![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think somewhere at the top of the page we should describe standardized wording for votes, particularly given that the rather contradictory verbs endorse (the deletion) and oppose (the undeletion request) amount to the same thing. Perhaps stick with, undelete and keep deleted. Marskell 14:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be easier to read through this stuff if we switched to a format similar to that used in RFA. Have three numbered lists, "Endorse", "Relist", and "Overturn". -- RoySmith 18:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
We have tried similar structures in the past. It was a crashing failure. Despite our best intentions, it devolved into a mere vote because the comments lost their sense of chronology. You could not easily tell when a new fact was added to the discussion and whether it changed the tenor of the debate. (Sure, you could attempt to line up every timestamp but that's just not reasonable.) Even the bolding at the front of the comment is, in my opinion, problematic. It locks the writer into an opinion which they must then justify. I prefer a reasoned comment culminating in an opinion. But the current format is at least functioning. The segregated voting you propose never functioned. Rossami (talk) 23:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
(i.e. deleted)
If I trimmed any current threads, a firm spanking is always welcome. -
brenneman
(t)
(c)
06:12, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
It is stated often times here that it is perfectly acceptable to create a new article with substantially different content then the original article that was put through WP:AFD. How then is this handled in the case of articles that have been protected as redirects due to vandalism or recreation. How long should such protection last. Several sources within Wikipedia suggest that Protection is harmful. Yet numerous articles seem to be sitting in permanently protected status. I have established that requests for protection does not apply in this case, but I am having a hard time sourcing any kind of actual procedure for what should be followed. At the time of the initial query I did determine that the article that initially raised my concern had recently gone through deletion review and had not gotten nearly the supermajority required for undeletion, and in fact stalled with a lack of consensus. Following the less then helpful directions which were available to me I relisted the article for review. However, I personally do not believe the original process to be incorrect at all, nor do I beleive the original content of the article in question is at all of value.
The second discussion was quickly closed based on the fact that the article in question had recently gone through deletion review. I was even accused of relisting untill the vote went my way (in spite of the fact that I had no part in the initial review).
My concern is that creation of a substantially different article has been effectively prevented in several cases and there is no apparent mechanism of which I am aware for correcting what protection policy clearly states is not within policy and which other sources show is considered harmful.
Questions then are as follows:
If I am totally of topic or location by all means feel free to direct me in the correct direction.
— Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment It is of note that Undeletion Policy does not address this subject matter at all. — Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment: In response to point one I stand corrected I thought I read that one was. In response to the second, the article has been moved by FreplySpang and I am quite fine with that, as I said I am happy to be redirected. As to point 3 thats more or less what I thought which is what causes the question to be raised at all because as a post from Woohookitty on my talk page indicates RfP is not the correct place either. As near as I can tell there is no correct place. — Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, protected pages are harmful, and you won't find me arguing in support of indefinite protection of anything other than the Main Page. However, repeated recreation of an article as nonsense is no indication other than than one of trolling by the sockpuppets. Independent recreation of a proper article some time after an AfD would be quite different. The sort of information you mention above is probably a prima facie Deletion Review case, however, for a properly written nomination. However, the protecting admin, RickK is no longer with Wikipedia, and protection since 30th May is a very long time indeed, so I think unprotection is reasonable. That would not mandate the recreation of a deleted article, however. That said, the information you give above would be a prima facie Deletion Review case, I think. - Splash talk 16:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to avoid the specific case you mention above and answer only your original theoretical question. When a page has been deleted, it is not normally protected. Protection is only applied in response to abusive re-creations. It is considered an extreme measure. In general, the protection is applied long enough for the trolls/vandals to get tired and go away. On some articles, they lose interest in a few hours. On others, it can take many months.
If, in the meantime, a well-intentioned user wants to create a valid article at the same title, he/she may request reconsideration of the decision to protect the page. In general, you would start by making your case on the article's Talk page. Even though the article page is protected, the Talk page is generally editable. In your argument, you should acknowledge the history of vandalism and clearly articulate your position that this is a new article on a different topic even though it shares the same title. You should be fully prepared to cite your sources and maybe even to mock up a first draft of the article for independent review. Sometimes, that mock-up can be prepared on the article's Talk page but more commonly, it is prepared as a sub-page of your user-space. For example, User:Falerin/foo.
Yes, these are higher hurdles than we normally apply for contribution of a new article. Please remember that someone imposed this restriction in response to a demonstrated pattern of vandalism. We always try to assume good faith but there are limits. By the way, if no admin finds your comment on the deleted article's Talk page in a reasonable period of time, it is perfectly acceptable to go to the List of administrators and pick an admin at random in order to leave a note on his/her Talk page requesting a review.
Hope that helps. Rossami (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I did a spell check from the start and stoped at "Sholom Keller" (this article needs to be done). -- Pat 15:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that " User:David Gerard and User:the Epopt are also accepting requests directly" belongs in here either. Who cares?!? Many reasonable users will undelete when asked, do we list them all? The link provided makes it clear that this is part of a wikipolitical campaign against deletion review. To me, such things properly belong in user space, not on Wikipedia:Deletion review. However I've not removed it myself since there's already been a slight edit skirmish over it. Friday (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Greetings to those of you that work on Deletion Review. I myself have never generally participated here, either when this area was VfU or DRV, nor do I actively watch DRV now. I have a couple things I would like to say. First, I think it would be good to maintain an archive of DRV discussions. At some point a few months ago I became aware that an article that I had speedied had been challenged, and had no access to the debate until someone more active here linked to the discussion. Second, I would prefer if someone would contact the deleting Administrator to let them know a deletion they made had been challenged. In that first case, I had no idea that a deletion I had made had been challenged, and I would have welcomed the review of another user over my deletions. I value any input as to my Administrative actions. I would also have appreciated the opportunity to participate in the deletion review discussion, as the deleting Administrator. As it was, my only clue that a discussion had occured was that I happened to review my Deletion log one day and notice that an article I had deleted had been re-created, and mentioned DRV, but at the time I was not able to find the diff with the discussion in it. I would therefore like to ask that discussions here be archived, and also I would like to invite other users to contact me if any of my deletions are challenged, and ask the participants here to contact and administrators whose deletions are challenged. Best regards, Ëvilphoenix Burn! 03:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I know it is very political matter, and a matter of much present Castro propaganda as he seeks to free his spies jailed in the US. However, this article address a topic that is significant and of current interest. Placing it in open debate would be advantageous and productive El Jigüey 1-1-06
Dear administrator, I wanna write an article on Doosan, but the 'doosan' page informs 'cannot be recreated without a good reason'. But I just want to talk about the Korean top 10~12 company Doosan with other users, and get more information and oppinion of the others. So, please let me create the 'Doosan' page " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doosan". Thank you. Sincerely, truism77
I think it'd be a good idea to encourage people to use the talk pages of Afds for discussion about how to close them, before they're closed. I only mean on Afds that for whatever reasons are non-obvious closers, of course - I've no desire to slap on an extra layer of bureacracy for no good reason. A certain amount of this may go on already, but perhaps we could use more. I'm thinking we could either head off things that may otherwise be destined to show up here, or maybe do better than a simple "no consensus" on tricky things. Sometimes there are verifiability or other concerns over an article that need to be addressed, and Afd does a poor job of addressing them. Sometimes merging is a good answer where otherwise we'd have "no consensus". Maybe we could have a page for listing difficult Afds, to help interested editors find them. What do you all think? Friday (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Can the nominator of an article for re-creation vote inline with everyone else?-- God of War 07:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
A discussion, really? Is that why there is that box stating that if more than 50% of people vote for re-creation then the article is replaced.-- God of War 07:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to propose that we start transcluding the reviews, similar to the way AfDs are done, due to the size of the DR page. It is currently very difficult to wade through the edit history for the page and pick out a single article being discussesd. Turnstep 04:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the DRV page:
It's redundant with Category:User undeletion, and we don't make policy pages refer to individuals. I'd appreciate it if it could be discussed here before being replaced. Please note that "I've replaced it" doesn't constitute "discsussion", so I'll be specific: I'd like to see more than two people comments on this, and consensus to be determined before it gets replaced. brenneman (t) (c) 23:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
You're being unnecessarily bloody about this. It's simply an informative notice. Since I'm going to be performing temporary undeletions, the fact that I'm doing so should be publicised. What else is there to discuss? Please don't repeately remove informative notices under the pretext that they haven't been discussed. By the way, you've managed to misquote arbcom's admonition against you for editing a policy page. Do you still need a lesson in the difference? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 07:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've finally noticed the disputed paragraph. (See latest version.) When was the first version added to the page and when was it's addition discussed? I'm undecided still about whether I think this is a good idea or not for the project but I'm disturbed that it appears to have been snuck onto the page without any discussion. Rossami (talk) 14:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It's just a notice about my decision to treat applications for undeletion as requests to temporarily undelete. I've discussed my decision to do this on wikien-l and there's a lot of positive comment. The notice is solely for informational purposes. As Aaron is being bloody I've attached my notice to a personal comment in a discussion. I take exception to your use of the word "snuck". There is nothing underhanded about my actions. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 14:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I think it would be asking a bit much to expect everyone who ever reads WP:DRV to have first visited my userpage. I provided the notice as a courtesy so that other editors using WP:DRV would realise what was going on (just as we provided the notice about User undeletion a month or two ago). -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 15:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's still there, albeit not in as full a form as the original. I don't mind if someone edits down stuff--editing down is *good*--but removing information is not good. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 15:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Tony on this - it's absurd to debate whether an article should be undeleted when you can't even see the article! That's why I undeleted the child porn series. We should definitely make this standard operating procedure one way or another.
And we should definitely be able to handle requests based on content as well as process requests. AfD usually gets it right but sometimes it doesn't and we should function as an appeals court for those cases, even if the AfD participants did everything by the book.
The only thing that worries me is the method of speedy-deleting something and then trying to muster a 50% majority over here for keeping it deleted on the basis of its content. We have a system with a built in reluctance to delete things - a supermajority is required. If out-of-process speedy deletions are tolerated then we suddenly have a situation where a simple majority is enough to get something deleted, as long as you can enlist an admin to do the dirty work. I don't want to see that. I doubt Tony wants to see it either.
The Child pornography search terms article is a good test case. There's probably a majority in favor of deleting it but I doubt that there is the required supermajority. In my opinion we should undelete in those cases. - Haukur 23:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys! Both of you stop it. My take on the offer was that Tony was trying to be helpful. Having access to the article, or at least the history, during a debate about whether the deletion was proper seems useful to me. If there's a way to word it to leave Tony's name out would that satisfy the concern? But why blast him for basically volunteering to do a lot of scut work, Aaron? And why blast back ("unnecessarily bloody"), Tony? ++ Lar: t/ c 00:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
In reply to Haukur: "If out-of-process speedy deletions are tolerated then we suddenly have a situation where a simple majority is enough to get something deleted, as long as you can enlist an admin to do the dirty work. I don't want to see that. I doubt Tony wants to see it either."
Speedy deletions out of process are reasonably common--examine the deletion log and you'll find plenty. But most of them aren't worth bothering about. The newpages patrollers do a good job and keep a load of crap out of the encyclopedia and nobody minds if they delete an article about "fish suppositories" even if it isn't, strictly speaking, patent nonsense. We trust our admins.
Sometimes I've brought speedies here as a review, but I've never held that the review here was the last word--if a page goes to afd, tfd, etc, then those forums tend to take precedence. It's more like a sanity check, and because at the moment if you stick something on TfD a host of editors who didn't know Wikipedia existed a month ago will jump in and vote to keep it (such votes can safely be ignored; Jimbo wants the political userbox templates gone).
So imagine that someone brings an article for undeletion here. Someone undeletes it, it gets edited while it's discussed on DRV, and some bright spark reckons that the new article would no longer be deletable. So he goes to AfD and he's right, and he article is kept. Net gain to Wikipedia.
Conversely, imagine that someone nominates for undeletion, takes it to AfD, and the article is deleted. If this happens much then we're going to get pretty careful about which articles we undelete during DRV, and maybe we'll switch to history undeletes which cannot be edited and cannot be listed on AfD.
So we have a lot of flexibility here. All we're doing really is giving potentially good material a chance of remaining on Wikipedia, while ensuring that there is enough commonsense in the system to guard against abuse. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The discussion above started a good question but we drifted away from the topic. I'd like to return to that question. Rossami (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Advantages
|
Disadvantages
|
Comments, thoughts and rebuttals?
Rather than restore the article in main space, move it to project space (i.e. Wikipedia:DRV/John Doe) and delete the redirect at the old article title in main space. If someone wants to view it or improve it, let them do it in project space, only return it to main space if we decide to keep it. Delete it in project space once we decide to delete it. It is one thing to make the content available for discussion while that discussion is going on, but it should be kept out of main space while we consider it. NoSeptember talk 15:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Since Tony Sidaway clearly has an absence of any intention to listen to it, as he continues doing as he pleases in the meantime. - Splash talk
My sense of Wikipedia consensus is that there is a general feeling that having articles routinely undeleted temporarily for the duration of an undeletion debate is a good thing (with the usual provisos that we don't undelete obvious tripe, inflammatory stuff, copyrights, attacks, etc). This sense of the consensus comes from observing comments here, in wikien-l where it has also been discussed extensively, and on IRC where I've had unsolicited favorable comments. On this talk page there have been some expressions of concern, even alarm, and I take notice of those, and try to respond to them reasonably on a case-by-case basis. If I see a good case for not temporarily undeleting a page that is up for undeletion, then I won't do it. I think it may take a while for this way of working to become fully accepted, but I urge my fellow wikipedians to try for a moment to set aside their doubts. This is a way to increase transparency and make for a smoother transition back to full article status for wrongly deleted articles, while ensuring that rightly deleted articles are ultimately deleted. Commonsense is the rule here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I've my own idea of what comprises the very small minority. It's not the same as yours. If you're only going to listen to people who agree with you, don't be surprised if you end up coming a cropper. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
We're looking at a continuum of possibilities here:
I think we're clear that 3 is overkill. It's also clear that 1 is right out, because we've got people wandering around restoring stuff that others object to. Thus all we're really talking about is to what degree things should be restored. Is this correct?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
01:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Obvously a lot of good comes from undeletion of articles under discussion. People can see what they're talking about,and where the article in not protected they can even edit it. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think any changes need to be made to DRV. Temporary undeletion is within the purview of administrators, and editing is within the purview of editors. We don't protect articles without good reason, so as long as a temporarily undeleted article isn't being vandalized or edit warred over we don't need to protect. I'd suggest, as a concession to those who are wary about an article appearing in article space while it is still technically deleted, that we adopt the convention that a temporarily undeleted article may be moved into Wikipedia project space for the duration of the discussion, and a protected soft redirect be put in its place. The soft redirect would point to DRV and to the temporarily undeleted article in Project-space.
This shouldn't normally be necessary, however. We're not talking about temporarily undeleting objectional articles, copyright infringements and the like. -- Tony Sidaway 05:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added this instruction to the header template:
Is this okay? It's just like AFD, so editors should still be informed. //
paroxysm
(n)
23:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
So nobody has YET to explain to us what the heck "NTSA" stands for. howch e ng { chat} 16:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am among the wonderers as well, but I came up with some things it isn't:
Hope that helps. Oh, and I don't think the template is a good idea either, as it does tend to suggest DRV is a retread of AfD as it's worded now.++ Lar: t/ c 21:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the more fundamental aspects of DRV is the following sentence: "This page is about process, not about content, although in some cases it may involve reviewing content." I think it is time to discuss whether this is a wise philosophy, or if it is an aspect which ought to be abandoned.
AFD is now so big that people only have time to look at a small fraction of the discussions there, and occasionally AFD might produce some bad deletion results. The conservatism against undeletion makes such results tough to reverse. I believe that if AFD went really haywire and deleted some obviously encyclopedic article such as Final Fantasy (as fancruft), DRV would vote to undelete it, but there are less extreme examples which have been restored, and stayed through the intervention of an admin who decided to break all processes.
SuperOffice for example, where I was so annoyed at the out-of-process undeletion that I blocked the undeleter for disruption. Now the undeletion perhaps made some people "wake up" to provide a majority for undeletion, and at the subsequent AFD debate, the article received a large majority for inclusion.
I do not endorse undeleting things out of process, it is a very noisy way of doing things, it makes adminship seem like an elite club of users empowered to what others may not, and it contributes to rip apart the structure we have for deletion. The structure may be flawed, but without it the deletion process would become an anarchy. However, I do think that a good argument can be made for having a way of overturning poor AFD decisions within process, even though the deletion was within process as well. Abandoning the "This page is about process, not about content" sentence, might be a means to do so. This would mean that "Keep deleted, valid AFD" votes would only be used if someone requested undeletion based on process, and that we would not vote that way if someone said that the AFD consensus got it all wrong.
I do understand some of the problems we might face. For instance, the bar to putting things on DRV would be set much lower, and we might end up needing to reargue the same deletion debate twice, rather than once.
I am interested in hering the views from other people here. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd certainly endorse an expansion of what DRV covers to criticise AfDs that failed to take some substantial point into account (as opposed to saying the participants in an AfD had the facts at their disposal and arrived at the wrong conclusion). Putting that in the DRV description might increase the numbers of cases we see, but I don't think it would make much difference to DRV decisions: it pretty much just documents what is done in any case. --- Charles Stewart (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of two minds. I don't want DRV to turn into the place where you automatically go when your article is overwhelmingly deleted on AFD and you want to complain about it some more (because, after all, your forum is the most important place in the world, and the article had plenty of good content about its history and administrators!). I especially don't want to see us regularly and frivolously overriding AFD consensus; there's already too little participation on AFD, as evidenced by the relistings that are now all the rage, and people will participate even less if an expanded scope for DRV duties make it clear that opinions placed there aren't the ones that really matter. On the other hand, I don't like seeing good content deleted any more than the next person, and, despite being a process wonk, I've never been happy with just looking at the afd discussion when an article is brought here. — Cryptic (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm participating in DRV to understand the process (in a general, practical sense). My current example is:
I'm kind of clear on the idea of DRV examining WP deletion process as opposed to reevaluating the merit of an article, but it all seems rather vague in this example. Perhaps the distinction is ridiculously simple and I'm missing it, but it seems in this case the whole DRV process is being used to fight some other battle that has become content-oriented, and is now focussed on simply "killing this one stub". Can someone with more experience around here characterize or comment on what is happening in this particular instance...? (It may be of interest to others than just me...). (Please note, I have no personal interest whatsoever in this article, I picked it on first DRV nom and joined the review to learn about the process.) Thanks. -- Tsavage 18:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
We already have plenty of abuse-of-process deletion reviews going on at the moment - if we include content reviews in that then this page will be just as horribly cluttered as Afd itself, if not more so Cynical 19:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I find Kim Bruning's question as to whether we might need deletion at all is sort of astounding. Is there really any debate as to whether articles that say stuff like this (an example I just now speedied) should remain:
Anyone who questions whether we need a CSD process (let alone any method of deletion at all) has never checked out newpages. - R. fiend 17:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem with DRV is it is rehashing AFD debates in a new forum, which is not what it's suppsoed to do. Sure, it should look at content to an extent, but it's primary purpose should be to look at whether the AFD or CSD was handled correctly (the second obviously has to look at content). It should look at questions like "was the closer out of line in his/her decision?", examining matters of whether sockpuppets were counted, what percentage can reasonably fall within the realm of "rough consensus", was the article rewritten after most of the votes were cast, or whether there is some greater factor that should override an AFD, such as POV, verifibility, libel, etc. I think this would be best handled by a Supreme Court-like group of editors, who know the processes and rules well, have demonstrated ability to think rationally, can make common sense decisions, and whose opinions can be trusted by a large element of the community. They could also make speedy decisions for clearly bad faith or abusive entries, or ones which might fall under WP:SNOW. Now in order for it to not be partisan, there should be a way of making sure it is not weighted to one side of "inclusionism" or "deletionism", giving each "side" its delegates (or whatever) as well as those who are not seen as being part of either. Right now this process of an AFD debate, followed by a 2nd AFD debate here, which often ends in a reposting (3rd AFD debate), is getting silly. But we do need some process for problematical deletions and AFDs. What do people think of this idea? - R. fiend 17:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Undeletion has always been about content. We must never undelete bad content, no matter how imperfect the process by which it was deleted, and we must always undelete good content, no matter how perfect the process by which it was deleted. Anything else is process for the sake of process and results in a worse encyclopedia. -- Tony Sidaway 05:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a few suggestions on how deletion revies could improve. They are below:
Just suggestions. Please comment. Compu te r Jo e 18:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Normally we're very parsimonious about protection. This comes from the fact that Wikipedia's main strength is that articles can be edited, and historically we have found this beneficial. I'm concerned about what I see as officious protection of articles that have been temporarily undeleted and are being actively edited, in good faith, during the undeletion discussion. For instance, the article Patrick Alexander (cartoonist), about a published cartoonist, was edited by User:DollyD on 30 January after being undeleted during a DRV debate. User:Splash than protected this article and covered it with a template. DollyD's edits had added an external link and two paragraphs about the cartoonist's history; it seems counter-productive to try to prevent such productive edits, which might well have impacted people's decisions on whether this article should have been deleted in the first place.
Now I don't doubt that Splash believed that he was in some way preventing some kind of harm being done to the article when he protected it, but I cannot understand what possible form that harm might have taken. Why was this done? Why are we preventing this wiki from operating on articles during an undeletion discussion in which a good faith undeletion request has been acted on for the purpose of that discussion and an editor is actively improving it? -- Tony Sidaway 23:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
0.0 Page exists | + 1.0 Deleted without XfD | | | + 1.1 Brought to DRV | | | + 1.2 Examination of CSD application == Content review | | | + 1.2.1 CSD applies = keep deleted | | | | | + 1.2.1.1 Substantially different stub may always be re-written | | | + 1.2.2 CSD does not apply | | | + 1.2.2.1 WP:SNOW = keep deleted | | | + 1.2.2.1 !WP:SNOW = restore and XfD | + 2.0 Deleted via XfD | + 2.1 Brought to DRV | + 2.2 Consensus/reasoning ignored in closing | | | + 2.2.1 Restore and XfD | + 2.3 Consensus/reasoning followed in closing | + 2.3.1 New information presented == Content review | + 2.3.1.1 Could have influenced the outcome = restore and XfD | + 2.3.1.2 Would not have influenced the outcome = keep deleted
You sat "consensus is that in almost every instance an article has already had it's shot at being improved" I don't think there is any such consensus. And even if there was, what's the problem with having another go if someone is willing to do it? In other words, this being a wiki, what harm can be done to the article if somebody is willing to give it another go?
And where is this strong support for blanking and protection? I see quite a few people objecting to this very thing. -- Tony Sidaway 00:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not completely against being able to edit it, but I think one thing that it is impertive we keep in mind is that while review for undeletion is underway, the article is still to be considered a deleted article. Its undeletion is purely so non-admins can see what is being voted on (in most cases viewing the AFD is more to the point than viewing the article itself, but it's good to have everyone on a level playing field). As the article is still to be considered deleted, it should generally be treated as such; a request for undeletion is not the same as actual undeletion. This is one reason why it is important that the article not be sent to AFD while it is under deletion review. Improving an article can be a good thing, but it can also be problematical. Some AFDs have confusing results because an article is overhauled midway through AFD process, and many of the earlier votes are on a far inferior version of an article. Sometimes this is why articles are brought to AFD. That's fine, but we don't really need to add another potential such level of confusion here. I don't want to have to introduce Deletion Review Review, because users were voting on what was in the end a very different article. I think it behooves everyone to bear in mind that the article we're looking at is still deleted, and making only history readable is a good way of doing that. The "it's a deleted article" argument is somewhat philiosphical, but no more so than the "it's a wiki" one. - R. fiend 04:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Articles should be editable during deletion review
Articles should not be editable during deletion review
Voting is evil
No policy should be put in place regarding this
I oppose simply because it makes the process too damn confusing. Take Patrick Alexander (cartoonist) for an example. The article was edited during the review, which determined the article should be deleted. Now, speedy deletions allow recreations of previously deleted material to be deleted; does this then mean that deleted content made during a review are speediable? Also, deletion review is about process, not content. Making an article editable makes content part of the discussion, regardless. Perhaps a compromise is to follow the copyright violation procedure, and allow editing to continue at a temp page which will be moved to the article page or deleted after the review ends. I am certain, though, that articles should be uneditable. If we wish to recreate articles, as is our right, with better information, it creates confusion if that information has been deleted, even though that information has not been deleted in process; an admin may delete on speediable grounds which don't exist. Simply put, we shouldn't allow articles to be editable as the editing of such articles is out of process. Hiding talk 11:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What's this? Why are we even discussing this? If there's an article that can be encyclopedically useful, and you can improve it to the point of usefulness. Do so.
At no point and for no reason, under any circumstances whatsoever should that be forbidden. Our single, basic, one, only, final and ultimate objective is to create a high quality encyclopedia.
If it does not lead to a high quality encyclopedia, it should not be a rule.
Kim Bruning 07:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we're getting a bit off topic here, and whether the articles are editable or not, I think thre are a few things it is important we do not forget: first of all, the article is, for all intents and purposes, still a deleted article. It's undeletion has been officially requested, but has not been carried out. The temporary undeletion is so people can view what is being voted on (or discussed; "big difference"). The article should by and large still be treated as a deleted article. This generally means it cannot be edited, but if a good article can come out of it through editing, I admit it could benefit the project. What I think is imperitive (and blatantly obvoius, though there seems to be resistence to this for some reason) is that this temporarily undeleted article is not sent to AFD until the DRV discussion is over.
I'm not overly concerned with this because I don't invision it happening too much, or making much of a difference. But we should remember that the default in such a case is deletion. If I see this being abused, and I see certain admins taking an attitude that "well, all those keep deleted votes were made before some editing was done, so I'm going to just close this as an undelete", I won't stand for it. I don't want temporarily undeleted articles treated like any other existing article out there, because they are not. Hiding's comparison with a criminal on appeal is one I've thought of as well, and is well suited to the situation. - R. fiend 18:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
AfD does get it right, most of the time. But DRV exists because it doesn't always work. Thinking back over the past month alone, and only looking at cases in which I have been personally involved at some point, we've seen Clay Sun Union, Mesh Computers, Colony5, Ludvig Strigeus, Seth Ravin (now known as TomorrowNow), Tally (accounting), SuperOffice, Godcasting, PMS Clan and Blumpkin. One or two of those were even strongly opposed at DRV and required some very fancy footwork to get a second AfD--which in those cases were decisive keeps.
While it's true that articles on DRV are subject to diminishing returns, nobody is forced to edit an article on Wikipedia. If you personally do not want to expend effort in improving an article whose deletion is being challenged DRV, you don't have to. But I'm talking here about articles that at least one person does want to edit. Where'a the "increasing complexity" here? Just undelete the article, slap on a template saying it's been temporarily undeleted, and let editors get on with it. Where the confusion? And when you refer to "disregard for existing consensus" what do you mean? The article has still been deleted and, unless we change our minds, it will be permanently deleted in a few days time. Meanwhile we get to look at the article and see what we can do with it. Of course it will be good! This is why we have wiki in the first place: to improve articles by editing. -- Tony Sidaway 23:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
We're really putting the cart before the horse here. Before we have arguments about editing deleted articles, we should decide if articles requested for undeletion will be temporarily undeleted while the discussion is ongoing. Tony seems to say he's going to do this, though so far it isn't happening in general. If we look at recent undeletion requests, Brian Peppers, Ted's Kiddush, Sin (musician), Template:User pedo, Marianne Curan, Armand Traoré and others have not been undeleted for their DRV discussins, and are therefore uneditable. Are articles to be undeleted for viewing, or not? If "sometimes", then when? Once we answer answer this question we can discuss which method and template we will be using. - R. fiend 17:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In response to R. Fiend, I think we should continue to perform such undeletions on individual initiative, where in our judgement the piece in question is a good faith attempt to create an article (or other encyclopedia element) and a good faith challenge has been made to its deletion, and where there is no plausible suggestion of attack, defamation, copyright infringement or any other good reason to keep the page deleted.
In reply to Hiding, well yes we can always create a new article and undelete the history. But generally speaking those who come to DRV cannot perform a history undelete and see no reason to rewrite an article that shouldn't have been deleted in the first place. -- Tony Sidaway 22:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
To answer your last point first, it's easier to discuss whether something should be permanently undeleted if you can actually see it.
It sounds like in the above you're still suggesting that people should recreate an article that has been deleted. But why should they have to, if it's still in the archive and can be fished out for the purpose of review? I just don't see any reason to erect unnecessary barriers to the temporary resurrection of articles for the purpose of review and improvement, and possible eventual restoration.
It's simply incorrect to state that disputes over article deletion pertain solely to process. We sometimes delete good articles even though the process is followed to the letter. That's because any process is imperfect. We need to be able to take a second look and think "wait a minute, that was a mistake". This is why we have deletion review. Bad articles always should be kept deleted even if their deletion was according to a flaw in following the process, and good articles should always be undeleted even if their deletion was according to a process followed perfectly. Either way, process has very little to do with the decision to undelete. -- Tony Sidaway 19:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The words that you quote are a misinterpretation of our actual undeletion policy. Content issues always play a part in this forum, though the fact is loudly and widely denied by those who wish to ignore our established policy.
You also falsely claim that I " already accept that the article is consensually thought of as bad," Absolutely not. If they're on DRV, it means that the belief that even a rough consensus exists for deletion is subject to challenge. -- Tony Sidaway 02:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay Tony, we seem to be bouncing off the walls at each other here a little with no movement, which isn't the best way forward. Let's try and address the issue at hand. If someone needs to see the article's content to debate it, is it not acceptable to place the template and protect the page. This makes the content viewable. Editing isn't really an issue, is it? Hiding talk 09:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If an article is restored to make it visible to DRV, why not make the DRV link double: one to the current text (editable or protectable as usual) and one diff to the moment of restoration. (There may be special circumstances, like Brian Peppers if that were real, which would make this impractical; but as the basic solution. Septentrionalis 06:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Do we now have to review deletion reviews too? According to my reading of the page: 50% majority to keep deleted, it stays deleted. 75% majority to undelete, it gets undeleted. Anything in between is back to AfD. "List of interesting or unusual place names" got ~60% to undelete/overturn, and is being closed with "stay deleted". There is a clear majority, though not supermajority, that this was wrongly closed on AfD, and now apparently on DR as well. SchmuckyTheCat 03:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt past deletion review decisions be archived the same way afd's are? I see that Teagames was deleted after it was decided to undelete it from deletion review but theres no record of it except if you look through the history (no.1) which takes a long time to do. They should be at separate pages like Wikipedia:Deletion review/Teagames -- Astrokey44| talk 14:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there a way we can move all userbox DRVs to a subpage or something? There's tons of them, they're taking up way too much space, the debates go on and on, and they're all basically the same argument hashed out a hundred times. They're becoming quite disruptive. For a while I thought this was all being settled at a separate discussion on userbox policy, but it appears it's not. Can't we do this somewhere else? - R. fiend 20:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Can we all agree that the above discussion indicate that there is no agreement on changing the common practice? - brenneman {T} {L} 22:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I just a little dim? This process seems Kafkaesque. It's not possible for me to comment intelligently about any of the pages under consideration; they've been deleted. I can't see them; how can I form an opinion?
Clue me in, please? John Reid 07:35, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The article Below is posted on 'Doosan' page in Wikipedia. 'Doosan' means 'Doosan group' here. But when we search 'Doosan group', a message shows like : This page has been deleted, and should not be re-created without a good reason. If you seek information about this subject, you may search for Doosan group in other articles. If you are looking for a definition, you may look up Doosan group in Wiktionary, our sister dictionary project. I think it may make users confused. So please unblock the deletion and make the text concerning 'Doosan group' showed.
When we search 'doosan', the article below shows.
Doosan Group From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Doosan)
The Doosan Group is a large South Korean industrial and construction conglomerate (chaebol). The group owns the Doosan Bears baseball team as well as consumers-oriented businesses such as publishing, food, household goods, magazines and fashion. It also has an advertising subsidiary. In 2005 it won an $850 million contract to build a desalination plant in Saudi Arabia.[1]
History
1896~1946 Doosan began in 1896 as a small store in Baeogae, Seoul, founded by Park Seung-jik. His successor, Park Doo-byung, expanded the store into the Doosan Store in 1946.
1950~1969 Doosan established Oriental Brewery in 1952. In the 1960s, the group set up Doosan construction & Engineering, Doosan Food & Beverage and Doosan Machinery.
1970~1979 After the oil shocks, the group sold off weaker subsidiaries
1980~1995 Doosan started its publishing and advertising businesses.
1996~ The group undertook an intensive business restructuring
2001~2005 Doosan took over Korea Heavy Industries (now Doosan Heavy Industrial & Construction) in 2001 and Daewoo Heavy Industries & Machinery (now Doosan Infracore) in 2005. Doosan Heavy Industrial & Construction products include power plant facilities and desalination plants. Doosan Infracore produces excavators, lift trucks, machine tools, and engines. Truism77 08:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)truism77
I'm incline to do away with this new section and just handle the requests as they arrive in the normal section of the page. It seems like an additional instruction-like thing for no discernable improvement in anything in particular. Maybe add something to the blurb right at the top about it (at the same time as removing the ever-cryptic NTSA thing). I ask here in case the adding editor has reasons they thing it should stay seperate. - Splash talk 04:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, on my original question, I'm persuaded by Meegs's last comment to leave it as a separate section. We can still simply act upon a unPROD wherever it appears, and the new section might provide some people with the pointer that they might need. It seems that we all agree on 'procedure' too: if requested, undelete, unless you think there's no point. In no case is there is a need for a full review — and nor should there be. To stir things up, I think we should extend that to non-G4 speedies contested in good faith: undelete on request unless you don't want to in which case leave it for the next admin, but don't spend 5 days over it. - Splash talk 05:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
And if no one screams in the next eight hours I'm going to shift this to the "page a day" system that some other XfDs use. Of course I'll probably screw it up, so if anyone more experianced than me wants to do it correctly first...
brenneman
{T}
{L}
00:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Bah. Stopped in my tracks indeed. Based upon the only lukewarm support for this idea from someone who is right about things way more often than I am, I'll stop and talk some more. Stick your thoughts below. - brenneman {T} {L} 05:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Daily subpaging (for):
Daily subpaging against:
The second bullet in "against" is my main dislike of daily subpages on low-traffic pages, although I do appreciate their utility. It means having physically to check today's subpage to see what's up (and what's down) and adding them to your watchlist when you edit them. (I forget to do this.) Oh, and The Tags. Since TfD changed to this method, I haven't stopped cursing the cumbersomeness of closing debates there which means lots of section edits and tags confusing themselves when debates are closed in anything other than a top-to-bottom order. - Splash talk 05:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Since most of the objections above are a result of the templates and closing process necessary to make the page-per-day view work, I'd like to recommend a page-per-discussion with all discussions linked directly to this page. In this scenario, the closure is as simple as converting the {{ and }} to [[ and ]] and moving the link down into the "closed discussions" list. In this scenario, you only need to keep this page on your watchlist to know whenever a discussion has been nominated or closed. No fancy logging is required. I know that some people consider page-per-discussion to be overkill but I think it would actually be the least total work. Rossami (talk) 15:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
What about separate subpages for each article? Like this. I had just proposed this at [3] -- Astrokey44| talk 02:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
If we're into ideas, how about showing the last day's posts in red, the two days before in green, and the week before in blue. This way we can instantly see which discussions are live, and what has happened recently. I think most of us have coloured screens these days. Stephen B Streater 07:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to again suggest a monthly "recently concluded" to strike a balance between finding the old discussions and low overhead. It might also be nice if when someone closed something they put the diff into recently concluded? - brenneman {L} 06:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have come across a strange occurance, and I have no idea what I should do about it or where to report it or if it is a known error or what. Here is the situation: a page that used to have content will show up as Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. However, the article cannot be found in the deletion log. Talk pages and history are intact, and no references to deletion. I found this on the unit page. I went to the last version in the history and saved that edit (as if I was reverting) and the page now comes up. Historical-critical method is another page that is showing this problem (I haven't reverted that one yet). However, this page has been suggested for deletion on another talk page, but like I said, there is no deletion vote or log. Any ideas? -- Andrew c 19:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi I deleted by mistake previous articles on "the GraecoTurkish War", can u please restore it because I will soon be accused for that!! thanks. Panos
I just created template:deletion review and category:Deletion review pages. Then I found template:Drv so I speedied template:deletion review and used that instead, linking it to the cat. Then I found comments above that template:drv is a bad thing, although I didn't understand why. So at the minute I'm not madly adding it to every article listed here, but also, I fail to see why it's a bad thing. I actually think it's a good thing. It clarifies what is going on at the page in question and invites discussion. I don't quite follow the argument that a template makes this process akin to afd? Afd is a discussion regarding deleting a page, deletion review is a discussion on that pages deletion and how it conforms to process. In what way does a template change that? If there is no direct pointer to the review then surely there's some hint of appearing to hide such discussion from all concerned. Comments? Hiding talk 12:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just had a problem with Sean Ripple, which has no deleted history and did not have either the AfD or DRV linked form Talk or "What Links Here" for some reason I haven't yet fathomed. It would be useful if all completed DRV cases were archived in summary form to a subpage (as they are at the foot, for a while). One per month or three would be sufficient, I'm sure. Just zis Guy you know? 21:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think if there's any AfD closure brought up for review, the DRV nominator must notify the AfD vote closer of this DRV, or someone else should do it if the DRV nominator forgot to do so. I seem to recall instructions to that effect when this page was still called WP:VFU, but it seems like these instructions have noew been removed. I think it should be restored. I personally consider it analogous to talking about people behind their backs, and not very nice at all. Since this happened to me personally a little while back, I have a natural interest in it (I made a mistake on an AfD closure and would have appreciated the chance to fix it myself rather than have over half a dozen people point out that I made a mistake). -- D e athphoenix ʕ 21:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The idea that a user who has a problem with an AFD close ought first to discuss the matter with the closing admin is a long-standing principle, and was affirmed in the discussions that led to the creation of Wikipedia:Deletion review. However, to my recollection it was only ever hinted at, in writing, in the "Purpose" box found in Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion/Vfu header, which states:
Deletion Review is the process to be used by all editors, including administrators, who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate or a speedy deletion unless:
They are able to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question;
I believe this was written in this way with precisely the concern Rossami states above in mind. I'm not aware of this idea being addressed in the header in in pre-DRV days (see for example [4]). Feel free to add something to the header that states more explicitly that this approach is preferred where possible. — Encephalon 23:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I wouldn`t want to be insulted, but really, I`d rather be inundated with tonnes of messages about incorrect AfD postings than have all these conversations going on elsewhere, without a chance of me seeing it unless I happened to be on DRV looking at other articles. As admins, I think we`re supposed to be able to handle that. -- D e athphoenix ʕ 13:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I decided to be BOLD and made a note on WP:DRV and Wikipedia:Undeletion policy. -- D e athphoenix ʕ 18:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I created a basic message at {{ DRVNote}}. I'd appreciate any feedback (or edits) to this note. -- Deathphoenix ʕ 15:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I was told to list a complaint here. I just made a post about " betty chan" and I don't think it should be deleted, please read the comments on the deleted " betty chan talk page".. The user who deleted my post didnt even click on the links i provided...,, Thanks Snob 23:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
betty chan meets "Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events" because Yew Chung is extremely popular in HK and yew chung became the first school to be granted land from the government to operate a private school... and it's all because of her leadership, well of course her husband as well, he is a politician...a few years ago when yew chung got the land, majour newspapers strongly critized yew chung because her husband was the secretary of the former cheif excetive tung chee wa....... yew chung was on the news for months.. in hk i mean..So i think she deserve to have a BIO on wikipedia.. Snob 01:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I might have missed it, but I can't find any information on when a deletion review should be closed, how to close it, and who can close.
In the meantime, please note that Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Robert_.22Knox.22_Benfer is almost unanimous and the article creator has himself conceded that the article should remain deleted. Time to close the debate I would say. -- kingboyk 20:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I've transcluded a monthly "recently concluded" subpage. This will mean that locating earlier decisions will be easier by "what links here" or Google. The overhead is very low at two extra edit a month: One to create the subpage, one to change the transclusion.
brenneman
{L}
01:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Why not undelete pages to a subpage of the Deletion Review page. This would mean that people new to the discussion (who DRV is meant to attract) can judge the page for themselves. While I understand that DRV is about process, not substance, substance can often become involved, and being able to see the original article would be very helpful. Also, I suggest that we make it mandatory for the person filing for deletion review provide a link to the relevant AfD page (if any). This also would be very helpful. -- David.Mestel 14:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think somewhere at the top of the page we should describe standardized wording for votes, particularly given that the rather contradictory verbs endorse (the deletion) and oppose (the undeletion request) amount to the same thing. Perhaps stick with, undelete and keep deleted. Marskell 14:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be easier to read through this stuff if we switched to a format similar to that used in RFA. Have three numbered lists, "Endorse", "Relist", and "Overturn". -- RoySmith 18:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
We have tried similar structures in the past. It was a crashing failure. Despite our best intentions, it devolved into a mere vote because the comments lost their sense of chronology. You could not easily tell when a new fact was added to the discussion and whether it changed the tenor of the debate. (Sure, you could attempt to line up every timestamp but that's just not reasonable.) Even the bolding at the front of the comment is, in my opinion, problematic. It locks the writer into an opinion which they must then justify. I prefer a reasoned comment culminating in an opinion. But the current format is at least functioning. The segregated voting you propose never functioned. Rossami (talk) 23:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
(i.e. deleted)
If I trimmed any current threads, a firm spanking is always welcome. -
brenneman
(t)
(c)
06:12, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
It is stated often times here that it is perfectly acceptable to create a new article with substantially different content then the original article that was put through WP:AFD. How then is this handled in the case of articles that have been protected as redirects due to vandalism or recreation. How long should such protection last. Several sources within Wikipedia suggest that Protection is harmful. Yet numerous articles seem to be sitting in permanently protected status. I have established that requests for protection does not apply in this case, but I am having a hard time sourcing any kind of actual procedure for what should be followed. At the time of the initial query I did determine that the article that initially raised my concern had recently gone through deletion review and had not gotten nearly the supermajority required for undeletion, and in fact stalled with a lack of consensus. Following the less then helpful directions which were available to me I relisted the article for review. However, I personally do not believe the original process to be incorrect at all, nor do I beleive the original content of the article in question is at all of value.
The second discussion was quickly closed based on the fact that the article in question had recently gone through deletion review. I was even accused of relisting untill the vote went my way (in spite of the fact that I had no part in the initial review).
My concern is that creation of a substantially different article has been effectively prevented in several cases and there is no apparent mechanism of which I am aware for correcting what protection policy clearly states is not within policy and which other sources show is considered harmful.
Questions then are as follows:
If I am totally of topic or location by all means feel free to direct me in the correct direction.
— Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment It is of note that Undeletion Policy does not address this subject matter at all. — Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Comment: In response to point one I stand corrected I thought I read that one was. In response to the second, the article has been moved by FreplySpang and I am quite fine with that, as I said I am happy to be redirected. As to point 3 thats more or less what I thought which is what causes the question to be raised at all because as a post from Woohookitty on my talk page indicates RfP is not the correct place either. As near as I can tell there is no correct place. — Falerin< talk>,< contrib> 15:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, protected pages are harmful, and you won't find me arguing in support of indefinite protection of anything other than the Main Page. However, repeated recreation of an article as nonsense is no indication other than than one of trolling by the sockpuppets. Independent recreation of a proper article some time after an AfD would be quite different. The sort of information you mention above is probably a prima facie Deletion Review case, however, for a properly written nomination. However, the protecting admin, RickK is no longer with Wikipedia, and protection since 30th May is a very long time indeed, so I think unprotection is reasonable. That would not mandate the recreation of a deleted article, however. That said, the information you give above would be a prima facie Deletion Review case, I think. - Splash talk 16:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to avoid the specific case you mention above and answer only your original theoretical question. When a page has been deleted, it is not normally protected. Protection is only applied in response to abusive re-creations. It is considered an extreme measure. In general, the protection is applied long enough for the trolls/vandals to get tired and go away. On some articles, they lose interest in a few hours. On others, it can take many months.
If, in the meantime, a well-intentioned user wants to create a valid article at the same title, he/she may request reconsideration of the decision to protect the page. In general, you would start by making your case on the article's Talk page. Even though the article page is protected, the Talk page is generally editable. In your argument, you should acknowledge the history of vandalism and clearly articulate your position that this is a new article on a different topic even though it shares the same title. You should be fully prepared to cite your sources and maybe even to mock up a first draft of the article for independent review. Sometimes, that mock-up can be prepared on the article's Talk page but more commonly, it is prepared as a sub-page of your user-space. For example, User:Falerin/foo.
Yes, these are higher hurdles than we normally apply for contribution of a new article. Please remember that someone imposed this restriction in response to a demonstrated pattern of vandalism. We always try to assume good faith but there are limits. By the way, if no admin finds your comment on the deleted article's Talk page in a reasonable period of time, it is perfectly acceptable to go to the List of administrators and pick an admin at random in order to leave a note on his/her Talk page requesting a review.
Hope that helps. Rossami (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I did a spell check from the start and stoped at "Sholom Keller" (this article needs to be done). -- Pat 15:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure that " User:David Gerard and User:the Epopt are also accepting requests directly" belongs in here either. Who cares?!? Many reasonable users will undelete when asked, do we list them all? The link provided makes it clear that this is part of a wikipolitical campaign against deletion review. To me, such things properly belong in user space, not on Wikipedia:Deletion review. However I've not removed it myself since there's already been a slight edit skirmish over it. Friday (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Greetings to those of you that work on Deletion Review. I myself have never generally participated here, either when this area was VfU or DRV, nor do I actively watch DRV now. I have a couple things I would like to say. First, I think it would be good to maintain an archive of DRV discussions. At some point a few months ago I became aware that an article that I had speedied had been challenged, and had no access to the debate until someone more active here linked to the discussion. Second, I would prefer if someone would contact the deleting Administrator to let them know a deletion they made had been challenged. In that first case, I had no idea that a deletion I had made had been challenged, and I would have welcomed the review of another user over my deletions. I value any input as to my Administrative actions. I would also have appreciated the opportunity to participate in the deletion review discussion, as the deleting Administrator. As it was, my only clue that a discussion had occured was that I happened to review my Deletion log one day and notice that an article I had deleted had been re-created, and mentioned DRV, but at the time I was not able to find the diff with the discussion in it. I would therefore like to ask that discussions here be archived, and also I would like to invite other users to contact me if any of my deletions are challenged, and ask the participants here to contact and administrators whose deletions are challenged. Best regards, Ëvilphoenix Burn! 03:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I know it is very political matter, and a matter of much present Castro propaganda as he seeks to free his spies jailed in the US. However, this article address a topic that is significant and of current interest. Placing it in open debate would be advantageous and productive El Jigüey 1-1-06
Dear administrator, I wanna write an article on Doosan, but the 'doosan' page informs 'cannot be recreated without a good reason'. But I just want to talk about the Korean top 10~12 company Doosan with other users, and get more information and oppinion of the others. So, please let me create the 'Doosan' page " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doosan". Thank you. Sincerely, truism77
I think it'd be a good idea to encourage people to use the talk pages of Afds for discussion about how to close them, before they're closed. I only mean on Afds that for whatever reasons are non-obvious closers, of course - I've no desire to slap on an extra layer of bureacracy for no good reason. A certain amount of this may go on already, but perhaps we could use more. I'm thinking we could either head off things that may otherwise be destined to show up here, or maybe do better than a simple "no consensus" on tricky things. Sometimes there are verifiability or other concerns over an article that need to be addressed, and Afd does a poor job of addressing them. Sometimes merging is a good answer where otherwise we'd have "no consensus". Maybe we could have a page for listing difficult Afds, to help interested editors find them. What do you all think? Friday (talk) 01:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Can the nominator of an article for re-creation vote inline with everyone else?-- God of War 07:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
A discussion, really? Is that why there is that box stating that if more than 50% of people vote for re-creation then the article is replaced.-- God of War 07:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to propose that we start transcluding the reviews, similar to the way AfDs are done, due to the size of the DR page. It is currently very difficult to wade through the edit history for the page and pick out a single article being discussesd. Turnstep 04:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the DRV page:
It's redundant with Category:User undeletion, and we don't make policy pages refer to individuals. I'd appreciate it if it could be discussed here before being replaced. Please note that "I've replaced it" doesn't constitute "discsussion", so I'll be specific: I'd like to see more than two people comments on this, and consensus to be determined before it gets replaced. brenneman (t) (c) 23:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
You're being unnecessarily bloody about this. It's simply an informative notice. Since I'm going to be performing temporary undeletions, the fact that I'm doing so should be publicised. What else is there to discuss? Please don't repeately remove informative notices under the pretext that they haven't been discussed. By the way, you've managed to misquote arbcom's admonition against you for editing a policy page. Do you still need a lesson in the difference? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 07:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've finally noticed the disputed paragraph. (See latest version.) When was the first version added to the page and when was it's addition discussed? I'm undecided still about whether I think this is a good idea or not for the project but I'm disturbed that it appears to have been snuck onto the page without any discussion. Rossami (talk) 14:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It's just a notice about my decision to treat applications for undeletion as requests to temporarily undelete. I've discussed my decision to do this on wikien-l and there's a lot of positive comment. The notice is solely for informational purposes. As Aaron is being bloody I've attached my notice to a personal comment in a discussion. I take exception to your use of the word "snuck". There is nothing underhanded about my actions. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 14:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Well I think it would be asking a bit much to expect everyone who ever reads WP:DRV to have first visited my userpage. I provided the notice as a courtesy so that other editors using WP:DRV would realise what was going on (just as we provided the notice about User undeletion a month or two ago). -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 15:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's still there, albeit not in as full a form as the original. I don't mind if someone edits down stuff--editing down is *good*--but removing information is not good. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 15:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Tony on this - it's absurd to debate whether an article should be undeleted when you can't even see the article! That's why I undeleted the child porn series. We should definitely make this standard operating procedure one way or another.
And we should definitely be able to handle requests based on content as well as process requests. AfD usually gets it right but sometimes it doesn't and we should function as an appeals court for those cases, even if the AfD participants did everything by the book.
The only thing that worries me is the method of speedy-deleting something and then trying to muster a 50% majority over here for keeping it deleted on the basis of its content. We have a system with a built in reluctance to delete things - a supermajority is required. If out-of-process speedy deletions are tolerated then we suddenly have a situation where a simple majority is enough to get something deleted, as long as you can enlist an admin to do the dirty work. I don't want to see that. I doubt Tony wants to see it either.
The Child pornography search terms article is a good test case. There's probably a majority in favor of deleting it but I doubt that there is the required supermajority. In my opinion we should undelete in those cases. - Haukur 23:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys! Both of you stop it. My take on the offer was that Tony was trying to be helpful. Having access to the article, or at least the history, during a debate about whether the deletion was proper seems useful to me. If there's a way to word it to leave Tony's name out would that satisfy the concern? But why blast him for basically volunteering to do a lot of scut work, Aaron? And why blast back ("unnecessarily bloody"), Tony? ++ Lar: t/ c 00:53, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
In reply to Haukur: "If out-of-process speedy deletions are tolerated then we suddenly have a situation where a simple majority is enough to get something deleted, as long as you can enlist an admin to do the dirty work. I don't want to see that. I doubt Tony wants to see it either."
Speedy deletions out of process are reasonably common--examine the deletion log and you'll find plenty. But most of them aren't worth bothering about. The newpages patrollers do a good job and keep a load of crap out of the encyclopedia and nobody minds if they delete an article about "fish suppositories" even if it isn't, strictly speaking, patent nonsense. We trust our admins.
Sometimes I've brought speedies here as a review, but I've never held that the review here was the last word--if a page goes to afd, tfd, etc, then those forums tend to take precedence. It's more like a sanity check, and because at the moment if you stick something on TfD a host of editors who didn't know Wikipedia existed a month ago will jump in and vote to keep it (such votes can safely be ignored; Jimbo wants the political userbox templates gone).
So imagine that someone brings an article for undeletion here. Someone undeletes it, it gets edited while it's discussed on DRV, and some bright spark reckons that the new article would no longer be deletable. So he goes to AfD and he's right, and he article is kept. Net gain to Wikipedia.
Conversely, imagine that someone nominates for undeletion, takes it to AfD, and the article is deleted. If this happens much then we're going to get pretty careful about which articles we undelete during DRV, and maybe we'll switch to history undeletes which cannot be edited and cannot be listed on AfD.
So we have a lot of flexibility here. All we're doing really is giving potentially good material a chance of remaining on Wikipedia, while ensuring that there is enough commonsense in the system to guard against abuse. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 01:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The discussion above started a good question but we drifted away from the topic. I'd like to return to that question. Rossami (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Advantages
|
Disadvantages
|
Comments, thoughts and rebuttals?
Rather than restore the article in main space, move it to project space (i.e. Wikipedia:DRV/John Doe) and delete the redirect at the old article title in main space. If someone wants to view it or improve it, let them do it in project space, only return it to main space if we decide to keep it. Delete it in project space once we decide to delete it. It is one thing to make the content available for discussion while that discussion is going on, but it should be kept out of main space while we consider it. NoSeptember talk 15:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Since Tony Sidaway clearly has an absence of any intention to listen to it, as he continues doing as he pleases in the meantime. - Splash talk
My sense of Wikipedia consensus is that there is a general feeling that having articles routinely undeleted temporarily for the duration of an undeletion debate is a good thing (with the usual provisos that we don't undelete obvious tripe, inflammatory stuff, copyrights, attacks, etc). This sense of the consensus comes from observing comments here, in wikien-l where it has also been discussed extensively, and on IRC where I've had unsolicited favorable comments. On this talk page there have been some expressions of concern, even alarm, and I take notice of those, and try to respond to them reasonably on a case-by-case basis. If I see a good case for not temporarily undeleting a page that is up for undeletion, then I won't do it. I think it may take a while for this way of working to become fully accepted, but I urge my fellow wikipedians to try for a moment to set aside their doubts. This is a way to increase transparency and make for a smoother transition back to full article status for wrongly deleted articles, while ensuring that rightly deleted articles are ultimately deleted. Commonsense is the rule here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I've my own idea of what comprises the very small minority. It's not the same as yours. If you're only going to listen to people who agree with you, don't be surprised if you end up coming a cropper. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
We're looking at a continuum of possibilities here:
I think we're clear that 3 is overkill. It's also clear that 1 is right out, because we've got people wandering around restoring stuff that others object to. Thus all we're really talking about is to what degree things should be restored. Is this correct?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
01:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Obvously a lot of good comes from undeletion of articles under discussion. People can see what they're talking about,and where the article in not protected they can even edit it. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 13:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think any changes need to be made to DRV. Temporary undeletion is within the purview of administrators, and editing is within the purview of editors. We don't protect articles without good reason, so as long as a temporarily undeleted article isn't being vandalized or edit warred over we don't need to protect. I'd suggest, as a concession to those who are wary about an article appearing in article space while it is still technically deleted, that we adopt the convention that a temporarily undeleted article may be moved into Wikipedia project space for the duration of the discussion, and a protected soft redirect be put in its place. The soft redirect would point to DRV and to the temporarily undeleted article in Project-space.
This shouldn't normally be necessary, however. We're not talking about temporarily undeleting objectional articles, copyright infringements and the like. -- Tony Sidaway 05:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I've added this instruction to the header template:
Is this okay? It's just like AFD, so editors should still be informed. //
paroxysm
(n)
23:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
So nobody has YET to explain to us what the heck "NTSA" stands for. howch e ng { chat} 16:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am among the wonderers as well, but I came up with some things it isn't:
Hope that helps. Oh, and I don't think the template is a good idea either, as it does tend to suggest DRV is a retread of AfD as it's worded now.++ Lar: t/ c 21:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
One of the more fundamental aspects of DRV is the following sentence: "This page is about process, not about content, although in some cases it may involve reviewing content." I think it is time to discuss whether this is a wise philosophy, or if it is an aspect which ought to be abandoned.
AFD is now so big that people only have time to look at a small fraction of the discussions there, and occasionally AFD might produce some bad deletion results. The conservatism against undeletion makes such results tough to reverse. I believe that if AFD went really haywire and deleted some obviously encyclopedic article such as Final Fantasy (as fancruft), DRV would vote to undelete it, but there are less extreme examples which have been restored, and stayed through the intervention of an admin who decided to break all processes.
SuperOffice for example, where I was so annoyed at the out-of-process undeletion that I blocked the undeleter for disruption. Now the undeletion perhaps made some people "wake up" to provide a majority for undeletion, and at the subsequent AFD debate, the article received a large majority for inclusion.
I do not endorse undeleting things out of process, it is a very noisy way of doing things, it makes adminship seem like an elite club of users empowered to what others may not, and it contributes to rip apart the structure we have for deletion. The structure may be flawed, but without it the deletion process would become an anarchy. However, I do think that a good argument can be made for having a way of overturning poor AFD decisions within process, even though the deletion was within process as well. Abandoning the "This page is about process, not about content" sentence, might be a means to do so. This would mean that "Keep deleted, valid AFD" votes would only be used if someone requested undeletion based on process, and that we would not vote that way if someone said that the AFD consensus got it all wrong.
I do understand some of the problems we might face. For instance, the bar to putting things on DRV would be set much lower, and we might end up needing to reargue the same deletion debate twice, rather than once.
I am interested in hering the views from other people here. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd certainly endorse an expansion of what DRV covers to criticise AfDs that failed to take some substantial point into account (as opposed to saying the participants in an AfD had the facts at their disposal and arrived at the wrong conclusion). Putting that in the DRV description might increase the numbers of cases we see, but I don't think it would make much difference to DRV decisions: it pretty much just documents what is done in any case. --- Charles Stewart (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of two minds. I don't want DRV to turn into the place where you automatically go when your article is overwhelmingly deleted on AFD and you want to complain about it some more (because, after all, your forum is the most important place in the world, and the article had plenty of good content about its history and administrators!). I especially don't want to see us regularly and frivolously overriding AFD consensus; there's already too little participation on AFD, as evidenced by the relistings that are now all the rage, and people will participate even less if an expanded scope for DRV duties make it clear that opinions placed there aren't the ones that really matter. On the other hand, I don't like seeing good content deleted any more than the next person, and, despite being a process wonk, I've never been happy with just looking at the afd discussion when an article is brought here. — Cryptic (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm participating in DRV to understand the process (in a general, practical sense). My current example is:
I'm kind of clear on the idea of DRV examining WP deletion process as opposed to reevaluating the merit of an article, but it all seems rather vague in this example. Perhaps the distinction is ridiculously simple and I'm missing it, but it seems in this case the whole DRV process is being used to fight some other battle that has become content-oriented, and is now focussed on simply "killing this one stub". Can someone with more experience around here characterize or comment on what is happening in this particular instance...? (It may be of interest to others than just me...). (Please note, I have no personal interest whatsoever in this article, I picked it on first DRV nom and joined the review to learn about the process.) Thanks. -- Tsavage 18:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
We already have plenty of abuse-of-process deletion reviews going on at the moment - if we include content reviews in that then this page will be just as horribly cluttered as Afd itself, if not more so Cynical 19:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I find Kim Bruning's question as to whether we might need deletion at all is sort of astounding. Is there really any debate as to whether articles that say stuff like this (an example I just now speedied) should remain:
Anyone who questions whether we need a CSD process (let alone any method of deletion at all) has never checked out newpages. - R. fiend 17:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The problem with DRV is it is rehashing AFD debates in a new forum, which is not what it's suppsoed to do. Sure, it should look at content to an extent, but it's primary purpose should be to look at whether the AFD or CSD was handled correctly (the second obviously has to look at content). It should look at questions like "was the closer out of line in his/her decision?", examining matters of whether sockpuppets were counted, what percentage can reasonably fall within the realm of "rough consensus", was the article rewritten after most of the votes were cast, or whether there is some greater factor that should override an AFD, such as POV, verifibility, libel, etc. I think this would be best handled by a Supreme Court-like group of editors, who know the processes and rules well, have demonstrated ability to think rationally, can make common sense decisions, and whose opinions can be trusted by a large element of the community. They could also make speedy decisions for clearly bad faith or abusive entries, or ones which might fall under WP:SNOW. Now in order for it to not be partisan, there should be a way of making sure it is not weighted to one side of "inclusionism" or "deletionism", giving each "side" its delegates (or whatever) as well as those who are not seen as being part of either. Right now this process of an AFD debate, followed by a 2nd AFD debate here, which often ends in a reposting (3rd AFD debate), is getting silly. But we do need some process for problematical deletions and AFDs. What do people think of this idea? - R. fiend 17:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Undeletion has always been about content. We must never undelete bad content, no matter how imperfect the process by which it was deleted, and we must always undelete good content, no matter how perfect the process by which it was deleted. Anything else is process for the sake of process and results in a worse encyclopedia. -- Tony Sidaway 05:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a few suggestions on how deletion revies could improve. They are below:
Just suggestions. Please comment. Compu te r Jo e 18:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Normally we're very parsimonious about protection. This comes from the fact that Wikipedia's main strength is that articles can be edited, and historically we have found this beneficial. I'm concerned about what I see as officious protection of articles that have been temporarily undeleted and are being actively edited, in good faith, during the undeletion discussion. For instance, the article Patrick Alexander (cartoonist), about a published cartoonist, was edited by User:DollyD on 30 January after being undeleted during a DRV debate. User:Splash than protected this article and covered it with a template. DollyD's edits had added an external link and two paragraphs about the cartoonist's history; it seems counter-productive to try to prevent such productive edits, which might well have impacted people's decisions on whether this article should have been deleted in the first place.
Now I don't doubt that Splash believed that he was in some way preventing some kind of harm being done to the article when he protected it, but I cannot understand what possible form that harm might have taken. Why was this done? Why are we preventing this wiki from operating on articles during an undeletion discussion in which a good faith undeletion request has been acted on for the purpose of that discussion and an editor is actively improving it? -- Tony Sidaway 23:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
0.0 Page exists | + 1.0 Deleted without XfD | | | + 1.1 Brought to DRV | | | + 1.2 Examination of CSD application == Content review | | | + 1.2.1 CSD applies = keep deleted | | | | | + 1.2.1.1 Substantially different stub may always be re-written | | | + 1.2.2 CSD does not apply | | | + 1.2.2.1 WP:SNOW = keep deleted | | | + 1.2.2.1 !WP:SNOW = restore and XfD | + 2.0 Deleted via XfD | + 2.1 Brought to DRV | + 2.2 Consensus/reasoning ignored in closing | | | + 2.2.1 Restore and XfD | + 2.3 Consensus/reasoning followed in closing | + 2.3.1 New information presented == Content review | + 2.3.1.1 Could have influenced the outcome = restore and XfD | + 2.3.1.2 Would not have influenced the outcome = keep deleted
You sat "consensus is that in almost every instance an article has already had it's shot at being improved" I don't think there is any such consensus. And even if there was, what's the problem with having another go if someone is willing to do it? In other words, this being a wiki, what harm can be done to the article if somebody is willing to give it another go?
And where is this strong support for blanking and protection? I see quite a few people objecting to this very thing. -- Tony Sidaway 00:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not completely against being able to edit it, but I think one thing that it is impertive we keep in mind is that while review for undeletion is underway, the article is still to be considered a deleted article. Its undeletion is purely so non-admins can see what is being voted on (in most cases viewing the AFD is more to the point than viewing the article itself, but it's good to have everyone on a level playing field). As the article is still to be considered deleted, it should generally be treated as such; a request for undeletion is not the same as actual undeletion. This is one reason why it is important that the article not be sent to AFD while it is under deletion review. Improving an article can be a good thing, but it can also be problematical. Some AFDs have confusing results because an article is overhauled midway through AFD process, and many of the earlier votes are on a far inferior version of an article. Sometimes this is why articles are brought to AFD. That's fine, but we don't really need to add another potential such level of confusion here. I don't want to have to introduce Deletion Review Review, because users were voting on what was in the end a very different article. I think it behooves everyone to bear in mind that the article we're looking at is still deleted, and making only history readable is a good way of doing that. The "it's a deleted article" argument is somewhat philiosphical, but no more so than the "it's a wiki" one. - R. fiend 04:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Articles should be editable during deletion review
Articles should not be editable during deletion review
Voting is evil
No policy should be put in place regarding this
I oppose simply because it makes the process too damn confusing. Take Patrick Alexander (cartoonist) for an example. The article was edited during the review, which determined the article should be deleted. Now, speedy deletions allow recreations of previously deleted material to be deleted; does this then mean that deleted content made during a review are speediable? Also, deletion review is about process, not content. Making an article editable makes content part of the discussion, regardless. Perhaps a compromise is to follow the copyright violation procedure, and allow editing to continue at a temp page which will be moved to the article page or deleted after the review ends. I am certain, though, that articles should be uneditable. If we wish to recreate articles, as is our right, with better information, it creates confusion if that information has been deleted, even though that information has not been deleted in process; an admin may delete on speediable grounds which don't exist. Simply put, we shouldn't allow articles to be editable as the editing of such articles is out of process. Hiding talk 11:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What's this? Why are we even discussing this? If there's an article that can be encyclopedically useful, and you can improve it to the point of usefulness. Do so.
At no point and for no reason, under any circumstances whatsoever should that be forbidden. Our single, basic, one, only, final and ultimate objective is to create a high quality encyclopedia.
If it does not lead to a high quality encyclopedia, it should not be a rule.
Kim Bruning 07:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think we're getting a bit off topic here, and whether the articles are editable or not, I think thre are a few things it is important we do not forget: first of all, the article is, for all intents and purposes, still a deleted article. It's undeletion has been officially requested, but has not been carried out. The temporary undeletion is so people can view what is being voted on (or discussed; "big difference"). The article should by and large still be treated as a deleted article. This generally means it cannot be edited, but if a good article can come out of it through editing, I admit it could benefit the project. What I think is imperitive (and blatantly obvoius, though there seems to be resistence to this for some reason) is that this temporarily undeleted article is not sent to AFD until the DRV discussion is over.
I'm not overly concerned with this because I don't invision it happening too much, or making much of a difference. But we should remember that the default in such a case is deletion. If I see this being abused, and I see certain admins taking an attitude that "well, all those keep deleted votes were made before some editing was done, so I'm going to just close this as an undelete", I won't stand for it. I don't want temporarily undeleted articles treated like any other existing article out there, because they are not. Hiding's comparison with a criminal on appeal is one I've thought of as well, and is well suited to the situation. - R. fiend 18:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
AfD does get it right, most of the time. But DRV exists because it doesn't always work. Thinking back over the past month alone, and only looking at cases in which I have been personally involved at some point, we've seen Clay Sun Union, Mesh Computers, Colony5, Ludvig Strigeus, Seth Ravin (now known as TomorrowNow), Tally (accounting), SuperOffice, Godcasting, PMS Clan and Blumpkin. One or two of those were even strongly opposed at DRV and required some very fancy footwork to get a second AfD--which in those cases were decisive keeps.
While it's true that articles on DRV are subject to diminishing returns, nobody is forced to edit an article on Wikipedia. If you personally do not want to expend effort in improving an article whose deletion is being challenged DRV, you don't have to. But I'm talking here about articles that at least one person does want to edit. Where'a the "increasing complexity" here? Just undelete the article, slap on a template saying it's been temporarily undeleted, and let editors get on with it. Where the confusion? And when you refer to "disregard for existing consensus" what do you mean? The article has still been deleted and, unless we change our minds, it will be permanently deleted in a few days time. Meanwhile we get to look at the article and see what we can do with it. Of course it will be good! This is why we have wiki in the first place: to improve articles by editing. -- Tony Sidaway 23:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
We're really putting the cart before the horse here. Before we have arguments about editing deleted articles, we should decide if articles requested for undeletion will be temporarily undeleted while the discussion is ongoing. Tony seems to say he's going to do this, though so far it isn't happening in general. If we look at recent undeletion requests, Brian Peppers, Ted's Kiddush, Sin (musician), Template:User pedo, Marianne Curan, Armand Traoré and others have not been undeleted for their DRV discussins, and are therefore uneditable. Are articles to be undeleted for viewing, or not? If "sometimes", then when? Once we answer answer this question we can discuss which method and template we will be using. - R. fiend 17:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In response to R. Fiend, I think we should continue to perform such undeletions on individual initiative, where in our judgement the piece in question is a good faith attempt to create an article (or other encyclopedia element) and a good faith challenge has been made to its deletion, and where there is no plausible suggestion of attack, defamation, copyright infringement or any other good reason to keep the page deleted.
In reply to Hiding, well yes we can always create a new article and undelete the history. But generally speaking those who come to DRV cannot perform a history undelete and see no reason to rewrite an article that shouldn't have been deleted in the first place. -- Tony Sidaway 22:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
To answer your last point first, it's easier to discuss whether something should be permanently undeleted if you can actually see it.
It sounds like in the above you're still suggesting that people should recreate an article that has been deleted. But why should they have to, if it's still in the archive and can be fished out for the purpose of review? I just don't see any reason to erect unnecessary barriers to the temporary resurrection of articles for the purpose of review and improvement, and possible eventual restoration.
It's simply incorrect to state that disputes over article deletion pertain solely to process. We sometimes delete good articles even though the process is followed to the letter. That's because any process is imperfect. We need to be able to take a second look and think "wait a minute, that was a mistake". This is why we have deletion review. Bad articles always should be kept deleted even if their deletion was according to a flaw in following the process, and good articles should always be undeleted even if their deletion was according to a process followed perfectly. Either way, process has very little to do with the decision to undelete. -- Tony Sidaway 19:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The words that you quote are a misinterpretation of our actual undeletion policy. Content issues always play a part in this forum, though the fact is loudly and widely denied by those who wish to ignore our established policy.
You also falsely claim that I " already accept that the article is consensually thought of as bad," Absolutely not. If they're on DRV, it means that the belief that even a rough consensus exists for deletion is subject to challenge. -- Tony Sidaway 02:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay Tony, we seem to be bouncing off the walls at each other here a little with no movement, which isn't the best way forward. Let's try and address the issue at hand. If someone needs to see the article's content to debate it, is it not acceptable to place the template and protect the page. This makes the content viewable. Editing isn't really an issue, is it? Hiding talk 09:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
If an article is restored to make it visible to DRV, why not make the DRV link double: one to the current text (editable or protectable as usual) and one diff to the moment of restoration. (There may be special circumstances, like Brian Peppers if that were real, which would make this impractical; but as the basic solution. Septentrionalis 06:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Do we now have to review deletion reviews too? According to my reading of the page: 50% majority to keep deleted, it stays deleted. 75% majority to undelete, it gets undeleted. Anything in between is back to AfD. "List of interesting or unusual place names" got ~60% to undelete/overturn, and is being closed with "stay deleted". There is a clear majority, though not supermajority, that this was wrongly closed on AfD, and now apparently on DR as well. SchmuckyTheCat 03:42, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt past deletion review decisions be archived the same way afd's are? I see that Teagames was deleted after it was decided to undelete it from deletion review but theres no record of it except if you look through the history (no.1) which takes a long time to do. They should be at separate pages like Wikipedia:Deletion review/Teagames -- Astrokey44| talk 14:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there a way we can move all userbox DRVs to a subpage or something? There's tons of them, they're taking up way too much space, the debates go on and on, and they're all basically the same argument hashed out a hundred times. They're becoming quite disruptive. For a while I thought this was all being settled at a separate discussion on userbox policy, but it appears it's not. Can't we do this somewhere else? - R. fiend 20:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Can we all agree that the above discussion indicate that there is no agreement on changing the common practice? - brenneman {T} {L} 22:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Am I just a little dim? This process seems Kafkaesque. It's not possible for me to comment intelligently about any of the pages under consideration; they've been deleted. I can't see them; how can I form an opinion?
Clue me in, please? John Reid 07:35, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The article Below is posted on 'Doosan' page in Wikipedia. 'Doosan' means 'Doosan group' here. But when we search 'Doosan group', a message shows like : This page has been deleted, and should not be re-created without a good reason. If you seek information about this subject, you may search for Doosan group in other articles. If you are looking for a definition, you may look up Doosan group in Wiktionary, our sister dictionary project. I think it may make users confused. So please unblock the deletion and make the text concerning 'Doosan group' showed.
When we search 'doosan', the article below shows.
Doosan Group From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Doosan)
The Doosan Group is a large South Korean industrial and construction conglomerate (chaebol). The group owns the Doosan Bears baseball team as well as consumers-oriented businesses such as publishing, food, household goods, magazines and fashion. It also has an advertising subsidiary. In 2005 it won an $850 million contract to build a desalination plant in Saudi Arabia.[1]
History
1896~1946 Doosan began in 1896 as a small store in Baeogae, Seoul, founded by Park Seung-jik. His successor, Park Doo-byung, expanded the store into the Doosan Store in 1946.
1950~1969 Doosan established Oriental Brewery in 1952. In the 1960s, the group set up Doosan construction & Engineering, Doosan Food & Beverage and Doosan Machinery.
1970~1979 After the oil shocks, the group sold off weaker subsidiaries
1980~1995 Doosan started its publishing and advertising businesses.
1996~ The group undertook an intensive business restructuring
2001~2005 Doosan took over Korea Heavy Industries (now Doosan Heavy Industrial & Construction) in 2001 and Daewoo Heavy Industries & Machinery (now Doosan Infracore) in 2005. Doosan Heavy Industrial & Construction products include power plant facilities and desalination plants. Doosan Infracore produces excavators, lift trucks, machine tools, and engines. Truism77 08:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)truism77
I'm incline to do away with this new section and just handle the requests as they arrive in the normal section of the page. It seems like an additional instruction-like thing for no discernable improvement in anything in particular. Maybe add something to the blurb right at the top about it (at the same time as removing the ever-cryptic NTSA thing). I ask here in case the adding editor has reasons they thing it should stay seperate. - Splash talk 04:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, on my original question, I'm persuaded by Meegs's last comment to leave it as a separate section. We can still simply act upon a unPROD wherever it appears, and the new section might provide some people with the pointer that they might need. It seems that we all agree on 'procedure' too: if requested, undelete, unless you think there's no point. In no case is there is a need for a full review — and nor should there be. To stir things up, I think we should extend that to non-G4 speedies contested in good faith: undelete on request unless you don't want to in which case leave it for the next admin, but don't spend 5 days over it. - Splash talk 05:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
And if no one screams in the next eight hours I'm going to shift this to the "page a day" system that some other XfDs use. Of course I'll probably screw it up, so if anyone more experianced than me wants to do it correctly first...
brenneman
{T}
{L}
00:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Bah. Stopped in my tracks indeed. Based upon the only lukewarm support for this idea from someone who is right about things way more often than I am, I'll stop and talk some more. Stick your thoughts below. - brenneman {T} {L} 05:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Daily subpaging (for):
Daily subpaging against:
The second bullet in "against" is my main dislike of daily subpages on low-traffic pages, although I do appreciate their utility. It means having physically to check today's subpage to see what's up (and what's down) and adding them to your watchlist when you edit them. (I forget to do this.) Oh, and The Tags. Since TfD changed to this method, I haven't stopped cursing the cumbersomeness of closing debates there which means lots of section edits and tags confusing themselves when debates are closed in anything other than a top-to-bottom order. - Splash talk 05:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Since most of the objections above are a result of the templates and closing process necessary to make the page-per-day view work, I'd like to recommend a page-per-discussion with all discussions linked directly to this page. In this scenario, the closure is as simple as converting the {{ and }} to [[ and ]] and moving the link down into the "closed discussions" list. In this scenario, you only need to keep this page on your watchlist to know whenever a discussion has been nominated or closed. No fancy logging is required. I know that some people consider page-per-discussion to be overkill but I think it would actually be the least total work. Rossami (talk) 15:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
What about separate subpages for each article? Like this. I had just proposed this at [3] -- Astrokey44| talk 02:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
If we're into ideas, how about showing the last day's posts in red, the two days before in green, and the week before in blue. This way we can instantly see which discussions are live, and what has happened recently. I think most of us have coloured screens these days. Stephen B Streater 07:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to again suggest a monthly "recently concluded" to strike a balance between finding the old discussions and low overhead. It might also be nice if when someone closed something they put the diff into recently concluded? - brenneman {L} 06:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have come across a strange occurance, and I have no idea what I should do about it or where to report it or if it is a known error or what. Here is the situation: a page that used to have content will show up as Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. However, the article cannot be found in the deletion log. Talk pages and history are intact, and no references to deletion. I found this on the unit page. I went to the last version in the history and saved that edit (as if I was reverting) and the page now comes up. Historical-critical method is another page that is showing this problem (I haven't reverted that one yet). However, this page has been suggested for deletion on another talk page, but like I said, there is no deletion vote or log. Any ideas? -- Andrew c 19:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi I deleted by mistake previous articles on "the GraecoTurkish War", can u please restore it because I will soon be accused for that!! thanks. Panos
I just created template:deletion review and category:Deletion review pages. Then I found template:Drv so I speedied template:deletion review and used that instead, linking it to the cat. Then I found comments above that template:drv is a bad thing, although I didn't understand why. So at the minute I'm not madly adding it to every article listed here, but also, I fail to see why it's a bad thing. I actually think it's a good thing. It clarifies what is going on at the page in question and invites discussion. I don't quite follow the argument that a template makes this process akin to afd? Afd is a discussion regarding deleting a page, deletion review is a discussion on that pages deletion and how it conforms to process. In what way does a template change that? If there is no direct pointer to the review then surely there's some hint of appearing to hide such discussion from all concerned. Comments? Hiding talk 12:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just had a problem with Sean Ripple, which has no deleted history and did not have either the AfD or DRV linked form Talk or "What Links Here" for some reason I haven't yet fathomed. It would be useful if all completed DRV cases were archived in summary form to a subpage (as they are at the foot, for a while). One per month or three would be sufficient, I'm sure. Just zis Guy you know? 21:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I think if there's any AfD closure brought up for review, the DRV nominator must notify the AfD vote closer of this DRV, or someone else should do it if the DRV nominator forgot to do so. I seem to recall instructions to that effect when this page was still called WP:VFU, but it seems like these instructions have noew been removed. I think it should be restored. I personally consider it analogous to talking about people behind their backs, and not very nice at all. Since this happened to me personally a little while back, I have a natural interest in it (I made a mistake on an AfD closure and would have appreciated the chance to fix it myself rather than have over half a dozen people point out that I made a mistake). -- D e athphoenix ʕ 21:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The idea that a user who has a problem with an AFD close ought first to discuss the matter with the closing admin is a long-standing principle, and was affirmed in the discussions that led to the creation of Wikipedia:Deletion review. However, to my recollection it was only ever hinted at, in writing, in the "Purpose" box found in Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion/Vfu header, which states:
Deletion Review is the process to be used by all editors, including administrators, who wish to challenge the outcome of any deletion debate or a speedy deletion unless:
They are able to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question;
I believe this was written in this way with precisely the concern Rossami states above in mind. I'm not aware of this idea being addressed in the header in in pre-DRV days (see for example [4]). Feel free to add something to the header that states more explicitly that this approach is preferred where possible. — Encephalon 23:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I wouldn`t want to be insulted, but really, I`d rather be inundated with tonnes of messages about incorrect AfD postings than have all these conversations going on elsewhere, without a chance of me seeing it unless I happened to be on DRV looking at other articles. As admins, I think we`re supposed to be able to handle that. -- D e athphoenix ʕ 13:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I decided to be BOLD and made a note on WP:DRV and Wikipedia:Undeletion policy. -- D e athphoenix ʕ 18:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I created a basic message at {{ DRVNote}}. I'd appreciate any feedback (or edits) to this note. -- Deathphoenix ʕ 15:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I was told to list a complaint here. I just made a post about " betty chan" and I don't think it should be deleted, please read the comments on the deleted " betty chan talk page".. The user who deleted my post didnt even click on the links i provided...,, Thanks Snob 23:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
betty chan meets "Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events" because Yew Chung is extremely popular in HK and yew chung became the first school to be granted land from the government to operate a private school... and it's all because of her leadership, well of course her husband as well, he is a politician...a few years ago when yew chung got the land, majour newspapers strongly critized yew chung because her husband was the secretary of the former cheif excetive tung chee wa....... yew chung was on the news for months.. in hk i mean..So i think she deserve to have a BIO on wikipedia.. Snob 01:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I might have missed it, but I can't find any information on when a deletion review should be closed, how to close it, and who can close.
In the meantime, please note that Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Robert_.22Knox.22_Benfer is almost unanimous and the article creator has himself conceded that the article should remain deleted. Time to close the debate I would say. -- kingboyk 20:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I've transcluded a monthly "recently concluded" subpage. This will mean that locating earlier decisions will be easier by "what links here" or Google. The overhead is very low at two extra edit a month: One to create the subpage, one to change the transclusion.
brenneman
{L}
01:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Why not undelete pages to a subpage of the Deletion Review page. This would mean that people new to the discussion (who DRV is meant to attract) can judge the page for themselves. While I understand that DRV is about process, not substance, substance can often become involved, and being able to see the original article would be very helpful. Also, I suggest that we make it mandatory for the person filing for deletion review provide a link to the relevant AfD page (if any). This also would be very helpful. -- David.Mestel 14:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)