Old discussion archived at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/Archive.
Please read it. I'm sorry if this turned out longer than intended, but a lot of people came with a lot of suitable ideas, and several of the more unfeasible ones have already been removed. Take your time, it's open for two weeks so you can vote on one proposal daily if you want, giving you plenty of time to consider it. Thanks for the bandwidth :) R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 15:14 (UTC)
I realized that one proposal was missing for a frequently VFD'ed type of article, and that would be neologisms. Only I can't think of a feasible way to word that since it's often impossible to tell from an article (other than for an expert) whether it's a neologism or a jargon term. R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 21:29 (UTC)
By the way, though I haven't seen anyone do it yet, I'd say conditional voting is perfectly fine for a large proposal as this (e.g. "I support #5 iff #8 passes and #3 fails"). I promise to sort out any such votes if the need arises (though I doubt they'd get that complex :) ). R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 21:29 (UTC)
This is a symptom of a badly-prepared proposal vote. -- Netoholic @ 5 July 2005 00:30 (UTC)
User:Radiant! made several changes to the proposals after the voting has begun, in contrast to the the instruction at the top of the page - "Please do not change the wording of this page.". He also, in at least one vote, has striked out almost all the votes.
I find this, and his subsequent revert warring, in extremely poor form. I have suggested already to him that he should simply wait for the voting to conclude, and then fix whatever went wrong here. We cannot expect voters to judge a "moving target".
I ask that others agree, and restore this vote to the version it was at the start of voting. Of course, spelling corrections are fine, but rewording the CSD proposals and additions of creative "bolding" or examples should be left out, since those are being used by the proposers. -- Netoholic @ 5 July 2005 09:04 (UTC)
I am voting to oppose all proposed changes in policy until this is irrevocably fixed. Any policy changes made in light of such a tainted election cannot be seem as legitimate. If serious measures are not taken to stop User:Radiant!'s tampering, I will be the first of three voters to request the revote one month later on that grounds alone. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:22 (UTC)
Maybe you should have gotten everything together before the vote started, just like any other organization that takes itself seriously. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:50 (UTC)
(copied from Philwelch's talk page since it's relevant here R adiant _>|< July 5, 2005 12:04 (UTC))
No, you don't understand the principle. Wikipedia is a world-class organization that has to take itself seriously here, and any properly-run election that takes itself seriously does not change the wording of what is being voted on during the middle of a vote. You screwed it up. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:39 (UTC)
Are we actually having a vote? I'd no idea. I thought we were still discussing the proposals and airing several objections. I haven't seen my objections satisfied. This doesn't mean we can't have a vote until I change my mind, of course, but I am just a little surprised. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 5 July 2005 14:20 (UTC)
I think it's been over two weeks at least since I commented on this. I still see what I regard as utterly absurd presumptions being made:
I don't understand the point of making the rules this strict. As far as I remember, speedy deletion rules have been bent by the admins. — Bcat ( talk | email) 5 July 2005 14:43 (UTC)
I really strongly question this claim that we can reliably characterize articles that come up for discussion and always make deletion, except trivial cases like the age limit, which would be learned by trolls and circumvented. I just don't see it. I've seen some very famous people listed for deletion as "not notable" and "vanity", and these articles should never on any account be made speedy material. One person cannot be expected to know everything. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 5 July 2005 17:39 (UTC)
An article that says " Charlie Hurley was born in 1936 and played centre-back" wouldn't tell you that Charlie Hurley was a first class player and a member of the Irish international squad, played for Sunderland, was voted their Player of the Century on their centennial, and went on to manage Reading F.C.. But it still contains useful information and a started for someone who might not even have thought of writing a piece on Hurley. There is more to a person than what someone else might consider "notable". We've seen heads of Fortune 500 companies listed for deletion because someone thought they were not notable. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 5 July 2005 18:33 (UTC)
The fundamental reason that 24 votes have been thrown upon us all of a sudden (this proposal may have existed for weeks, but it was poorly linked, so for most of us it was all of a sudden) is because "vfd is too busy".
There is nothing about the above that I disagree with. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 16:52 (UTC)
Nor do I disagree in principle. But what is your proposed alternative process? (The only actionable proposal I see is a recommendation to change the wording from "vote" to "poll" - which I doubt will really resolve your core concerns.) Previous attempts to update the CSD cases using other means have been instantly reverted. Anyone being bold gets a nasty comment about "changes made without discussion". Attempts to start a discussion on the CSD Talk page get largely ignored. This is imperfect but it seems to be the only way that the community will allow anything more than the most minor of wording changes to the cases. What process do you recommend? Rossami (talk) 7 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)
User:Tony Sidaway added proposal P! to deal with the issue of articels that fail to assert notability, but are in fact about notable subjects. This proposal adds a waiting period and a new category to alert people to the impendign deletion of such articles.
User:Netoholic citing This proposal is open for voting, as described below. Voting will close on July 19, 2005 15:11 (UTC). Please do not change the wording of this page. reverted the additiom of thsi proposal.
I think the above wording is intended to prevent changing the text of a proposal in mid-vote, but not adding new proposals to a multi-proposal package such as this. Proposals 3-B, 3-C and Z have already been added to thsi package after the vote opened, and no one reverted thsoe additions. I propose to revert User:Netoholic's revert, but I wanted to explain here what I was doign and why, first. DES 7 July 2005 15:26 (UTC)
I moved this whole proposal to Wikipedia:Countdown deletion/Revised proposal. The proponents even admit it has nothing to do with speedy deletion, and there is still a LOT of work needed on it. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)
I've closed this vote. It started off wrong, and only got worse, with wording changes being made after voting and additions of new convoluted proposals. The format is a mess, and we cannot trust any result.
I do think there is enough feedback gathered already to make some progress. The really bad ideas failed miserably, and the good ones can be made better with the voter comments. I'll be looking this over and probably be making some recommendations. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 21:14 (UTC)
Since it's apparent that this whole thing is a horrible mess and that no one seems to agree on anything, I've protected it. There will be no voting until you guys come to some kind of agreement as to what this page should or should not say.
I agree in principle with Netoholic, that it's a very bad idea to have people changing proposals in the middle of voting. I don't think unilaterally declaring the vote closed was the best idea, but he's got a valid complaint - how can people vote for something if the next day it says something different? If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion, I think the best course of action would be to open the floor to suggestions and proposals (to allow people to make new suggestions and fine-tune current ones), and say that voting will begin at such-and-such an hour on such-and-such a date after which there will be no modifications allowed. →Raul654 July 7, 2005 21:33 (UTC)
Ok, I didn't realize that there were like 20 subpages many of which already have dozens of votes. I'm going to wave this one off, and let it go ahead and set up. Netoholic - don't stop the voting. →Raul654 July 7, 2005 21:44 (UTC)
I would like to point out that discussion of Ways We Could Improve VfD has been ongoing essentially since the beginning of the project. The CSD were adopted, IIRC, a little over a year ago, and there have been some tweaks to the amount of time an article stays on VfD, and a few CSD added and tweaked, and so on. Discussion has been ongoing throughout this process. Though these proposals with their particular wording have perhaps not been discussed, none of the ideas here is new.
I believe that Radiant is to be commended for forcing some sort of closure on these issues and I am pleased that at least some of the proposals have drawn a measure of support.
The Uninvited Co., Inc. 8 July 2005 03:53 (UTC)
The major reason for caution with Deletion and Speedy Deletion is precisely that deleted articles are gone and therefore the decisions are unreviewable by most editors. (I have considered requesting some form of admin status mostly to be able to see deleted articles.)
I therefore put forth the suggestion:
I can hear the responce now: "<arrgh> That's just an invitation for the dweeb to repost it!"
But I think that's a non-problem, for two reasons:
I await revision, and would have no objection to a time limit, if there is a storage question Septentrionalis 21:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Just a thought, but why not trim down the votes for deletion page by hiving off any articles of three paragraphs or less onto a stubs for deletion page, and make the VfD page an articles for deletion page? Hiding 21:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The Proposals section states "Anonymous votes will be discounted, as will votes cast by any user that had less than 250 edits when this vote started." People who don't read proposals like this one carefully enough annoy me, and I noticed a fair number of them, so I wrote up some javascript to simplify checking when a user's 250th edit was. When in place, it replaces links to user pages from ordered lists (# in wikisyntax) on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal's subpages with links of the form http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=250&go=first&target=Cryptic, which show the user's first 250 edits (with the last of those, i.e. their 250th, at the top). I've also gone through the votes already cast and noted those that my tool turned up.
There are a couple caveats, though:
If you're reading this because I've marked your vote, please don't be offended if it doesn't actually apply to you due to one of the caveats above (particularly 4, 5, and 6); just say so and move on. — Cryptic (talk) 07:57, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to the concerns raised above,
Wikipedia:Arbitration_policy/Proposed_amendment_ratification_vote. This is just for the record, as the outcome of this proposal is the same (give or take a percent) whether or not the votes below suffrage level are to be accepted or not. R adiant _>|< 13:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
In response to the objections and weak support votes for the test run, I suggest we introduce a modified test run proposal:
Test Run B.1: New criteria stays enforced for up to a minimum time of 1 week up to a maximum time of 10 weeks dependent on the leftover popular percentage over 70%.
To figure the popularity factor:
1. Subtract 70 from the final percentage in favor. ex. for an 80% in favor vote, take 80-70=10
2. Divide remainder by 30. ex. 10/30 = 33%.
3. Round to the nearest week. ex. 33% of the maximum of 10 weeks is 3 weeks. The popularity factor for an 80% approval forces a 3 week test run before a recall can be initiated.
With 75% of the vote, there is a 16% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a 2 week testing time.
With 80% of the vote, there is a 33% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a three week testing time.
With 85% of the vote, there is a 50% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a five week testing time.
With 90% of the vote, there is a 66% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a seven week testing time.
With 95% of the vote, there is an 83% additional popularity factor, new criteria has an eight week testing time.
Test Run B.2: A revote can only be called for when the test run is complete, and the number of requests match or exceed 10% of the number of vote originally tallied.
Example1: a criteria passed and 100 total people voted. 10 people would be needed to force a revote after the test run.
Example2: a criteria passed and 250 total people voted. 25 people would be needed to force a revote after the test run.
What do you guys think? Can this be added to the list of proposals?
- Inigmatus 16:45, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I didn't see even one attempt at consensus during the six weeks of discussion. Did I overlook something?
The proper way to do such things is to propose a consensus among those interested enough to follow the decision. Then, if there are objections, address them, and improve the proposed consensus until all active participants have come to some statements they can live with. Inactive participants frequently have their objections addressed by those participating, or trust that some active participants they are familiar with will represent their views well enough.
After finding consensus among the active users, you have reason enough to be bold and edit the policy. If others object at this time, revert, and bring them into discussion and attempt to address their concerns, but otherwise, see how things run under the new guidelines for a while. Then address the next item on the list. For the items you cannot get full consensus on, you get as close as you can, then propose a vote, and seek consensus on holding a vote (usually not difficult), and then hold a vote, one issue at a time to encourage discussion.
This mass voting is nearly 100% contrary to Wikipedia principles because it bypasses discussion and compromise (see: "don't change the wording while the vote is in progress"). It promotes a winners/losers mentality that doesn't belong here except when absolutely necessary (such as the Board of Trustees elections). Un focused 06:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't really know what to do with it, so I guess I'll add it here. All ordinary elementary and secondary schools where a well-known encyclopedic event did not occur or that do not have any famous alumni or is not especially historically significant to a particular locale. I don't know if I would support this resolution. I'm proposing in an effort to get a definitive and final answer about the inclusion of elementary and secondary schools. They have been consistently nominated for deletion on VfD and have usually been kept. There is also Wikipedia:Schools, but it has not been adopted and doesn't look like it's being seriously considered for adoption. Maybe this isn't the right place to do this, and I don't expect that it will be the final step in a solid policy about schools, but I think it's step toward that. Maybe it can be used as a solid policy. That'd be cool. Cookiecaper 20:24, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes I do not expect it to pass. If it does we can eliminate most non-post-secondary school articles. If it does not we can assume that schools are notable just by being. This is what I'm hoping to accomplish here. Maybe it is wrong. Pssh man I shouldn't even try. Cookiecaper 21:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Isn't the "inactive tag" inapprpropriate given that some votes are still ongoing until a later deadline? Xoloz 10:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Old discussion archived at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal/Archive.
Please read it. I'm sorry if this turned out longer than intended, but a lot of people came with a lot of suitable ideas, and several of the more unfeasible ones have already been removed. Take your time, it's open for two weeks so you can vote on one proposal daily if you want, giving you plenty of time to consider it. Thanks for the bandwidth :) R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 15:14 (UTC)
I realized that one proposal was missing for a frequently VFD'ed type of article, and that would be neologisms. Only I can't think of a feasible way to word that since it's often impossible to tell from an article (other than for an expert) whether it's a neologism or a jargon term. R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 21:29 (UTC)
By the way, though I haven't seen anyone do it yet, I'd say conditional voting is perfectly fine for a large proposal as this (e.g. "I support #5 iff #8 passes and #3 fails"). I promise to sort out any such votes if the need arises (though I doubt they'd get that complex :) ). R adiant _>|< July 4, 2005 21:29 (UTC)
This is a symptom of a badly-prepared proposal vote. -- Netoholic @ 5 July 2005 00:30 (UTC)
User:Radiant! made several changes to the proposals after the voting has begun, in contrast to the the instruction at the top of the page - "Please do not change the wording of this page.". He also, in at least one vote, has striked out almost all the votes.
I find this, and his subsequent revert warring, in extremely poor form. I have suggested already to him that he should simply wait for the voting to conclude, and then fix whatever went wrong here. We cannot expect voters to judge a "moving target".
I ask that others agree, and restore this vote to the version it was at the start of voting. Of course, spelling corrections are fine, but rewording the CSD proposals and additions of creative "bolding" or examples should be left out, since those are being used by the proposers. -- Netoholic @ 5 July 2005 09:04 (UTC)
I am voting to oppose all proposed changes in policy until this is irrevocably fixed. Any policy changes made in light of such a tainted election cannot be seem as legitimate. If serious measures are not taken to stop User:Radiant!'s tampering, I will be the first of three voters to request the revote one month later on that grounds alone. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:22 (UTC)
Maybe you should have gotten everything together before the vote started, just like any other organization that takes itself seriously. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:50 (UTC)
(copied from Philwelch's talk page since it's relevant here R adiant _>|< July 5, 2005 12:04 (UTC))
No, you don't understand the principle. Wikipedia is a world-class organization that has to take itself seriously here, and any properly-run election that takes itself seriously does not change the wording of what is being voted on during the middle of a vote. You screwed it up. — Phil Welch 5 July 2005 10:39 (UTC)
Are we actually having a vote? I'd no idea. I thought we were still discussing the proposals and airing several objections. I haven't seen my objections satisfied. This doesn't mean we can't have a vote until I change my mind, of course, but I am just a little surprised. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 5 July 2005 14:20 (UTC)
I think it's been over two weeks at least since I commented on this. I still see what I regard as utterly absurd presumptions being made:
I don't understand the point of making the rules this strict. As far as I remember, speedy deletion rules have been bent by the admins. — Bcat ( talk | email) 5 July 2005 14:43 (UTC)
I really strongly question this claim that we can reliably characterize articles that come up for discussion and always make deletion, except trivial cases like the age limit, which would be learned by trolls and circumvented. I just don't see it. I've seen some very famous people listed for deletion as "not notable" and "vanity", and these articles should never on any account be made speedy material. One person cannot be expected to know everything. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 5 July 2005 17:39 (UTC)
An article that says " Charlie Hurley was born in 1936 and played centre-back" wouldn't tell you that Charlie Hurley was a first class player and a member of the Irish international squad, played for Sunderland, was voted their Player of the Century on their centennial, and went on to manage Reading F.C.. But it still contains useful information and a started for someone who might not even have thought of writing a piece on Hurley. There is more to a person than what someone else might consider "notable". We've seen heads of Fortune 500 companies listed for deletion because someone thought they were not notable. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 5 July 2005 18:33 (UTC)
The fundamental reason that 24 votes have been thrown upon us all of a sudden (this proposal may have existed for weeks, but it was poorly linked, so for most of us it was all of a sudden) is because "vfd is too busy".
There is nothing about the above that I disagree with. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 16:52 (UTC)
Nor do I disagree in principle. But what is your proposed alternative process? (The only actionable proposal I see is a recommendation to change the wording from "vote" to "poll" - which I doubt will really resolve your core concerns.) Previous attempts to update the CSD cases using other means have been instantly reverted. Anyone being bold gets a nasty comment about "changes made without discussion". Attempts to start a discussion on the CSD Talk page get largely ignored. This is imperfect but it seems to be the only way that the community will allow anything more than the most minor of wording changes to the cases. What process do you recommend? Rossami (talk) 7 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)
User:Tony Sidaway added proposal P! to deal with the issue of articels that fail to assert notability, but are in fact about notable subjects. This proposal adds a waiting period and a new category to alert people to the impendign deletion of such articles.
User:Netoholic citing This proposal is open for voting, as described below. Voting will close on July 19, 2005 15:11 (UTC). Please do not change the wording of this page. reverted the additiom of thsi proposal.
I think the above wording is intended to prevent changing the text of a proposal in mid-vote, but not adding new proposals to a multi-proposal package such as this. Proposals 3-B, 3-C and Z have already been added to thsi package after the vote opened, and no one reverted thsoe additions. I propose to revert User:Netoholic's revert, but I wanted to explain here what I was doign and why, first. DES 7 July 2005 15:26 (UTC)
I moved this whole proposal to Wikipedia:Countdown deletion/Revised proposal. The proponents even admit it has nothing to do with speedy deletion, and there is still a LOT of work needed on it. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 20:23 (UTC)
I've closed this vote. It started off wrong, and only got worse, with wording changes being made after voting and additions of new convoluted proposals. The format is a mess, and we cannot trust any result.
I do think there is enough feedback gathered already to make some progress. The really bad ideas failed miserably, and the good ones can be made better with the voter comments. I'll be looking this over and probably be making some recommendations. -- Netoholic @ 7 July 2005 21:14 (UTC)
Since it's apparent that this whole thing is a horrible mess and that no one seems to agree on anything, I've protected it. There will be no voting until you guys come to some kind of agreement as to what this page should or should not say.
I agree in principle with Netoholic, that it's a very bad idea to have people changing proposals in the middle of voting. I don't think unilaterally declaring the vote closed was the best idea, but he's got a valid complaint - how can people vote for something if the next day it says something different? If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion, I think the best course of action would be to open the floor to suggestions and proposals (to allow people to make new suggestions and fine-tune current ones), and say that voting will begin at such-and-such an hour on such-and-such a date after which there will be no modifications allowed. →Raul654 July 7, 2005 21:33 (UTC)
Ok, I didn't realize that there were like 20 subpages many of which already have dozens of votes. I'm going to wave this one off, and let it go ahead and set up. Netoholic - don't stop the voting. →Raul654 July 7, 2005 21:44 (UTC)
I would like to point out that discussion of Ways We Could Improve VfD has been ongoing essentially since the beginning of the project. The CSD were adopted, IIRC, a little over a year ago, and there have been some tweaks to the amount of time an article stays on VfD, and a few CSD added and tweaked, and so on. Discussion has been ongoing throughout this process. Though these proposals with their particular wording have perhaps not been discussed, none of the ideas here is new.
I believe that Radiant is to be commended for forcing some sort of closure on these issues and I am pleased that at least some of the proposals have drawn a measure of support.
The Uninvited Co., Inc. 8 July 2005 03:53 (UTC)
The major reason for caution with Deletion and Speedy Deletion is precisely that deleted articles are gone and therefore the decisions are unreviewable by most editors. (I have considered requesting some form of admin status mostly to be able to see deleted articles.)
I therefore put forth the suggestion:
I can hear the responce now: "<arrgh> That's just an invitation for the dweeb to repost it!"
But I think that's a non-problem, for two reasons:
I await revision, and would have no objection to a time limit, if there is a storage question Septentrionalis 21:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Just a thought, but why not trim down the votes for deletion page by hiving off any articles of three paragraphs or less onto a stubs for deletion page, and make the VfD page an articles for deletion page? Hiding 21:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The Proposals section states "Anonymous votes will be discounted, as will votes cast by any user that had less than 250 edits when this vote started." People who don't read proposals like this one carefully enough annoy me, and I noticed a fair number of them, so I wrote up some javascript to simplify checking when a user's 250th edit was. When in place, it replaces links to user pages from ordered lists (# in wikisyntax) on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Proposal's subpages with links of the form http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Contributions&limit=250&go=first&target=Cryptic, which show the user's first 250 edits (with the last of those, i.e. their 250th, at the top). I've also gone through the votes already cast and noted those that my tool turned up.
There are a couple caveats, though:
If you're reading this because I've marked your vote, please don't be offended if it doesn't actually apply to you due to one of the caveats above (particularly 4, 5, and 6); just say so and move on. — Cryptic (talk) 07:57, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
In response to the concerns raised above,
Wikipedia:Arbitration_policy/Proposed_amendment_ratification_vote. This is just for the record, as the outcome of this proposal is the same (give or take a percent) whether or not the votes below suffrage level are to be accepted or not. R adiant _>|< 13:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
In response to the objections and weak support votes for the test run, I suggest we introduce a modified test run proposal:
Test Run B.1: New criteria stays enforced for up to a minimum time of 1 week up to a maximum time of 10 weeks dependent on the leftover popular percentage over 70%.
To figure the popularity factor:
1. Subtract 70 from the final percentage in favor. ex. for an 80% in favor vote, take 80-70=10
2. Divide remainder by 30. ex. 10/30 = 33%.
3. Round to the nearest week. ex. 33% of the maximum of 10 weeks is 3 weeks. The popularity factor for an 80% approval forces a 3 week test run before a recall can be initiated.
With 75% of the vote, there is a 16% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a 2 week testing time.
With 80% of the vote, there is a 33% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a three week testing time.
With 85% of the vote, there is a 50% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a five week testing time.
With 90% of the vote, there is a 66% additional popularity factor, new criteria has a seven week testing time.
With 95% of the vote, there is an 83% additional popularity factor, new criteria has an eight week testing time.
Test Run B.2: A revote can only be called for when the test run is complete, and the number of requests match or exceed 10% of the number of vote originally tallied.
Example1: a criteria passed and 100 total people voted. 10 people would be needed to force a revote after the test run.
Example2: a criteria passed and 250 total people voted. 25 people would be needed to force a revote after the test run.
What do you guys think? Can this be added to the list of proposals?
- Inigmatus 16:45, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I didn't see even one attempt at consensus during the six weeks of discussion. Did I overlook something?
The proper way to do such things is to propose a consensus among those interested enough to follow the decision. Then, if there are objections, address them, and improve the proposed consensus until all active participants have come to some statements they can live with. Inactive participants frequently have their objections addressed by those participating, or trust that some active participants they are familiar with will represent their views well enough.
After finding consensus among the active users, you have reason enough to be bold and edit the policy. If others object at this time, revert, and bring them into discussion and attempt to address their concerns, but otherwise, see how things run under the new guidelines for a while. Then address the next item on the list. For the items you cannot get full consensus on, you get as close as you can, then propose a vote, and seek consensus on holding a vote (usually not difficult), and then hold a vote, one issue at a time to encourage discussion.
This mass voting is nearly 100% contrary to Wikipedia principles because it bypasses discussion and compromise (see: "don't change the wording while the vote is in progress"). It promotes a winners/losers mentality that doesn't belong here except when absolutely necessary (such as the Board of Trustees elections). Un focused 06:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't really know what to do with it, so I guess I'll add it here. All ordinary elementary and secondary schools where a well-known encyclopedic event did not occur or that do not have any famous alumni or is not especially historically significant to a particular locale. I don't know if I would support this resolution. I'm proposing in an effort to get a definitive and final answer about the inclusion of elementary and secondary schools. They have been consistently nominated for deletion on VfD and have usually been kept. There is also Wikipedia:Schools, but it has not been adopted and doesn't look like it's being seriously considered for adoption. Maybe this isn't the right place to do this, and I don't expect that it will be the final step in a solid policy about schools, but I think it's step toward that. Maybe it can be used as a solid policy. That'd be cool. Cookiecaper 20:24, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes I do not expect it to pass. If it does we can eliminate most non-post-secondary school articles. If it does not we can assume that schools are notable just by being. This is what I'm hoping to accomplish here. Maybe it is wrong. Pssh man I shouldn't even try. Cookiecaper 21:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Isn't the "inactive tag" inapprpropriate given that some votes are still ongoing until a later deadline? Xoloz 10:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)