Right, I now feel it is the right time to come off from the WikiBreak. Everyone has had a chance to think things through and calm down from the events of circa 1 month ago. I propose a new, fresh, clean start. I'd like to have a rational discussion about what Esperanza should be (i.e., to best suit its goals) and then use this to create a new, improved, more effective place for stressed Wikipedians to receive help and to build a better sense of community. Kind regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 16:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
W00t! Just w00t. :) Misza 13 T C 17:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's an owl saying wh00t! ;) -- Nataly a 14:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to talk about dismantling Esperanza as a club/organization and keeping it as a sort of safehouse for editors. Anyone could participate, and would be subject to the same WP:Civil and other codes of conduct for everyone on wikipedia. This would eliminate the need for some sort of voting-out process for members who do not hold to Esperanza's ideals, and would also eliminate any kind of perceived cliquish mentality. Esperanza would be for everyone who wishes to be here. Thoughts? I'd also like to point out that this wasn't my idea; it was discussed on an archived talk page, but I can't find a direct link right now. -- F a ng Aili talk 18:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I like this idea - Esperanza doesn't do enough looking after people who feel down. -- 9 cds (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Instead of trying to decide right now on a phrase to describe this idea that Fang Ai Li described at the beginning of this section, can we discuss how things would change? How is the "safehouse" idea different from what we have now?
The one thing I know from her description is that we would lose the membership list and leadership structure. In the discussion below, there doesn't seem to have been much support for this part of the idea.
However, I still think we can discuss the "safehouse" part of the idea. How would we provide support and encouragement to "editors who are feeling down"?
What do we do now in this regard? I've looked at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts but I'm unclear on what mechanisms we have for providing support and encouragement to editors who are feeling stressed?
If you look at the discussion in Wikipedia talk:Harmonious editing club#How to “Play” Wikipedia?, there's a good example of an editor who was feeling stressed and who was given some good advice on how to cool down and resolve the problem.
How can we provide a forum for doing this kind of thing more? Part of the problem is the current focus of this Talk Page is the huge discussion on membership and leadership. This might tend to discourage someone who was "feeling down" from inserting a call for help.
Perhaps having a separate page would help.
-- Richard 14:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
ツ 15:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
So, may I summarise for a second? If we were to go ahead with this idea, we would lose the membership list and charter. By extension, we would be getting rid of any leadership (Note: I have no problems giving up my position if such is decided)? Advantages of this would be removing the perception of a bureaucratic mess, as well as simplifying things and removing the cliquey atmosphere. A possible disadvantage I can see is that without leadership, projects often just go stagnant, but I don't know if that'll happen in this case. Overall, I like the idea, and it's a great one to throw into the stew and build upon, if the consensus is to do so. Regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 20:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I rather like Esperanza as it is. As it was rather, before things went sour. Loostening Esperanza would in my opinion make it harder to do what we are supposed to be doing. As it is, our co-ordinated efforts are doing a lot of good. All the bad stuff makes the "headlines", while so much good is going on behind the scenes and out of the "spotlight". Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should become a beaurocracy of innefficiency (um..spelling?), but lets look at the bright side of life. :) Lets try not to get too caught up in discussion (discussion is good, in reasonable amounts) and look at what we are here to do, make wikipedia a better place for its editors, and, by extension (after all, contented cows make better milk :P ) build the encyclopedia. -- Bane s 19:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that a combination of all the possibilities might work out really well for Esperanza. We want this to be a place where people can feel positive about Wikipedia and come and feel welcomed, but at the same time we don't want it to be too exclusive or too bureaucratic and regulated. I think that before we started worrying about members acting up Esperanzian, it was a much more relaxed place; at the same time, it is an issue that we need to deal with. A suggestion, which is still in the developmental phases, kind of mixes all this together and (hopefully) comes out with an idea that could work.
As well as we all discuss things, and are able to work out many problems, I still think it is important to have some type of leadership group for Esperanza. That way, issues that cannot be resolved by simple discussion, or that are getting out of hand, or that need outside intervention can be dealt with. After reading JCarriker's information below, the idea of a looser Assembly seems like a less-bureaucratic way to have Esperanza's leadership. It could involve a somewhat larger group of contributors, but still small enough that the group would be able to work together easily. Also, the idea of electing an Admin General from the Assembly/Council/whatever it were to be called seems like a very good idea; that way, it is assured that the Admin General will have the appropriate experience.
As for dealing with members acting out of an Esperanza fashion, I think there are two things that could help this. One is to modify the proposed Code of Conduct to be more of a "list of values" an Esperanza member should display. This is somewhat similar to the general philosophy of Esperanza, but having the list separate would give more definition to how an Esperanza member should act, while not being too overbearing. If/when we do run into members who are acting way out of Esperanza's values, I think this is where the larger Assembly could come in, and could be responsible for dropping a line to the member in question asking them what the deal is and reminding them of Esperanza's values. By having the Assembly members do this, it provides a definite feeling that something is being done, as well as giving the Assembly members a definite purpose, while (hopefully) not being too bureaucratic.
I haven't actually gotten as far as how to deal with what happens if bringing it up with the member in question does not work. It would be nice to hope that anyone who joins Esperanza would be able to reform their attitude if they are acting out of character, but unfortunately that is likely not true. While actions that would require Esperanza-intervention would likely constitute some of the many other disciplinary actions on Wikipedia, I don't know when/if it would every be appropriate to revoke Esperanza membership. We could always ask them to leave themselves until they feel they can appropriately display the values of Esperanza... but yeah.
Well, that's just my two (possibly three? I did go on for a while) cents, I hope some of it can be useful. -- Nataly a 15:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've seen a lot of good ideas on this page and I'm not quite sure where to respond, so I guess I'll just do it here. Over the last month, and naturally before that, I've been thinking a lot about Esperanza and a possible reform. In my view, Esperanza has a lot, a lot of possibilities and strong points, but also a few problems. One of them is its image: it's seen by new users as 'a cool club' that they want to belong to, while by some admins that have been around for long it's sometimes seen as an obnoxious voting block, a happy but pointless clique. I don't think it's either but I personally have had moments where I found it hard to convince people of the contrary, as I believe we have gotten off track one way or another. I personally have a great fondness for the ideas described above in which Esperanza would no longer have a membership structure. Members are not necessarily needed for Esperanza programs to function properly: becoming a member of a 450+ members organisation by just signing your name is something completely different to committing yourself to one or more of its programs and reaching out to others. Regarding the leadership issues that are proposed in terms of an assembly, and the size of it: I think it's really important to have some kind of leadership, and it should definitely not be just one person. But future assembly members will be ambassadors for Esperanza, and they will - especially if their tasks are like they are described - be living in 'glass houses'. Therefore, I think we should go for quality over quantity, although I'm not quite sure how we should do that in practice :) -- Joanne B 15:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Surely Esperanza is already "for everyone who wishes to be here"? I thought that was the whole point. Deb 20:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I was just thinking, what if we (hear me out here) cut down on sig advertising? This has some potential benefits...
Downside:
This is a major downside, the loss of new users to the project is what I can see happening, but think about that for a moment...Since we have entrance requirements, fewer newbies can sign up anyway. Most wikipedians find out about Esperanza sooner or later, being a well known organization. And userpage advertising is still there. Fewer new users (I love new users, I was one once :) ) who may not know how it all works will sign up. What does everybody think? -- Bane s 20:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of you may not know me, those that do probably know me as “the founder” of Esperanza—a positions that I did not seek and have never really been comfortable with. JoanneB and Banes have both asked me to comment on Esperanza in this capacity, I must however decline to comment as founder of Esperanza, as I do not feel that such an honorific tells you any thing about me or my relationship with Esperanza. I will comment as the wikipedian from whose mind the idea of Esperanza came from, the person who housed Esperanza in his userspace in its infancy, as someone who served as Esperanza's de facto leader and then as the first Administrator General, and the writer of the original charter, as I feel that these experiences, rather than some title, give worth to what I have to say.
There has been much confusion about what the "Esperanza leadership" is, what exactly it is supposed to do, and even why it exists in the first place. Esperanza was founded in part to be a refuge from what was perceived by discouraged users as mob rule—whoever shouts the loudest or can rally the most friends wins the day—a perception Esperanza founding members believed to be based in fact. In fact this tendency is a by product of what makes wikipedia great, and as a result it Esperanza's founding members did consider it desirable or practical to change the wikipedia system. Instead, a small pocket of wikipedia weary users could turn to for help and encouragement and support, should be formed with special attention was given to counteracting mob rule within its space. The leadership was designed to be a both a check and balance on that tendency, minimizing presentism and factionalism by having a guiding body elected by its Esperanza's members, and restrained by a charter and defining principles. In short, Esperanza has a structure, because it is not supposed to mimic one of the very problems found elsewhere on wikipedia that led to the its formation.
Sadly, this founding principle of Esperanza has been neglected—to the fault of no one—for a long time. It was further damaged, when the original charter was rewritten and positions in the leadership where modified, sometimes losing or not making clear their original purpose. I accept responsibility for that, I should have been more proactive and assertive when the second charter was revised and in monitoring the talk page and answering questions about original intent.
It is my hope that the membership of Esperanza will not do away with this principle by dismantling the leadership because there is confusion about its purpose, but rather renew and reform it, reinforcing and specifying its reason for being. It was this system of checks and balance that made Esperanza unique; I would be very discouraged to see Esperanza lose what made it unique.
Please entertain using some of the ideas from the drafts and discussions about the original Esperanza charter, that were never put into effect:
Thank you for reading, and for your thoughts in advance. - JCarriker 23:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Will it be ok If I add color to the page? Anonymous _Anonymous 12:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
After reading everyone's comments, especially Natalya's and JCarriker's, I would like to get a more general consensus on what people think about this. Question/response/commentary is great, but I would like more of a yea or nay here in order to gauge popular opinion. Therefore I offer this propsal--
Esperanza's Council will be expanded into a 9-member Assembly, including the Administrator General. The Council's current 5 members will serve out their terms and the Esperanza community will hold elections for 4 new members.
The Assembly shall:
The Administrator General shall:
(Changed to support). I like this idea, I like it a lot, however I am strongly of the opinion that the leaders should first and foremost set an example for the rest of us to follow. They are Esperanza's ambassadors. I feel that 9 is a little large for this purpose. I feel that a 5, or maybe 7 member board would be ideal. In my opinion, the board needs to consist of model wikipedians, and not neccessarily those with the most votes... -- Bane s 18:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's an OK idea although "not blocked in the last x months" is probably a better idea. (It doesn't matter why you're blocked. If an admin thought you should be blocked, you should be giving your Wikipedia involvement a long, hard think and that includes your membership in Esperanza.
However, it occurs to me that this whole membership/non-membership thing is pretty much unenforceable.
Consider this...
What constitutes membership? Putting your name on the list. How do people really learn that you're a member? By seeing the green E-thingie in your sig. How, pray tell, do we plan to keep people from including the green E-thingie in their sig after we have decided that they should not be considered a member?
The best we can hope to do is create a section or a page that is titled "List of people who are not considered members of Esperanza in good standing". If a complainant comes to us saying "Joe/Jill X is not behaving in an Esperanza-like way", we can respond "OK, we will post Joe/Jill X on the bad-boys-and-girls list and we will try to convince him/her to mend his ways."
What else can we do? You can't block someone for inappropriately putting the green E-thingie in their sig, can you?
-- Richard 20:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like the return of the CoC. If people seriously are still into all this enforcement of behavior thing as a part of Esperanza, may I suggest we return Esperanza to Wikibreak status until we get it out of our system. NoSeptember 20:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
háblame 22:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I couldn't get back when this discussion started, but the drains broke all along the street, and sewer water came out.
Anyway, I think that the original idea might have got lost somewhere. The original idea was to make one of the conditions of joining Esperanza that you can't have been blocked for incivility in the last 3 months. And that idea would only come into play if this became an issue for esperanza, ie users lossing faith in us, which it hasn't yet. I'm sorry if some people thought that the idea was one of punishment, but it wasn't. It was an idea to try and protect our reputation as nice people, an idea that works for, and was stolen from the birthday committe. It isn't meant for current members, and it isn't meant for people who want the sort of Esperanza that Redvers is so, quite rightly, scared of. I'm sorry if anyone felt that way, and I did say originallt that it might be a dumb idea....
And, after all that rambling, I understand that people still might not like the idea (hell, I don't like the idea! It would be so much better if users could get along and just edit this place without edit wars and blocks etc...), and remember, it was just a suggestion.
Th e Halo ( talk) 23:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm convinced that I've been barking up the wrong tree. There seems to be a consensus against having any enforcement of the Code of Conduct. For the record, it's not that I had any particular desire to pillory people. I was just saying that we couldn't do much more than that. Apparently, we don't want to do even that.
And, I'm OK with this "non-enforcement" approach.
I will say that, being a relatively new member of Esperanza, the only experience that I've had with a complainant was about a month ago when someone complained about an Esperanza member on this talk page. A couple of other members got into a mild argument with that person because our charter said that we would kick people out if they didn't behave Esperanza like. I was also involved in that argument. I think there was a bit of "defending one of our own" starting up there. Somebody pointed out that the complainant was not exactly lily-white himself. Thankfully, User:Natalya jumped in and got all of us to chill out. That one action got me to vote for her when she was up for adminship recently.
If we are going down this route, then we should amend the charter post-haste to get rid of the language that suggests that we will throw people out for misbehavior. I think we should retain the Code of Conduct as an ideal for all us mistake-making humans to shoot for and make it clear that it is just an ideal not an enforceable code.
When people complain about members, our reflex action should be to suggest to complainants that we are not the place to resolve their complaints against members. We should further suggest to complainants that they are welcome to call the offending person's attention to the Esperanza Code of Conduct. And, we should try to leave it at that. We should not defend our fellow Esperanza member nor should we investigate and try to see who is more in the right and who is more in the wrong. If we do, we run the risk of becoming judge and jury.
How does that sound?
As has been already expressed, I feel that if we implement having the larger Assembly-Council members approach any users who have been noticed to be acting un-Esperanzian, we should be able to take care of almost all situations that come up. And those that cannot be handled through this, that is why we have the Admin General and the Assembly-Council, and they can take care of any situations on a case-by-case basis, and decide what should be done, whether it be asking the person to leave Esperanza or whatever. That way, the problems will still be dealt with, but will not be detrimental to the entire Esperanza community. -- Nataly a 02:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Echo Natalya and others. I agree that we should not have any enforcement provisions, other than letting our leaders give gentle reminders, if it seems necessary. Otherwise enforcement issues should be left to the appropriate wikipedia venues already available. -- F a ng Aili talk 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The charter speaks to membership requirements, which I think is appropriate. I don't think Esperanza should police/castigate/censure/punish people, (there are perfectly adequate mechanisms such as RfC, mediation, admins blocking, arbcom, community banning, and so forth) but if someone really doesn't meet the requirements, they really should be removed from the member list. We don't need a body or officer or police force to do that either, we just need members to consense around whether it's a legitimate removal. Any member can edit the list, and if in so doing they place the reason why in the edit summary, that should be sufficient. If reverted, it's clear a unanimous consensus would not exist. This might lead to slow moving revert wars I guess but it's better than having a membership removal officer appointment committee or a long drawn out discussion. Thoughts? + + Lar: t/ c 13:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems we've had in the past is quite simply that we have too many elections. Once every 2 months is a little much. So, my current idea is 6 month terms, staggered 3 months so that we would have 4 elections per year (as opposed to the current 6), so that newcomers would never have to wait longer than 3 months to become deeply involved, while still creating longer, more stable terms. I think I saw some comments above supporting only 2 elections per year, which would also be fine (though, as I just mentioned, could mean that a newcomer would have to wait as long as 6 months to get involved with the leadership, which is an eternity in wikitime). I'll try to put it in a simpler list format so it's easier to understand:
Anyway, just an idea. Feel free to shoot it down, I just thought I'd babble for a bit. :oP Also, don't feel obligated to vote on it immediately; talk about it, throw around a few alternate solutions, and try to find a consensus. (Note: I won't be around much in the next week, which is why I'm giving so many instructions. :oP ) Thanks for reading everyone, and I hope we can make lots of improvements to Esperanza. E WS23 ( Leave me a message!) 21:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
One good thing about the tranches (sp?) is that when new Assembly/Council members come in, there will still be some people there who know how things have been running, and can help the new members become accustomed to it. I definitly agree, though, that a smaller number of elections are better. Can we have two tranches of 3 or 4 members (depending on if we decided on a 7- or 9- person Assembly/Council), with elections every 6 months? -- Nataly a 02:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
If I do the math right, with a Assembly of 7 members it would make sense to have 3 elections a year (every four months), with two people in each tranche. With an assembly of 9 members, it would work to have 4 elections a year (every three months), with two people in each tranche. --
Nataly
a 20:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC) JoanneB is very correct and reminded me that I really shouldn't attempt math at all. ;) --
Nataly
a
21:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It is my impression that Esperanza is quite widely considered "child cruft" (I'm not sure if it hasn't been said already). I.e. it is suggested that we're nothing but a bunch of kids, with ESP as a playground/pseudo- MySpace network, and that we're so sweetie-cute for each other that we spend more time here that actually building an encyclopedia (which is all we're here for). If you don't share my impression, then please bang it outta my head with a large trout. If there is a grain of thuth in it however, please advise on how to alleviate this harmful image of Esperanza. Misza 13 T C 10:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think different members emphasize different parts of Esperanza. You have:
I've always focused mostly on a select few projects (since there are many to choose from) and ignored much of the rest of the organization. But each person will have different interests and uses for Esperanza that suits their needs. NoSeptember 10:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Misza, I strongly agree with you as I've gotten the same impression. I described some of that somewhere above, but it does indeed warrant some extra attention here. I think Esperanza will always attract young users, with, understandably, 'young' behaviour. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we should really start to try to turn this playground image around. For Esperanza as a whole not to be seen that way, I think it's most important to stress the value Esperanza could have for building the encyclopedia itself. Perhaps we could start thinking about starting programs directed more explicitly towards that goal. -- Joanne B 11:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The "playground" image is a LIE. Those who claim it is such have no idea what Esperanza is about. (I'm not pointing the finger at you Joanne or Misza. You aren't doing anything wrong.) Esperanza is absolutely helpful towards building an encyclopedia. It stresses the one thing needed to make a cooperative effort like this work. CIVILITY. We've seen the problems caused when overzealous editors/admins (who will go unnamed) try to push their ideas through without any regard for others, than chastise those who disagree with them. So many policies are violated. It's nice to have a place on here where we know that users will be respectful to each other, regardless if they agree with them or not. As cheesy as it sounds, it's a great thing to have, and I'm proud to be a member.
Sometimes, I think Esperanza should be policy itself. Scary, is it not? :-) -- D -Day What up? Am I cool, or what? 12:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think everyone who has commented on this so far pretty much agrees with eachother, and is saying the same thing different ways. I have the vague impression that Esperanza is seen as being somewhat cliquish, and that if an Esperanza member has a RfA then we'd all vote for him/her (I would have to examine that further, but it is not true for my personal voting habits). Perhaps we could have some internal discussion on that. However, if other people think Esperanza is "Childcruft", then those people can, quite frankly, bugger off. We do serve a purpose, and we do a lot more than hang out in IRC or what-have-you. Worrying about what other people might think about us is unproductive at best. -- F a ng Aili talk 13:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I say! Very well said indeed. Hats off to Redvers. -- Bane s 21:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Simply amazing. Can we move that to the front page under a "mission statement" section? -- D -Day What up? Am I cool, or what? 23:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps related to the above discussion, would Esperanza be the right source for some sort of recognition for editors involved in the creation of featured articles? I've created and maintain Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations, but I suspect most folks appearing on it have no clue they're there and this list only recognizes the editor(s) who directly nominate FAs who are often not the same as those who did the bulk of the writing (see Category:Authors of Featured Articles). I could personally add something to each user's talk page on the occasions of their first, second, fifth, etc. FA nomination but this is a far larger task than I'm willing to take on at the moment (or any foreseeable future moment). If this were an Esperanza activity, it might help Esperanza's image as this would be obviously related to the goal of producing high quality articles. And then there's Featured pictures, Featured lists, and Featured portals. -- Rick Block ( talk) 15:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Why exactly is it that Esperanza people put links to their club in their signatures so often? Is it to advertise, gain exposure for the club? It seems to cause confusion with some newbies, and I wonder if the costs outweigh the benefits. - lethe talk + 17:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There's also a page where you can
register if you'd prefer not to have your signature refactored into a non-Esperanza linked version.
brenneman
{L}
00:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Me and another one of the original members of WP:UPH have discussed it and we have come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea if we could get are WikiProject "endorsed" by Esperanza. Like Esperanza as a parent project to this one. As to what WP:UPH is, it is a WikiProject designed to help users who have problems with the HTML coding/markups etc. of Wikipedia and give assistance on how to make thier userpage more appealing to them. I already noticed that Esperanza already had a similar program called the Trading Spaces program and would like to ask Esperanza members how they would feel if they merged the Trading Spaces program into WP:UPH and WP:UPH becomes a extension of the program. In a nutshell, the potential merge would be turning the Trading Spaces program into a WP:UPH subpage and make WP:UPH an Esperanza decendent project. Let me know what you think everybody. Cheers! — The King of Kings 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Over at the evil voting, 16 people voted in support of a continued leadership structure. There was also one oppose and one neutral vote. There seemed to be more support for a seven-member Assembly rather than nine-member.
Is there a mandate to proceed with a seven-member Assembly? Do 16 voices form a consensus? -- Fang Aili talk 21:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
While we're at it, I think we should decide on term lengths. Tranche B's terms are expiring on June 30, so we should get the details down before then.
At Change of term length above, several options were discussed:
If I've missed a major option, please add it.
I prefer:
Hey, after several wikibreaks, I feel like coming back again. Anyone who has been here for a while might remember me, but a lot of you won't. If you want to help me get re-adjusted, add something to my talk page. I will probably be starting a new account, just to start over with a clean slate. Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this. Howabout1 04:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite polls being distinctly evil, from the polls on this page, I see a distinct consensus. I see a consensus for a 7 member assembly in two tranches with terms of 6 months, from which the Administrator General is chosen internally. If a member leaves, the one with the next greatest number of votes from the last election steps in to fill h(is, er) shoes. If the Admin General quits, a new member is selected for that role internally post haste, hereby mollifying the need for another election.
Am I right in saying this? If so, shall I get to work ammending the charter and setting up a new election page? Regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 18:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent, replying to NoSeptember) I agree, I think it would look better without the nation references, otherwise looks fine. (I just changed one word, hopefully that's ok!) Petros471 10:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The charter says the runner up will fill out the remainder of the term. If someone leaves after one month, do we want the replacement to serve a full 5 months, even though there is an election just two months down the road? What if a vacancy in a sooner to expire tranch term occurs a week before a vacancy in a longer to expire tranch term? Then the first runner up would get a short term, and the second runner up would get a long term. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have all replacements' terms expire at the next election? Seats could be filled as we did in the last election, high vote getters filling the 6 month terms, and the lower vote getters filling the 3 month terms. This is also how ArbCom works, with replacement members' terms always expiring at the next election regardless of how long the term was for the original occupant of the seat. NoSeptember 11:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
By popular demand, User:Redvers sent me (by email) an FAQ of Esperanza and I have dilligently put it here. Please read it, comment and make any alterations you deem necessary. I'd also appreciate someone finding somewhere to put a link on the Esperanza homepage. Thanks and regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 11:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
For anyone who hasn't seen the main page, the June 2006 elections page has been created. It is now accepting applicants for the four seats on the council, as well as Election staff. Th e Halo ( talk) 17:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could please stop encouraging the use of extraneous links in signatures. Signatures are saved on every talk page that a user edits, and as such, really need to be as streamlined as possible. Longer sigs cause problems because their Wiki source ends up overwhelming the actual comments in edit mode, thus making it hard to find particular comments by others. If you want to proclaim your membership in Esperanza, put a prominent notice on your userpage; your userpage is obviously linked from your sig, so it still won't be hard to find. But the ubiquituous green e I'm seeing is causing some problems. Thanks for your consideration, User:Cyde 17:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Questions
I thoght esperanza was a place to escape the work of wikipedia and sort of just get some help with problems, and discuss the project, instead with all these awards for work and criteria to join trying to be introduced, it will become an elite group of wikipedians ranked on they're recognized contributions, it won't be a community atall, it will basically be a billboard of bragging. Barnstars are already around, if you can't enough of them, why do you deserve something from this. Philc T E C I 17:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hallo all! I don't know if this is the right place to introduce myself, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm Che Nuevara, an East-Coast American college-aged Wikipedian who, simply put, freakin loves Wikipedia. The concept of the wiki has fascinated me since my first edit (which came before I registered). I'm the creator of WikiProject Buffyverse and am currently writing a piece on Wikitheory.
In short ... I want to help with the wiki and not just the pedia! I'm ready to make the Internet a better place. - Che Nuevara: Join the Revolution 14:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Right, I now feel it is the right time to come off from the WikiBreak. Everyone has had a chance to think things through and calm down from the events of circa 1 month ago. I propose a new, fresh, clean start. I'd like to have a rational discussion about what Esperanza should be (i.e., to best suit its goals) and then use this to create a new, improved, more effective place for stressed Wikipedians to receive help and to build a better sense of community. Kind regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 16:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
W00t! Just w00t. :) Misza 13 T C 17:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's an owl saying wh00t! ;) -- Nataly a 14:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to talk about dismantling Esperanza as a club/organization and keeping it as a sort of safehouse for editors. Anyone could participate, and would be subject to the same WP:Civil and other codes of conduct for everyone on wikipedia. This would eliminate the need for some sort of voting-out process for members who do not hold to Esperanza's ideals, and would also eliminate any kind of perceived cliquish mentality. Esperanza would be for everyone who wishes to be here. Thoughts? I'd also like to point out that this wasn't my idea; it was discussed on an archived talk page, but I can't find a direct link right now. -- F a ng Aili talk 18:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I like this idea - Esperanza doesn't do enough looking after people who feel down. -- 9 cds (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Instead of trying to decide right now on a phrase to describe this idea that Fang Ai Li described at the beginning of this section, can we discuss how things would change? How is the "safehouse" idea different from what we have now?
The one thing I know from her description is that we would lose the membership list and leadership structure. In the discussion below, there doesn't seem to have been much support for this part of the idea.
However, I still think we can discuss the "safehouse" part of the idea. How would we provide support and encouragement to "editors who are feeling down"?
What do we do now in this regard? I've looked at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts but I'm unclear on what mechanisms we have for providing support and encouragement to editors who are feeling stressed?
If you look at the discussion in Wikipedia talk:Harmonious editing club#How to “Play” Wikipedia?, there's a good example of an editor who was feeling stressed and who was given some good advice on how to cool down and resolve the problem.
How can we provide a forum for doing this kind of thing more? Part of the problem is the current focus of this Talk Page is the huge discussion on membership and leadership. This might tend to discourage someone who was "feeling down" from inserting a call for help.
Perhaps having a separate page would help.
-- Richard 14:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
ツ 15:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
So, may I summarise for a second? If we were to go ahead with this idea, we would lose the membership list and charter. By extension, we would be getting rid of any leadership (Note: I have no problems giving up my position if such is decided)? Advantages of this would be removing the perception of a bureaucratic mess, as well as simplifying things and removing the cliquey atmosphere. A possible disadvantage I can see is that without leadership, projects often just go stagnant, but I don't know if that'll happen in this case. Overall, I like the idea, and it's a great one to throw into the stew and build upon, if the consensus is to do so. Regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 20:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I rather like Esperanza as it is. As it was rather, before things went sour. Loostening Esperanza would in my opinion make it harder to do what we are supposed to be doing. As it is, our co-ordinated efforts are doing a lot of good. All the bad stuff makes the "headlines", while so much good is going on behind the scenes and out of the "spotlight". Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should become a beaurocracy of innefficiency (um..spelling?), but lets look at the bright side of life. :) Lets try not to get too caught up in discussion (discussion is good, in reasonable amounts) and look at what we are here to do, make wikipedia a better place for its editors, and, by extension (after all, contented cows make better milk :P ) build the encyclopedia. -- Bane s 19:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that a combination of all the possibilities might work out really well for Esperanza. We want this to be a place where people can feel positive about Wikipedia and come and feel welcomed, but at the same time we don't want it to be too exclusive or too bureaucratic and regulated. I think that before we started worrying about members acting up Esperanzian, it was a much more relaxed place; at the same time, it is an issue that we need to deal with. A suggestion, which is still in the developmental phases, kind of mixes all this together and (hopefully) comes out with an idea that could work.
As well as we all discuss things, and are able to work out many problems, I still think it is important to have some type of leadership group for Esperanza. That way, issues that cannot be resolved by simple discussion, or that are getting out of hand, or that need outside intervention can be dealt with. After reading JCarriker's information below, the idea of a looser Assembly seems like a less-bureaucratic way to have Esperanza's leadership. It could involve a somewhat larger group of contributors, but still small enough that the group would be able to work together easily. Also, the idea of electing an Admin General from the Assembly/Council/whatever it were to be called seems like a very good idea; that way, it is assured that the Admin General will have the appropriate experience.
As for dealing with members acting out of an Esperanza fashion, I think there are two things that could help this. One is to modify the proposed Code of Conduct to be more of a "list of values" an Esperanza member should display. This is somewhat similar to the general philosophy of Esperanza, but having the list separate would give more definition to how an Esperanza member should act, while not being too overbearing. If/when we do run into members who are acting way out of Esperanza's values, I think this is where the larger Assembly could come in, and could be responsible for dropping a line to the member in question asking them what the deal is and reminding them of Esperanza's values. By having the Assembly members do this, it provides a definite feeling that something is being done, as well as giving the Assembly members a definite purpose, while (hopefully) not being too bureaucratic.
I haven't actually gotten as far as how to deal with what happens if bringing it up with the member in question does not work. It would be nice to hope that anyone who joins Esperanza would be able to reform their attitude if they are acting out of character, but unfortunately that is likely not true. While actions that would require Esperanza-intervention would likely constitute some of the many other disciplinary actions on Wikipedia, I don't know when/if it would every be appropriate to revoke Esperanza membership. We could always ask them to leave themselves until they feel they can appropriately display the values of Esperanza... but yeah.
Well, that's just my two (possibly three? I did go on for a while) cents, I hope some of it can be useful. -- Nataly a 15:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've seen a lot of good ideas on this page and I'm not quite sure where to respond, so I guess I'll just do it here. Over the last month, and naturally before that, I've been thinking a lot about Esperanza and a possible reform. In my view, Esperanza has a lot, a lot of possibilities and strong points, but also a few problems. One of them is its image: it's seen by new users as 'a cool club' that they want to belong to, while by some admins that have been around for long it's sometimes seen as an obnoxious voting block, a happy but pointless clique. I don't think it's either but I personally have had moments where I found it hard to convince people of the contrary, as I believe we have gotten off track one way or another. I personally have a great fondness for the ideas described above in which Esperanza would no longer have a membership structure. Members are not necessarily needed for Esperanza programs to function properly: becoming a member of a 450+ members organisation by just signing your name is something completely different to committing yourself to one or more of its programs and reaching out to others. Regarding the leadership issues that are proposed in terms of an assembly, and the size of it: I think it's really important to have some kind of leadership, and it should definitely not be just one person. But future assembly members will be ambassadors for Esperanza, and they will - especially if their tasks are like they are described - be living in 'glass houses'. Therefore, I think we should go for quality over quantity, although I'm not quite sure how we should do that in practice :) -- Joanne B 15:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Surely Esperanza is already "for everyone who wishes to be here"? I thought that was the whole point. Deb 20:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I was just thinking, what if we (hear me out here) cut down on sig advertising? This has some potential benefits...
Downside:
This is a major downside, the loss of new users to the project is what I can see happening, but think about that for a moment...Since we have entrance requirements, fewer newbies can sign up anyway. Most wikipedians find out about Esperanza sooner or later, being a well known organization. And userpage advertising is still there. Fewer new users (I love new users, I was one once :) ) who may not know how it all works will sign up. What does everybody think? -- Bane s 20:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of you may not know me, those that do probably know me as “the founder” of Esperanza—a positions that I did not seek and have never really been comfortable with. JoanneB and Banes have both asked me to comment on Esperanza in this capacity, I must however decline to comment as founder of Esperanza, as I do not feel that such an honorific tells you any thing about me or my relationship with Esperanza. I will comment as the wikipedian from whose mind the idea of Esperanza came from, the person who housed Esperanza in his userspace in its infancy, as someone who served as Esperanza's de facto leader and then as the first Administrator General, and the writer of the original charter, as I feel that these experiences, rather than some title, give worth to what I have to say.
There has been much confusion about what the "Esperanza leadership" is, what exactly it is supposed to do, and even why it exists in the first place. Esperanza was founded in part to be a refuge from what was perceived by discouraged users as mob rule—whoever shouts the loudest or can rally the most friends wins the day—a perception Esperanza founding members believed to be based in fact. In fact this tendency is a by product of what makes wikipedia great, and as a result it Esperanza's founding members did consider it desirable or practical to change the wikipedia system. Instead, a small pocket of wikipedia weary users could turn to for help and encouragement and support, should be formed with special attention was given to counteracting mob rule within its space. The leadership was designed to be a both a check and balance on that tendency, minimizing presentism and factionalism by having a guiding body elected by its Esperanza's members, and restrained by a charter and defining principles. In short, Esperanza has a structure, because it is not supposed to mimic one of the very problems found elsewhere on wikipedia that led to the its formation.
Sadly, this founding principle of Esperanza has been neglected—to the fault of no one—for a long time. It was further damaged, when the original charter was rewritten and positions in the leadership where modified, sometimes losing or not making clear their original purpose. I accept responsibility for that, I should have been more proactive and assertive when the second charter was revised and in monitoring the talk page and answering questions about original intent.
It is my hope that the membership of Esperanza will not do away with this principle by dismantling the leadership because there is confusion about its purpose, but rather renew and reform it, reinforcing and specifying its reason for being. It was this system of checks and balance that made Esperanza unique; I would be very discouraged to see Esperanza lose what made it unique.
Please entertain using some of the ideas from the drafts and discussions about the original Esperanza charter, that were never put into effect:
Thank you for reading, and for your thoughts in advance. - JCarriker 23:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Will it be ok If I add color to the page? Anonymous _Anonymous 12:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
After reading everyone's comments, especially Natalya's and JCarriker's, I would like to get a more general consensus on what people think about this. Question/response/commentary is great, but I would like more of a yea or nay here in order to gauge popular opinion. Therefore I offer this propsal--
Esperanza's Council will be expanded into a 9-member Assembly, including the Administrator General. The Council's current 5 members will serve out their terms and the Esperanza community will hold elections for 4 new members.
The Assembly shall:
The Administrator General shall:
(Changed to support). I like this idea, I like it a lot, however I am strongly of the opinion that the leaders should first and foremost set an example for the rest of us to follow. They are Esperanza's ambassadors. I feel that 9 is a little large for this purpose. I feel that a 5, or maybe 7 member board would be ideal. In my opinion, the board needs to consist of model wikipedians, and not neccessarily those with the most votes... -- Bane s 18:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's an OK idea although "not blocked in the last x months" is probably a better idea. (It doesn't matter why you're blocked. If an admin thought you should be blocked, you should be giving your Wikipedia involvement a long, hard think and that includes your membership in Esperanza.
However, it occurs to me that this whole membership/non-membership thing is pretty much unenforceable.
Consider this...
What constitutes membership? Putting your name on the list. How do people really learn that you're a member? By seeing the green E-thingie in your sig. How, pray tell, do we plan to keep people from including the green E-thingie in their sig after we have decided that they should not be considered a member?
The best we can hope to do is create a section or a page that is titled "List of people who are not considered members of Esperanza in good standing". If a complainant comes to us saying "Joe/Jill X is not behaving in an Esperanza-like way", we can respond "OK, we will post Joe/Jill X on the bad-boys-and-girls list and we will try to convince him/her to mend his ways."
What else can we do? You can't block someone for inappropriately putting the green E-thingie in their sig, can you?
-- Richard 20:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like the return of the CoC. If people seriously are still into all this enforcement of behavior thing as a part of Esperanza, may I suggest we return Esperanza to Wikibreak status until we get it out of our system. NoSeptember 20:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
háblame 22:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I couldn't get back when this discussion started, but the drains broke all along the street, and sewer water came out.
Anyway, I think that the original idea might have got lost somewhere. The original idea was to make one of the conditions of joining Esperanza that you can't have been blocked for incivility in the last 3 months. And that idea would only come into play if this became an issue for esperanza, ie users lossing faith in us, which it hasn't yet. I'm sorry if some people thought that the idea was one of punishment, but it wasn't. It was an idea to try and protect our reputation as nice people, an idea that works for, and was stolen from the birthday committe. It isn't meant for current members, and it isn't meant for people who want the sort of Esperanza that Redvers is so, quite rightly, scared of. I'm sorry if anyone felt that way, and I did say originallt that it might be a dumb idea....
And, after all that rambling, I understand that people still might not like the idea (hell, I don't like the idea! It would be so much better if users could get along and just edit this place without edit wars and blocks etc...), and remember, it was just a suggestion.
Th e Halo ( talk) 23:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'm convinced that I've been barking up the wrong tree. There seems to be a consensus against having any enforcement of the Code of Conduct. For the record, it's not that I had any particular desire to pillory people. I was just saying that we couldn't do much more than that. Apparently, we don't want to do even that.
And, I'm OK with this "non-enforcement" approach.
I will say that, being a relatively new member of Esperanza, the only experience that I've had with a complainant was about a month ago when someone complained about an Esperanza member on this talk page. A couple of other members got into a mild argument with that person because our charter said that we would kick people out if they didn't behave Esperanza like. I was also involved in that argument. I think there was a bit of "defending one of our own" starting up there. Somebody pointed out that the complainant was not exactly lily-white himself. Thankfully, User:Natalya jumped in and got all of us to chill out. That one action got me to vote for her when she was up for adminship recently.
If we are going down this route, then we should amend the charter post-haste to get rid of the language that suggests that we will throw people out for misbehavior. I think we should retain the Code of Conduct as an ideal for all us mistake-making humans to shoot for and make it clear that it is just an ideal not an enforceable code.
When people complain about members, our reflex action should be to suggest to complainants that we are not the place to resolve their complaints against members. We should further suggest to complainants that they are welcome to call the offending person's attention to the Esperanza Code of Conduct. And, we should try to leave it at that. We should not defend our fellow Esperanza member nor should we investigate and try to see who is more in the right and who is more in the wrong. If we do, we run the risk of becoming judge and jury.
How does that sound?
As has been already expressed, I feel that if we implement having the larger Assembly-Council members approach any users who have been noticed to be acting un-Esperanzian, we should be able to take care of almost all situations that come up. And those that cannot be handled through this, that is why we have the Admin General and the Assembly-Council, and they can take care of any situations on a case-by-case basis, and decide what should be done, whether it be asking the person to leave Esperanza or whatever. That way, the problems will still be dealt with, but will not be detrimental to the entire Esperanza community. -- Nataly a 02:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Echo Natalya and others. I agree that we should not have any enforcement provisions, other than letting our leaders give gentle reminders, if it seems necessary. Otherwise enforcement issues should be left to the appropriate wikipedia venues already available. -- F a ng Aili talk 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The charter speaks to membership requirements, which I think is appropriate. I don't think Esperanza should police/castigate/censure/punish people, (there are perfectly adequate mechanisms such as RfC, mediation, admins blocking, arbcom, community banning, and so forth) but if someone really doesn't meet the requirements, they really should be removed from the member list. We don't need a body or officer or police force to do that either, we just need members to consense around whether it's a legitimate removal. Any member can edit the list, and if in so doing they place the reason why in the edit summary, that should be sufficient. If reverted, it's clear a unanimous consensus would not exist. This might lead to slow moving revert wars I guess but it's better than having a membership removal officer appointment committee or a long drawn out discussion. Thoughts? + + Lar: t/ c 13:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems we've had in the past is quite simply that we have too many elections. Once every 2 months is a little much. So, my current idea is 6 month terms, staggered 3 months so that we would have 4 elections per year (as opposed to the current 6), so that newcomers would never have to wait longer than 3 months to become deeply involved, while still creating longer, more stable terms. I think I saw some comments above supporting only 2 elections per year, which would also be fine (though, as I just mentioned, could mean that a newcomer would have to wait as long as 6 months to get involved with the leadership, which is an eternity in wikitime). I'll try to put it in a simpler list format so it's easier to understand:
Anyway, just an idea. Feel free to shoot it down, I just thought I'd babble for a bit. :oP Also, don't feel obligated to vote on it immediately; talk about it, throw around a few alternate solutions, and try to find a consensus. (Note: I won't be around much in the next week, which is why I'm giving so many instructions. :oP ) Thanks for reading everyone, and I hope we can make lots of improvements to Esperanza. E WS23 ( Leave me a message!) 21:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
One good thing about the tranches (sp?) is that when new Assembly/Council members come in, there will still be some people there who know how things have been running, and can help the new members become accustomed to it. I definitly agree, though, that a smaller number of elections are better. Can we have two tranches of 3 or 4 members (depending on if we decided on a 7- or 9- person Assembly/Council), with elections every 6 months? -- Nataly a 02:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
If I do the math right, with a Assembly of 7 members it would make sense to have 3 elections a year (every four months), with two people in each tranche. With an assembly of 9 members, it would work to have 4 elections a year (every three months), with two people in each tranche. --
Nataly
a 20:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC) JoanneB is very correct and reminded me that I really shouldn't attempt math at all. ;) --
Nataly
a
21:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It is my impression that Esperanza is quite widely considered "child cruft" (I'm not sure if it hasn't been said already). I.e. it is suggested that we're nothing but a bunch of kids, with ESP as a playground/pseudo- MySpace network, and that we're so sweetie-cute for each other that we spend more time here that actually building an encyclopedia (which is all we're here for). If you don't share my impression, then please bang it outta my head with a large trout. If there is a grain of thuth in it however, please advise on how to alleviate this harmful image of Esperanza. Misza 13 T C 10:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think different members emphasize different parts of Esperanza. You have:
I've always focused mostly on a select few projects (since there are many to choose from) and ignored much of the rest of the organization. But each person will have different interests and uses for Esperanza that suits their needs. NoSeptember 10:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Misza, I strongly agree with you as I've gotten the same impression. I described some of that somewhere above, but it does indeed warrant some extra attention here. I think Esperanza will always attract young users, with, understandably, 'young' behaviour. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we should really start to try to turn this playground image around. For Esperanza as a whole not to be seen that way, I think it's most important to stress the value Esperanza could have for building the encyclopedia itself. Perhaps we could start thinking about starting programs directed more explicitly towards that goal. -- Joanne B 11:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The "playground" image is a LIE. Those who claim it is such have no idea what Esperanza is about. (I'm not pointing the finger at you Joanne or Misza. You aren't doing anything wrong.) Esperanza is absolutely helpful towards building an encyclopedia. It stresses the one thing needed to make a cooperative effort like this work. CIVILITY. We've seen the problems caused when overzealous editors/admins (who will go unnamed) try to push their ideas through without any regard for others, than chastise those who disagree with them. So many policies are violated. It's nice to have a place on here where we know that users will be respectful to each other, regardless if they agree with them or not. As cheesy as it sounds, it's a great thing to have, and I'm proud to be a member.
Sometimes, I think Esperanza should be policy itself. Scary, is it not? :-) -- D -Day What up? Am I cool, or what? 12:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think everyone who has commented on this so far pretty much agrees with eachother, and is saying the same thing different ways. I have the vague impression that Esperanza is seen as being somewhat cliquish, and that if an Esperanza member has a RfA then we'd all vote for him/her (I would have to examine that further, but it is not true for my personal voting habits). Perhaps we could have some internal discussion on that. However, if other people think Esperanza is "Childcruft", then those people can, quite frankly, bugger off. We do serve a purpose, and we do a lot more than hang out in IRC or what-have-you. Worrying about what other people might think about us is unproductive at best. -- F a ng Aili talk 13:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I say! Very well said indeed. Hats off to Redvers. -- Bane s 21:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Simply amazing. Can we move that to the front page under a "mission statement" section? -- D -Day What up? Am I cool, or what? 23:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps related to the above discussion, would Esperanza be the right source for some sort of recognition for editors involved in the creation of featured articles? I've created and maintain Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by featured article nominations, but I suspect most folks appearing on it have no clue they're there and this list only recognizes the editor(s) who directly nominate FAs who are often not the same as those who did the bulk of the writing (see Category:Authors of Featured Articles). I could personally add something to each user's talk page on the occasions of their first, second, fifth, etc. FA nomination but this is a far larger task than I'm willing to take on at the moment (or any foreseeable future moment). If this were an Esperanza activity, it might help Esperanza's image as this would be obviously related to the goal of producing high quality articles. And then there's Featured pictures, Featured lists, and Featured portals. -- Rick Block ( talk) 15:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Why exactly is it that Esperanza people put links to their club in their signatures so often? Is it to advertise, gain exposure for the club? It seems to cause confusion with some newbies, and I wonder if the costs outweigh the benefits. - lethe talk + 17:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
There's also a page where you can
register if you'd prefer not to have your signature refactored into a non-Esperanza linked version.
brenneman
{L}
00:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Me and another one of the original members of WP:UPH have discussed it and we have come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea if we could get are WikiProject "endorsed" by Esperanza. Like Esperanza as a parent project to this one. As to what WP:UPH is, it is a WikiProject designed to help users who have problems with the HTML coding/markups etc. of Wikipedia and give assistance on how to make thier userpage more appealing to them. I already noticed that Esperanza already had a similar program called the Trading Spaces program and would like to ask Esperanza members how they would feel if they merged the Trading Spaces program into WP:UPH and WP:UPH becomes a extension of the program. In a nutshell, the potential merge would be turning the Trading Spaces program into a WP:UPH subpage and make WP:UPH an Esperanza decendent project. Let me know what you think everybody. Cheers! — The King of Kings 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Over at the evil voting, 16 people voted in support of a continued leadership structure. There was also one oppose and one neutral vote. There seemed to be more support for a seven-member Assembly rather than nine-member.
Is there a mandate to proceed with a seven-member Assembly? Do 16 voices form a consensus? -- Fang Aili talk 21:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
While we're at it, I think we should decide on term lengths. Tranche B's terms are expiring on June 30, so we should get the details down before then.
At Change of term length above, several options were discussed:
If I've missed a major option, please add it.
I prefer:
Hey, after several wikibreaks, I feel like coming back again. Anyone who has been here for a while might remember me, but a lot of you won't. If you want to help me get re-adjusted, add something to my talk page. I will probably be starting a new account, just to start over with a clean slate. Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this. Howabout1 04:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite polls being distinctly evil, from the polls on this page, I see a distinct consensus. I see a consensus for a 7 member assembly in two tranches with terms of 6 months, from which the Administrator General is chosen internally. If a member leaves, the one with the next greatest number of votes from the last election steps in to fill h(is, er) shoes. If the Admin General quits, a new member is selected for that role internally post haste, hereby mollifying the need for another election.
Am I right in saying this? If so, shall I get to work ammending the charter and setting up a new election page? Regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 18:56, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent, replying to NoSeptember) I agree, I think it would look better without the nation references, otherwise looks fine. (I just changed one word, hopefully that's ok!) Petros471 10:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The charter says the runner up will fill out the remainder of the term. If someone leaves after one month, do we want the replacement to serve a full 5 months, even though there is an election just two months down the road? What if a vacancy in a sooner to expire tranch term occurs a week before a vacancy in a longer to expire tranch term? Then the first runner up would get a short term, and the second runner up would get a long term. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have all replacements' terms expire at the next election? Seats could be filled as we did in the last election, high vote getters filling the 6 month terms, and the lower vote getters filling the 3 month terms. This is also how ArbCom works, with replacement members' terms always expiring at the next election regardless of how long the term was for the original occupant of the seat. NoSeptember 11:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
By popular demand, User:Redvers sent me (by email) an FAQ of Esperanza and I have dilligently put it here. Please read it, comment and make any alterations you deem necessary. I'd also appreciate someone finding somewhere to put a link on the Esperanza homepage. Thanks and regards, — Cel es tianpower háblame 11:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
For anyone who hasn't seen the main page, the June 2006 elections page has been created. It is now accepting applicants for the four seats on the council, as well as Election staff. Th e Halo ( talk) 17:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could please stop encouraging the use of extraneous links in signatures. Signatures are saved on every talk page that a user edits, and as such, really need to be as streamlined as possible. Longer sigs cause problems because their Wiki source ends up overwhelming the actual comments in edit mode, thus making it hard to find particular comments by others. If you want to proclaim your membership in Esperanza, put a prominent notice on your userpage; your userpage is obviously linked from your sig, so it still won't be hard to find. But the ubiquituous green e I'm seeing is causing some problems. Thanks for your consideration, User:Cyde 17:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Questions
I thoght esperanza was a place to escape the work of wikipedia and sort of just get some help with problems, and discuss the project, instead with all these awards for work and criteria to join trying to be introduced, it will become an elite group of wikipedians ranked on they're recognized contributions, it won't be a community atall, it will basically be a billboard of bragging. Barnstars are already around, if you can't enough of them, why do you deserve something from this. Philc T E C I 17:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hallo all! I don't know if this is the right place to introduce myself, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm Che Nuevara, an East-Coast American college-aged Wikipedian who, simply put, freakin loves Wikipedia. The concept of the wiki has fascinated me since my first edit (which came before I registered). I'm the creator of WikiProject Buffyverse and am currently writing a piece on Wikitheory.
In short ... I want to help with the wiki and not just the pedia! I'm ready to make the Internet a better place. - Che Nuevara: Join the Revolution 14:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)