.1% (4 votes)
Kim Bruning Proposal 4. Are you in favor of the above proposal?
YES 47.4% (9 votes) NO 31.6% (6 votes) ? 21.1% (4 votes)
Roninbk's Proposal 5. Do you approve of the above stated proposal?
? 38.9% (7 votes) NO 33.3% (6 votes) YES 27.8% (5 votes)
Quack's proposal 6. Do you approve of the above proposal?
YES 55.6% (10 votes) NO 38.9% (7 votes) ? 5.6% (1 vote)
Becuase of this, the Agenda for the IRC meeting will go one by one for each proposal; from most popular to least. Wiki eZach| talk 23:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
ARGH! I said (slightly paraphrased ;-) ) "Enough is enough, I've had it with this mfing bureaucracy in this mfing wikiproject". I followed that up by applying the KISS principle, and seeding a new wikipage. I was hoping that people would actually try to do some wiki editing on that page. A novel concept, I'm sure.
The apparent outcome? "Kim Bruning's proposal has 47% approval".
Does that count as Morisettian irony, or what?
Well, sorry. That's just not good enough.
I strongly reccommend that Esperanza interpret their mandate to include teaching their members about the key concepts of ...:
...and their application on wikipedia.
This should be Esperanza's first priority, and Esperanza should pursue this goal with great urgency. No one should be a member of esperanza without at least promising to make the effort to learn these concepts.
Don't make this a priority because I say so; don't make it a priority because it's a good idea; but make it a priority because -well, it has to be said- how else can you even dare to claim that esperanza is "here to help with wikipedia"?
Esperanza has some smart people helping out. I'm sure that Esperanza can easily meet these undemanding, simple, but fundamental goals :-) . I expect Esperanza to take the lead, to strive for excellence at all times, and to show others how it's done!
Kim Bruning 16:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't find anything about how to join esperanza. Can someone please tell me why on my talk page? Eskimospy 18:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Just on the offchance that someone will read this very soon, the IRC debate will be starting in just a few minutes, so please share your thoughts. See WP:IRC to connect. Best, Dar- Ape 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Report for the First Session of the Charter Debate (there will be more throughout the next 20 hours)
We recessed for an hour for dinner.
--Wikizach, Clerk of the Session Wiki eZach| talk 00:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[6] Wiki eZach| talk 03:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Who makes up these surveys? Kim Bruning 16:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The First Esperanza IRC meeting has closed with plenty of progress made. The next meeting has been scheduled for December 8, 2006 22:30 UTC. A summary of the discussion will be posted shortly.-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 05:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, according to wikipedia, there's several definitions of western hemispere. The most common one only includes a small number of time zones, and excludes a large number of english speakers :-P Kim Bruning 22:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 21:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Duh, find a time that everyone can be online at once. Isn't that around um, 20:00-22:00 UTC? Kim Bruning 00:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Lets give our members who are not apart of the governing body to vote on more things. -- Sir james paul 22:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Look here please! If you want a question asked, tell me on my talk page. Wiki eZach| talk 01:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we stop all discussions and start over again. Like I said in the previous section (#Re-evaluation), we should take a moment to "walk away" from discussion, look at the state we are in, and move on from there. In our discussions, are we taking a look at the problems of Esperanza before the overhaul or the problems it has right now?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Esperanza/Charter Proposal Voting Wiki eZach| talk 11:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we look at this organization and re-evaluate ourselves. Have we improved? How can be better involved in the WikiCommunity? Have we accomplished our goals? How much longer must our reform take? (etc.) This is important now because of the new reforms Esperanza just went through.
BTW, when is the next AC meeting?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 00:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just making a comment. Wiki eZach| talk 00:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think that Esperanza needs more programs to help the community in a better way. If you compare Esperanza before the overhauls with its current condition, we have lost around 1/2 of our programs! Now we're just a bunch of people trying to debate on what step to take next, with no overall effect on the wider community of Wikipedia. Our efforts to help the Esperanzian community fail to help the Wikipedian community. Remember the Esperanza is not a seperate community. It is imperative that we look outside the box, to see how our actions will affect the community, and work quickly so that we may acheive our goals much faster. -- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that I feel has been brought up a couple of times during this overhaul has been that Esperanza can be used as not only a supportive group for our editors, but also as a teaching organization. We already do a this in some places, for example Admin Coaching and the Tutorial Drive, but I'd also like to see Esperanza go out to find and help newbies when they need help, the same way as we go and find the people who need support. We have a great many experienced editors involved in Esperanza, so it seems to make sense to take advantage of this. I'm not sure as to whether we want to put something in our charter about this, or what, but I did think that we should remember that Esperanza is here to offer hope, and helping people to become better editors comes into that. Thε Halo Θ 13:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The usual suspects, is it? :-) Some of these people are probably immune to my charms by now though. :-P Let's see if I can find them. Kim Bruning 00:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
About your proposal, Halo, I think that your idea sort of overlaps with the purposes of the Welcoming Committee. Perhaps we can propose a merger between both organizations. Even then, you have great ideas! Keep them coming!-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this has anything to do with the welcoming committee.
That, and, before esperanza goes out and deals with splinters in other peoples eyes, it's going to have to deal with the log in its own eye.
During the esperanza reform discussions, I'd like to have some people around who actually understand how wikis work and how encyclopedias work, and how to deal with online organisations.
While it's very tempting to exclude inexperienced esperanzans from the overhaul discussions, it might be wiser to have some experienced people around to help and support the newer or less involved esperanza members, so that they can still effectively participate. Kim Bruning 16:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Despite all of the heated discussion we have been going through, it is still important to watch out for all of our members. I would like to encourage all of you to leave a message for a leaving user ( User:Moe Epsilon) [7].-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
To the Advisory Council members and all Esperanza members. It has come to my attention that the polls, surveys, and heated debates on how to run such a large organization will come in conflict with the December Elections. I ask that the council hold a special emergency meeting and postpone the election for at least one month. Thank you, Wiki eZach| talk 01:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with it? Wiki eZach| talk 02:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
IIRC there was a meeting already scheduled for sometime early this week? Kim Bruning 14:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to inform the Esperanza community that the admin coaching has been revamped. The Transhumanist and I have been making changes to the structure, but not the project concept (i.e. it is still called "admin coaching"), but the request list and volunteer lists have been separated into subpages. We hope that the project pages are now more user-friendly. Our eventual plan is to have the project more or less run itself, by having coaches contact students themselves, without going though a coordinator. This will eliminate the chances of the program stagnating while the coordinator goes on Wikibreak. However there is a very old backlog of requests that we are working through first, and should be cleared before the program can really "run itself". So, that's the plan. I realize that some of the AC members are on wikibreak, but if there's going to be a newsletter soon I can write an announcement. I know that some people think the project should be renamed; I don't agree, but a name change won't change the functionality aspects that we are now working on. Thanks, Fang Aili talk 20:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
How? -- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia |wanna Talk? 05:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
If Esperanza wants to conduct its appreciation week to include January 15, I think we should began planning in earnest as soon as possible, so that people can have sufficient notification of what might be happening and the like. Badbilltucker 16:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What's on January 15? I forgot.
Wiki
eZach|
talk
20:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Are we holding an election or not? Wiki eZach| talk 23:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
No, no no! Current consensus - by 4 to 7 - at the voting page is to GET RID of the AC! No point in holding elections for something we're getting rid of. This sounds like an attempt to get your way by the back door. Moreschi 13:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What I meant by two months is that after the voting is over, drafing something will take awhile/ Wiki eZach| talk 00:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The Editor's Forum was proposed a month ago on the proposals page, and lately all conversation/action regarding it has stalled. There is currently a consensus supporting it (not a single vote rejecting it, yet). Considering the above, I am assuming that it should be okay to create the page. The draft is currently at User:Ed/Sandbox. So my question is: Is it okay to start the program yet? Shards of metal 22:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The page has been created at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Editors' Forum. Shards of metal 03:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, as I have been busy editing and RC patrolling for a few months. Just wondering, why were programs such as the Barnstar Brigade deleted? Were they all deemed inappropriate while I was away working? I dunno...but Esperanza is not bringing a lot of "esperanza" my way with these overhauls and no clarity nor statements as to why these cuts have been made. I was a bit disappointed by lack of response to this question here as well [8]. Back to work for me... - Kukini 02:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
If you check out the history of Wikipedia:Esperanza/M, you can see that a few people have left Esperanza in protest to several things. How are we going to fix this? We need to find a solution fast!-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Here are the results to be used in the creation of the Charter;
Should we keep the Advisory council in its current structure with 7 members?
4-7; NO
Should the Council's powers be limited to housekeeping jobs and declaring consensus?
3-3-1; Consensus Not Reached
Should we coutinue to have an Administrator General?
6-0; YES
In the case we keep an AdminGen, should the person be elected out of the council or by the people directly?
8-0; By Direct-Vote
Should there be some form of requirements to join our membership?
1-8; NO
In the case a council member or the Admin.Gen. does something wrong (to be determined in detail if this is passed) then should there be a procedure in place to remove them?
6-2; YES
Do you agree with the idea to have an "expanded legislature" that would consist of a ten-member body to make sure the council is doing it's job?
2-8; NO
Should regular members be allowed to 'submit' stories for the EP Newsletter to be edited by the council?
2-5-0; YES, IF EDITED BY COUNCIL
Should we try to make Esperanza less reliant on formal procedures, official structures and parliamentary-style voting?
6-0-1; YES
Should procedures be put in place to suspend or remove disruptive members from Esperanza?
1-4; NO
Should we abolish the idea of membership entirely?
6-2-1; YES
The Above are the results; within 15 days, I will sumbit a new charter for review using the above results and other commentary-- Wiki eZach| talk 00:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Might I kindly suggest that these results NOT be used to create a new charter? I could put forward a large number of arguments as to why, and what was wrong with this, but I don't really have to...
Because:
<falls over laughing> hoist by your own petard! ;-)
Kim Bruning 22:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I am ready to become part of the Council, how do I run? I know I'm new, but I would love to run. Laleena talk to me contributions to Wikipedia 13:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I would now like to make a proposal. Let's have elections in which the people running use their thoughts for a new Charter as part of their statement. With such an election, the council would be like a refferendum on a charter. Wiki eZach| talk 19:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Reminds me of a spell from Zork Grand Inquisitor called lladnek : "Make simple things complicated"
I would like to make a new proposal.<casts kendall>:
We declare Natalya the defacto Esperanza coordinator until and unless we find something sane to do with all of this.
Kim Bruning 15:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm JDitto, and I'm wondering if I can join this group. I'm a Christian wikipedian looking for ways to be nice to others so when I found this page it seems to be just the right thing to join. What are the requirements? -- JDitto 19:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
How do I count my edits? -- JDitto 02:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Ah, so this is where the editcountitis starts then, is it? Kim Bruning 03:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask all of you fellow wikipedians to go around giving smiles to people because it promotes wikilove.
~~~ has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding, {{ subst: User:Cowman109/Smile2}} or {{ subst: User:Cowman109/Smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!
Of course, some people end up looking very :-( when you spam their userpage with a generic template, instead of actually speaking to them in a human voice. <innocent look> Kim Bruning 00:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
~~~ has frowned at you! Frowns promote
WikiHate and hopefully this one has made your day worse. Spread the WikiHate by frowning at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing! Go to hell!
Frown at others by adding {{
subst|
frown}} to their talk page with a hateful message.
Signed: Captain Quack - Commanding Officer, Intergalactic Fun Patrol (Merry Christmas Battalion). 02:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
<falls over laughing> Kim Bruning 03:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick reminder that this page was pretty big a month or so ago: Wikipedia:Esperanza/New_charter. I've sliced down my governance section based on the last vote, I'm leaning more towards individual program coordinators. If someone else wants to update the proposal they put there, or make up a brand new one, go for it. I don't really see the point of starting another new page about all this when we can just Wiki-edit those ones.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, y'all! Quack 688 01:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
As a new comer to esperanza I thought I'd stop by and give others a chance to welcome me. ;-)
Actually, I wanted to make a comment which I think will be encouraging to everyone here, not only in this group but in all of Wikipedia.
I spent a lot of time over at Uncyclopediaand finally lost much of my enthusiasm for what I thought would be a fun place to do some editing and contributing. It's supposed to be a fun place, but I've been left with the impression that most of the administrators there are a very cliquish who seem to get some kind of enjoyment out of making outsiders feel unwelcome. On the other hand, I've found a lot more support and welcome here at Wikipedia even though I have run into some other users who I've not shared the same views, I still feel much more welcomed and at home even without the Esperanza group. I hope I can make a positive contribution to your efforts, even though my time is limited and my visits may be sporadic. -- JAXHERE | Talk 02:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Most of the community is gone. Isn't Esperanza supposed to promote community? We deleted things like Barnster Brigade, which raises morale. The community is almost, if not totally gone. We said, in order to stay and not me MFD'd again, we would have to change some things. Well, we did, and now we have the choice between Esperanza but no community aspect, or Esperanza w/ community and be deleted. Isn't there anything in between? T e ckWiz Talk Contribs @ 02:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that's because there was little to it but a group of editors who chatted with each other. With no other substance, of course it's going to fall apart when you take that away. It's also why esperanza went up for deletion in the first place. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 05:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The collaboration of the month was started barely a month ago. It hasn't even done that much. The tutorial drive was active for a week and stopped, and the alerts page has hardly been free of criticism. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 15:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
You know, most of what we are talking about here nowadays are about Esperanza's problems and all that, obviously, to a newcomer, it would be boring talk. Why don't we move all this to another page? Zachary crimsonwol f 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Instead of discussing the charter, let me pose a seemingly very simple question: What is Esperanza for?
I ask because it seems to me that people are leaving and complaining about the lack of community - but the original purpose of Esperanza was to provide hope to Wikipedians. What does this mean? What can Esperanza offer by creating their own community here, that the Kindness Campaigners, who carry their beliefs out into the wider community, do not? What does it mean to "support the community", as asked above? It seems to me that Esperanza is now going through the same questioning process as Concordia - nice idea, but how does it work? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
If we do, we can never go back. Wiki eZach| talk 03:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Why does Esperanza need more of a charter than other Wiki-groups?
Now, exactly how long should this charter be?
The first solution requires a lot of work now, but I still think it looks better than the alternatives. Quack 688 17:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Come to think of it, solution 5 resembles solution 2. The advantage is that you immediately have a working system you can test on, and you don't have have everyone stand around waiting while you're busy. You can just get right down to business, and things will sort themselves out.
The exact reasons why wiki-editing is so superior to all other methods won't quite fit into the margin of this edit. :-P
The fact that wikis were developed alongside agile development methods is the first big clue you'd get that they may now form some kind of quantum leap in allowing human collaboration. That there is a > 1 million page wiki that we're typing this on is another clue ;-)
Wikis are amazing. Seriously, try them! (and Ed thought I was being sarcastic before. Are we really even having this argument? :-P )
Kim Bruning 21:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Esperanza is currently being considered for deletion at Miscellany for Deletion; I invite all Esperanzians and non-Esperanzians to visit the debate page and give their opinion, in order for us to retrieve a true consensus.
Cheers and regards,
Anthony
cfc
13:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what will become of the Admin Coaching? I heard from someone that it will be moved, but to where? Zachary crimsonwol f 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 09:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Consensus at the MFD appears to be for Esperanza's deletion. What should the aftermath be?
For starters, we have to decide what will happen to the programs. While they will probably be deleted with Esperanza, some of them, such as the Stress Alerts and Admin Coaching, deserve to be kept.
We also have to consider how Esperanza will be deleted. Should all Esperanza pages be simply deleted? Deleted and salted? The MessedRocker solution (which entails redirecting all subpages to the main page, placing an {{historical}} tag on the main page, and protecting all pages) will not affect our edit counts.
Some have suggested converting Esperanza's front page into an essay about its ideals, the membership list into a list of people who support the ideals, and "de-Esperanzing" our programs (I think this is an excellent idea). Perhaps a fork - ironically, the situation Esperanza was created to avoid - might be neccesary. Should either occur, I pledge to continue my support to Esperanza.
-- J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The Editor's Forum has been designed on User:Ed/Sandbox. Should it become an EA program now?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made a survey. Please participate in it, but be prepared; it is VERY long. [1] Wiki eZach| talk 05:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I will close it within 24 hours, and give all the results here then. Wiki eZach| talk 22:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
There are many proposal to change the charter floating around Esperanza right now. Let's talk about all of them in an Esperanza IRC charter "debate". I believe a good time would be exactly one week from today. In US Eastern Time, 5:30pm, next week, on Friday. What do ya'll think? Wiki eZach| talk 22:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Maybe this should be the first of many. I have provided sites to download it, for free above. Yes, we will post any things we agree on. Wiki eZach| talk 22:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Certain Esperanzans may experience a drop in the number of edits. This is not a bug; it is because of the recent deletion of some pages during the overhaul. I myself have lost some 1000 edits :'-( --May the Force be with you! Shr e shth91 11:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes...I noticed. Ah well, it's good I think, because this way I don't have to answer to all my WikiPlomacy and Coffee Lounge edits... Dooms Day349 18:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As you know, we have the upcoming IRC Charter debate this week. I would like to ask, on this same issue, if anyone would support a "Committee" to meet more often and then give a single proposal to Esperanza for a new charter. It should consist of all those who gave proposals. What do you think? -- Wiki eZach| talk 22:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Done, I will post the agenda for the meeting along with the results of the survey tomorrow around 6pm. Wiki eZach| talk 02:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I think it's 6:30am in the morning. Sorry. Wiki eZach| talk 02:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
ATTENTION!
The debate is about to begin. Anyone on, please come to IRC. Dooms Day349 22:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello all! Of (sadly) only 21 people taking the poll and some missing some questions, here are the un-edited results:
1. Should the current charter expire eventually?
YES 52.4% (11 votes) NO 47.6% (10 votes)
2. How much should be required to scrap the current charter and write a new one?
TWO-THIRDS 47.6% (10 votes) ALMOST ALL 23.8% (5 votes) A MAJORITY 23.8% (5 votes) THREE-FIFTHS 4.8% (1 vote)
3. Should the above proposal be approved? (Wikizach proposal)
NO 42.1% (8 votes) YES 36.8% (7 votes) ? 21.1% (4 votes)
Kim Bruning Proposal 4. Are you in favor of the above proposal?
YES 47.4% (9 votes) NO 31.6% (6 votes) ? 21.1% (4 votes)
Roninbk's Proposal 5. Do you approve of the above stated proposal?
? 38.9% (7 votes) NO 33.3% (6 votes) YES 27.8% (5 votes)
Quack's proposal 6. Do you approve of the above proposal?
YES 55.6% (10 votes) NO 38.9% (7 votes) ? 5.6% (1 vote)
Becuase of this, the Agenda for the IRC meeting will go one by one for each proposal; from most popular to least. Wiki eZach| talk 23:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
ARGH! I said (slightly paraphrased ;-) ) "Enough is enough, I've had it with this mfing bureaucracy in this mfing wikiproject". I followed that up by applying the KISS principle, and seeding a new wikipage. I was hoping that people would actually try to do some wiki editing on that page. A novel concept, I'm sure.
The apparent outcome? "Kim Bruning's proposal has 47% approval".
Does that count as Morisettian irony, or what?
Well, sorry. That's just not good enough.
I strongly reccommend that Esperanza interpret their mandate to include teaching their members about the key concepts of ...:
...and their application on wikipedia.
This should be Esperanza's first priority, and Esperanza should pursue this goal with great urgency. No one should be a member of esperanza without at least promising to make the effort to learn these concepts.
Don't make this a priority because I say so; don't make it a priority because it's a good idea; but make it a priority because -well, it has to be said- how else can you even dare to claim that esperanza is "here to help with wikipedia"?
Esperanza has some smart people helping out. I'm sure that Esperanza can easily meet these undemanding, simple, but fundamental goals :-) . I expect Esperanza to take the lead, to strive for excellence at all times, and to show others how it's done!
Kim Bruning 16:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I can't find anything about how to join esperanza. Can someone please tell me why on my talk page? Eskimospy 18:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Just on the offchance that someone will read this very soon, the IRC debate will be starting in just a few minutes, so please share your thoughts. See WP:IRC to connect. Best, Dar- Ape 22:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Report for the First Session of the Charter Debate (there will be more throughout the next 20 hours)
We recessed for an hour for dinner.
--Wikizach, Clerk of the Session Wiki eZach| talk 00:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[6] Wiki eZach| talk 03:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Who makes up these surveys? Kim Bruning 16:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The First Esperanza IRC meeting has closed with plenty of progress made. The next meeting has been scheduled for December 8, 2006 22:30 UTC. A summary of the discussion will be posted shortly.-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 05:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, according to wikipedia, there's several definitions of western hemispere. The most common one only includes a small number of time zones, and excludes a large number of english speakers :-P Kim Bruning 22:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 21:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Duh, find a time that everyone can be online at once. Isn't that around um, 20:00-22:00 UTC? Kim Bruning 00:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Lets give our members who are not apart of the governing body to vote on more things. -- Sir james paul 22:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Look here please! If you want a question asked, tell me on my talk page. Wiki eZach| talk 01:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we stop all discussions and start over again. Like I said in the previous section (#Re-evaluation), we should take a moment to "walk away" from discussion, look at the state we are in, and move on from there. In our discussions, are we taking a look at the problems of Esperanza before the overhaul or the problems it has right now?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Esperanza/Charter Proposal Voting Wiki eZach| talk 11:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be best if we look at this organization and re-evaluate ourselves. Have we improved? How can be better involved in the WikiCommunity? Have we accomplished our goals? How much longer must our reform take? (etc.) This is important now because of the new reforms Esperanza just went through.
BTW, when is the next AC meeting?-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 00:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just making a comment. Wiki eZach| talk 00:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I think that Esperanza needs more programs to help the community in a better way. If you compare Esperanza before the overhauls with its current condition, we have lost around 1/2 of our programs! Now we're just a bunch of people trying to debate on what step to take next, with no overall effect on the wider community of Wikipedia. Our efforts to help the Esperanzian community fail to help the Wikipedian community. Remember the Esperanza is not a seperate community. It is imperative that we look outside the box, to see how our actions will affect the community, and work quickly so that we may acheive our goals much faster. -- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that I feel has been brought up a couple of times during this overhaul has been that Esperanza can be used as not only a supportive group for our editors, but also as a teaching organization. We already do a this in some places, for example Admin Coaching and the Tutorial Drive, but I'd also like to see Esperanza go out to find and help newbies when they need help, the same way as we go and find the people who need support. We have a great many experienced editors involved in Esperanza, so it seems to make sense to take advantage of this. I'm not sure as to whether we want to put something in our charter about this, or what, but I did think that we should remember that Esperanza is here to offer hope, and helping people to become better editors comes into that. Thε Halo Θ 13:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The usual suspects, is it? :-) Some of these people are probably immune to my charms by now though. :-P Let's see if I can find them. Kim Bruning 00:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
About your proposal, Halo, I think that your idea sort of overlaps with the purposes of the Welcoming Committee. Perhaps we can propose a merger between both organizations. Even then, you have great ideas! Keep them coming!-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 04:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this has anything to do with the welcoming committee.
That, and, before esperanza goes out and deals with splinters in other peoples eyes, it's going to have to deal with the log in its own eye.
During the esperanza reform discussions, I'd like to have some people around who actually understand how wikis work and how encyclopedias work, and how to deal with online organisations.
While it's very tempting to exclude inexperienced esperanzans from the overhaul discussions, it might be wiser to have some experienced people around to help and support the newer or less involved esperanza members, so that they can still effectively participate. Kim Bruning 16:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Despite all of the heated discussion we have been going through, it is still important to watch out for all of our members. I would like to encourage all of you to leave a message for a leaving user ( User:Moe Epsilon) [7].-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
To the Advisory Council members and all Esperanza members. It has come to my attention that the polls, surveys, and heated debates on how to run such a large organization will come in conflict with the December Elections. I ask that the council hold a special emergency meeting and postpone the election for at least one month. Thank you, Wiki eZach| talk 01:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with it? Wiki eZach| talk 02:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
IIRC there was a meeting already scheduled for sometime early this week? Kim Bruning 14:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to inform the Esperanza community that the admin coaching has been revamped. The Transhumanist and I have been making changes to the structure, but not the project concept (i.e. it is still called "admin coaching"), but the request list and volunteer lists have been separated into subpages. We hope that the project pages are now more user-friendly. Our eventual plan is to have the project more or less run itself, by having coaches contact students themselves, without going though a coordinator. This will eliminate the chances of the program stagnating while the coordinator goes on Wikibreak. However there is a very old backlog of requests that we are working through first, and should be cleared before the program can really "run itself". So, that's the plan. I realize that some of the AC members are on wikibreak, but if there's going to be a newsletter soon I can write an announcement. I know that some people think the project should be renamed; I don't agree, but a name change won't change the functionality aspects that we are now working on. Thanks, Fang Aili talk 20:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
How? -- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia |wanna Talk? 05:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
If Esperanza wants to conduct its appreciation week to include January 15, I think we should began planning in earnest as soon as possible, so that people can have sufficient notification of what might be happening and the like. Badbilltucker 16:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What's on January 15? I forgot.
Wiki
eZach|
talk
20:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Are we holding an election or not? Wiki eZach| talk 23:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
No, no no! Current consensus - by 4 to 7 - at the voting page is to GET RID of the AC! No point in holding elections for something we're getting rid of. This sounds like an attempt to get your way by the back door. Moreschi 13:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
What I meant by two months is that after the voting is over, drafing something will take awhile/ Wiki eZach| talk 00:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The Editor's Forum was proposed a month ago on the proposals page, and lately all conversation/action regarding it has stalled. There is currently a consensus supporting it (not a single vote rejecting it, yet). Considering the above, I am assuming that it should be okay to create the page. The draft is currently at User:Ed/Sandbox. So my question is: Is it okay to start the program yet? Shards of metal 22:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The page has been created at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Editors' Forum. Shards of metal 03:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, as I have been busy editing and RC patrolling for a few months. Just wondering, why were programs such as the Barnstar Brigade deleted? Were they all deemed inappropriate while I was away working? I dunno...but Esperanza is not bringing a lot of "esperanza" my way with these overhauls and no clarity nor statements as to why these cuts have been made. I was a bit disappointed by lack of response to this question here as well [8]. Back to work for me... - Kukini 02:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
If you check out the history of Wikipedia:Esperanza/M, you can see that a few people have left Esperanza in protest to several things. How are we going to fix this? We need to find a solution fast!-- Ed ¿Cómo estás? 02:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Here are the results to be used in the creation of the Charter;
Should we keep the Advisory council in its current structure with 7 members?
4-7; NO
Should the Council's powers be limited to housekeeping jobs and declaring consensus?
3-3-1; Consensus Not Reached
Should we coutinue to have an Administrator General?
6-0; YES
In the case we keep an AdminGen, should the person be elected out of the council or by the people directly?
8-0; By Direct-Vote
Should there be some form of requirements to join our membership?
1-8; NO
In the case a council member or the Admin.Gen. does something wrong (to be determined in detail if this is passed) then should there be a procedure in place to remove them?
6-2; YES
Do you agree with the idea to have an "expanded legislature" that would consist of a ten-member body to make sure the council is doing it's job?
2-8; NO
Should regular members be allowed to 'submit' stories for the EP Newsletter to be edited by the council?
2-5-0; YES, IF EDITED BY COUNCIL
Should we try to make Esperanza less reliant on formal procedures, official structures and parliamentary-style voting?
6-0-1; YES
Should procedures be put in place to suspend or remove disruptive members from Esperanza?
1-4; NO
Should we abolish the idea of membership entirely?
6-2-1; YES
The Above are the results; within 15 days, I will sumbit a new charter for review using the above results and other commentary-- Wiki eZach| talk 00:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Might I kindly suggest that these results NOT be used to create a new charter? I could put forward a large number of arguments as to why, and what was wrong with this, but I don't really have to...
Because:
<falls over laughing> hoist by your own petard! ;-)
Kim Bruning 22:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I am ready to become part of the Council, how do I run? I know I'm new, but I would love to run. Laleena talk to me contributions to Wikipedia 13:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I would now like to make a proposal. Let's have elections in which the people running use their thoughts for a new Charter as part of their statement. With such an election, the council would be like a refferendum on a charter. Wiki eZach| talk 19:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Reminds me of a spell from Zork Grand Inquisitor called lladnek : "Make simple things complicated"
I would like to make a new proposal.<casts kendall>:
We declare Natalya the defacto Esperanza coordinator until and unless we find something sane to do with all of this.
Kim Bruning 15:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm JDitto, and I'm wondering if I can join this group. I'm a Christian wikipedian looking for ways to be nice to others so when I found this page it seems to be just the right thing to join. What are the requirements? -- JDitto 19:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
How do I count my edits? -- JDitto 02:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Ah, so this is where the editcountitis starts then, is it? Kim Bruning 03:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask all of you fellow wikipedians to go around giving smiles to people because it promotes wikilove.
~~~ has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding, {{ subst: User:Cowman109/Smile2}} or {{ subst: User:Cowman109/Smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!
Of course, some people end up looking very :-( when you spam their userpage with a generic template, instead of actually speaking to them in a human voice. <innocent look> Kim Bruning 00:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
~~~ has frowned at you! Frowns promote
WikiHate and hopefully this one has made your day worse. Spread the WikiHate by frowning at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing! Go to hell!
Frown at others by adding {{
subst|
frown}} to their talk page with a hateful message.
Signed: Captain Quack - Commanding Officer, Intergalactic Fun Patrol (Merry Christmas Battalion). 02:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
<falls over laughing> Kim Bruning 03:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick reminder that this page was pretty big a month or so ago: Wikipedia:Esperanza/New_charter. I've sliced down my governance section based on the last vote, I'm leaning more towards individual program coordinators. If someone else wants to update the proposal they put there, or make up a brand new one, go for it. I don't really see the point of starting another new page about all this when we can just Wiki-edit those ones.
Oh, and Merry Christmas, y'all! Quack 688 01:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
As a new comer to esperanza I thought I'd stop by and give others a chance to welcome me. ;-)
Actually, I wanted to make a comment which I think will be encouraging to everyone here, not only in this group but in all of Wikipedia.
I spent a lot of time over at Uncyclopediaand finally lost much of my enthusiasm for what I thought would be a fun place to do some editing and contributing. It's supposed to be a fun place, but I've been left with the impression that most of the administrators there are a very cliquish who seem to get some kind of enjoyment out of making outsiders feel unwelcome. On the other hand, I've found a lot more support and welcome here at Wikipedia even though I have run into some other users who I've not shared the same views, I still feel much more welcomed and at home even without the Esperanza group. I hope I can make a positive contribution to your efforts, even though my time is limited and my visits may be sporadic. -- JAXHERE | Talk 02:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Most of the community is gone. Isn't Esperanza supposed to promote community? We deleted things like Barnster Brigade, which raises morale. The community is almost, if not totally gone. We said, in order to stay and not me MFD'd again, we would have to change some things. Well, we did, and now we have the choice between Esperanza but no community aspect, or Esperanza w/ community and be deleted. Isn't there anything in between? T e ckWiz Talk Contribs @ 02:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that's because there was little to it but a group of editors who chatted with each other. With no other substance, of course it's going to fall apart when you take that away. It's also why esperanza went up for deletion in the first place. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 05:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The collaboration of the month was started barely a month ago. It hasn't even done that much. The tutorial drive was active for a week and stopped, and the alerts page has hardly been free of criticism. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 15:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
You know, most of what we are talking about here nowadays are about Esperanza's problems and all that, obviously, to a newcomer, it would be boring talk. Why don't we move all this to another page? Zachary crimsonwol f 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Instead of discussing the charter, let me pose a seemingly very simple question: What is Esperanza for?
I ask because it seems to me that people are leaving and complaining about the lack of community - but the original purpose of Esperanza was to provide hope to Wikipedians. What does this mean? What can Esperanza offer by creating their own community here, that the Kindness Campaigners, who carry their beliefs out into the wider community, do not? What does it mean to "support the community", as asked above? It seems to me that Esperanza is now going through the same questioning process as Concordia - nice idea, but how does it work? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
If we do, we can never go back. Wiki eZach| talk 03:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Why does Esperanza need more of a charter than other Wiki-groups?
Now, exactly how long should this charter be?
The first solution requires a lot of work now, but I still think it looks better than the alternatives. Quack 688 17:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Come to think of it, solution 5 resembles solution 2. The advantage is that you immediately have a working system you can test on, and you don't have have everyone stand around waiting while you're busy. You can just get right down to business, and things will sort themselves out.
The exact reasons why wiki-editing is so superior to all other methods won't quite fit into the margin of this edit. :-P
The fact that wikis were developed alongside agile development methods is the first big clue you'd get that they may now form some kind of quantum leap in allowing human collaboration. That there is a > 1 million page wiki that we're typing this on is another clue ;-)
Wikis are amazing. Seriously, try them! (and Ed thought I was being sarcastic before. Are we really even having this argument? :-P )
Kim Bruning 21:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Esperanza is currently being considered for deletion at Miscellany for Deletion; I invite all Esperanzians and non-Esperanzians to visit the debate page and give their opinion, in order for us to retrieve a true consensus.
Cheers and regards,
Anthony
cfc
13:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what will become of the Admin Coaching? I heard from someone that it will be moved, but to where? Zachary crimsonwol f 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 09:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Consensus at the MFD appears to be for Esperanza's deletion. What should the aftermath be?
For starters, we have to decide what will happen to the programs. While they will probably be deleted with Esperanza, some of them, such as the Stress Alerts and Admin Coaching, deserve to be kept.
We also have to consider how Esperanza will be deleted. Should all Esperanza pages be simply deleted? Deleted and salted? The MessedRocker solution (which entails redirecting all subpages to the main page, placing an {{historical}} tag on the main page, and protecting all pages) will not affect our edit counts.
Some have suggested converting Esperanza's front page into an essay about its ideals, the membership list into a list of people who support the ideals, and "de-Esperanzing" our programs (I think this is an excellent idea). Perhaps a fork - ironically, the situation Esperanza was created to avoid - might be neccesary. Should either occur, I pledge to continue my support to Esperanza.
-- J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)