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There needs to be an explicit policy regarding pages that seem solely to exist to libel people. They represent a sore temptation to some very stupid editors and extremely irresponsible administrators who will protect pages that contain statements that could destroy Wikimedia by providing grounds for a libel suit: protecting a page containing, or even frequently reverts by administrators to a version containing, grounds for a libel suit, will involve the Foundation.
The following was a warning to User:Essjay who should probably be de-adminned for this type of thing. A standard warning would be useful:
As an administrator, restoring and protecting libel by pseudonymous parties (that is, statements that cannot factually be verified to a legal standard of evidence), is a questionable act, one that could cause your administrator status to be revoked, if only so that Wikimedia does not end up taking legal responsibility for your actions. Here is the rationale for that assertion:
1. Pseudonymous parties, unlike those using their real names, and those using transitory IP numbers or obvious troll names, may seem to third parties to be trusted persons acting with colour of support of the community of users as a whole; While not revealing themselves to all users, and hiding their IP numbers from legitimate police or other investigative scrutiny by all parties, they are sometimes permitted (unwisely) to make assertions about persons. This should always be subject to very deep examination, and the more so in talk pages, since those are less controlled, and there is even more risk of presenting the false impression of a trusted person addressing their own community. Accordingly, pseudonyms should have the least rights of any to restore or revert commentary - unlike IP numbers, they can't be tracked down using the law with no administrative help, unlike real names, they can't be sued - leaving Wikimedia to be sued.
2. Repeated reverts by multiple parties, restoring comments to a record from which they may be read from search engines, will in many jurisdictions result in the body that sanctions the multiple parties (Wikimedia itself) becoming legally responsible for not preventing them from repeatedly restoring such comments to view.
3. Protecting pages so as to make further modification impossible is extremely dangerous to the Foundation; It amounts to an exception to the "anyone can edit" rule, and an endorsement of the views that are specifically being protected over all other views tht might replace/modify those.
4. Where there is an alternative wording that does not include any questionable assertions, and that is provided already, hiding *that* from sight to restore the libellous version is dangerous in the extreme.
5. Several persons who are repeatedly named in Wikipedia talk pages, and associated with the activities of anonymous or collective entities, have stated their willlingness to sue Wikimedia. Given that even Jim Wales has expressed public alarm over what has been written about himself in Wikipedia's pages, and declared it inaccurate, any frequent reversion to, or protection of, any version of any page that contains unproven assertions, puts Wikimedia in a terrible situation.
A lot of people would like to own Wikimedia's assets, including its servers and domain names, or even shut the thing down. Permitting pseudonymous parties to post potential libel and permitting people to remain administrators after restoring it to sight, and even protecting such pages, is the fastest way to ensure that Wikimedia is actually owned, in the long run, by the people who care least about Wikipedia's "community": the trolls. If this is what you wish, then by all means, permit pages like User_talk:24ip to stand, and keep reverting and even protecting them ...
For those who think that use of talk pages to propagate libel is not a problem, see the sad history of User_talk:24ip, which makes abundantly clear the danger of NEVER deleting such user pages:
Failure to delete this page and make a policy requiring speedy deletion of such pages, is going to wipe out Wikimedia sooner or later.
I can understand that deleted pages should be redlinks and shouldn't show to spiders, but is there any reason not to let ordinary users see deleted pages that aren't copyvios? Very occasionally I've read an interesting VfD or the like and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. ~~ N ( t/ c) 04:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm wondering whether there's any will to change the deletion policy so that admins can speedy delete clear cases of companies using Wikipedia for self-promotion. I found a page tonight Solms TCD, a company that gets only four unique Google hits, two of which are wikinews pages (now deleted). Yet according to the policy, we'll have to go through a VfD to delete it, which seems like a waste of time. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:03, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
User:JoJan deleted " User:FuriousFreddy", it's that Dutch man. Is this vandalism? 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I suggest adding a reference to the school page discussion into this page section "Problems that don't require deletion". Something like :
Article is about a school
|
See Wikipedia:Schools page. Likely not to be deleted. |
Thoughts ? Gtabary 23:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability proposal is a proposal to explicitly make "notability" a requirement for Wikipedia articles, and to explicitly include "lack of notability" as a reason for deleting articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability proposal and express your view on the proposal. DES (talk) 23:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
From the current text of the project page:
If another solution has been found for some of these pages than deletion, leave them listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion for a short while, so the original poster can see why it wasn't deleted, and what did happen to it. This will prevent reposting of the same item. After the original poster has seen the explanation, or in any case after about a day, the page can be delisted from AFD.
I propose that this be re-worded. The way this reads now, it sounds like following this process would involve actually removing the transclusion from the AfD page, rather than performing a speedy keep, as has often been done. I think that even if a consensus quickly develops for a non-delete solution, the deletion discussion should still remain transcluded on the AfD page, and simply be closed. I propose the following re-wording:
"If a clear consensus for a solution is quickly reached that does not involve formal deletion, a deletion discussion may be closed before the end of the five day discussion period. Examples would include a clear consensus for speedy deletion, where the article is speedy deleted, or a clear consensus for a speedy keep. In these situations, the debate should be closed, but remain transcluded on the AfD page. However, if the proposed solution is disputed, the AfD listing should remain for the full five day period."
Ëvilphoenix Burn! 16:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
This is already current practise (except when things go off the rails). You can probably just make the change. - Splash talk 16:22, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
"Completely idiosyncratic non-topic" has been considered a valid reason for deletion literally for years: for almost two years.
10 November 2003 (inline in the text)
17 October 2004 (neatly boxed as in present format)
It was recently removed, with, as nearly as I can tell, no discussion here. The edit comment says merely "removed extremely POV point."
I'm restoring it, pending discussion and consensus here. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This important part of deletion policy seems to have been removed recently without discussion. It's been part of deletion policy since March 30, 2004 (Theresa Knott compromise version).
Whoever did that, don't do it again. Please don't remove aspects of deletion policy simply because you may personally find them inconvenient. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
brenneman (t) (c) 23:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Huh? I didn't realize this was a content dispute - I thought it was just some random thing kappa inserted as it seems out of place in a policy page. It needs a rewrite at the very least. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 00:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
If you're going to edit war, at least have the common courtesy not to (ab)use the rollback button. Thank you. ~~ N ( t/ c) 00:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
It stays. If Aaron can seriously convince himself that it's drivel, we definitely need it in order to demonstrate that, on the contrary, it's how we run the wiki. It's why we have AfD and require a consensus for deletion, and why bad speedies can be summarily restored. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 09:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
IIDDD is still being refered to as the authoritative pronouncement of deletion policy as at November 8th. It's clear from the reasoned discussion here that this is false. As this phrase appears to be confusing people regarding the nuances, I'm removing it pending further discussion. - brenneman (t) (c) 05:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the "If in doubt, don't delete" guideline.— Who123 17:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone added this after "if in doubt, don't delete":
This doesn't seem to make sense. If the article is not deleted and you're deciding whether to delete it, I can't see how you'd get into this situation by acting on your doubt and failing to delete. The text seems to me to belong in the undeletion policy (where in fact I believe there is a passage saying you take borderline cases to VFU). I also have problems with policy descriptions that elide difference between undeletion and editing. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 12:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"If in doubt, don't delete" is a de facto argument for undeletion. It is indeed akin to saying "if somebody is in doubt, then nobody may delete", or at the very least, "if somebody is in doubt, he may undelete it and take it to AfD to resolve the doubt." You say this is a fallacy, but saying it is doesn't make it one.
You say "it is reasonable to assume that if something was deleted, then the responsible admin was not in doubt about that." But administrators are not god-kings; their actions can always be reversed by another admin. If two admins disagree on a speedy, then perforce there is doubt. Such doubts can be resolved by the normal processes of discussion that take place in AfD. We've done this many times in the past, it works well. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 05:20, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
That's simply incorrect. Unilateral undeletion of out-of-process deletion is part of the undeletion policy and was part of the undeletion policy before I started editing here. That some people are ignorant of its existence or don't agree with it is immaterial. The policy exists and is practised on Wikipedia. Moreover the undeletion policy mandates that AfD should be the place to resolve such matters. I have ensured that this policy is followed in every single case where an undeletion was unchallenged; contrary to your suggestion, I've had overwhelming success with this. Articles wrongly deleted are successfully undeleted by dint of this policy, which in the absence of an effective VFU that acts within the undeletion policy, is often the only way of getting things done. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 15:40, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Currently entries are being deleted because they aren't deemed notable (e.g. AFD: Apollo 9 (webcomic), AFD: Bored and Evil, AFD:Buddies in Big Places). I haven't been able to find anywhere that says accepted Wikipedia policy that says non-notable pages should be deleted (the only time I could even find the word notable was talking about future events). There is a proposal at Wikipedia:Notability proposal but I'm under the impression that until that is accepted as Wikipedia policy, it shouldn't be used when voting on AFDs. So is non-notability currently a valid reason for deleting articles?-- John Lynch 09:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this recent addendum to "If in doubt, don't delete."
This is wrong on several points. Firstly the forum for discussion of deletion is WP:AFD, not WP:VFU. Secondly, undeletion policy provides for unilateral undeletion of clearly out-of-process deletions, and again WP:AFD is the forum to which AFD candidates that were wrongly speedied should be taken. Thirdly a false identificaiton is made between undeletion of wrongful speedy deletions and edit warring. This is unhelpful and misleading. We certainly must used AFD to arrive at consensus, on that I agree, but in order to do so it may be necessary to undelete the article whenever it is wrongly deleted. Taken as a whole, that addendum seems to have been written by someone who is unaware of the deletion policy, the undeletion policy, and the established procedures for dealing with out-of-process deletions. I have removed the incorrect and misleading section. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
History shows that "pointless wheel wars" are quickly curbed by listing on AfD as the undeletion policy specifies. I've been through this many times myself an AfD always quells the war and settles the matter. I've changed the wording to refer to the undeletion policy. Also the reference to wheel wars smells of [WP:BEANS]] so definitely not a good idea. The idea is to stop people warring about their disputed speedies by taking them to AfD, and it works. It is of course categorically wrong to describe DRV as "the (sole) avenue for restoration". Check the undeletion policy. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that is even remotely close to the current state of affairs. "If in doubt, don't delete" is far more relevant now than it was before speedy deletion was adopted. You ask what's the point in saying "go ahead and restore it?" Well obviously the point is to tell people to stop dicking around on DRV, go ahead and restore it, and if necessary list on AfD. Just as the undeletion policy says. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Amazing. You attempt to remove a key bit of policy from the deletion policy, and you falsely accuse an administrator, who uses that key bit of policy, of perverting policy. Please reconsider, you've been told many times by other administrators who have been around far longer than I have, that you don't get to remove "if in doubt, don't delete." It's possibly the most important part of deletion policy. We're here to create an encyclopedia, not to hinder its creation. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a wiki. You've been here a few months now and had time to absorb that fact. If I run into an article that talks about a school, and I can verify the school but it's a nursery adjunct (albeit state registered) to another school, I'll redirect to the article about the school. This is how wikis work. How would deleting the article altogether be better? Someone who wanted to look up the school by the name of the deleted article would find nothing. By this method--involving deletion only when there really is nothing worth knowing about, we create an encyclopedia.
You claim that "If in doubt, don't delete" is anachronistic, yet it's very much a live issue. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Can we come up with some sort of policy for standardizing what the AfD title should be when an article is nominated for a second or later time? Suppose I have a sizable watchlist, but I think there's reason to think someone may try to delete a particular article; I can put a link to what an AfD for that article should be titled on a page in my userspace and then just check that page, and if any link has turned blue then I know to investigate.
However, what happens if it survives that AfD and someone starts another? The new AfD might be called "Articles for Deletion/Foo/2"; "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2"; "Articles for Deletion/Foo (2nd nomination)" or other variants. Even as the first AfD has proved that yes, someone out there thinks it should be deleted and might initiate the process, the lack of any standard naming convention for subsequent AfDs makes it harder to look out for them.
I would propose the +"/2" syntax be the standard; it's easiest to extrapolate (and type) the next in the series and we don't have to worry that there might be a collision between "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2" (a 2nd AfD for the article "Foo") and "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2" (an AfD for the article "Foo 2"). Comments, thoughts? -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The last thing we want to do is to encourage this kind of obsession. I've removed the silly thing. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
You say We all know you don't think things should be deleted. Well obviously you don't, because I do think things should be deleted, where their deletion is supported by the deletion policy. Moreover I don't see why my opinion on this matter matters here.
What I object to here is a pointless bit of nitpicking over whether an article has been listed for the first time, the second time, or whatever. How about a third AfD template, a fourth AfD template?
It's all way too obsessive. If you're worried about an article being deleted (or not deleted) for a second time, pay a bit of attention to that article. it's harmful because it feeds the obsession. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added this to the intro. It's a pivotal point of deletion policy and deserves far more prominence.
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I certainly agree that we shouldn't delete anything unless we're sure it should be deleted. That's what our deletion policy is about. On Aaron's comment about AfD, I'd remind him that hundreds of school articles have been nominated for deletion over the past year, and a tiny proportion have been deleted. There just isn't a consensus for deletion of those articles. If the people who listed those articles for deletion had either edited them to make them more consequential, or redirected them to an article on, say, the school district, there would have been a lot less sound and fury, and the result would have been pretty much the same. Deletion is a sledgehammer, to be used when an article is irretrievably biased, a personal attack, unverifiable, or composed solely of copyright infringements. There probably is no reason to use deletion in any other circumstances. We probably made a big mistake in not spelling this out in the early days. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Based on recent edits, it sure looks like it'd be a good idea for people to get consensus on the talk page before making changes here. Friday (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I see little plausible justification for the implication that this is some sort of historical note. Please explain this change in particular. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
There is currently some controversy about the meaning and relevance of this phrase, and its suitability for inclusion on WP:DRV and WP:DEL. The controversy has manifested as an edit war on those pages (see for example [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]), and a short block on two editors [7]. I believe it might be helpful, in efforts to resolve the dispute, to look at the phrase's history and intent.
Tony Sidaway, SimonP and others are correct when they say that the phrase has been with WP for a long time. Its earliest use that I know of was in the document that eventually became WP:DEL. The original page can still be seen; it dates from February 25 2002, but was actually written in November 2001 in the old software.
That page was an instruction to administrators. In the old UseModWiki software, page deletions were qualitatively different from page deletions in our current system: once a page was deleted, it was completely removed, such that it was "impossible to restore from within the system." The present day equivalent is removal of the page history from the database by a developer.
This permanent quality of deletions made it imperative that any deletion decision was made with particular care—there was no such thing as "undeletion" at the time. The rules were a reminder to anyone about to delete a page what was generally expected of them; to wit, these were "some rules that those tasked with permanently deleting pages can generally be expected to follow in making the decision to delete or not."
On September 20 2003, more than two years ago, old time user Cimon avaro moved the instructions to a very appropriate, newly created page, Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators. You can see the original here.
The above history makes the meaning of the phrase in question crystal clear. It is an instruction to administrators (ie. to people who can delete pages) to be careful when commiting that final act, and to desist if they cannot make up their minds about whether they should delete a page. The phrase is an axiom for individual administrators to bear in mind when they make their delete decisions. The Deletion guidelines for administrators also provides other helpful tips to administrators. For example:
These are all sensible rules of thumb for administrators to keep in mind as they consider their closes; "if in doubt, don't delete" is one among them.
I have noticed that this phrase appears to be often misused these days. The clearest misuse happens when someone uses it to proclaim that another admin's close was invalid, because it was closed at a rough consensus standard that they believe to be unacceptable. This is often expressed with something like: "You should not have deleted that page. It was too close; two-thirds isn't a consensus. Remember 'if in doubt, don't delete.'"
This is the sort of thing that makes you go "Whaa—?". It's a misunderstanding of the axiom. IIDDD is not intended to call into question deletion decisions made in perfect accordance with the criteria in WP:DEL and WP:CON by an administrator who had no doubts as to the validity of the closure.
Another misuse of the axiom is the idea contained in the following: "You should not have deleted it because there was doubt. The very fact that I'm disagreeing with you proves that there is doubt. Remember 'if in doubt, don't delete.'" This is incorrect, for what should be very obvious reasons.
Tony Sidaway has recently made several edits to the VFU header page, in which he characterizes IIDDD in an interesting way. He writes,
and
It is unclear to me how an instruction to administrators to be careful when performing deletions became "the chief precept" of WP:DEL. The deletion policy is a document that specifies what things within WP may be removed. Where the main namespace is concerned¹, what may be removed are
These are the bases of article space policy and the fountainhead of deletion policy—they are what the deletion policy was written to enforce.
The axiom IIDDD on the other hand is merely a simple reminder to admins who're on the job not to be trigger happy. It is most certainly not "the chief precept" of deletion policy, just as "don't delete pages you nominate for deletion" is not the chief precept of deletion policy, nor any other of those little, if helpful, reminders given to admins who're working on deletions. The idea that IIDDD makes WP permissive is also misleading, I believe. It neither makes it more permissive nor less. What goes and stays on WP is determined by WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:NOT, and WP:Copyrights. All else are secondary, and all else are derivations. In this editor's humble opinion, at any rate.
Perhaps the intent is to emphasize the open nature of the wiki. This is a fair point, but:
This brings us to the question that started all this. Should "if in doubt, don't delete" be placed in WP:DEL and WP:DRV? This seems to be the source of much dispute, but that is only because IIDDD is misunderstood. Personally I will not strongly object with listing the admin reminders on the deletion page, because I know what they are and what they were written to for, and putting them there will not make me treat the article-space policy any less seriously. However, I do see the point that they're out-of-place. WP:DEL is primarily written for users and editors of the encyclopedia, not sysops. Placing IIDDD in such a page, in the way it has been placed there now, does sound odd—because non-sysops can't delete, whether they are in doubt or not. IIDDD is directed at sysops, the folks who do the deleting. The correct place for it is Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators, where it fits perfectly and where it has been placed since the inception of that page. (Yes, it was also in the page that eventually became WP:DEL, but that was when that page was in fact directed at admins. You can read it [http:// here.)
What about WP:DRV? The same applies. Wherever the thing is placed however, I would ask that it is not misrepresented, or written in a way that gives a misleading account of article space and deletion policy on Wikipedia. If I've been wrong in any of the above, do correct me—it will not be the first time, nor the last :) I do believe that this issue needn't divide us as it has. Kind regards enceph alon 20:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Note
Encephalon is right to state that the principle was first found in the earliest versions of WP:DEL; he even admits that it survived the transition to the new software. The rest of his piece appears to be an attempt to explain this away by claiming that the reason for not deleting an article about which some doubt existed had to do with older software.
Let's assume that part of the original reason was that the software would completely lose all content that was deleted. Does this then justify abandoning the principle? In other words, are the occasions when, if doubt exists over whether a piece should be deleted, we should delete it anyway?
Encephalon appeals to Verifiability. Unverifiable statements of fact must be removed from articles, and completely unverifiable articles must be deleted, of that there is no doubt.
Encephalon appeals to copyright. Copyright infringements are deleted under the copyright policy, which as a Key policy overrides the deletion policy and all others. We delete copyright infringements.
Encephalon appeals to No original research. Original research is removed from articles, and articles based solely on original research are deleted.
Encephalon appeals to What Wikipedia is not. This document is sometimes persuasive in deletion debates and is given in the deletion policy as an umbrella for a host of reasons for deletion.
Deletion policy is permissive, I think we can all agree on that. If an article doesn't fall under those principles then we don't delete it.
There are gray areas. "If in doubt, don't delete" informs our conduct in deciding whether to delete. The question of whether there is a consensus really boils down to whether the closing administrator is convinced by the deletion debate. If there is significant reasoned opposition then there isn't a consensus--if in doubt, etc.
Nowadays we permit administrators to delete some classes of article summarily, and well over 1,000 such deletions are carried out every day. But there are safeguards on this, as it's a very controversial. An administrator can undelete an obvious "out of process" speedy deletion, and if it's still a deletion candidate under the deletion policy it should be listed on AfD. If in doubt, don't delete, again.
If an administrator disagrees over an undeletion, what's to be done? AfD, obviously. If in doubt, don't delete. Why would an administrator want to delete an article that another administrator, in good faith, has undeleted? If in doubt, don't delete. List it on AfD, or Copyright problems.
The principle is simply stated and informs every aspect of our undeletion policy and our deletion policy. That is why it belongs here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 04:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Aaron, I think that your reliance on trying to discern the original intent of the language, with the implication that if the original need no longer exists then the language should be tossed out, completely ignores the fact that a very large portion of the community seems to believe in the principle itself. The United States has certainly changed immensely in the 200+ years since 1787 when the Constitution was drafted and many of the factors that gave rise to certain provisions, the Bill of Rights in particular, are arguably no longer present. However, people continue to believe in the principles themselves. Without tagging editors as "inclusionist" or "deletionist", there certainly exists a broad range of opinion on this issue, but in my experience a very substantial number believe that IIDDD is a basic tenet of Wikipedia, whether or not one of the historical reasons for creating the policy has changed. -- DS1953 06:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Well if there is a "small number", of these proselytisers, they must be somewhat persuasive individuals, for the acceptance of this principle is indeed pervasive!
However I think I've given a good account above, showing how "if in doubt, don't delete" dovetails well with practically every aspect of deletion policy, providing a solid, workable way out of gray areas (if there's a dispute, seek consensus to delete using the forums set up for the purpose). It's hardly reductionist to point out how all-pervasive and, damn it, how useful the concept is. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 07:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that removing "if in doubt, don't delete" is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how mediawiki databases are organised. We still need to be conservative when deleting. Please check with a developer if you haven't already done so!
Of course, if it turns out that the engine has improved and I'm wrong ... the consequences would be ... interesting. :-) Kim Bruning 03:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Just putting things side by side. - brenneman (t) (c) 06:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Current version
In the normal operations of Wikipedia, over one thousand articles are deleted each day. While it is possible for any user to blank a page, the original content will still be available in the page history for others to view and restore if they wish. When pages are deleted, this removes not only the current version but also all previous versions from view. Only administrators have the ability to delete and undelete pages, and this is limited to those pages that are kept in the archive. Some older deleted pages are completely inaccessible.
Deleted pages can be restored if they've obviously been deleted out of process, or if there is support on Wikipedia:Deletion review. See undeletion policy for information on undeletion, but the onus is on the administrator never to delete an article without good reason.
If an article is repeatedly re-created by unassociated editors after being deleted, this may be evidence of a need for an article. Conversely, if an article is repeatedly nominated for deletion, this is not in and of itself evidence that it should be deleted. In some cases, repeated attempts to have an article deleted may even be considered disruptive. If in doubt, don't delete.
Many problems that people are tempted to solve by deletion can actually be solved by any editor simply by proper use of normal editing powers. In particular, articles about inconsequential or obscure branches of a subject may be merged with a more substantial article on the subject, or simply redirected if the content is too small. The advantage of this approach over deletion is that it expands the scope of the encyclopedia.
Since deletion cannot be undone by non-administrators, and it is often disheartening for new, good-faith users to see their work sumarily deleted, it is important to use deletion powers sparingly.
So, for all practicle concerns, we've got
ArbCom material over the addition of the words "When restoration was impossible," and "Now however". Please do let the record show that this dust up began when Tony attempted to
subvert consensus. Oh, and can we all see that several new caveats have crept into the deletion policy's lead paragraph, as well as "If in doubt don't delete" now being boldface?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
06:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
(See #Database organisation for context)
People need to come back from nasa-shuttle-disasters-can't-happen/let's-cut-down-the-last-tree-on-easter-island type lala land right now. There has been no back-end change to how deletion has been handled, as far as I'm aware. No matter how strong you feel consensus is or how large a supermajority you get; reality will not change. If you are unsure, but still delete, there are odds that actual valuable data will be lost forever.
If this information has been superseded, please inform me, as that would have several interesting consequences. Kim Bruning 07:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not articles can be restored, the statement "if in doubt don't delete" should remain, since it cautions an admin that they are expected to justify their decision to delete. I don't agree with any of Aaron's amendments, which seem to be based upon a point of view regarding the framing of the policy. I also support the extra text at the end, there should be exploration of other options besides deletion. Hiding talk 13:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Would someone please delete Beauxbaton Academy? It is fictional. I am brand new, have no idea how to do this, and figure that this will get it done fairly quickly. Sorry to dump it in here-- please delete this entry when you fix Beauxbaton. 216.185.84.246 03:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Now that the wording of the policy has at least temporarily been settled, I have a purely organizational change to propose. The subsection now numbered 1.1 "What to do with a problem page/image/category" appears under the section heading "Procedure for deletion". I would propose putting that as its own section, followed by the section "Procedure for deletion" and all of the other subsections, except that I would also move the "See also" subsection to its own section as the more typical style. As it stands, subsection 1.1 does not seem to fit under the "Procedure" banner. I think that the change would make the policy easier to use for someone looking for guidance. -- DS1953 23:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
There are so many deletion pages and talk pages that I'm not sure where to post this. The speedy delete pages mention tags but often new pages disappear a few minutes or less than a minute after being created. Even for a seasoned user like myself this is very confusing. Nothing on my watchlist. A little tiny link saying the page may have been deleted. I don't want to spend my time looking at delete logs for bad speedy deletes. Many speedy deletes could be handled by a tag (and maybe deletion of one version of the article.) I've rewritten advertising articles to real NPOV articles about a company. If the original bad version had not been there the article would never have been written. Unless there is something that needs to be removed for legal reasons then all deletions should go through a process. There should always be a tag that shows up on watch lists. The process of speedy delete deletes the evidence of any problems with speedy and those most likely to be victims of a bad deletion are those least likely to know how to work their way through or have the time to mess with wikipolicy. -- Gbleem 20:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not very happy with the introductory paragraphs of the deletion policy. Like any other thing done on Wikipedia, the purpose of the deletion policy is to build an encyclopedia. At the very least, the core policies should be mentioned. At the moment, the introduction mostly cautions against deletion; it could to with a heavy dose of WP:NPOV. Pilatus 02:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I've written a new policy proposal advocating specific time limits between successive AFD nominations for the same article. Please read it if you have time, and comment. Firebug 03:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
If the creator of a page repeatedly deleted the speedy delete tags, what is the correct way to respond? In the past, I have listed in as a Quetioned delete on Wikipedia:Speedy deletions, or it's become an AfD. If it's a clear speedy candidate, should I ask a random administrator, or stick with Wikipedia:Speedy deletions? Or could someone point me to the guideline for this scenario if one exists please? Thanks. -- Whouk ( talk) 15:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There being a need for concise one line summaries of guidelines, I offer this version. Please feel free to change it as necessary, and update the template Template:Guideline one liner to suit your taste. If the summary is inaccurate, please improve it rather than removing the template. Comments and opinions welcome! Stevage 17:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I regret to point out the Deletion Histories are now only available to Sysops. Anyone know why? -- Eddie 06:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
There is talk on Wikipedia:Consensus concerning the statement that certain Wikiprocesses, in particular WP:RFA and WP:AFD, no longer work on the principle of Consensus, but instead on the principle of Wikipedia:Supermajority, which seems to imply a more-or-less strict numerical limit. I would appreciate it if some AFD regulars would weigh in on the discussion on Wikipedia_talk:Consensus to comment on this. R adiant _>|< 14:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello everyone! Please review the newly-proposed guideline Wikipedia:Notability (software). Your thoughts are much appreciated. -- Perfecto 20:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a policy update proposal.
The policy must clearly distinguish the two very different cases of propasals to replace an voted article by #redirect.
The current rules " Wikipedia:Deletion_process" say: "If the decision is KEEP (including any variant such as REDIRECT or MERGE),...", i.e., fail to make this fundamental distinction.
I am posting it to discuss here because it is not a hypothetical issue: exactly this kind of confusion is happening with aladin article; see its talk and Afd. Mukadderat 23:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
An idea I've been kicking around for a while... it's probably not original, but what the hey. This is not intended as a proposal (at this time), just a set of talking points.
Often times, in a deletion vote, one prefaces their vote with strong or weak--i.e. weak keep or strong delete. As far as I can tell, this only is used to indicate the editor's strength of opinion, and has little impact (if any) on how the vote is tallied.
However, it seems to me that there are three types of deletes. I'm giving them cute names here, but better names can be suggested. Unlike strong/weak/standard delete, policy might in the future treat these diffently when deciding how to dispose of a XfD.
Note that this taxonomy is orthogonal to the question of speedy vs regular deletion. An attack article on an otherwise notable subject would be an example of "speedy delete without prejudice", an article on "Reasons George Bush should be impeached" would be a delete with extreme prejudice, but probably wouldn't qualify as a speedy.
-- EngineerScotty 19:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently got into a spat with a user in a talk section, then they come to my project article and AfD it on the basis that it is misnamed and NPOV.
Yeago 15:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
How are you supposed to handle articles like Redux which were deleted before after a vote, but then were unilaterally re-made? I'm not sure what the policy would be there. - Elmer Clark 05:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello.
I'm active on the Hebrew Wiki and was trying to translate the article about
Savanna. While I was working on the article I've spotted a very possible copyright problem (which I've written about in
here). Since I know that the copyright problems are a big issue in Wikipedia, I tried to learn how to deal with it in here (ie: En. Wiki) - but I've failed to understand.
As you might have understood already, I read English quite well, so this is not a case of a language block. The problem I had was that there is no simple explanation on how to react to such issues. I had to scroll all the way down in the Community Portal in order to find something that talks about the subject - and that article was no good to me. I had to go here, then scroll down the page in order to find the table which read "Problems that may require deletion". But all I've found there was the template to use - but what else should I do? So I had to scroll further down and read more passages and go to more references. I'm not a lazy reader, but it is hard to understand a procedure from so many different pages.
I finally gave-up. Instead, I wrote about the problem in the discussion for the article. Now, while I am writing this post, not minutes after I've posted the original problem, I was answered and helped - but it would be better if I could have understood the policy by myself.
If I may suggest a few things to improve the system:
I hope you may consider these suggestions. Havelock 21:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I often watch
Special:New Pages for a variety of reasons, one of which is to look for articles that have no place in Wikipedia. However, what looks at first like an article that should be deleted, is sometimes an article that is being created in stages by a well-meaning writer. It would be useful to me to have a [[Special:Seven Day Old]] category that I could watch instead. This tool would be useful to me because it would put these articles in one watch list for me, but not when they are brand-spanking new and the author may still be trying to get the first decent draft done.
I'm considering suggesting this as a software enhancement, and I wonder if other editors would find this feature useful?
Johntex\
talk
03:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy regarding AfD. I understand editors are invited to vote Keep-Delete. But what if they use invalid argunents violating Problems that don't require deletion.? Nomen Nescio 12:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The policy regarding time limits between nominations is currently a wee bit fuzzy. Currently, there is little defence against multiple (more or less) bad-faith noms by editors opposed to the article (or, more usually, opposed to an article's subject). I had a look at Firebug's proposal above; it's pretty harsh. My idea for a compromise would be something along the lines of requiring a renominator to EXPLICITLY state reasons for the renomination (ie what's changed to the article or context since the last nom). Where no reason is given, or where an admin can clearly justify that the reasoning is false or flawed, the article will automatically be speedily kept. Within a three-month (or so- entirely negotiable) period, ANY subsequent renoms should only be done by an admin, albeit potentially through the (reasoned) request of a non-admin. I don't mean to add to the morass of policy we already have, but this issue is one that causes some problems and backlog on AfD and is one that surely can easily be addressed by a simple rewording of the current deletion protocol. This isn't new policy, it's better policy. What d'y'all think? Badgerpatrol 23:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Making the following (or something like it) deletion policy may calm the few remaining Userbox Warriors.
Cooments? Septentrionalis 23:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
* A biography of a living person with a low degree of verifiable, persistent, and long-lasting notability and where the subject has requested that the article be deleted.
Rationale: Wikipedia may be an encyclopedia, but it is not a newspaper. Legal issues are not problematic if the article is neutral and well sourced, but articles about living persons who request them to be deleted should be removed out of politeness to the subject. No one should have to have to suffer an article included if he or she does not want it there. Think of it this way: Say you, as a private person, did something highly embarrassing that gained yourself 15 minutes of fame. Your actions would be notable and verifiable enough to have a bio stub created. Now, for the rest of your or Wikipedia's lifetime, you would have to monitor this article about you. Future employers would be able to Google your name and see what you did even long after your actions have fallen out of pop-cultural reference. However, you would have no recourse since it is verifiable. Out of common courtesy, you should be able to request you article be removed. Consensus on persistent and long-lasting notability should be gained through the deletion process since this can be a sliding scale from Bill Clinton to Brian Peppers. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently attempting to get some consensus regarding handling speedy keeps of recently-nominated AfDs: Wikipedia_talk:Speedy_keep#Possible_Guideline_Addition? As few people look at WP:SK, I'm hoping to get a few more eyes on it so it isn't controversial. -- badlydrawnjeff ( WP:MEMES?) 22:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What the difference between CAT:CSD and WP:SD, And why does neither link to each other, when they both do the same thing in a different way? Pardon my newbieness of course. -- DennyCrane 13:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if any one can help but I've speedied a couple of pages and the users who made the pages or other users removed the tags. I added {{db-empty}} to the page Jack Faber and Vissenaken. And the tags have been removed thanks for the help. Whispering 05:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Sakina bint Husayn’s page should be deleted because there are two pages about binte Hussain (Sakina bint Husayn and Sakina binte Hussain). Sakina binte Hussain is more popular and more informational page then Sakina bint Husayn. The two pages (Sakina binte Hussain and Sakina bint Husayn) are about the same girl. So I think Sakina bint Husayn should be deleted because it contains less information and less contributors then other article (Sakina binte Hussain). Thank you Salman
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Note: This archive is arbitrarily numbered
There needs to be an explicit policy regarding pages that seem solely to exist to libel people. They represent a sore temptation to some very stupid editors and extremely irresponsible administrators who will protect pages that contain statements that could destroy Wikimedia by providing grounds for a libel suit: protecting a page containing, or even frequently reverts by administrators to a version containing, grounds for a libel suit, will involve the Foundation.
The following was a warning to User:Essjay who should probably be de-adminned for this type of thing. A standard warning would be useful:
As an administrator, restoring and protecting libel by pseudonymous parties (that is, statements that cannot factually be verified to a legal standard of evidence), is a questionable act, one that could cause your administrator status to be revoked, if only so that Wikimedia does not end up taking legal responsibility for your actions. Here is the rationale for that assertion:
1. Pseudonymous parties, unlike those using their real names, and those using transitory IP numbers or obvious troll names, may seem to third parties to be trusted persons acting with colour of support of the community of users as a whole; While not revealing themselves to all users, and hiding their IP numbers from legitimate police or other investigative scrutiny by all parties, they are sometimes permitted (unwisely) to make assertions about persons. This should always be subject to very deep examination, and the more so in talk pages, since those are less controlled, and there is even more risk of presenting the false impression of a trusted person addressing their own community. Accordingly, pseudonyms should have the least rights of any to restore or revert commentary - unlike IP numbers, they can't be tracked down using the law with no administrative help, unlike real names, they can't be sued - leaving Wikimedia to be sued.
2. Repeated reverts by multiple parties, restoring comments to a record from which they may be read from search engines, will in many jurisdictions result in the body that sanctions the multiple parties (Wikimedia itself) becoming legally responsible for not preventing them from repeatedly restoring such comments to view.
3. Protecting pages so as to make further modification impossible is extremely dangerous to the Foundation; It amounts to an exception to the "anyone can edit" rule, and an endorsement of the views that are specifically being protected over all other views tht might replace/modify those.
4. Where there is an alternative wording that does not include any questionable assertions, and that is provided already, hiding *that* from sight to restore the libellous version is dangerous in the extreme.
5. Several persons who are repeatedly named in Wikipedia talk pages, and associated with the activities of anonymous or collective entities, have stated their willlingness to sue Wikimedia. Given that even Jim Wales has expressed public alarm over what has been written about himself in Wikipedia's pages, and declared it inaccurate, any frequent reversion to, or protection of, any version of any page that contains unproven assertions, puts Wikimedia in a terrible situation.
A lot of people would like to own Wikimedia's assets, including its servers and domain names, or even shut the thing down. Permitting pseudonymous parties to post potential libel and permitting people to remain administrators after restoring it to sight, and even protecting such pages, is the fastest way to ensure that Wikimedia is actually owned, in the long run, by the people who care least about Wikipedia's "community": the trolls. If this is what you wish, then by all means, permit pages like User_talk:24ip to stand, and keep reverting and even protecting them ...
For those who think that use of talk pages to propagate libel is not a problem, see the sad history of User_talk:24ip, which makes abundantly clear the danger of NEVER deleting such user pages:
Failure to delete this page and make a policy requiring speedy deletion of such pages, is going to wipe out Wikimedia sooner or later.
I can understand that deleted pages should be redlinks and shouldn't show to spiders, but is there any reason not to let ordinary users see deleted pages that aren't copyvios? Very occasionally I've read an interesting VfD or the like and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. ~~ N ( t/ c) 04:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm wondering whether there's any will to change the deletion policy so that admins can speedy delete clear cases of companies using Wikipedia for self-promotion. I found a page tonight Solms TCD, a company that gets only four unique Google hits, two of which are wikinews pages (now deleted). Yet according to the policy, we'll have to go through a VfD to delete it, which seems like a waste of time. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:03, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
User:JoJan deleted " User:FuriousFreddy", it's that Dutch man. Is this vandalism? 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I suggest adding a reference to the school page discussion into this page section "Problems that don't require deletion". Something like :
Article is about a school
|
See Wikipedia:Schools page. Likely not to be deleted. |
Thoughts ? Gtabary 23:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability proposal is a proposal to explicitly make "notability" a requirement for Wikipedia articles, and to explicitly include "lack of notability" as a reason for deleting articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability proposal and express your view on the proposal. DES (talk) 23:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
From the current text of the project page:
If another solution has been found for some of these pages than deletion, leave them listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion for a short while, so the original poster can see why it wasn't deleted, and what did happen to it. This will prevent reposting of the same item. After the original poster has seen the explanation, or in any case after about a day, the page can be delisted from AFD.
I propose that this be re-worded. The way this reads now, it sounds like following this process would involve actually removing the transclusion from the AfD page, rather than performing a speedy keep, as has often been done. I think that even if a consensus quickly develops for a non-delete solution, the deletion discussion should still remain transcluded on the AfD page, and simply be closed. I propose the following re-wording:
"If a clear consensus for a solution is quickly reached that does not involve formal deletion, a deletion discussion may be closed before the end of the five day discussion period. Examples would include a clear consensus for speedy deletion, where the article is speedy deleted, or a clear consensus for a speedy keep. In these situations, the debate should be closed, but remain transcluded on the AfD page. However, if the proposed solution is disputed, the AfD listing should remain for the full five day period."
Ëvilphoenix Burn! 16:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
This is already current practise (except when things go off the rails). You can probably just make the change. - Splash talk 16:22, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
"Completely idiosyncratic non-topic" has been considered a valid reason for deletion literally for years: for almost two years.
10 November 2003 (inline in the text)
17 October 2004 (neatly boxed as in present format)
It was recently removed, with, as nearly as I can tell, no discussion here. The edit comment says merely "removed extremely POV point."
I'm restoring it, pending discussion and consensus here. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This important part of deletion policy seems to have been removed recently without discussion. It's been part of deletion policy since March 30, 2004 (Theresa Knott compromise version).
Whoever did that, don't do it again. Please don't remove aspects of deletion policy simply because you may personally find them inconvenient. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 16:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
brenneman (t) (c) 23:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Huh? I didn't realize this was a content dispute - I thought it was just some random thing kappa inserted as it seems out of place in a policy page. It needs a rewrite at the very least. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 00:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
If you're going to edit war, at least have the common courtesy not to (ab)use the rollback button. Thank you. ~~ N ( t/ c) 00:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
It stays. If Aaron can seriously convince himself that it's drivel, we definitely need it in order to demonstrate that, on the contrary, it's how we run the wiki. It's why we have AfD and require a consensus for deletion, and why bad speedies can be summarily restored. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 09:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
IIDDD is still being refered to as the authoritative pronouncement of deletion policy as at November 8th. It's clear from the reasoned discussion here that this is false. As this phrase appears to be confusing people regarding the nuances, I'm removing it pending further discussion. - brenneman (t) (c) 05:13, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the "If in doubt, don't delete" guideline.— Who123 17:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone added this after "if in doubt, don't delete":
This doesn't seem to make sense. If the article is not deleted and you're deciding whether to delete it, I can't see how you'd get into this situation by acting on your doubt and failing to delete. The text seems to me to belong in the undeletion policy (where in fact I believe there is a passage saying you take borderline cases to VFU). I also have problems with policy descriptions that elide difference between undeletion and editing. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 12:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"If in doubt, don't delete" is a de facto argument for undeletion. It is indeed akin to saying "if somebody is in doubt, then nobody may delete", or at the very least, "if somebody is in doubt, he may undelete it and take it to AfD to resolve the doubt." You say this is a fallacy, but saying it is doesn't make it one.
You say "it is reasonable to assume that if something was deleted, then the responsible admin was not in doubt about that." But administrators are not god-kings; their actions can always be reversed by another admin. If two admins disagree on a speedy, then perforce there is doubt. Such doubts can be resolved by the normal processes of discussion that take place in AfD. We've done this many times in the past, it works well. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 05:20, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
That's simply incorrect. Unilateral undeletion of out-of-process deletion is part of the undeletion policy and was part of the undeletion policy before I started editing here. That some people are ignorant of its existence or don't agree with it is immaterial. The policy exists and is practised on Wikipedia. Moreover the undeletion policy mandates that AfD should be the place to resolve such matters. I have ensured that this policy is followed in every single case where an undeletion was unchallenged; contrary to your suggestion, I've had overwhelming success with this. Articles wrongly deleted are successfully undeleted by dint of this policy, which in the absence of an effective VFU that acts within the undeletion policy, is often the only way of getting things done. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 15:40, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Currently entries are being deleted because they aren't deemed notable (e.g. AFD: Apollo 9 (webcomic), AFD: Bored and Evil, AFD:Buddies in Big Places). I haven't been able to find anywhere that says accepted Wikipedia policy that says non-notable pages should be deleted (the only time I could even find the word notable was talking about future events). There is a proposal at Wikipedia:Notability proposal but I'm under the impression that until that is accepted as Wikipedia policy, it shouldn't be used when voting on AFDs. So is non-notability currently a valid reason for deleting articles?-- John Lynch 09:21, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this recent addendum to "If in doubt, don't delete."
This is wrong on several points. Firstly the forum for discussion of deletion is WP:AFD, not WP:VFU. Secondly, undeletion policy provides for unilateral undeletion of clearly out-of-process deletions, and again WP:AFD is the forum to which AFD candidates that were wrongly speedied should be taken. Thirdly a false identificaiton is made between undeletion of wrongful speedy deletions and edit warring. This is unhelpful and misleading. We certainly must used AFD to arrive at consensus, on that I agree, but in order to do so it may be necessary to undelete the article whenever it is wrongly deleted. Taken as a whole, that addendum seems to have been written by someone who is unaware of the deletion policy, the undeletion policy, and the established procedures for dealing with out-of-process deletions. I have removed the incorrect and misleading section. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 17:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
History shows that "pointless wheel wars" are quickly curbed by listing on AfD as the undeletion policy specifies. I've been through this many times myself an AfD always quells the war and settles the matter. I've changed the wording to refer to the undeletion policy. Also the reference to wheel wars smells of [WP:BEANS]] so definitely not a good idea. The idea is to stop people warring about their disputed speedies by taking them to AfD, and it works. It is of course categorically wrong to describe DRV as "the (sole) avenue for restoration". Check the undeletion policy. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that is even remotely close to the current state of affairs. "If in doubt, don't delete" is far more relevant now than it was before speedy deletion was adopted. You ask what's the point in saying "go ahead and restore it?" Well obviously the point is to tell people to stop dicking around on DRV, go ahead and restore it, and if necessary list on AfD. Just as the undeletion policy says. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Amazing. You attempt to remove a key bit of policy from the deletion policy, and you falsely accuse an administrator, who uses that key bit of policy, of perverting policy. Please reconsider, you've been told many times by other administrators who have been around far longer than I have, that you don't get to remove "if in doubt, don't delete." It's possibly the most important part of deletion policy. We're here to create an encyclopedia, not to hinder its creation. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a wiki. You've been here a few months now and had time to absorb that fact. If I run into an article that talks about a school, and I can verify the school but it's a nursery adjunct (albeit state registered) to another school, I'll redirect to the article about the school. This is how wikis work. How would deleting the article altogether be better? Someone who wanted to look up the school by the name of the deleted article would find nothing. By this method--involving deletion only when there really is nothing worth knowing about, we create an encyclopedia.
You claim that "If in doubt, don't delete" is anachronistic, yet it's very much a live issue. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Can we come up with some sort of policy for standardizing what the AfD title should be when an article is nominated for a second or later time? Suppose I have a sizable watchlist, but I think there's reason to think someone may try to delete a particular article; I can put a link to what an AfD for that article should be titled on a page in my userspace and then just check that page, and if any link has turned blue then I know to investigate.
However, what happens if it survives that AfD and someone starts another? The new AfD might be called "Articles for Deletion/Foo/2"; "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2"; "Articles for Deletion/Foo (2nd nomination)" or other variants. Even as the first AfD has proved that yes, someone out there thinks it should be deleted and might initiate the process, the lack of any standard naming convention for subsequent AfDs makes it harder to look out for them.
I would propose the +"/2" syntax be the standard; it's easiest to extrapolate (and type) the next in the series and we don't have to worry that there might be a collision between "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2" (a 2nd AfD for the article "Foo") and "Articles for Deletion/Foo 2" (an AfD for the article "Foo 2"). Comments, thoughts? -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The last thing we want to do is to encourage this kind of obsession. I've removed the silly thing. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
You say We all know you don't think things should be deleted. Well obviously you don't, because I do think things should be deleted, where their deletion is supported by the deletion policy. Moreover I don't see why my opinion on this matter matters here.
What I object to here is a pointless bit of nitpicking over whether an article has been listed for the first time, the second time, or whatever. How about a third AfD template, a fourth AfD template?
It's all way too obsessive. If you're worried about an article being deleted (or not deleted) for a second time, pay a bit of attention to that article. it's harmful because it feeds the obsession. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added this to the intro. It's a pivotal point of deletion policy and deserves far more prominence.
-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:44, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I certainly agree that we shouldn't delete anything unless we're sure it should be deleted. That's what our deletion policy is about. On Aaron's comment about AfD, I'd remind him that hundreds of school articles have been nominated for deletion over the past year, and a tiny proportion have been deleted. There just isn't a consensus for deletion of those articles. If the people who listed those articles for deletion had either edited them to make them more consequential, or redirected them to an article on, say, the school district, there would have been a lot less sound and fury, and the result would have been pretty much the same. Deletion is a sledgehammer, to be used when an article is irretrievably biased, a personal attack, unverifiable, or composed solely of copyright infringements. There probably is no reason to use deletion in any other circumstances. We probably made a big mistake in not spelling this out in the early days. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Based on recent edits, it sure looks like it'd be a good idea for people to get consensus on the talk page before making changes here. Friday (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I see little plausible justification for the implication that this is some sort of historical note. Please explain this change in particular. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
There is currently some controversy about the meaning and relevance of this phrase, and its suitability for inclusion on WP:DRV and WP:DEL. The controversy has manifested as an edit war on those pages (see for example [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]), and a short block on two editors [7]. I believe it might be helpful, in efforts to resolve the dispute, to look at the phrase's history and intent.
Tony Sidaway, SimonP and others are correct when they say that the phrase has been with WP for a long time. Its earliest use that I know of was in the document that eventually became WP:DEL. The original page can still be seen; it dates from February 25 2002, but was actually written in November 2001 in the old software.
That page was an instruction to administrators. In the old UseModWiki software, page deletions were qualitatively different from page deletions in our current system: once a page was deleted, it was completely removed, such that it was "impossible to restore from within the system." The present day equivalent is removal of the page history from the database by a developer.
This permanent quality of deletions made it imperative that any deletion decision was made with particular care—there was no such thing as "undeletion" at the time. The rules were a reminder to anyone about to delete a page what was generally expected of them; to wit, these were "some rules that those tasked with permanently deleting pages can generally be expected to follow in making the decision to delete or not."
On September 20 2003, more than two years ago, old time user Cimon avaro moved the instructions to a very appropriate, newly created page, Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators. You can see the original here.
The above history makes the meaning of the phrase in question crystal clear. It is an instruction to administrators (ie. to people who can delete pages) to be careful when commiting that final act, and to desist if they cannot make up their minds about whether they should delete a page. The phrase is an axiom for individual administrators to bear in mind when they make their delete decisions. The Deletion guidelines for administrators also provides other helpful tips to administrators. For example:
These are all sensible rules of thumb for administrators to keep in mind as they consider their closes; "if in doubt, don't delete" is one among them.
I have noticed that this phrase appears to be often misused these days. The clearest misuse happens when someone uses it to proclaim that another admin's close was invalid, because it was closed at a rough consensus standard that they believe to be unacceptable. This is often expressed with something like: "You should not have deleted that page. It was too close; two-thirds isn't a consensus. Remember 'if in doubt, don't delete.'"
This is the sort of thing that makes you go "Whaa—?". It's a misunderstanding of the axiom. IIDDD is not intended to call into question deletion decisions made in perfect accordance with the criteria in WP:DEL and WP:CON by an administrator who had no doubts as to the validity of the closure.
Another misuse of the axiom is the idea contained in the following: "You should not have deleted it because there was doubt. The very fact that I'm disagreeing with you proves that there is doubt. Remember 'if in doubt, don't delete.'" This is incorrect, for what should be very obvious reasons.
Tony Sidaway has recently made several edits to the VFU header page, in which he characterizes IIDDD in an interesting way. He writes,
and
It is unclear to me how an instruction to administrators to be careful when performing deletions became "the chief precept" of WP:DEL. The deletion policy is a document that specifies what things within WP may be removed. Where the main namespace is concerned¹, what may be removed are
These are the bases of article space policy and the fountainhead of deletion policy—they are what the deletion policy was written to enforce.
The axiom IIDDD on the other hand is merely a simple reminder to admins who're on the job not to be trigger happy. It is most certainly not "the chief precept" of deletion policy, just as "don't delete pages you nominate for deletion" is not the chief precept of deletion policy, nor any other of those little, if helpful, reminders given to admins who're working on deletions. The idea that IIDDD makes WP permissive is also misleading, I believe. It neither makes it more permissive nor less. What goes and stays on WP is determined by WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:NOT, and WP:Copyrights. All else are secondary, and all else are derivations. In this editor's humble opinion, at any rate.
Perhaps the intent is to emphasize the open nature of the wiki. This is a fair point, but:
This brings us to the question that started all this. Should "if in doubt, don't delete" be placed in WP:DEL and WP:DRV? This seems to be the source of much dispute, but that is only because IIDDD is misunderstood. Personally I will not strongly object with listing the admin reminders on the deletion page, because I know what they are and what they were written to for, and putting them there will not make me treat the article-space policy any less seriously. However, I do see the point that they're out-of-place. WP:DEL is primarily written for users and editors of the encyclopedia, not sysops. Placing IIDDD in such a page, in the way it has been placed there now, does sound odd—because non-sysops can't delete, whether they are in doubt or not. IIDDD is directed at sysops, the folks who do the deleting. The correct place for it is Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators, where it fits perfectly and where it has been placed since the inception of that page. (Yes, it was also in the page that eventually became WP:DEL, but that was when that page was in fact directed at admins. You can read it [http:// here.)
What about WP:DRV? The same applies. Wherever the thing is placed however, I would ask that it is not misrepresented, or written in a way that gives a misleading account of article space and deletion policy on Wikipedia. If I've been wrong in any of the above, do correct me—it will not be the first time, nor the last :) I do believe that this issue needn't divide us as it has. Kind regards enceph alon 20:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Note
Encephalon is right to state that the principle was first found in the earliest versions of WP:DEL; he even admits that it survived the transition to the new software. The rest of his piece appears to be an attempt to explain this away by claiming that the reason for not deleting an article about which some doubt existed had to do with older software.
Let's assume that part of the original reason was that the software would completely lose all content that was deleted. Does this then justify abandoning the principle? In other words, are the occasions when, if doubt exists over whether a piece should be deleted, we should delete it anyway?
Encephalon appeals to Verifiability. Unverifiable statements of fact must be removed from articles, and completely unverifiable articles must be deleted, of that there is no doubt.
Encephalon appeals to copyright. Copyright infringements are deleted under the copyright policy, which as a Key policy overrides the deletion policy and all others. We delete copyright infringements.
Encephalon appeals to No original research. Original research is removed from articles, and articles based solely on original research are deleted.
Encephalon appeals to What Wikipedia is not. This document is sometimes persuasive in deletion debates and is given in the deletion policy as an umbrella for a host of reasons for deletion.
Deletion policy is permissive, I think we can all agree on that. If an article doesn't fall under those principles then we don't delete it.
There are gray areas. "If in doubt, don't delete" informs our conduct in deciding whether to delete. The question of whether there is a consensus really boils down to whether the closing administrator is convinced by the deletion debate. If there is significant reasoned opposition then there isn't a consensus--if in doubt, etc.
Nowadays we permit administrators to delete some classes of article summarily, and well over 1,000 such deletions are carried out every day. But there are safeguards on this, as it's a very controversial. An administrator can undelete an obvious "out of process" speedy deletion, and if it's still a deletion candidate under the deletion policy it should be listed on AfD. If in doubt, don't delete, again.
If an administrator disagrees over an undeletion, what's to be done? AfD, obviously. If in doubt, don't delete. Why would an administrator want to delete an article that another administrator, in good faith, has undeleted? If in doubt, don't delete. List it on AfD, or Copyright problems.
The principle is simply stated and informs every aspect of our undeletion policy and our deletion policy. That is why it belongs here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 04:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Aaron, I think that your reliance on trying to discern the original intent of the language, with the implication that if the original need no longer exists then the language should be tossed out, completely ignores the fact that a very large portion of the community seems to believe in the principle itself. The United States has certainly changed immensely in the 200+ years since 1787 when the Constitution was drafted and many of the factors that gave rise to certain provisions, the Bill of Rights in particular, are arguably no longer present. However, people continue to believe in the principles themselves. Without tagging editors as "inclusionist" or "deletionist", there certainly exists a broad range of opinion on this issue, but in my experience a very substantial number believe that IIDDD is a basic tenet of Wikipedia, whether or not one of the historical reasons for creating the policy has changed. -- DS1953 06:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Well if there is a "small number", of these proselytisers, they must be somewhat persuasive individuals, for the acceptance of this principle is indeed pervasive!
However I think I've given a good account above, showing how "if in doubt, don't delete" dovetails well with practically every aspect of deletion policy, providing a solid, workable way out of gray areas (if there's a dispute, seek consensus to delete using the forums set up for the purpose). It's hardly reductionist to point out how all-pervasive and, damn it, how useful the concept is. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 07:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that removing "if in doubt, don't delete" is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how mediawiki databases are organised. We still need to be conservative when deleting. Please check with a developer if you haven't already done so!
Of course, if it turns out that the engine has improved and I'm wrong ... the consequences would be ... interesting. :-) Kim Bruning 03:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Just putting things side by side. - brenneman (t) (c) 06:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Current version
In the normal operations of Wikipedia, over one thousand articles are deleted each day. While it is possible for any user to blank a page, the original content will still be available in the page history for others to view and restore if they wish. When pages are deleted, this removes not only the current version but also all previous versions from view. Only administrators have the ability to delete and undelete pages, and this is limited to those pages that are kept in the archive. Some older deleted pages are completely inaccessible.
Deleted pages can be restored if they've obviously been deleted out of process, or if there is support on Wikipedia:Deletion review. See undeletion policy for information on undeletion, but the onus is on the administrator never to delete an article without good reason.
If an article is repeatedly re-created by unassociated editors after being deleted, this may be evidence of a need for an article. Conversely, if an article is repeatedly nominated for deletion, this is not in and of itself evidence that it should be deleted. In some cases, repeated attempts to have an article deleted may even be considered disruptive. If in doubt, don't delete.
Many problems that people are tempted to solve by deletion can actually be solved by any editor simply by proper use of normal editing powers. In particular, articles about inconsequential or obscure branches of a subject may be merged with a more substantial article on the subject, or simply redirected if the content is too small. The advantage of this approach over deletion is that it expands the scope of the encyclopedia.
Since deletion cannot be undone by non-administrators, and it is often disheartening for new, good-faith users to see their work sumarily deleted, it is important to use deletion powers sparingly.
So, for all practicle concerns, we've got
ArbCom material over the addition of the words "When restoration was impossible," and "Now however". Please do let the record show that this dust up began when Tony attempted to
subvert consensus. Oh, and can we all see that several new caveats have crept into the deletion policy's lead paragraph, as well as "If in doubt don't delete" now being boldface?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
06:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
(See #Database organisation for context)
People need to come back from nasa-shuttle-disasters-can't-happen/let's-cut-down-the-last-tree-on-easter-island type lala land right now. There has been no back-end change to how deletion has been handled, as far as I'm aware. No matter how strong you feel consensus is or how large a supermajority you get; reality will not change. If you are unsure, but still delete, there are odds that actual valuable data will be lost forever.
If this information has been superseded, please inform me, as that would have several interesting consequences. Kim Bruning 07:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not articles can be restored, the statement "if in doubt don't delete" should remain, since it cautions an admin that they are expected to justify their decision to delete. I don't agree with any of Aaron's amendments, which seem to be based upon a point of view regarding the framing of the policy. I also support the extra text at the end, there should be exploration of other options besides deletion. Hiding talk 13:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Would someone please delete Beauxbaton Academy? It is fictional. I am brand new, have no idea how to do this, and figure that this will get it done fairly quickly. Sorry to dump it in here-- please delete this entry when you fix Beauxbaton. 216.185.84.246 03:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Now that the wording of the policy has at least temporarily been settled, I have a purely organizational change to propose. The subsection now numbered 1.1 "What to do with a problem page/image/category" appears under the section heading "Procedure for deletion". I would propose putting that as its own section, followed by the section "Procedure for deletion" and all of the other subsections, except that I would also move the "See also" subsection to its own section as the more typical style. As it stands, subsection 1.1 does not seem to fit under the "Procedure" banner. I think that the change would make the policy easier to use for someone looking for guidance. -- DS1953 23:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
There are so many deletion pages and talk pages that I'm not sure where to post this. The speedy delete pages mention tags but often new pages disappear a few minutes or less than a minute after being created. Even for a seasoned user like myself this is very confusing. Nothing on my watchlist. A little tiny link saying the page may have been deleted. I don't want to spend my time looking at delete logs for bad speedy deletes. Many speedy deletes could be handled by a tag (and maybe deletion of one version of the article.) I've rewritten advertising articles to real NPOV articles about a company. If the original bad version had not been there the article would never have been written. Unless there is something that needs to be removed for legal reasons then all deletions should go through a process. There should always be a tag that shows up on watch lists. The process of speedy delete deletes the evidence of any problems with speedy and those most likely to be victims of a bad deletion are those least likely to know how to work their way through or have the time to mess with wikipolicy. -- Gbleem 20:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not very happy with the introductory paragraphs of the deletion policy. Like any other thing done on Wikipedia, the purpose of the deletion policy is to build an encyclopedia. At the very least, the core policies should be mentioned. At the moment, the introduction mostly cautions against deletion; it could to with a heavy dose of WP:NPOV. Pilatus 02:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I've written a new policy proposal advocating specific time limits between successive AFD nominations for the same article. Please read it if you have time, and comment. Firebug 03:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
If the creator of a page repeatedly deleted the speedy delete tags, what is the correct way to respond? In the past, I have listed in as a Quetioned delete on Wikipedia:Speedy deletions, or it's become an AfD. If it's a clear speedy candidate, should I ask a random administrator, or stick with Wikipedia:Speedy deletions? Or could someone point me to the guideline for this scenario if one exists please? Thanks. -- Whouk ( talk) 15:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There being a need for concise one line summaries of guidelines, I offer this version. Please feel free to change it as necessary, and update the template Template:Guideline one liner to suit your taste. If the summary is inaccurate, please improve it rather than removing the template. Comments and opinions welcome! Stevage 17:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I regret to point out the Deletion Histories are now only available to Sysops. Anyone know why? -- Eddie 06:42, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
There is talk on Wikipedia:Consensus concerning the statement that certain Wikiprocesses, in particular WP:RFA and WP:AFD, no longer work on the principle of Consensus, but instead on the principle of Wikipedia:Supermajority, which seems to imply a more-or-less strict numerical limit. I would appreciate it if some AFD regulars would weigh in on the discussion on Wikipedia_talk:Consensus to comment on this. R adiant _>|< 14:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello everyone! Please review the newly-proposed guideline Wikipedia:Notability (software). Your thoughts are much appreciated. -- Perfecto 20:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
This is a policy update proposal.
The policy must clearly distinguish the two very different cases of propasals to replace an voted article by #redirect.
The current rules " Wikipedia:Deletion_process" say: "If the decision is KEEP (including any variant such as REDIRECT or MERGE),...", i.e., fail to make this fundamental distinction.
I am posting it to discuss here because it is not a hypothetical issue: exactly this kind of confusion is happening with aladin article; see its talk and Afd. Mukadderat 23:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
An idea I've been kicking around for a while... it's probably not original, but what the hey. This is not intended as a proposal (at this time), just a set of talking points.
Often times, in a deletion vote, one prefaces their vote with strong or weak--i.e. weak keep or strong delete. As far as I can tell, this only is used to indicate the editor's strength of opinion, and has little impact (if any) on how the vote is tallied.
However, it seems to me that there are three types of deletes. I'm giving them cute names here, but better names can be suggested. Unlike strong/weak/standard delete, policy might in the future treat these diffently when deciding how to dispose of a XfD.
Note that this taxonomy is orthogonal to the question of speedy vs regular deletion. An attack article on an otherwise notable subject would be an example of "speedy delete without prejudice", an article on "Reasons George Bush should be impeached" would be a delete with extreme prejudice, but probably wouldn't qualify as a speedy.
-- EngineerScotty 19:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently got into a spat with a user in a talk section, then they come to my project article and AfD it on the basis that it is misnamed and NPOV.
Yeago 15:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
How are you supposed to handle articles like Redux which were deleted before after a vote, but then were unilaterally re-made? I'm not sure what the policy would be there. - Elmer Clark 05:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello.
I'm active on the Hebrew Wiki and was trying to translate the article about
Savanna. While I was working on the article I've spotted a very possible copyright problem (which I've written about in
here). Since I know that the copyright problems are a big issue in Wikipedia, I tried to learn how to deal with it in here (ie: En. Wiki) - but I've failed to understand.
As you might have understood already, I read English quite well, so this is not a case of a language block. The problem I had was that there is no simple explanation on how to react to such issues. I had to scroll all the way down in the Community Portal in order to find something that talks about the subject - and that article was no good to me. I had to go here, then scroll down the page in order to find the table which read "Problems that may require deletion". But all I've found there was the template to use - but what else should I do? So I had to scroll further down and read more passages and go to more references. I'm not a lazy reader, but it is hard to understand a procedure from so many different pages.
I finally gave-up. Instead, I wrote about the problem in the discussion for the article. Now, while I am writing this post, not minutes after I've posted the original problem, I was answered and helped - but it would be better if I could have understood the policy by myself.
If I may suggest a few things to improve the system:
I hope you may consider these suggestions. Havelock 21:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I often watch
Special:New Pages for a variety of reasons, one of which is to look for articles that have no place in Wikipedia. However, what looks at first like an article that should be deleted, is sometimes an article that is being created in stages by a well-meaning writer. It would be useful to me to have a [[Special:Seven Day Old]] category that I could watch instead. This tool would be useful to me because it would put these articles in one watch list for me, but not when they are brand-spanking new and the author may still be trying to get the first decent draft done.
I'm considering suggesting this as a software enhancement, and I wonder if other editors would find this feature useful?
Johntex\
talk
03:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the policy regarding AfD. I understand editors are invited to vote Keep-Delete. But what if they use invalid argunents violating Problems that don't require deletion.? Nomen Nescio 12:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The policy regarding time limits between nominations is currently a wee bit fuzzy. Currently, there is little defence against multiple (more or less) bad-faith noms by editors opposed to the article (or, more usually, opposed to an article's subject). I had a look at Firebug's proposal above; it's pretty harsh. My idea for a compromise would be something along the lines of requiring a renominator to EXPLICITLY state reasons for the renomination (ie what's changed to the article or context since the last nom). Where no reason is given, or where an admin can clearly justify that the reasoning is false or flawed, the article will automatically be speedily kept. Within a three-month (or so- entirely negotiable) period, ANY subsequent renoms should only be done by an admin, albeit potentially through the (reasoned) request of a non-admin. I don't mean to add to the morass of policy we already have, but this issue is one that causes some problems and backlog on AfD and is one that surely can easily be addressed by a simple rewording of the current deletion protocol. This isn't new policy, it's better policy. What d'y'all think? Badgerpatrol 23:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Making the following (or something like it) deletion policy may calm the few remaining Userbox Warriors.
Cooments? Septentrionalis 23:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
* A biography of a living person with a low degree of verifiable, persistent, and long-lasting notability and where the subject has requested that the article be deleted.
Rationale: Wikipedia may be an encyclopedia, but it is not a newspaper. Legal issues are not problematic if the article is neutral and well sourced, but articles about living persons who request them to be deleted should be removed out of politeness to the subject. No one should have to have to suffer an article included if he or she does not want it there. Think of it this way: Say you, as a private person, did something highly embarrassing that gained yourself 15 minutes of fame. Your actions would be notable and verifiable enough to have a bio stub created. Now, for the rest of your or Wikipedia's lifetime, you would have to monitor this article about you. Future employers would be able to Google your name and see what you did even long after your actions have fallen out of pop-cultural reference. However, you would have no recourse since it is verifiable. Out of common courtesy, you should be able to request you article be removed. Consensus on persistent and long-lasting notability should be gained through the deletion process since this can be a sliding scale from Bill Clinton to Brian Peppers. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently attempting to get some consensus regarding handling speedy keeps of recently-nominated AfDs: Wikipedia_talk:Speedy_keep#Possible_Guideline_Addition? As few people look at WP:SK, I'm hoping to get a few more eyes on it so it isn't controversial. -- badlydrawnjeff ( WP:MEMES?) 22:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
What the difference between CAT:CSD and WP:SD, And why does neither link to each other, when they both do the same thing in a different way? Pardon my newbieness of course. -- DennyCrane 13:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if any one can help but I've speedied a couple of pages and the users who made the pages or other users removed the tags. I added {{db-empty}} to the page Jack Faber and Vissenaken. And the tags have been removed thanks for the help. Whispering 05:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Sakina bint Husayn’s page should be deleted because there are two pages about binte Hussain (Sakina bint Husayn and Sakina binte Hussain). Sakina binte Hussain is more popular and more informational page then Sakina bint Husayn. The two pages (Sakina binte Hussain and Sakina bint Husayn) are about the same girl. So I think Sakina bint Husayn should be deleted because it contains less information and less contributors then other article (Sakina binte Hussain). Thank you Salman