This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Is anyone keeping a list of the AfDs of popular culture articles? Some of them have potential. I have little hope of stemming the tide of people who fail to see the distinction between a trivial list and a genuine article on cultural responses over decades or centuries (and in some cases millenia), or those who fail to distinguish between fictional and non-fictional topics, but some order would be nice. Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc is the poster child for how to handle this sort of material. Something similar could be done with Dinosaurs in popular culture, but the current AfD crowd seem ignorant of cultural studies. A distinction needs to be made between topics that have genuinely spawned a discernable legacy that has been commented on in reliable sources, and those where people are just aggregating trivia. I'm prepared to look back through the archives and gather a list, but first I thought I'd ask if there is an easy way to find "Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/<insert name here> in popular culture" AfDs? And before anyone misunderstands my motivation, articles with potential would have trivia cleaned out, sources added, and clearly defined criteria (to exclude trivia) before being ressurrected. In most cases, this would be a complete rewrite and would not be circumventing the previous AfD. So, how best to gather a list of these AfDs? Carcharoth 14:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with how you referred to this as a tide of deletions (more like tidal wave!). It is requirement t::hat AfD's have proper discussion before an article gets deleted. As it stands now with the floods of related articles being nominated for deletion it is impossible for interested editors to properly discuss the deletions with the depth the articles and wikipedia deserve. Mathmo Talk 00:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
These in popular culture articles usually violate original research. For example, it appears that some read The Library of Babel, saw what they thought was a reference to Infinite monkey theorem, and then added that original research to Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture. In addition, they usually violate WP:V because the entries are not referenced. Further, these list usually have no defined membership criteria as described at Wikipedia:Lists#Criteria_for_inclusion_in_lists. The effect is to create an article that violates Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. And when they include biographical material, the raise WP:BLP issues. Essentially, these popular culture articles are likely to violate four of Wikipedia's five article standards policies. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 15:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes people who have edited articles are notified when someone proposes their deletion. That is a good idea because those who edit an article often know something about the topic and can add relevant information not available elsewhere. Sometimes WikiProjects are notified for the same reason. However, I've been told by a number of people that deletion policies do not recommend such notices. Since there are clear reasons why such notifications are useful, I think this page ought to recommend it.
(Some legalistically inclined people have even made a point of saying that the lack of such a recommendation here should be given weight as a reason not to do it! One should improve Wikipedia only by doing what's required or at least recommended by promulgated guidelines, not by what common sense tells you would improve it.) Michael Hardy 23:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
By using common sense. They're not required to be infallible or omniscient. It's just something that might help improve Wikipedia. It is always a good idea to call the existence of any article to the attention of those likely to be able to contribute to it and improve it. Michael Hardy 23:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
...and observe the practical utility: by notifying those interested, one avoids a possible later need to got to a deletion review, which would only complicate things and make more work necessary. Michael Hardy 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not a matter of certain groups or certain users being "interested in" an article; it's a matter of certain groups and certain users being knowledgeable about the subject and therefore able to contribute. Michael Hardy 17:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I am unsure of the current policy on deletion and was unable to clarify by reading the deletion policy. I propose to clarify the wording of the policy.
My question was this: Is not being notable a reason for deletion?
And I now refer to the following "reason for deletion":
I note and assert that this line is currently the most definitive statement on whether or not being non-notable is a reason for deletion. (If not, please simply redirect me to a more definitive statement which I may have missed.)
The reason I believe it needs clarification is this: it does not include WP:N in the list.
I believe that this means that those who originally wrote it, and many of those who have expressly or impliedly agreed with it since, meant and interpreted it as meaning only that the notability sub-guidelines were reasons for deletion, and that non-notability for regular articles (such as Commit_charge, for example), is not a reason for deletion.
I believe that either WP:N needs to be included in this list of notability guidelines, or it needs to be specifically excluded.
Whatever the answer, I expect that the result will be controversial (unless I've just missed something, of course!), so I suggest we discuss it on this page until a consensus is reached, before changing the policy page. -- BenBildstein 05:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe there is a problem with the list of "reasons for deletion". One of the listed reasons for deletion is "subject fails to meet the the relevant notability guideline". This seems to be the only reason on the list that would allow the deletion of content that is appropriate for Wikipedia. It seems to me that every other item on the list refers to content that should be removed from Wikipedia, while there is no reason to remove non-notable content.
I am not making an anti-notability argument. In fact, it was reading User:Uncle_G/On_notability#Dealing_with_non-notable_things that made me realise this.
Let me clarify what I am saying. First, I believe everyone will agree that the other items on the reason list pertain to things that should be entirely removed from Wikipedia. However, the notability guideline says specifically that " Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content". That is, when a topic is not notable, it doesn't mean it doesn't belong on Wikipedia; instead, it means it doesn't belong on its own page.
So unlike the other reasons for deletion, when we delete something purely because it is non-notable, we may be removing valid, useful, verifiable, encyclopedic, NPOV, properly sourced, well written content that is entirely appropriate for Wikipedia.
I propose we change the policy on handling non-notable pages. I think the policy should be to merge the content of pages that have non-notable topics into other pages, so as not to lose this clearly valuable content. I believe this is more in line with the notability guideline. This would also necessitate changing Template:Notability to make the options "expand or merge", instead of "expand or delete".
Is this the right place to start a discussion on this proposed change? Can someone tell me what is the best way to progress this issue? -- BenBildstein 07:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've seen plenty of AfDs in which a merge or transwiki was the outcome. If the information is appropriate somewhere, but "on Wikipedia as a standalone article" is not that somewhere, those options are already available, either to move it to a parent or related article, or to move it off Wikipedia and to another project entirely. However, the vast majority of things deleted for non-notability fit neither category—they're not appropriate for any parent article (and may not be sourced at all) and aren't appropriate for any other project either. Just because information is verifiable, not original research, and neutral does not necessarily mean that it's appropriate for its own article, or for any article. Remember, we're all editors here, and an important function of an editor is to cut. Deleting and removing things is not in and of itself bad, it's just as necessary a maintenance task as copyediting and correcting misspellings. What notability helps to do is answer the question "Alright, we know we need to cut sometimes, but what should we cut?" The answer is, "Things no reliable sources have bothered to take any significant note of." We reflect reliable sources, we don't second-guess them, and we're not a first publisher. So when reliable sources have chosen not to publish anything or much of anything about something, we reflect that by not doing so either. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
OK. I'll leave this for now, and try to come back to it when I feel more qualified. One way or the other. -- BenBildstein 02:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that there is a serious problem with Wikipedia's current deletion policy that needs to be fixed with something like this. A huge problem is that the admins are elitist in determining that certain topics aren't significant enough to merit an article and deletes them. This is not acceptable when it's an article about a website that gets tens of thousands of regular viewers. Dozens of very popular webcomics and blogs that recieve tens of thousands of viewers according to the internet traffic tracking service, had articles about them deleted by wikipedia.
In short, any website, blog or webcomic that a decent number of people may come to wikipedia to learn about deserves to not have the article on that website, blog or webcomic deleted and thus have nothing turn up from their search.
Wikipedia is fantastic in that it lets you find straightforward information about any topic. Wikipedia's contributors shouldn't be deleting articles about blogs and webcomics that recieve a decent amount of traffic just because they personally don't know about them. This is the definition of elitism. And it also weakens wikipedia's ability to serve as a useful straightforward reference on virtually any topic.
The single greatest strength of wikipedia is that it contains so much more information than brittanica and every other encyclopedia could ever hope to contain. This is a strength that should be emphasized and encouraged, not actively undermined by elitist "contributors" who decide that just because they personally haven't heard of a blog or a webcomic, means that the thousands that do don't matter, and that the dozens of visitors who stumble onto the blog or webcomic anew and who turn to wikipedia for information about it deserve to have nothing come back on the search.
I can't mention how many times I come to wikipedia nowadays to learn about a new site with a lot of users and contributors only to have no article come back because an elitist editor decided that the article on that site/blog/webcomic wasn't important enough to be included. Pushy elitist editors deleting articles left and right, this is a problem that's worse than ever.
I regularly contributed to wikipedia since it's inception. But I've stopped contributing as a result of this and have actively encouraged others to do so as well. And that's going to continue until wikipedia changes it's policy on deleting articles left and right.
People who come to wikipedia looking for information about a popular blog or webcomic or site deserve to find it. That's the entire point of wikipedia, to provide information on things that brittanica was too limited in scope to cover.
I adored the Wikipedia when it was first launched and I contributed to a number of articles, some extensively, and always anonymously. The Wikipedia then was a riot of contributors, each adding bits and pieces to the articles they were familiar with, with nary an admin or editor in sight. The Wikipedia was about articles and contributors. It was a fascinating source of information and the talk pages were often incredibly informative. You could have honest to god discussions there! You could build up an article with two or three anonymous contributors on the talk pages over days (or sometimes weeks). The Wikipedia WORKED.
The current Wikipedia is a very different beast--hierarchical, closed, and overrun with "admins" and "editors" who are more concerned with personal politics, the bureacracy of the beast, and minutae like "wikification" than contributing to articles. Nowadays the Wikipedia is all about the Wikipedia. Articles and contributors are caught in a vast bureaucratic clusterfuck. Articles in particular are "turf" to be fought over, to the great detriment of the people who actually contribute to them or use them. Edits are about notches in your belt, not adding content. Knowing an admin is more important than knowing your subject. Making an edit nowadays prompts threats and frequent reversions (or lockings) for no damned reason. It doesn't have to be controversial. You can correct the spelling of a species name and get chewed out for it. The talk pages, far from being about building consensus and putting togethr good articles, are bully pulpits for admins and connected editors. The NPOV and common courtesy have gone right out the window on talk pages, as shown by all the hyperbolic and downright paranoid rantings by admins here shows. "Hate site"? Please. I've seen hate sites, and Bagley/Byrn ain't it. "Jihad"? You must be joking.
Nowadays the Wikipedia community seems obsessed with the tangental side of the wiki: voting up admins, arguing about (usually pointless) policy, locking and unlocking articles, and pointless editing to enforce editorial unity ("This article has a trivia section--triva sections are discouraged because they're fun and interesting. Please consider rewriting the article to bury all these nifty facts under an avalanche of stilted faux academic prose in the main body of the article. Failing that, just delete the trivia, since traditional encyclopedias don't have trivia sections and we're bound to follow a fifteen-hundred year old dead tree paradigm, never mind that we're a twenty-first century hypertext website.") and stylistic monotony. The Wikipedia DOESN'T work. The Wikipedia is broken.
I'm inclined to think that the increasing toxicity of the community, coupled with power-drunk admins and people obsessed with the bureaucratic way of getting things done has finally gotten to the point where it drive more people away than come in.
There was a time when I logged over 1000 edits a month. Now I rarely bother to visit - not because there’s less work to do, but rather, because so much of what goes on there is unpleasant crap.
A frequently cited criticism of Wikipedia's Deletion policy is the manner in which an admin determines that certain topics aren't significant enough to merit an article and deletes the article written about the topic. As a result of this policy, several articles about popular webcomics and blogs that recieve tens of thousands of viewers according to Alexa, many of which won critical praise had articles about them deleted by wikipedia. <references/ http://www.webcomicker.com/?p=33> <references/ http://comixtalk.com/terrence_markswikipedia_and_y> It was viewed as not acceptable my many webcomic authors and readers that articles about websites and webcomics that have tens of thousands of regular viewers are deemed as candidates for deletion as a result of an admin who is personally unfamiliar with the comic. Others found it counter intuitive that because of Wikipedia's deletion policy, users who come to wikipedia looking for information about a popular blog or webcomic or site were unable to find it. This seemed to go against what was traditionally considered one of Wikipedia's greatest assests, it's ability to provide information on topics that professional encyclopedias like Encyclopedia brittanica were too limited in scope to cover. Others view as a sign that Wikipedia has become too hierarchical, closed, and overrun with "admins" and "editors" and Wikipedia itself is becoming burdened by the bureacracy of of it's editing staff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.41.35 ( talk) 23:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
What's a speedy keep, where is it mentioned on this page? Pdbailey 16:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
When a deletion nomination is closed early as "keep", it's a speedy keep. This can be because of WP:CSK, WP:SNOW, or just because it's the right thing to do in a particular situation. If you disagree with one, you should contact the admin who closed it and discuss it with that person. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 17:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Carl, does the person have to be an admin? Because it looks like the person who closed it wasn't, maybe I'm wrong. You can check at [1] Pdbailey 17:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I nominated an article for deletion and failed to fill in a reason (I could have sworn I had!) and a "speedy keep" ensued within 24 hours. This suggests to me that this encyclopedia is largely for the editing by the often editors, and I'm not invited, but maybe I'm not. Anyway, there is no firm 5 day policy on this page and it conflicts with the guide in this respect. Clarity might be nice Pdbailey 16:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Is anyone keeping a list of the AfDs of popular culture articles? Some of them have potential. I have little hope of stemming the tide of people who fail to see the distinction between a trivial list and a genuine article on cultural responses over decades or centuries (and in some cases millenia), or those who fail to distinguish between fictional and non-fictional topics, but some order would be nice. Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc is the poster child for how to handle this sort of material. Something similar could be done with Dinosaurs in popular culture, but the current AfD crowd seem ignorant of cultural studies. A distinction needs to be made between topics that have genuinely spawned a discernable legacy that has been commented on in reliable sources, and those where people are just aggregating trivia. I'm prepared to look back through the archives and gather a list, but first I thought I'd ask if there is an easy way to find "Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/<insert name here> in popular culture" AfDs? And before anyone misunderstands my motivation, articles with potential would have trivia cleaned out, sources added, and clearly defined criteria (to exclude trivia) before being ressurrected. In most cases, this would be a complete rewrite and would not be circumventing the previous AfD. So, how best to gather a list of these AfDs? Carcharoth 14:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with how you referred to this as a tide of deletions (more like tidal wave!). It is requirement t::hat AfD's have proper discussion before an article gets deleted. As it stands now with the floods of related articles being nominated for deletion it is impossible for interested editors to properly discuss the deletions with the depth the articles and wikipedia deserve. Mathmo Talk 00:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
These in popular culture articles usually violate original research. For example, it appears that some read The Library of Babel, saw what they thought was a reference to Infinite monkey theorem, and then added that original research to Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture. In addition, they usually violate WP:V because the entries are not referenced. Further, these list usually have no defined membership criteria as described at Wikipedia:Lists#Criteria_for_inclusion_in_lists. The effect is to create an article that violates Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. And when they include biographical material, the raise WP:BLP issues. Essentially, these popular culture articles are likely to violate four of Wikipedia's five article standards policies. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 15:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Sometimes people who have edited articles are notified when someone proposes their deletion. That is a good idea because those who edit an article often know something about the topic and can add relevant information not available elsewhere. Sometimes WikiProjects are notified for the same reason. However, I've been told by a number of people that deletion policies do not recommend such notices. Since there are clear reasons why such notifications are useful, I think this page ought to recommend it.
(Some legalistically inclined people have even made a point of saying that the lack of such a recommendation here should be given weight as a reason not to do it! One should improve Wikipedia only by doing what's required or at least recommended by promulgated guidelines, not by what common sense tells you would improve it.) Michael Hardy 23:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
By using common sense. They're not required to be infallible or omniscient. It's just something that might help improve Wikipedia. It is always a good idea to call the existence of any article to the attention of those likely to be able to contribute to it and improve it. Michael Hardy 23:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
...and observe the practical utility: by notifying those interested, one avoids a possible later need to got to a deletion review, which would only complicate things and make more work necessary. Michael Hardy 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not a matter of certain groups or certain users being "interested in" an article; it's a matter of certain groups and certain users being knowledgeable about the subject and therefore able to contribute. Michael Hardy 17:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I am unsure of the current policy on deletion and was unable to clarify by reading the deletion policy. I propose to clarify the wording of the policy.
My question was this: Is not being notable a reason for deletion?
And I now refer to the following "reason for deletion":
I note and assert that this line is currently the most definitive statement on whether or not being non-notable is a reason for deletion. (If not, please simply redirect me to a more definitive statement which I may have missed.)
The reason I believe it needs clarification is this: it does not include WP:N in the list.
I believe that this means that those who originally wrote it, and many of those who have expressly or impliedly agreed with it since, meant and interpreted it as meaning only that the notability sub-guidelines were reasons for deletion, and that non-notability for regular articles (such as Commit_charge, for example), is not a reason for deletion.
I believe that either WP:N needs to be included in this list of notability guidelines, or it needs to be specifically excluded.
Whatever the answer, I expect that the result will be controversial (unless I've just missed something, of course!), so I suggest we discuss it on this page until a consensus is reached, before changing the policy page. -- BenBildstein 05:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe there is a problem with the list of "reasons for deletion". One of the listed reasons for deletion is "subject fails to meet the the relevant notability guideline". This seems to be the only reason on the list that would allow the deletion of content that is appropriate for Wikipedia. It seems to me that every other item on the list refers to content that should be removed from Wikipedia, while there is no reason to remove non-notable content.
I am not making an anti-notability argument. In fact, it was reading User:Uncle_G/On_notability#Dealing_with_non-notable_things that made me realise this.
Let me clarify what I am saying. First, I believe everyone will agree that the other items on the reason list pertain to things that should be entirely removed from Wikipedia. However, the notability guideline says specifically that " Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content". That is, when a topic is not notable, it doesn't mean it doesn't belong on Wikipedia; instead, it means it doesn't belong on its own page.
So unlike the other reasons for deletion, when we delete something purely because it is non-notable, we may be removing valid, useful, verifiable, encyclopedic, NPOV, properly sourced, well written content that is entirely appropriate for Wikipedia.
I propose we change the policy on handling non-notable pages. I think the policy should be to merge the content of pages that have non-notable topics into other pages, so as not to lose this clearly valuable content. I believe this is more in line with the notability guideline. This would also necessitate changing Template:Notability to make the options "expand or merge", instead of "expand or delete".
Is this the right place to start a discussion on this proposed change? Can someone tell me what is the best way to progress this issue? -- BenBildstein 07:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've seen plenty of AfDs in which a merge or transwiki was the outcome. If the information is appropriate somewhere, but "on Wikipedia as a standalone article" is not that somewhere, those options are already available, either to move it to a parent or related article, or to move it off Wikipedia and to another project entirely. However, the vast majority of things deleted for non-notability fit neither category—they're not appropriate for any parent article (and may not be sourced at all) and aren't appropriate for any other project either. Just because information is verifiable, not original research, and neutral does not necessarily mean that it's appropriate for its own article, or for any article. Remember, we're all editors here, and an important function of an editor is to cut. Deleting and removing things is not in and of itself bad, it's just as necessary a maintenance task as copyediting and correcting misspellings. What notability helps to do is answer the question "Alright, we know we need to cut sometimes, but what should we cut?" The answer is, "Things no reliable sources have bothered to take any significant note of." We reflect reliable sources, we don't second-guess them, and we're not a first publisher. So when reliable sources have chosen not to publish anything or much of anything about something, we reflect that by not doing so either. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
OK. I'll leave this for now, and try to come back to it when I feel more qualified. One way or the other. -- BenBildstein 02:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that there is a serious problem with Wikipedia's current deletion policy that needs to be fixed with something like this. A huge problem is that the admins are elitist in determining that certain topics aren't significant enough to merit an article and deletes them. This is not acceptable when it's an article about a website that gets tens of thousands of regular viewers. Dozens of very popular webcomics and blogs that recieve tens of thousands of viewers according to the internet traffic tracking service, had articles about them deleted by wikipedia.
In short, any website, blog or webcomic that a decent number of people may come to wikipedia to learn about deserves to not have the article on that website, blog or webcomic deleted and thus have nothing turn up from their search.
Wikipedia is fantastic in that it lets you find straightforward information about any topic. Wikipedia's contributors shouldn't be deleting articles about blogs and webcomics that recieve a decent amount of traffic just because they personally don't know about them. This is the definition of elitism. And it also weakens wikipedia's ability to serve as a useful straightforward reference on virtually any topic.
The single greatest strength of wikipedia is that it contains so much more information than brittanica and every other encyclopedia could ever hope to contain. This is a strength that should be emphasized and encouraged, not actively undermined by elitist "contributors" who decide that just because they personally haven't heard of a blog or a webcomic, means that the thousands that do don't matter, and that the dozens of visitors who stumble onto the blog or webcomic anew and who turn to wikipedia for information about it deserve to have nothing come back on the search.
I can't mention how many times I come to wikipedia nowadays to learn about a new site with a lot of users and contributors only to have no article come back because an elitist editor decided that the article on that site/blog/webcomic wasn't important enough to be included. Pushy elitist editors deleting articles left and right, this is a problem that's worse than ever.
I regularly contributed to wikipedia since it's inception. But I've stopped contributing as a result of this and have actively encouraged others to do so as well. And that's going to continue until wikipedia changes it's policy on deleting articles left and right.
People who come to wikipedia looking for information about a popular blog or webcomic or site deserve to find it. That's the entire point of wikipedia, to provide information on things that brittanica was too limited in scope to cover.
I adored the Wikipedia when it was first launched and I contributed to a number of articles, some extensively, and always anonymously. The Wikipedia then was a riot of contributors, each adding bits and pieces to the articles they were familiar with, with nary an admin or editor in sight. The Wikipedia was about articles and contributors. It was a fascinating source of information and the talk pages were often incredibly informative. You could have honest to god discussions there! You could build up an article with two or three anonymous contributors on the talk pages over days (or sometimes weeks). The Wikipedia WORKED.
The current Wikipedia is a very different beast--hierarchical, closed, and overrun with "admins" and "editors" who are more concerned with personal politics, the bureacracy of the beast, and minutae like "wikification" than contributing to articles. Nowadays the Wikipedia is all about the Wikipedia. Articles and contributors are caught in a vast bureaucratic clusterfuck. Articles in particular are "turf" to be fought over, to the great detriment of the people who actually contribute to them or use them. Edits are about notches in your belt, not adding content. Knowing an admin is more important than knowing your subject. Making an edit nowadays prompts threats and frequent reversions (or lockings) for no damned reason. It doesn't have to be controversial. You can correct the spelling of a species name and get chewed out for it. The talk pages, far from being about building consensus and putting togethr good articles, are bully pulpits for admins and connected editors. The NPOV and common courtesy have gone right out the window on talk pages, as shown by all the hyperbolic and downright paranoid rantings by admins here shows. "Hate site"? Please. I've seen hate sites, and Bagley/Byrn ain't it. "Jihad"? You must be joking.
Nowadays the Wikipedia community seems obsessed with the tangental side of the wiki: voting up admins, arguing about (usually pointless) policy, locking and unlocking articles, and pointless editing to enforce editorial unity ("This article has a trivia section--triva sections are discouraged because they're fun and interesting. Please consider rewriting the article to bury all these nifty facts under an avalanche of stilted faux academic prose in the main body of the article. Failing that, just delete the trivia, since traditional encyclopedias don't have trivia sections and we're bound to follow a fifteen-hundred year old dead tree paradigm, never mind that we're a twenty-first century hypertext website.") and stylistic monotony. The Wikipedia DOESN'T work. The Wikipedia is broken.
I'm inclined to think that the increasing toxicity of the community, coupled with power-drunk admins and people obsessed with the bureaucratic way of getting things done has finally gotten to the point where it drive more people away than come in.
There was a time when I logged over 1000 edits a month. Now I rarely bother to visit - not because there’s less work to do, but rather, because so much of what goes on there is unpleasant crap.
A frequently cited criticism of Wikipedia's Deletion policy is the manner in which an admin determines that certain topics aren't significant enough to merit an article and deletes the article written about the topic. As a result of this policy, several articles about popular webcomics and blogs that recieve tens of thousands of viewers according to Alexa, many of which won critical praise had articles about them deleted by wikipedia. <references/ http://www.webcomicker.com/?p=33> <references/ http://comixtalk.com/terrence_markswikipedia_and_y> It was viewed as not acceptable my many webcomic authors and readers that articles about websites and webcomics that have tens of thousands of regular viewers are deemed as candidates for deletion as a result of an admin who is personally unfamiliar with the comic. Others found it counter intuitive that because of Wikipedia's deletion policy, users who come to wikipedia looking for information about a popular blog or webcomic or site were unable to find it. This seemed to go against what was traditionally considered one of Wikipedia's greatest assests, it's ability to provide information on topics that professional encyclopedias like Encyclopedia brittanica were too limited in scope to cover. Others view as a sign that Wikipedia has become too hierarchical, closed, and overrun with "admins" and "editors" and Wikipedia itself is becoming burdened by the bureacracy of of it's editing staff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.41.35 ( talk) 23:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
What's a speedy keep, where is it mentioned on this page? Pdbailey 16:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
When a deletion nomination is closed early as "keep", it's a speedy keep. This can be because of WP:CSK, WP:SNOW, or just because it's the right thing to do in a particular situation. If you disagree with one, you should contact the admin who closed it and discuss it with that person. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 17:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Carl, does the person have to be an admin? Because it looks like the person who closed it wasn't, maybe I'm wrong. You can check at [1] Pdbailey 17:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I nominated an article for deletion and failed to fill in a reason (I could have sworn I had!) and a "speedy keep" ensued within 24 hours. This suggests to me that this encyclopedia is largely for the editing by the often editors, and I'm not invited, but maybe I'm not. Anyway, there is no firm 5 day policy on this page and it conflicts with the guide in this respect. Clarity might be nice Pdbailey 16:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)