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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
This is suppose to be a community based effort yet the Administrators of the site seem to have taken as extremely opressive and community un-friendly approach to management of the site. This oppressive state of affairs turns off potential contributors, such as myself, to attempting to participate in this community effort. It seems as if the deletion policy has grown out of necesity to protect the validity and relavance of the information provided through the use of wikipedia, but that due to the very nature of of ideolgy they are trying to protect, they have instead reach a critical point where they have begun to hasten the destruction of the sites usefulness as a community effort. If new articles posted by new users cannot be allowed to be goverened by the same users that participate in its creation, then what's the point? Subjectivity is running rampid in wikipedia and it's only going to get worse as the divion between community members grows. Wikipedia has ceised to be a community based project when the majority of conent can be selectively delete at will by it's administrators rather then through debate and discussion by the community at large. Perhaps this is a technical limitation of the software or perhaps it's just human nature to want to dominate others in whatever fashion is presented to you, if given the option to do so. In teh end, Wikipedia is failing to provide it's users with it's intended benefits. Zenasprime ( talk) 22:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Several articles are repeatedly nominated for deletion. Some editors feel that, if they don't get the answer they want the first time, just keep nominating until they do. I would like to see a minimum time limit between repeat nominations. Something like 3 months if the vote is no consensus and 6 or 12 months if the vote is keep. Any supporters? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 08:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I notice that the "problem articles" tables were recently readded on the basis that they are "really helpful". That may be the case, but they are also repetitive and bulky/unwieldy. I propose that we (1) move the tables to a subpage of Wikipedia:Deletion policy or create an essay titled Wikipedia:Handling problem articles or the like, (2) restore the prose that was removed, and (3) link to the subpage or essay in the (restored) "Alternatives to deletion" section. Would that be an acceptable compromise for all interested parties? -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any WP policy that deals with people deleting articles and making them redirect to another page? I've seen articles that have been nominated for deletion, survived the vote and then one individual user made the page redirect to another one. Is there no Wikipedia policy against this? Mglovesfun 17:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added the following statement to the section on deletion review:
We've had a few cases recently of people challenging speedies of stuff that obviously wouldn't pass AfD, and this is very much against the spirit of Wikipedia, in particular Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Rather than waste time on reviewing the deletion, as good Wikipedians we should just get cracking and write a proper sourced stub on the subject.
Of course we don't want editors going around deleting perfectly good articles, and of course it's appropriate to challenge the deletion of such articles, but it really isn't right to challenge the deletion of a really poor, brief, unsourced stub, when it's much easier and wastes less time to produce a good, well sourced stub in its place. -- Tony Sidaway 01:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am serious about the fact that many nominators and participants in AfDs assume they are exempt from WP:AGF merely because the are nominating or supporting an article they believ should be deleted. This is especially true of certain types of articles, such as pop-culture or trivia articles. I have created several such articles with good sources attesting to the notability of each item therein, but you would not know it from the comments in these AFDs. In addition, of the 5 or so articles I have participated in creating or editing that were AfDed, no nominator EVER approached me or the other editors involved to dicsuss the matter first. In several cases, I may have voluntarily removed the info had someone expressed their concerns first. Even though contacting editors first is recommended in the Deletion process as an step before filing an AfD. THese nominators assume that because they disagree with the "type" of article, they don't have to show common courtesies. THis week, an ediotor nominated an aircraft incident article that existed for only one minute, and still will not conceed that this was too soon. It seems obvious to me that such behavoir will continue until these policies are changed to make it clear that ALL editors on Wikipedia should exercise common courtesies, and asumme good faith, when deling with articles that are not obvious hoaxes or vandalsim of some form. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That's why we're urged to "assume" good faith. When it's possible the article has not been created in good faith, you should still "asssume" it was until proven otherwise. Again, you're not exempt from AGF just because you nominate AFDs. - BillCJ 07:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, members of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force have been accused of canvassing at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 July 7#Republic_Airlines_flight_4912_&_SkyWest_Airlines_flight_5741 by a number of editors, with the canvassing as one reason that a nomination should be relisted. However, the only "canvassing" that occurred was a notification placed on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force page. The task force is a group of editors dedicating to standardizing and managing coverage of avitaion-related incidents, including the current formulation of notability guidelines. These activities necessite an awareness of articles being nominated for AfD. In the past month, 3 other article nominated for AfD have been posted on the talk page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United Airlines Flight 897, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flight 952, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southwest Airlines Flight 1455. Two of these were deleted, as they were not notable, and on of those was a hoax. If canvassing has occured in this case, then the same canvassing occured with these three AfDs, and they should also be listed for review. However, I strongly contest the canvassing accusation, as, per WP:CANVASS, It is sometimes acceptable to contact a limited group of editors with regard to a specific issue as long as it does not become disruptive. While some may classify the group as "partisan", it does strive to be objective, as the other examples given illustrate. I see no reason why projects should not be informed of AfDs of articles within their subject. In fact, I would like to see notification of the concered projects formally allowed, if not made mandatory, and am proposing some form of that now. - BillCJ 17:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I like both of your ideas, but the seconding idea may need some sort of limit, such as requiring an admin to second it, as alot of regular nominators are familiar with each other from other nominations. I guess we just need to formulate a proposal here, and if there's no objection, go ahead and add it to the Policy. THEN we'll get the discussions going, with plenty of objections! :) - BillCJ 22:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here watch Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion? I've got a couple of points over there that I was hoping to get some feedback on. Thanks. Carcharoth 12:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It is time for this policy to lay out what can not be used as a rationale for deletion, otherwise we have nonstop AFD nominations made on absolutely bogus grounds. Since when have essays been sources of a rationale for deletion? That said, WP:Listcruft is used over and over again by abusers of the system. Why are votes that clearly are not grounded in any kind of policy or consensus counted on here? WP:POINT is meaningless anymore, as most of the regulars on AFD are guilty of it. I propose we make a section that states essays are not permissable rationale for deletion. I mean, if it is an essay it has no consensus. Given this reasoning, I could write an essay in a few minutes and just start nominating articles for deletion citing it. ( Mind meal 10:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC))
Sentence:(specific sections must always be mentioned when referring to WP:NOT as a rationale) to "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia" in the section WP:Deletion#Reasons_for_deletion.
RATIONALE:*Delete per WP:NOT, or Delete because the "article is not encyclopediac". If you spend any time at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, you would know that this rationale is constantly given by deletionists. The voter has basically provided no rationale, because they have yet to point out what policy is violated. WP:NOT exists only because of its sections. Outside of that, it is just a title. Obvious inclusion, and is far from this "instruction creep" stuff. One sentence is hardly unmanageable. ( Mind meal 12:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC))
Since you insisted on adding it for a third time, I must be the person to start the discussion apparently. I strongly object to the wording of that addition, because it is nothing more than instruction creep. Can you please remove it and try and get some consensus on this page before re-adding. This is a policy page and if someone objects to your change you should NOT just re add it. re-adding it twice is ridiculous. Read the tag at the top of the page. Viridae Talk 11:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussion above I would like to make a formal proposal to initiate discussion before deletion. Too many AfD's are based on faulty assumptions, or are so unfocused, that they are completely counter-productive. Also the issue of AfD's initiated just minutes after creation of an article needs to be addressed. Any editor who thinks an article needs to be deleted should make their concerns known on the article's talk page, and apply an appropriate tag first. Then the article would be eligible for AfD only after waiting a reasonable length of time (not to be specified explicitly) to allow others to participate in a discussion, and/or address the concerns by editing the article. This would not affect other types of deletion such as speedy or prod, because they have separate procedures that generally require prior notification on the article. But if they were contested, then a post to the talk page would be needed before moving to AfD. Because the AfD process takes a few days already, adding a day or two is not a big deal, and if it avoids unnecessary AfD's, or produces a more focused AfD discussion leading to consensus (either way) instead of no-consensus, then it is well worth the extra time. Editors who want to comment on the AfD can collect from the talk page additional data points on which to base their comments, rather than shooting from the hip, which will also help address the issue of early comments being contradicted by later comments. WP is supposed to be a collaborative project, and this would foster collaboration over confrontation in addressing article inclusion issues. Dhaluza 13:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh what bureaucratic nonsense! An AfD is a discussion. You want to make it mandatory now on Wikipedia to hold discussions about discussions? Bollocks! And since when do we hold silly bloody half-arsed votes on this talk page about major changes to deletion policy? -- Tony Sidaway 03:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
What is needed is more participation, and more intelligent participation in the existing methods. I'm at AfD a lot, and so is Tony--don't leave it up to us. come and propose improvements to articles. DGG ( talk) 06:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Er, guys? Policy is most definitely not created or amended by voting on them, so can we please cut out the bold-faced supports and opposes? Thanks. Other than this, you're alluding to a problem without citing evidence of that problem, and your "solution" basically consists of discussing things in two different places in sequence (the talk page, then AFD), so I fail to see how that is much of an improvement. Yes, some AFDs are misguided, but no, this issue is not solved by starting similarly misguided discussions in other places. >Radiant< 11:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
This is suppose to be a community based effort yet the Administrators of the site seem to have taken as extremely opressive and community un-friendly approach to management of the site. This oppressive state of affairs turns off potential contributors, such as myself, to attempting to participate in this community effort. It seems as if the deletion policy has grown out of necesity to protect the validity and relavance of the information provided through the use of wikipedia, but that due to the very nature of of ideolgy they are trying to protect, they have instead reach a critical point where they have begun to hasten the destruction of the sites usefulness as a community effort. If new articles posted by new users cannot be allowed to be goverened by the same users that participate in its creation, then what's the point? Subjectivity is running rampid in wikipedia and it's only going to get worse as the divion between community members grows. Wikipedia has ceised to be a community based project when the majority of conent can be selectively delete at will by it's administrators rather then through debate and discussion by the community at large. Perhaps this is a technical limitation of the software or perhaps it's just human nature to want to dominate others in whatever fashion is presented to you, if given the option to do so. In teh end, Wikipedia is failing to provide it's users with it's intended benefits. Zenasprime ( talk) 22:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Several articles are repeatedly nominated for deletion. Some editors feel that, if they don't get the answer they want the first time, just keep nominating until they do. I would like to see a minimum time limit between repeat nominations. Something like 3 months if the vote is no consensus and 6 or 12 months if the vote is keep. Any supporters? ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 08:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I notice that the "problem articles" tables were recently readded on the basis that they are "really helpful". That may be the case, but they are also repetitive and bulky/unwieldy. I propose that we (1) move the tables to a subpage of Wikipedia:Deletion policy or create an essay titled Wikipedia:Handling problem articles or the like, (2) restore the prose that was removed, and (3) link to the subpage or essay in the (restored) "Alternatives to deletion" section. Would that be an acceptable compromise for all interested parties? -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any WP policy that deals with people deleting articles and making them redirect to another page? I've seen articles that have been nominated for deletion, survived the vote and then one individual user made the page redirect to another one. Is there no Wikipedia policy against this? Mglovesfun 17:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added the following statement to the section on deletion review:
We've had a few cases recently of people challenging speedies of stuff that obviously wouldn't pass AfD, and this is very much against the spirit of Wikipedia, in particular Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Rather than waste time on reviewing the deletion, as good Wikipedians we should just get cracking and write a proper sourced stub on the subject.
Of course we don't want editors going around deleting perfectly good articles, and of course it's appropriate to challenge the deletion of such articles, but it really isn't right to challenge the deletion of a really poor, brief, unsourced stub, when it's much easier and wastes less time to produce a good, well sourced stub in its place. -- Tony Sidaway 01:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I am serious about the fact that many nominators and participants in AfDs assume they are exempt from WP:AGF merely because the are nominating or supporting an article they believ should be deleted. This is especially true of certain types of articles, such as pop-culture or trivia articles. I have created several such articles with good sources attesting to the notability of each item therein, but you would not know it from the comments in these AFDs. In addition, of the 5 or so articles I have participated in creating or editing that were AfDed, no nominator EVER approached me or the other editors involved to dicsuss the matter first. In several cases, I may have voluntarily removed the info had someone expressed their concerns first. Even though contacting editors first is recommended in the Deletion process as an step before filing an AfD. THese nominators assume that because they disagree with the "type" of article, they don't have to show common courtesies. THis week, an ediotor nominated an aircraft incident article that existed for only one minute, and still will not conceed that this was too soon. It seems obvious to me that such behavoir will continue until these policies are changed to make it clear that ALL editors on Wikipedia should exercise common courtesies, and asumme good faith, when deling with articles that are not obvious hoaxes or vandalsim of some form. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That's why we're urged to "assume" good faith. When it's possible the article has not been created in good faith, you should still "asssume" it was until proven otherwise. Again, you're not exempt from AGF just because you nominate AFDs. - BillCJ 07:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, members of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force have been accused of canvassing at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 July 7#Republic_Airlines_flight_4912_&_SkyWest_Airlines_flight_5741 by a number of editors, with the canvassing as one reason that a nomination should be relisted. However, the only "canvassing" that occurred was a notification placed on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force page. The task force is a group of editors dedicating to standardizing and managing coverage of avitaion-related incidents, including the current formulation of notability guidelines. These activities necessite an awareness of articles being nominated for AfD. In the past month, 3 other article nominated for AfD have been posted on the talk page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/United Airlines Flight 897, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flight 952, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southwest Airlines Flight 1455. Two of these were deleted, as they were not notable, and on of those was a hoax. If canvassing has occured in this case, then the same canvassing occured with these three AfDs, and they should also be listed for review. However, I strongly contest the canvassing accusation, as, per WP:CANVASS, It is sometimes acceptable to contact a limited group of editors with regard to a specific issue as long as it does not become disruptive. While some may classify the group as "partisan", it does strive to be objective, as the other examples given illustrate. I see no reason why projects should not be informed of AfDs of articles within their subject. In fact, I would like to see notification of the concered projects formally allowed, if not made mandatory, and am proposing some form of that now. - BillCJ 17:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I like both of your ideas, but the seconding idea may need some sort of limit, such as requiring an admin to second it, as alot of regular nominators are familiar with each other from other nominations. I guess we just need to formulate a proposal here, and if there's no objection, go ahead and add it to the Policy. THEN we'll get the discussions going, with plenty of objections! :) - BillCJ 22:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here watch Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion? I've got a couple of points over there that I was hoping to get some feedback on. Thanks. Carcharoth 12:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It is time for this policy to lay out what can not be used as a rationale for deletion, otherwise we have nonstop AFD nominations made on absolutely bogus grounds. Since when have essays been sources of a rationale for deletion? That said, WP:Listcruft is used over and over again by abusers of the system. Why are votes that clearly are not grounded in any kind of policy or consensus counted on here? WP:POINT is meaningless anymore, as most of the regulars on AFD are guilty of it. I propose we make a section that states essays are not permissable rationale for deletion. I mean, if it is an essay it has no consensus. Given this reasoning, I could write an essay in a few minutes and just start nominating articles for deletion citing it. ( Mind meal 10:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC))
Sentence:(specific sections must always be mentioned when referring to WP:NOT as a rationale) to "Content not suitable for an encyclopedia" in the section WP:Deletion#Reasons_for_deletion.
RATIONALE:*Delete per WP:NOT, or Delete because the "article is not encyclopediac". If you spend any time at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, you would know that this rationale is constantly given by deletionists. The voter has basically provided no rationale, because they have yet to point out what policy is violated. WP:NOT exists only because of its sections. Outside of that, it is just a title. Obvious inclusion, and is far from this "instruction creep" stuff. One sentence is hardly unmanageable. ( Mind meal 12:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC))
Since you insisted on adding it for a third time, I must be the person to start the discussion apparently. I strongly object to the wording of that addition, because it is nothing more than instruction creep. Can you please remove it and try and get some consensus on this page before re-adding. This is a policy page and if someone objects to your change you should NOT just re add it. re-adding it twice is ridiculous. Read the tag at the top of the page. Viridae Talk 11:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussion above I would like to make a formal proposal to initiate discussion before deletion. Too many AfD's are based on faulty assumptions, or are so unfocused, that they are completely counter-productive. Also the issue of AfD's initiated just minutes after creation of an article needs to be addressed. Any editor who thinks an article needs to be deleted should make their concerns known on the article's talk page, and apply an appropriate tag first. Then the article would be eligible for AfD only after waiting a reasonable length of time (not to be specified explicitly) to allow others to participate in a discussion, and/or address the concerns by editing the article. This would not affect other types of deletion such as speedy or prod, because they have separate procedures that generally require prior notification on the article. But if they were contested, then a post to the talk page would be needed before moving to AfD. Because the AfD process takes a few days already, adding a day or two is not a big deal, and if it avoids unnecessary AfD's, or produces a more focused AfD discussion leading to consensus (either way) instead of no-consensus, then it is well worth the extra time. Editors who want to comment on the AfD can collect from the talk page additional data points on which to base their comments, rather than shooting from the hip, which will also help address the issue of early comments being contradicted by later comments. WP is supposed to be a collaborative project, and this would foster collaboration over confrontation in addressing article inclusion issues. Dhaluza 13:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh what bureaucratic nonsense! An AfD is a discussion. You want to make it mandatory now on Wikipedia to hold discussions about discussions? Bollocks! And since when do we hold silly bloody half-arsed votes on this talk page about major changes to deletion policy? -- Tony Sidaway 03:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
What is needed is more participation, and more intelligent participation in the existing methods. I'm at AfD a lot, and so is Tony--don't leave it up to us. come and propose improvements to articles. DGG ( talk) 06:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Er, guys? Policy is most definitely not created or amended by voting on them, so can we please cut out the bold-faced supports and opposes? Thanks. Other than this, you're alluding to a problem without citing evidence of that problem, and your "solution" basically consists of discussing things in two different places in sequence (the talk page, then AFD), so I fail to see how that is much of an improvement. Yes, some AFDs are misguided, but no, this issue is not solved by starting similarly misguided discussions in other places. >Radiant< 11:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)