This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
It seems to me that there needs to be a policy for courtesy blanking of arbitration-related pages if it is to become standard practice. Jfwambaugh 16:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The above referenced page and its contents are confusing to me. Could someone who understands the whole deletion process please take a look? I have tried this message elsewhere with no action. Thanks in advance! -- Stormbay 22:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've seen a handful of cases where cleanup templates were removed by noms for prod/csd, etc. Not something that really makes a lot of sense to me - is there a valid reason to do so? Not seeing one mentioned here, at first glance, and can't think of any myself. They seem to back up any nom. (Do they do so to excess?) MrZaius talk 15:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
something should be said that if you think the article needs improvement or could be improved, do not use afd. people are using afd to bully other people into improving articles or having those deleted. that is not a good use of deletion. it is not clear that it is not a good use of deletion on the page. it should say 'do not nominate articles that need improvement, if you can figure out how to make the article better, do that first' the deletion pages are full of things that have citations available, but people nominate for deletion. that's a problem because it deletes good work and good faith effort. -- Buridan 13:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this is a problem. But unfortunately I see lots of articles tagged on top and on bottom, and nobody rushes to address the iussues posted. Only the ultimate threat of deletion makes people move.
I would suggest a wider use of threatening tags of kind {{ notability}}, which explicitely warns that if the issues will not be addressed, the articler may be deleted. IMO the same explicite warning must be added to {{ unreferenced}} and others. ("unreferened" says: "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed." But if a template is placed onto the whole article, not on section, it must explicitely say that the whole article is a fair game for the AfD).
Also I would suggest to write explicitely in the policy that new artickles and articles significantly editied only by 1-3 editors (typo fixing, tagging, categorizing, etc. don't count), then the article should not be genetrally nominated for deletion without preceding warning, unless the article is really harmful for wikipedia.
Any thoughts? Mukadderat 22:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
An Admin used Speedy Deletion to delete my article. After I proved it did not quaillify for Speedy Deletion, he refused to undelete it. Here is a copy from his talk page. He has began to give petty replies and is tring to ignore the subject instead of admitting he jumped to the conclusion.
"I was told you deleted my article because you thought I was avertising it. It's a good book that I picked up off of Google books. What is wrong with making a page about it? -- JRTyner 02:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The article was about a book I bought off of Google books. The artlce took no sides, and didn't promote the book in any way, even though I thought it was interesting and funny. All of the other books I like already have a page, so I thought this would be a good subject for my first article. The page had no links or information on how to buy the book. I didn't even mention how I bought it. I had put a brief summary, a few facts the aurthor had mentioned in a news paper article and and listed on her website, plus the catagory. I had just added the publisher's name, the ISBN number, how long the book is, and a few other encyclopedic facts when it was deleted. -- JRTyner 02:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
-- JRTyner 18:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that what I am looking for is a third party to mediate so this disscusion won't become uncivil. -- JRTyner 18:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the article must be restored, because Wikipedia:Notability (books) is a guideline, not a binding policy. This is one word against another. Admins do not have any editing privileges begore other wikipedians. The intolerance to a fellow wikipedian is a bad trait of an admin. Why don't you retore it, give the contributor a chance and then put for deletion? Mukadderat 22:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This case deserves to be discussed in the "Deletion policy" page. It is not the first time I see such hard intolerance to a newcomer. During a year I am an editor, wikipedia has notable shifted towards impatience and intolerance. What is it: new generation of admins? Fatifue of admins that are so tired that don't see to talk with other people? I think that Speedy Deletion has become quite misused. Even {{ prod}} taf is supposed to sit 5 days. But here click, surprize! Yo are dead! Speedy was intended to deal with utter garbage. Any minimally disputable cases must go via community. No one is allowed to feel an ultimate unbeatable judge. Mukadderat 22:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I just noticed that Wikipedia:Notability (books) in its first lines says failing to satisfy them is not a criterion for speedy deletion.. Also, CSD A7 lists "person, group of people, band, club, company, organisation, or web content", but not books, shops, electircal devices, brands, horse breeds, etc. It lists (and rightly so) only the most common vanity cases. Mukadderat 22:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion review is the place to raise such matters. I would say, however, that it is overwhelmingly likely that even if the article was restored as an improper speedy deletion, it would be deleted if listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. -- Stormie 01:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I have 2 problems with deletions:
1. Often they appear very hasty and arbitrary: I have had an admittedly very brief article about a world-class academic deleted within ten seconds of my putting it up.
2. Once they have been deleted, it is difficult to get them reinstated or even to find the original copy. This can be v. frustrating esp. to new users. Also, I want now to start a new article (on 'xtimeline' as it happens). I find that there has been one before. I'd like to incorporate this into what I do now .... Where can I find it?
I'm frustrated too ... It happened to me many times that I completely lose the content of a whole article because I forgot I had to save it somewhere else everytime I hit the wikipedia save button. It is also very frustrating to see a 4 line licence decription on a picture being completely lost whitin 5 sec because of someone (I believe robot) got trigered.
Why is there so many confusing option to upload image that lead nowhere !!! but instant deletion !!! I decided my selfmade image would be used for non-commercial use and educative purposes,,, It's up to you,,, bye wiki... YOUR BLOATED ... Those are my today'$ donation$.
-- Transisto ( talk) 02:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Currently, Wikipedia:Guide to deletion states:
It is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion.
If this should be changed or deleted is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Guide to deletion#Deletion request notification. — Sebastian 20:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I want to revive an old discussion Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy/Archive_22#Why_make_deleted_pages_invisible.3F. I think it should be
possible somehow to see the content of a deleted page.
I agree that deleted pages
However, I think users should have access to the content, so they
The best way, I think, is to find a technical way how to satisfy all arguments above. Just a first idea, to have a interface which will email the content of the article at the users's request.
Turingsk 09:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to delete users? IE vandals or inactive users? Hackboy1 17:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that a lot of AfD discussions (maybe most) are closed with the following comment: "The result was keep/delete," and nothing more. Those who participate in AfD discussions are asked to provide reasons for their recommendations. Shouldn't it also be standard practice for closing admins to report what the rationale for deleting or keeping an article was? If deciding whether to delete or keep an article were a simple matter of tallying keep and delete recommendations, a simple "The result was..." would be fine, but AfDs are supposed to be discussions, not votes, where arguments and policy count for more than numbers supporting or opposing a particular action. Stating the rationale(s) for deletion when closing an AfD is more consistent with the idea that it is a discussion rather than a vote; it can help editors better understand AfD precedents; and it can help editors understand whether a deleted article may or may not be re-created, and what issues must be addressed in order to avoid another deletion in case it is re-created. The alternative to this seems to me little better than a simple "Keep/Delete. ~~~~" from AfD participants. I realize admins have many responsibilities, and there may be AfD backlogs, but if admins are already taking the time to read and evaluate the arguments made in these discussions, typing a sentence in explanation of the decision adds a relatively neglible amount of time to the process. Nick Graves 21:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
There is an inconsistency in the fact that we still do this despite the fact that AFD and RFAR are excluded in robots.txt - The risk of the page becoming the top hit in google was the only reason given for doing this, and that is no longer the case. If we continue doing this, these areas should be removed from robots.txt so that legitimate searches can include non-courtesy-blanked pages. — Random832 14:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this edit is a "change to the meaning of the clause." But it's not a major change. And it's also an improvement to newly inserted language, no reason to revert straight away. Anyway, let's discuss.
In my opinion the current (disputed) policy language (requiring an article "about" a term) is needlessly restrictive. Even the WP:NEO guideline is less restrictive ("such as ..."). For example, the article Dialogues on Bakhtin: Interdisciplinary Readings is not about the term logosphere. The current language says it can't be used because it contains only one paragraph about the meaning of "logosphere". Replacing "...about" with "described in..." solves that problem in a way similar to the "hoax" clause. The current language is also awkward, and longer than necessary. Avb 21:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
...because some of the reasons for deletion are fixable. I personally do not like admins who speedy delete pages on "lack of sources" or "redirect to nonexisitent page" because it looks like "delete first and fix later" to me. If it can be fixed, then fix it.
In short, some editors are too trigger happy with the delete button. -- 208.138.31.76 ( talk) 15:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
How does one find pages that have been deleted? I assume that Wikipedia stores these deleted versions, their talk pages, and deletion discussions somewhere. How does one find them? ---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 20:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
In many AfDs the outcome is a merger of the nominated article with some other article. Does undoing that merger and recreating the article require WP:DRV? I can't find any mention of that situation in the this policy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I've opened up a discussion discussing a change to the name and wording of WP:SNOW on its talk page. The discussion is found here. J-ſtan Contribs User page 19:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed a current AfD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University of the Philippines Astronomical Society. In spite of the title, this is actually an AfD for six allegedly non-notable clubs at the University of the Philippines, Dilman campus. No participant actually familiar with these clubs, and both willing and able to search Tagalog or other non-English sources for notability proof has shown up, and the season may mean that those who might otherwise do this do not have computer access.
At least some of the club articles have been edited by multiple editors. Deletion not only requires admin attention both to the AfD and to the delete process if Delete is the result, but also one of two additional problems: later admin attention to requests for the deleted articles, or, alternatively, users mystified at the disappearance of the article they were sure was there, when they return and notice it, which could take months.
Notability standards are often not clear in application, and I suspect that the only reason that there is not more difficult debate over notability is that the vast majority of editors don't notice the AfDs during the period before the notice is up. I've seen this with voting methods deletions; many of those articles were created by experts who have lives outside of Wikipedia, they may not even check watchlists at all, some of them, or others do use watchlists but may not log in frequently enough.
I'm proposing that the procedure of redirecting allegedly non-notable articles is far more efficient. In this case, the six club articles could be redirected to a master article for clubs on that campus, it already exists. The nominators for deletion could have done this with far less time than it took to set up an AfD. Indeed, I would simply have done it myself if not for the pending AfD, which asks that the article not be blanked (though a blanked article could be accessed from an AfD discussion by a link to history). With truly non-notable articles, in the vast majority of cases, the process would be *done*. Only if someone notices the deletion (and I'd put a notice on the Talk page of the redirection target), and objects, perhaps undoing it, does even discussion need to take place, and it becomes an editorial issue, which can often be resolved between two or a very few editors, without the Sword of Damocles of Deletion hanging over them. If, then, some party considers an AfD to be necessary, it can take place, and there will be more fair representation of all sides in it.
As Wikipedia increases in size, debates over notability, we can predict, will continue to increase. This would be a way to reduce administrator attention necessary to deal with deletions; so much so, that I'd want, were I an admninistrator, to see that redirection was tried first before I would even consider allowing an AfD. I've seen some suggest this in AfDs, with "non-admin closure" of the AfD when no objection appeared. We *must* find ways to reduce argument over AfDs, and this would be one. The other is what User:DGG has called a "clear bright line" for what is notable and what is not. I wish him luck. I don't think it is possible in a finite amount of time, notability is not a fixed quality of topics, it is actually a relationship between people and facts, and, just, as for individuals, notability shifts from time to time, so it is for societies, and each subculture has its own de facto notability standards. Which one or which set should dominate on Wikipedia and how do we figure it out?
The use of redirection is not appropriate for frivolous articles where there is no possible doubt regarding notability, nor, obviously, for articles with offensive or illegal content. These, indeed, probably don't require AfD either, PROD is sufficient, or direct admin action. Articles in the notability grey zone that are redirected might be deleted later, though I question whether or not it is worth the effort.
So, I'd like to see some discussion of this here, and, if some consensus appears, an addition of redirection to the policy as a recommended alternative to AfD, reserving AfD process for actual contention. (Redirection is already mentioned, but not in relation to AfD, I think.) The AfD I mentioned above, quite possibly, would have required no debate at all, especially if it were based on some clear guideline, and AfDs do *not* establish guidelines, they don't establish precedent at all, each AfD is unique. -- Abd ( talk) 20:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, is it just me, or should there be some sort of grace period for newly created articles before they can be nominated for deletion? I've seen pages nominated for deletion within an hour of the page first being posted, often for reasons involving the article not being complete enough. I feel that in these situations it is infinitely more productive to put a stub tag on the article, rather than simply deciding that the only pages allowed are ones which spring fully formed from the womb. As I understand it, the entire point of wiki magic is that if you simply tag an article as requiring improvement, and let it sit for a day or two, you'll have one of two things on your hands. An article that nobody cares about or a completely valid article of sufficient length and detail. Once you know that nobody cares about an article, I feel that that is the appropriate time to put it up for deletion, and if the article transforms into a better one, then there's no need to bother it further.-- 72.230.79.43 ( talk) 05:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
It seems to me that there needs to be a policy for courtesy blanking of arbitration-related pages if it is to become standard practice. Jfwambaugh 16:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The above referenced page and its contents are confusing to me. Could someone who understands the whole deletion process please take a look? I have tried this message elsewhere with no action. Thanks in advance! -- Stormbay 22:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've seen a handful of cases where cleanup templates were removed by noms for prod/csd, etc. Not something that really makes a lot of sense to me - is there a valid reason to do so? Not seeing one mentioned here, at first glance, and can't think of any myself. They seem to back up any nom. (Do they do so to excess?) MrZaius talk 15:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
something should be said that if you think the article needs improvement or could be improved, do not use afd. people are using afd to bully other people into improving articles or having those deleted. that is not a good use of deletion. it is not clear that it is not a good use of deletion on the page. it should say 'do not nominate articles that need improvement, if you can figure out how to make the article better, do that first' the deletion pages are full of things that have citations available, but people nominate for deletion. that's a problem because it deletes good work and good faith effort. -- Buridan 13:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this is a problem. But unfortunately I see lots of articles tagged on top and on bottom, and nobody rushes to address the iussues posted. Only the ultimate threat of deletion makes people move.
I would suggest a wider use of threatening tags of kind {{ notability}}, which explicitely warns that if the issues will not be addressed, the articler may be deleted. IMO the same explicite warning must be added to {{ unreferenced}} and others. ("unreferened" says: "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed." But if a template is placed onto the whole article, not on section, it must explicitely say that the whole article is a fair game for the AfD).
Also I would suggest to write explicitely in the policy that new artickles and articles significantly editied only by 1-3 editors (typo fixing, tagging, categorizing, etc. don't count), then the article should not be genetrally nominated for deletion without preceding warning, unless the article is really harmful for wikipedia.
Any thoughts? Mukadderat 22:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
An Admin used Speedy Deletion to delete my article. After I proved it did not quaillify for Speedy Deletion, he refused to undelete it. Here is a copy from his talk page. He has began to give petty replies and is tring to ignore the subject instead of admitting he jumped to the conclusion.
"I was told you deleted my article because you thought I was avertising it. It's a good book that I picked up off of Google books. What is wrong with making a page about it? -- JRTyner 02:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The article was about a book I bought off of Google books. The artlce took no sides, and didn't promote the book in any way, even though I thought it was interesting and funny. All of the other books I like already have a page, so I thought this would be a good subject for my first article. The page had no links or information on how to buy the book. I didn't even mention how I bought it. I had put a brief summary, a few facts the aurthor had mentioned in a news paper article and and listed on her website, plus the catagory. I had just added the publisher's name, the ISBN number, how long the book is, and a few other encyclopedic facts when it was deleted. -- JRTyner 02:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
-- JRTyner 18:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that what I am looking for is a third party to mediate so this disscusion won't become uncivil. -- JRTyner 18:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that the article must be restored, because Wikipedia:Notability (books) is a guideline, not a binding policy. This is one word against another. Admins do not have any editing privileges begore other wikipedians. The intolerance to a fellow wikipedian is a bad trait of an admin. Why don't you retore it, give the contributor a chance and then put for deletion? Mukadderat 22:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This case deserves to be discussed in the "Deletion policy" page. It is not the first time I see such hard intolerance to a newcomer. During a year I am an editor, wikipedia has notable shifted towards impatience and intolerance. What is it: new generation of admins? Fatifue of admins that are so tired that don't see to talk with other people? I think that Speedy Deletion has become quite misused. Even {{ prod}} taf is supposed to sit 5 days. But here click, surprize! Yo are dead! Speedy was intended to deal with utter garbage. Any minimally disputable cases must go via community. No one is allowed to feel an ultimate unbeatable judge. Mukadderat 22:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I just noticed that Wikipedia:Notability (books) in its first lines says failing to satisfy them is not a criterion for speedy deletion.. Also, CSD A7 lists "person, group of people, band, club, company, organisation, or web content", but not books, shops, electircal devices, brands, horse breeds, etc. It lists (and rightly so) only the most common vanity cases. Mukadderat 22:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Deletion review is the place to raise such matters. I would say, however, that it is overwhelmingly likely that even if the article was restored as an improper speedy deletion, it would be deleted if listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. -- Stormie 01:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I have 2 problems with deletions:
1. Often they appear very hasty and arbitrary: I have had an admittedly very brief article about a world-class academic deleted within ten seconds of my putting it up.
2. Once they have been deleted, it is difficult to get them reinstated or even to find the original copy. This can be v. frustrating esp. to new users. Also, I want now to start a new article (on 'xtimeline' as it happens). I find that there has been one before. I'd like to incorporate this into what I do now .... Where can I find it?
I'm frustrated too ... It happened to me many times that I completely lose the content of a whole article because I forgot I had to save it somewhere else everytime I hit the wikipedia save button. It is also very frustrating to see a 4 line licence decription on a picture being completely lost whitin 5 sec because of someone (I believe robot) got trigered.
Why is there so many confusing option to upload image that lead nowhere !!! but instant deletion !!! I decided my selfmade image would be used for non-commercial use and educative purposes,,, It's up to you,,, bye wiki... YOUR BLOATED ... Those are my today'$ donation$.
-- Transisto ( talk) 02:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Currently, Wikipedia:Guide to deletion states:
It is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion.
If this should be changed or deleted is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Guide to deletion#Deletion request notification. — Sebastian 20:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I want to revive an old discussion Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy/Archive_22#Why_make_deleted_pages_invisible.3F. I think it should be
possible somehow to see the content of a deleted page.
I agree that deleted pages
However, I think users should have access to the content, so they
The best way, I think, is to find a technical way how to satisfy all arguments above. Just a first idea, to have a interface which will email the content of the article at the users's request.
Turingsk 09:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible to delete users? IE vandals or inactive users? Hackboy1 17:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that a lot of AfD discussions (maybe most) are closed with the following comment: "The result was keep/delete," and nothing more. Those who participate in AfD discussions are asked to provide reasons for their recommendations. Shouldn't it also be standard practice for closing admins to report what the rationale for deleting or keeping an article was? If deciding whether to delete or keep an article were a simple matter of tallying keep and delete recommendations, a simple "The result was..." would be fine, but AfDs are supposed to be discussions, not votes, where arguments and policy count for more than numbers supporting or opposing a particular action. Stating the rationale(s) for deletion when closing an AfD is more consistent with the idea that it is a discussion rather than a vote; it can help editors better understand AfD precedents; and it can help editors understand whether a deleted article may or may not be re-created, and what issues must be addressed in order to avoid another deletion in case it is re-created. The alternative to this seems to me little better than a simple "Keep/Delete. ~~~~" from AfD participants. I realize admins have many responsibilities, and there may be AfD backlogs, but if admins are already taking the time to read and evaluate the arguments made in these discussions, typing a sentence in explanation of the decision adds a relatively neglible amount of time to the process. Nick Graves 21:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
There is an inconsistency in the fact that we still do this despite the fact that AFD and RFAR are excluded in robots.txt - The risk of the page becoming the top hit in google was the only reason given for doing this, and that is no longer the case. If we continue doing this, these areas should be removed from robots.txt so that legitimate searches can include non-courtesy-blanked pages. — Random832 14:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this edit is a "change to the meaning of the clause." But it's not a major change. And it's also an improvement to newly inserted language, no reason to revert straight away. Anyway, let's discuss.
In my opinion the current (disputed) policy language (requiring an article "about" a term) is needlessly restrictive. Even the WP:NEO guideline is less restrictive ("such as ..."). For example, the article Dialogues on Bakhtin: Interdisciplinary Readings is not about the term logosphere. The current language says it can't be used because it contains only one paragraph about the meaning of "logosphere". Replacing "...about" with "described in..." solves that problem in a way similar to the "hoax" clause. The current language is also awkward, and longer than necessary. Avb 21:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
...because some of the reasons for deletion are fixable. I personally do not like admins who speedy delete pages on "lack of sources" or "redirect to nonexisitent page" because it looks like "delete first and fix later" to me. If it can be fixed, then fix it.
In short, some editors are too trigger happy with the delete button. -- 208.138.31.76 ( talk) 15:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
How does one find pages that have been deleted? I assume that Wikipedia stores these deleted versions, their talk pages, and deletion discussions somewhere. How does one find them? ---- CharlesGillingham ( talk) 20:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
In many AfDs the outcome is a merger of the nominated article with some other article. Does undoing that merger and recreating the article require WP:DRV? I can't find any mention of that situation in the this policy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I've opened up a discussion discussing a change to the name and wording of WP:SNOW on its talk page. The discussion is found here. J-ſtan Contribs User page 19:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed a current AfD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University of the Philippines Astronomical Society. In spite of the title, this is actually an AfD for six allegedly non-notable clubs at the University of the Philippines, Dilman campus. No participant actually familiar with these clubs, and both willing and able to search Tagalog or other non-English sources for notability proof has shown up, and the season may mean that those who might otherwise do this do not have computer access.
At least some of the club articles have been edited by multiple editors. Deletion not only requires admin attention both to the AfD and to the delete process if Delete is the result, but also one of two additional problems: later admin attention to requests for the deleted articles, or, alternatively, users mystified at the disappearance of the article they were sure was there, when they return and notice it, which could take months.
Notability standards are often not clear in application, and I suspect that the only reason that there is not more difficult debate over notability is that the vast majority of editors don't notice the AfDs during the period before the notice is up. I've seen this with voting methods deletions; many of those articles were created by experts who have lives outside of Wikipedia, they may not even check watchlists at all, some of them, or others do use watchlists but may not log in frequently enough.
I'm proposing that the procedure of redirecting allegedly non-notable articles is far more efficient. In this case, the six club articles could be redirected to a master article for clubs on that campus, it already exists. The nominators for deletion could have done this with far less time than it took to set up an AfD. Indeed, I would simply have done it myself if not for the pending AfD, which asks that the article not be blanked (though a blanked article could be accessed from an AfD discussion by a link to history). With truly non-notable articles, in the vast majority of cases, the process would be *done*. Only if someone notices the deletion (and I'd put a notice on the Talk page of the redirection target), and objects, perhaps undoing it, does even discussion need to take place, and it becomes an editorial issue, which can often be resolved between two or a very few editors, without the Sword of Damocles of Deletion hanging over them. If, then, some party considers an AfD to be necessary, it can take place, and there will be more fair representation of all sides in it.
As Wikipedia increases in size, debates over notability, we can predict, will continue to increase. This would be a way to reduce administrator attention necessary to deal with deletions; so much so, that I'd want, were I an admninistrator, to see that redirection was tried first before I would even consider allowing an AfD. I've seen some suggest this in AfDs, with "non-admin closure" of the AfD when no objection appeared. We *must* find ways to reduce argument over AfDs, and this would be one. The other is what User:DGG has called a "clear bright line" for what is notable and what is not. I wish him luck. I don't think it is possible in a finite amount of time, notability is not a fixed quality of topics, it is actually a relationship between people and facts, and, just, as for individuals, notability shifts from time to time, so it is for societies, and each subculture has its own de facto notability standards. Which one or which set should dominate on Wikipedia and how do we figure it out?
The use of redirection is not appropriate for frivolous articles where there is no possible doubt regarding notability, nor, obviously, for articles with offensive or illegal content. These, indeed, probably don't require AfD either, PROD is sufficient, or direct admin action. Articles in the notability grey zone that are redirected might be deleted later, though I question whether or not it is worth the effort.
So, I'd like to see some discussion of this here, and, if some consensus appears, an addition of redirection to the policy as a recommended alternative to AfD, reserving AfD process for actual contention. (Redirection is already mentioned, but not in relation to AfD, I think.) The AfD I mentioned above, quite possibly, would have required no debate at all, especially if it were based on some clear guideline, and AfDs do *not* establish guidelines, they don't establish precedent at all, each AfD is unique. -- Abd ( talk) 20:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, is it just me, or should there be some sort of grace period for newly created articles before they can be nominated for deletion? I've seen pages nominated for deletion within an hour of the page first being posted, often for reasons involving the article not being complete enough. I feel that in these situations it is infinitely more productive to put a stub tag on the article, rather than simply deciding that the only pages allowed are ones which spring fully formed from the womb. As I understand it, the entire point of wiki magic is that if you simply tag an article as requiring improvement, and let it sit for a day or two, you'll have one of two things on your hands. An article that nobody cares about or a completely valid article of sufficient length and detail. Once you know that nobody cares about an article, I feel that that is the appropriate time to put it up for deletion, and if the article transforms into a better one, then there's no need to bother it further.-- 72.230.79.43 ( talk) 05:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)