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I don't think it's about individual experience as much as it is being able to credibly verify the source of the information, to possibly designate that you know a substantial amount in a particular field enough to VERIFY existing information without adding original research.-- RWilliamKing 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
No one has ever said anything like that. Wild hysteria over the attack of the straw men.
If I wanted to fill Wikipedia with disinformation, I wouldn't claim I'm a professor. Instead, I'd start falsely citing books (preferably non-English) which few libraries have, and thus which are hugely difficult to check. I'd then start bitching about the "elitism" of the professor who knows that I'm wrong, that after all being his job, but doesn't have the reference which I've purposefully chosen to be obscure. Further, I'd fill it with such odd disinformation that no standard reference rebuts it, because it's just too weird to bother with. The cherry on my triumph would be getting the professor blocked under the Wikipedia:Credential ban. I would laugh & laugh & laugh. That is, if I were actually a troll, rather than a professor. Derex 01:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.
Referring to your degree to win a dispute does not match this meaning, so it should be changed accordingly. Thanks! -- WikiSlasher 06:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Or, "I don't hold a Ph.D., you should read my c.v. anyways." The fact of the matter is a bona fide expert is much less likely to make an "honest mistake" in his field of expertise than a non-expert. Where a non-expert might cite sources such as newspaper articles which turn out to be wrong, an expert will notice the source material is not correct and not cite it. In the event of an edit war over such a citation, an expert saying "the original source is wrong and here is why" will have more credence than a non-expert saying "the original source is wrong and here is why," assuming both "why's" sound equally credible. In such instance, someone posting "I have a Ph.D. in the matter" or "I've spent the last 5 years researching this very topic" on the flame-war-article's Talk page with more details and proof on their user page is not out of order. Davidwr 21:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have two remarks after reading the essay.
Jitse Niesen ( talk) 10:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As I have repeatedly stated on Jimbo's talk page, I am still ambivalent about this proposal, for many reasons. But this essay and all of the related posts elsewhere make several false assumptions.
A final point. I would like to condemn the strongly anti-intellectual flavor that I see in this essay and in other posts regarding this issue. To disregard the years of study that have gone into advanced degrees is insulting to those of us who have spent our lives in academic endeavors. We have also spent years teaching other people (often for tiny amounts of money, I might add). I would be surprised if the writers of this essay and those defending its ideas so staunchly elsewhere would really adhere to this policy in the real world: would they go to a doctor who hasn't been to medical school but who has read all of the books? I mean, that's just as good, right? Awadewit 11:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, I'll move the title ASAP. I also thought a little more about your earlier points. This is going off-topic a bit, but isn't it slightly dismissive to say that creationist viewpoints "are not science" and that a degree in theology is "not a credential"? I know very little about the natural sciences myself, and comparatively little about theology (my own field is politics), but from a political perspective I am aware that creationism/ intelligent design theory is promoted as a science by some American scientists, particularly those in the "Bible belt". As to a degree in theology, how is that not a credential when editing articles about religion and religious philosophy? Although it doesn't detract from the validity of your point about the utility of credentials, which is a perfectly fair point, it does seem like you're approaching this from an anti-religious POV. There's nothing wrong with that, in and of itself; no editor can be expected to be completely neutral, and WP:NPOV states that "bias in editors is not a problem, only in articles". But it would be better, IMHO, to consider this debate from an NPOV position. On your point about Reagan's autobiography, I absolutely concur that it's likely to be written from a "get-into-the-history-books" POV, as are most autobiographies - but I don't see that it should be excluded entirely from the article, just that it should be supplemented with alternative points of view from third-party sources. For example, In his autobiography, Reagan claimed X. (citation) However, the political academic Fred Bloggs argues that Reagan's interpretation of X is flawed, and that in fact Y would be a more accurate perspective on these events. (citation). I would regard that as an appropriately neutral and academic method of writing. Likewise, in the Cicero debate, it would seem to me appropriate to include references to the popular biography, coupled with references to the criticisms of that work by academic experts. It would be inherently POV, and contrary to Wikipedia's principles, if a group of experts were to review the viewpoints on an issue, decide which were more "reliable", and write an article based on only those viewpoints. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 11:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to follow WP:AGF, and not be offended by the fact that you state that I fail to understand the "fundamental nature of research and reliable sources". If you like, you can review my recent edits to the articles on Politics, Left-right politics and Street-level bureaucracy and tell me whether you regard my use of sources in those articles as fundamentally wrong. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 17:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Taking up your challenge. I will begin with the politics page. I do not know if you added all of these sources, but they are there for scrutiny. I did not check every source, but what I did check does not inspire me with confidence.
To provide a method for the verification of credentials is not to circumvent cornerstone Wikipedia policies like WP:ATT and WP:OR. If anything it's to make them more potent. As Awadewit said above, while not everyone is well-equiped to assess the reliability of a source, an expert with years of experience probably is. Credentials would allow experts to enforce the policy better, not get around it. The suggestion made in essays like this one that credentials will undermine other Wikipedia policies is misleading.
The danger that experts will use their credentials to win arguments, demand sysop priveleges, or make unverifiable edits is marginal. The culture here, which treats credentials without much reverence already, will never allow that kind of thing to happen. Editors will always challenge other edits factually, and other editors (even credentialed experts) will be pressed to provide facts in support of their edits if they want them to stand. Why would that ever change?
Even the fear that people will tout their credentials is unfounded. People who want to tout their credentials will probaby tout them with or without a process for verification, and, since it's not a widespread issue already, I don't see why it would become one. Verification just eliminates the possibility that someone touting their expertise is a fraud -- that's exactly why credentials exist in the first place.
Overall, I think the potential abuse of credentials is better than the potential abuse of anonymity, as Essjay illustrated so well. -- bcasterline • talk 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't that what the essay is saying? That because of Wikipedia:Attribution, Ph.D.-thumping won't be taken seriously without support from reliable, third party sources, just as with any editor's contributions? We are not bashing advanced degrees for the sake of it, or in and of themselves, right? The message is, "Relax. There are already policies in place about how to add credible content. Hysteria about editors' claims to credentials is beside the point." If I'm reading that message right, it'd be ironic to disparage credentials in the title. - Fsotrain 09 22:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
In the real world, experts are given the last word in things. I don't like this, so I am glad there's a place that forces even PhD's to engage in a thoughtful(i.e. non-condescending) defense of their positions. But now Wikipedia has gone to the other extreme, where Credentials are useless. This is misguided for so many reasons, articulated by great examples by Awadewit above as well as bcasterline and Derex, and I want to add some additional arguments to theirs.
The real world worships fancy degrees and gives experts all the power. This is wrong. But Wikipedia now has replaced this with citation worship as if that were everything. There are no absolutes in this world and to think that any one thing can settle a debate is foolish. In a debate, everything is a factor. Topics such as global warming, whether HIV really causes AIDS, and did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone have tons of important sounding references arguing all sides, and it's not enough to simply say cover the subject from all perspectives. Experts have a role in shooting down references as unreliable, giving counter points, and giving context to a particular reference.
We should respect experts more(though not slavishly) than to the degree we are doing so now. They're the ones who are responsible for a lot of the content and would rightfully resent it if they were truly treated no better than anyone else here. I think this attitude indirectly lead to the Essjay controversy. In the very least, creating false credentials must be considered unacceptable and can result in being banned from Wikipedia. You can't demand honesty and good faith in every aspect of the work done here, but allow for an exception in the way someone represents him/herself. CowardX10 23:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly my thoughts. If credentials mean nothing (and they don't), then why verify them? The problem is that Essjay lied, and that he used his fake credentials to win arguments. This essay might need to clarify that wiki is not 'anti-intellectual', however. We don't think your credentials are useless, just that they don't fit with our editing ethos. We encourage people with qualifications to write articles, and be proud of their achievements. You just don't use them inappropriately. Iorek85 23:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
On legal matters, such as copyright or fair use, I'd be inclinded to trust the opinion of a lawyer. On medical topics, the same with a doctor. I think there are cases where a contibutor's expertise is relevent, and if it is relevent, then verification is desirable. SmokeyJoe 10:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if someone might find a way to fit the Ignore All Credentials proposal into this essay, assuming they deem it relevant. // Internet Esquire 19:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This is even worse than Wikipedia:Ignore all credentials. The big problem, and the problem in the Essjay incident, was with people acting as if their opinion was as valuable as anyone else's when their own knowledge of their own credentials told them otherwise. The reality is that objectively not all opinions are equally valuable; saying that they all are is the same as saying that everyone's opinion is worthy, and that just isn't true.
This essay is just an open invitation for those who don't know what they're talking about to butt into any controversy that comes along. Verifiability isn't enough-- indeed, there are the twin problems that (a) if one doesn't understand the source material, one cannot really verify, and that (b) verified sources still have to be organized into a coherent article, and that generally requires understanding of the material. In my experience, it is these interpretational disputes that are at the core of most persistent controversies here. But we are all experts, and all competent to pass these judgements, because we don't need any credentials, because credentials don't matter. Mangoe 21:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Well said. True, credentials are not a trump card with which someone can win a debate, but in any dispute it would helpful to know if any of the involved editors are actually accredited or published in that field.
This essay therefore draws the wrong lesson from the Essjay scandal. The lesson is not that credentials are irrelevant. The lesson is that anonymous, pseudonymous, or otherwise unverifiable claims of expertise should be regarded with suspicion. In other words:
“ | Unless one has indisputable proof to the contrary, one should assume that any given Wikipedian is an unemployed college dropout in his twenties who lives in his Mom's basement. | ” |
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-) — Kevin 15:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with most of it except, and this is being very picky, when you say: "you should never, ever refer to them (your credentials) outside your userspace." Why not? As long as you don't expect any special treatment then its fine to say, for example, in an article talk page. It at least makes what is said worth looking up / checking into. Think outside the box 13:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm newly-registered (to be precise, newly-returned), but, in my understanding, anonymity is simply an aspect of the wiki "ethos" (i.e. it is not really fundamental). Total anonymity would not allow for ip-address blocking (which is already utilized, obviously), because there would be no record of who changed what. Also, at some point, it is already accepted that anonymous edits, while they have their place, are not given the same initial value by the community as a registered edit (at least from what I can tell).
I support the idea of verifying credentials, if only as a method of assembling a database of experts in particular fields. A verified expert in a field could be someone to whom others turn when they have a question about an article/edit/what-have-you. That person is more likley to have the appropriate resources at their disposal and thus is in a better position to give an opinion than the average editor. Of course, one should require that this opinion be backed up with one of those resources of which the verified expert has access to; accepting their opinion solely on the grounds of their verified expert-hood should be avoided (on that, I agree with you). Whodan2 19:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with some of the criticisms of this essay which multiple people have articulated. Perhaps is it is time to start a "response essay" titled something like Wikipedia:Credentials matter? -- Beland 20:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to make some anti-intellectual propaganda, and it's not like I'm saying that credentials are not relevant at all; but they're irrelevant on Wikipedia. Here's my thoughts on why:
I think most of this has already been said with different words, and the point is simply that you can talk about whatever you want on the internet, but it mustn't be used to win a discussion, specially in a web like Wikipedia. And it it is done, shame on us for listening to shuch an ignorant.
Teresa.Fr 05:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry guys, but I just can't buy into your assertions. No Wikipedian's opinion is more valuable than another's. -- this may be the fundamental flaw (of the whole system, perhaps), and represents the dichotomy of philosophies I currently have. On the one hand...
on the other...
As it all plays out, however, wikipedia loses credibility because we have no experts. With all opinions being equal, there is absolutely no incentive for experts (which we do need) to contribute to our growing encyclopedia of knowledge. Ask yourself this -- would you even consider using an encyclopedia that purposefully invalidates and ignores the credentials of experts in preference to a feel-good hey we're all the same here democracy?
I am not saying that wikipedia is fatally or inherently flawed, nor am I addressing the mechanics of how we should cross this bridge (regarding credentials). I am, however, saying that the "credentials are irrelevant" attitude hurts the project by alienating those who actually do have the expertise we desperately need.
I'm sure I could have expanded upon my ideas, and have been much more clear in conveying them. The hour is late, I apologize in advance for any typos, discrepancies, errors, or unclear logic. :-) / Blaxthos 06:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If credentials are irrelevant, then what do we need Category:Pages needing expert attention for? Mangoe 13:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
A ways above here, Teresa.Fr said:
You can have all the credentials in the world and still don't know anything. You can be completly incompetent and have credentials. Having a paper that says you studied something doesn't mean you're smart or know what you're talking about.
and
Again, I'm not saying that all PhD holders are incompetent, I'm just saying they're not NECESSARILY more competent than any other person, thus making crediants unimportant for wikipedian users.
This is of course true. And even "good" experts can be wrong, though as the principles of Wikipedia state, we are here to recount the state of the art, not to guess who is right.
However, this is already covered by Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. We do not need a special rule to justify ignoring incompetents with credentials. Within the scope of this project, it's obvious that credentials aren't all-determining. And even if they were given weight by policy (which is never going to happen), WP:IAR would give editors leave to disregard patent incompetents.
All this presupposes that you can tell who is competent and who isn't. I personally am going to assume that high school students and college students most likely can't, especially if they are working outside their field of study. The whole point of such education, after all, is to give its beneficiaries the tools to do proper research, and it is reasonable to assume that if their studies are incomplete, they are not masters of those tools. I'm sure a lot of people feel slighted by that, but competency is an aristocracy.
Of late I've been doing articles on types of sailing boats. I have a reasonable level of amateur knowledge, but I'm hardly an expert. So if someone comes along with some claim to expertise, I don't see any reason not to let them correct me, unless they say something that a consultation with references shows is completely off the wall. The truth is that my competency to correct them is rather limited. Likewise, we are stymied at the moment in editing railway signalling because, lacking someone with comprehensive expertise, us North American amateurs are having a hard time putting something together with the British amateurs that addresses both areas well. This reflects a realization on all sides that our competency is limited.
The problem of incompetent experts is being overstated. One need only go to Wikipedia:expert rebellion to find pointers to actual cases of know-it-all amateurs butting heads with credentialled experts . Where's the case with the incompetent expert? Mangoe 17:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's strength is also its weakness: its inclusivity - any deranged moron with two fingers can become an editor. Thus we have input from those normally excluded from the elitist realms of refernce material writing - this is a good thing and a bad thing. I think what is important is that the Admins have credentials and be required to put them forward as requested and when applying for admin-ship. This way good moderation of the submitted material from the two-fingered morons like myself might occur - or not, as is currently the case. In point of fact, though my personal credentials are scientific and medical, much of what I have contributed to Wikipedia has been in the realm of historic and arts facts. So, I reiterate my thesis that contributors should not necessarily be credentialled (beyond a basic ability to write a good comprehensible sentence reflecting an accurate fact - those that check such material should be competent by some objective measurement to do so. Lgh 00:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that most of these editor issues could be resolved if Wikipedia would just require its users to pass a basic competency test before they can edit. It would be kind of like a driver's permit test. You wouldn't necessarily be qualified to jump behind the wheel by yourself so to speak, but at the very least you would have a good fundamental understanding of editing principles. I've seen so many instances where it looked like people didn't even have a clue when it comes to encyclopedias. This would make for a good screening test. Hanjabba 06:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Want to congratulate those who wrote this essay. It suns up my thoughts exactly. It's awful what Essjay did but credential verification is a knee jerk reaction...period. No need. -- Woohookitty Woohoo! 10:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It's all very well to say that the only criterion is attributability to a reliable published source, but that gives rise to (at least) three questions. The first of these is how accessible does the source have to be - if the readers can't get at the source how do they know that the attribution is genuine? The second is who decides that the source is reliable - what happens if an editor decides that a series of articles published perhaps on the web, or on usenet, by a complete nutter (perhaps one of those who claims that it's possible to prove the generalised continuum hypothesis from the accepted axioms of GNB set theory becasue it's a direct consequencs of Occam's razor) is reliable - but I expect that question will be done to death by a lot of people. The third question is what happens when there is no reliable source, or no sufficiently accessible reliable source, or no sufficiently well attested accessible source? The WP includes articles on subjects where that third question is relevant = for example the article on "Scottish Gaelic grammar", where the editor (who isn't, I think, a native speaker) has relied on two very old books (Calder and Gillies) which are fairly accessable but pretty unreliable, reliable material (like inald Blacks "Cothrom Ionnsachaidh") is either pretty inaccessible or (like Micheal Bauer's Akerbeltz web site) not well attested, not visibly subject to peer review ("visibly" is an important word in there) or both pretty inaccessible and not well attested. I could rewrite that page and improve it a lot (and maybe will when I have time - I've commented heavily on its talk page in the hope of getting reaction to my ideas from other "experts"), but how would anyone know that what I put there was better than what went before? Obviously I would refer to Black and to Bauer, and to Cox (his school dictionary "Brigh nam Facal" has an excellent table giving the conjugation of gaelic verbs) and maybe to Clyne (all his stuff is out of print, though) but how many people can get hold of the books an check that the references are genuine and how many people can be sure that MB's website is as good as I claim it is? I'm not saying that credentials are any sort of answer to this (because they aren't), but I am saying that the view about attribution put forward in the essay (and in some of the comments above) is perhaps a bit naive. --Micheal-- MichealT 21:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at this diff. If this kind of thing becomes more prevalent, I will leave Wikipedia. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 15:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think the educational background of editors, or ignoring thereof, is the source of Wikipedia's lack of credibility. It's more the susceptibility to vandalism, hoaxes, and POV-pushing that threatens Wikipedia's credibility (all of which might be solved if we only allowed logged-in users to edit articles, but that's a side point). Most long-term good-faith editors, excluding those who only edit to promote a POV or to create a pretty userpage, are capable of writing decent, well-sourced articles. As to the incoherence/poor writing style of some articles, there are plenty of editors who are capable of copyediting, and work hard at that task (often for little recognition or reward). You don't have to be an expert of any description to clean up someone's poor spelling and grammar. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 16:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I've marked this historical - technically this is an "essay", but of course the whole credential verification thing is dead (and I've marked them as such as well). If this offends you, feel free to simply undo my action, though perhaps you would consider also updating the essay to reflect reality. -- Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 20:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Essays Low‑impact | ||||||||||
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I don't think it's about individual experience as much as it is being able to credibly verify the source of the information, to possibly designate that you know a substantial amount in a particular field enough to VERIFY existing information without adding original research.-- RWilliamKing 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
No one has ever said anything like that. Wild hysteria over the attack of the straw men.
If I wanted to fill Wikipedia with disinformation, I wouldn't claim I'm a professor. Instead, I'd start falsely citing books (preferably non-English) which few libraries have, and thus which are hugely difficult to check. I'd then start bitching about the "elitism" of the professor who knows that I'm wrong, that after all being his job, but doesn't have the reference which I've purposefully chosen to be obscure. Further, I'd fill it with such odd disinformation that no standard reference rebuts it, because it's just too weird to bother with. The cherry on my triumph would be getting the professor blocked under the Wikipedia:Credential ban. I would laugh & laugh & laugh. That is, if I were actually a troll, rather than a professor. Derex 01:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.
Referring to your degree to win a dispute does not match this meaning, so it should be changed accordingly. Thanks! -- WikiSlasher 06:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Or, "I don't hold a Ph.D., you should read my c.v. anyways." The fact of the matter is a bona fide expert is much less likely to make an "honest mistake" in his field of expertise than a non-expert. Where a non-expert might cite sources such as newspaper articles which turn out to be wrong, an expert will notice the source material is not correct and not cite it. In the event of an edit war over such a citation, an expert saying "the original source is wrong and here is why" will have more credence than a non-expert saying "the original source is wrong and here is why," assuming both "why's" sound equally credible. In such instance, someone posting "I have a Ph.D. in the matter" or "I've spent the last 5 years researching this very topic" on the flame-war-article's Talk page with more details and proof on their user page is not out of order. Davidwr 21:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have two remarks after reading the essay.
Jitse Niesen ( talk) 10:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As I have repeatedly stated on Jimbo's talk page, I am still ambivalent about this proposal, for many reasons. But this essay and all of the related posts elsewhere make several false assumptions.
A final point. I would like to condemn the strongly anti-intellectual flavor that I see in this essay and in other posts regarding this issue. To disregard the years of study that have gone into advanced degrees is insulting to those of us who have spent our lives in academic endeavors. We have also spent years teaching other people (often for tiny amounts of money, I might add). I would be surprised if the writers of this essay and those defending its ideas so staunchly elsewhere would really adhere to this policy in the real world: would they go to a doctor who hasn't been to medical school but who has read all of the books? I mean, that's just as good, right? Awadewit 11:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, I'll move the title ASAP. I also thought a little more about your earlier points. This is going off-topic a bit, but isn't it slightly dismissive to say that creationist viewpoints "are not science" and that a degree in theology is "not a credential"? I know very little about the natural sciences myself, and comparatively little about theology (my own field is politics), but from a political perspective I am aware that creationism/ intelligent design theory is promoted as a science by some American scientists, particularly those in the "Bible belt". As to a degree in theology, how is that not a credential when editing articles about religion and religious philosophy? Although it doesn't detract from the validity of your point about the utility of credentials, which is a perfectly fair point, it does seem like you're approaching this from an anti-religious POV. There's nothing wrong with that, in and of itself; no editor can be expected to be completely neutral, and WP:NPOV states that "bias in editors is not a problem, only in articles". But it would be better, IMHO, to consider this debate from an NPOV position. On your point about Reagan's autobiography, I absolutely concur that it's likely to be written from a "get-into-the-history-books" POV, as are most autobiographies - but I don't see that it should be excluded entirely from the article, just that it should be supplemented with alternative points of view from third-party sources. For example, In his autobiography, Reagan claimed X. (citation) However, the political academic Fred Bloggs argues that Reagan's interpretation of X is flawed, and that in fact Y would be a more accurate perspective on these events. (citation). I would regard that as an appropriately neutral and academic method of writing. Likewise, in the Cicero debate, it would seem to me appropriate to include references to the popular biography, coupled with references to the criticisms of that work by academic experts. It would be inherently POV, and contrary to Wikipedia's principles, if a group of experts were to review the viewpoints on an issue, decide which were more "reliable", and write an article based on only those viewpoints. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 11:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to follow WP:AGF, and not be offended by the fact that you state that I fail to understand the "fundamental nature of research and reliable sources". If you like, you can review my recent edits to the articles on Politics, Left-right politics and Street-level bureaucracy and tell me whether you regard my use of sources in those articles as fundamentally wrong. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 17:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Taking up your challenge. I will begin with the politics page. I do not know if you added all of these sources, but they are there for scrutiny. I did not check every source, but what I did check does not inspire me with confidence.
To provide a method for the verification of credentials is not to circumvent cornerstone Wikipedia policies like WP:ATT and WP:OR. If anything it's to make them more potent. As Awadewit said above, while not everyone is well-equiped to assess the reliability of a source, an expert with years of experience probably is. Credentials would allow experts to enforce the policy better, not get around it. The suggestion made in essays like this one that credentials will undermine other Wikipedia policies is misleading.
The danger that experts will use their credentials to win arguments, demand sysop priveleges, or make unverifiable edits is marginal. The culture here, which treats credentials without much reverence already, will never allow that kind of thing to happen. Editors will always challenge other edits factually, and other editors (even credentialed experts) will be pressed to provide facts in support of their edits if they want them to stand. Why would that ever change?
Even the fear that people will tout their credentials is unfounded. People who want to tout their credentials will probaby tout them with or without a process for verification, and, since it's not a widespread issue already, I don't see why it would become one. Verification just eliminates the possibility that someone touting their expertise is a fraud -- that's exactly why credentials exist in the first place.
Overall, I think the potential abuse of credentials is better than the potential abuse of anonymity, as Essjay illustrated so well. -- bcasterline • talk 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't that what the essay is saying? That because of Wikipedia:Attribution, Ph.D.-thumping won't be taken seriously without support from reliable, third party sources, just as with any editor's contributions? We are not bashing advanced degrees for the sake of it, or in and of themselves, right? The message is, "Relax. There are already policies in place about how to add credible content. Hysteria about editors' claims to credentials is beside the point." If I'm reading that message right, it'd be ironic to disparage credentials in the title. - Fsotrain 09 22:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
In the real world, experts are given the last word in things. I don't like this, so I am glad there's a place that forces even PhD's to engage in a thoughtful(i.e. non-condescending) defense of their positions. But now Wikipedia has gone to the other extreme, where Credentials are useless. This is misguided for so many reasons, articulated by great examples by Awadewit above as well as bcasterline and Derex, and I want to add some additional arguments to theirs.
The real world worships fancy degrees and gives experts all the power. This is wrong. But Wikipedia now has replaced this with citation worship as if that were everything. There are no absolutes in this world and to think that any one thing can settle a debate is foolish. In a debate, everything is a factor. Topics such as global warming, whether HIV really causes AIDS, and did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone have tons of important sounding references arguing all sides, and it's not enough to simply say cover the subject from all perspectives. Experts have a role in shooting down references as unreliable, giving counter points, and giving context to a particular reference.
We should respect experts more(though not slavishly) than to the degree we are doing so now. They're the ones who are responsible for a lot of the content and would rightfully resent it if they were truly treated no better than anyone else here. I think this attitude indirectly lead to the Essjay controversy. In the very least, creating false credentials must be considered unacceptable and can result in being banned from Wikipedia. You can't demand honesty and good faith in every aspect of the work done here, but allow for an exception in the way someone represents him/herself. CowardX10 23:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly my thoughts. If credentials mean nothing (and they don't), then why verify them? The problem is that Essjay lied, and that he used his fake credentials to win arguments. This essay might need to clarify that wiki is not 'anti-intellectual', however. We don't think your credentials are useless, just that they don't fit with our editing ethos. We encourage people with qualifications to write articles, and be proud of their achievements. You just don't use them inappropriately. Iorek85 23:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
On legal matters, such as copyright or fair use, I'd be inclinded to trust the opinion of a lawyer. On medical topics, the same with a doctor. I think there are cases where a contibutor's expertise is relevent, and if it is relevent, then verification is desirable. SmokeyJoe 10:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if someone might find a way to fit the Ignore All Credentials proposal into this essay, assuming they deem it relevant. // Internet Esquire 19:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
This is even worse than Wikipedia:Ignore all credentials. The big problem, and the problem in the Essjay incident, was with people acting as if their opinion was as valuable as anyone else's when their own knowledge of their own credentials told them otherwise. The reality is that objectively not all opinions are equally valuable; saying that they all are is the same as saying that everyone's opinion is worthy, and that just isn't true.
This essay is just an open invitation for those who don't know what they're talking about to butt into any controversy that comes along. Verifiability isn't enough-- indeed, there are the twin problems that (a) if one doesn't understand the source material, one cannot really verify, and that (b) verified sources still have to be organized into a coherent article, and that generally requires understanding of the material. In my experience, it is these interpretational disputes that are at the core of most persistent controversies here. But we are all experts, and all competent to pass these judgements, because we don't need any credentials, because credentials don't matter. Mangoe 21:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Well said. True, credentials are not a trump card with which someone can win a debate, but in any dispute it would helpful to know if any of the involved editors are actually accredited or published in that field.
This essay therefore draws the wrong lesson from the Essjay scandal. The lesson is not that credentials are irrelevant. The lesson is that anonymous, pseudonymous, or otherwise unverifiable claims of expertise should be regarded with suspicion. In other words:
“ | Unless one has indisputable proof to the contrary, one should assume that any given Wikipedian is an unemployed college dropout in his twenties who lives in his Mom's basement. | ” |
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-) — Kevin 15:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with most of it except, and this is being very picky, when you say: "you should never, ever refer to them (your credentials) outside your userspace." Why not? As long as you don't expect any special treatment then its fine to say, for example, in an article talk page. It at least makes what is said worth looking up / checking into. Think outside the box 13:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm newly-registered (to be precise, newly-returned), but, in my understanding, anonymity is simply an aspect of the wiki "ethos" (i.e. it is not really fundamental). Total anonymity would not allow for ip-address blocking (which is already utilized, obviously), because there would be no record of who changed what. Also, at some point, it is already accepted that anonymous edits, while they have their place, are not given the same initial value by the community as a registered edit (at least from what I can tell).
I support the idea of verifying credentials, if only as a method of assembling a database of experts in particular fields. A verified expert in a field could be someone to whom others turn when they have a question about an article/edit/what-have-you. That person is more likley to have the appropriate resources at their disposal and thus is in a better position to give an opinion than the average editor. Of course, one should require that this opinion be backed up with one of those resources of which the verified expert has access to; accepting their opinion solely on the grounds of their verified expert-hood should be avoided (on that, I agree with you). Whodan2 19:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with some of the criticisms of this essay which multiple people have articulated. Perhaps is it is time to start a "response essay" titled something like Wikipedia:Credentials matter? -- Beland 20:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to make some anti-intellectual propaganda, and it's not like I'm saying that credentials are not relevant at all; but they're irrelevant on Wikipedia. Here's my thoughts on why:
I think most of this has already been said with different words, and the point is simply that you can talk about whatever you want on the internet, but it mustn't be used to win a discussion, specially in a web like Wikipedia. And it it is done, shame on us for listening to shuch an ignorant.
Teresa.Fr 05:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry guys, but I just can't buy into your assertions. No Wikipedian's opinion is more valuable than another's. -- this may be the fundamental flaw (of the whole system, perhaps), and represents the dichotomy of philosophies I currently have. On the one hand...
on the other...
As it all plays out, however, wikipedia loses credibility because we have no experts. With all opinions being equal, there is absolutely no incentive for experts (which we do need) to contribute to our growing encyclopedia of knowledge. Ask yourself this -- would you even consider using an encyclopedia that purposefully invalidates and ignores the credentials of experts in preference to a feel-good hey we're all the same here democracy?
I am not saying that wikipedia is fatally or inherently flawed, nor am I addressing the mechanics of how we should cross this bridge (regarding credentials). I am, however, saying that the "credentials are irrelevant" attitude hurts the project by alienating those who actually do have the expertise we desperately need.
I'm sure I could have expanded upon my ideas, and have been much more clear in conveying them. The hour is late, I apologize in advance for any typos, discrepancies, errors, or unclear logic. :-) / Blaxthos 06:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If credentials are irrelevant, then what do we need Category:Pages needing expert attention for? Mangoe 13:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
A ways above here, Teresa.Fr said:
You can have all the credentials in the world and still don't know anything. You can be completly incompetent and have credentials. Having a paper that says you studied something doesn't mean you're smart or know what you're talking about.
and
Again, I'm not saying that all PhD holders are incompetent, I'm just saying they're not NECESSARILY more competent than any other person, thus making crediants unimportant for wikipedian users.
This is of course true. And even "good" experts can be wrong, though as the principles of Wikipedia state, we are here to recount the state of the art, not to guess who is right.
However, this is already covered by Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. We do not need a special rule to justify ignoring incompetents with credentials. Within the scope of this project, it's obvious that credentials aren't all-determining. And even if they were given weight by policy (which is never going to happen), WP:IAR would give editors leave to disregard patent incompetents.
All this presupposes that you can tell who is competent and who isn't. I personally am going to assume that high school students and college students most likely can't, especially if they are working outside their field of study. The whole point of such education, after all, is to give its beneficiaries the tools to do proper research, and it is reasonable to assume that if their studies are incomplete, they are not masters of those tools. I'm sure a lot of people feel slighted by that, but competency is an aristocracy.
Of late I've been doing articles on types of sailing boats. I have a reasonable level of amateur knowledge, but I'm hardly an expert. So if someone comes along with some claim to expertise, I don't see any reason not to let them correct me, unless they say something that a consultation with references shows is completely off the wall. The truth is that my competency to correct them is rather limited. Likewise, we are stymied at the moment in editing railway signalling because, lacking someone with comprehensive expertise, us North American amateurs are having a hard time putting something together with the British amateurs that addresses both areas well. This reflects a realization on all sides that our competency is limited.
The problem of incompetent experts is being overstated. One need only go to Wikipedia:expert rebellion to find pointers to actual cases of know-it-all amateurs butting heads with credentialled experts . Where's the case with the incompetent expert? Mangoe 17:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's strength is also its weakness: its inclusivity - any deranged moron with two fingers can become an editor. Thus we have input from those normally excluded from the elitist realms of refernce material writing - this is a good thing and a bad thing. I think what is important is that the Admins have credentials and be required to put them forward as requested and when applying for admin-ship. This way good moderation of the submitted material from the two-fingered morons like myself might occur - or not, as is currently the case. In point of fact, though my personal credentials are scientific and medical, much of what I have contributed to Wikipedia has been in the realm of historic and arts facts. So, I reiterate my thesis that contributors should not necessarily be credentialled (beyond a basic ability to write a good comprehensible sentence reflecting an accurate fact - those that check such material should be competent by some objective measurement to do so. Lgh 00:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that most of these editor issues could be resolved if Wikipedia would just require its users to pass a basic competency test before they can edit. It would be kind of like a driver's permit test. You wouldn't necessarily be qualified to jump behind the wheel by yourself so to speak, but at the very least you would have a good fundamental understanding of editing principles. I've seen so many instances where it looked like people didn't even have a clue when it comes to encyclopedias. This would make for a good screening test. Hanjabba 06:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Want to congratulate those who wrote this essay. It suns up my thoughts exactly. It's awful what Essjay did but credential verification is a knee jerk reaction...period. No need. -- Woohookitty Woohoo! 10:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It's all very well to say that the only criterion is attributability to a reliable published source, but that gives rise to (at least) three questions. The first of these is how accessible does the source have to be - if the readers can't get at the source how do they know that the attribution is genuine? The second is who decides that the source is reliable - what happens if an editor decides that a series of articles published perhaps on the web, or on usenet, by a complete nutter (perhaps one of those who claims that it's possible to prove the generalised continuum hypothesis from the accepted axioms of GNB set theory becasue it's a direct consequencs of Occam's razor) is reliable - but I expect that question will be done to death by a lot of people. The third question is what happens when there is no reliable source, or no sufficiently accessible reliable source, or no sufficiently well attested accessible source? The WP includes articles on subjects where that third question is relevant = for example the article on "Scottish Gaelic grammar", where the editor (who isn't, I think, a native speaker) has relied on two very old books (Calder and Gillies) which are fairly accessable but pretty unreliable, reliable material (like inald Blacks "Cothrom Ionnsachaidh") is either pretty inaccessible or (like Micheal Bauer's Akerbeltz web site) not well attested, not visibly subject to peer review ("visibly" is an important word in there) or both pretty inaccessible and not well attested. I could rewrite that page and improve it a lot (and maybe will when I have time - I've commented heavily on its talk page in the hope of getting reaction to my ideas from other "experts"), but how would anyone know that what I put there was better than what went before? Obviously I would refer to Black and to Bauer, and to Cox (his school dictionary "Brigh nam Facal" has an excellent table giving the conjugation of gaelic verbs) and maybe to Clyne (all his stuff is out of print, though) but how many people can get hold of the books an check that the references are genuine and how many people can be sure that MB's website is as good as I claim it is? I'm not saying that credentials are any sort of answer to this (because they aren't), but I am saying that the view about attribution put forward in the essay (and in some of the comments above) is perhaps a bit naive. --Micheal-- MichealT 21:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Take a look at this diff. If this kind of thing becomes more prevalent, I will leave Wikipedia. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 15:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think the educational background of editors, or ignoring thereof, is the source of Wikipedia's lack of credibility. It's more the susceptibility to vandalism, hoaxes, and POV-pushing that threatens Wikipedia's credibility (all of which might be solved if we only allowed logged-in users to edit articles, but that's a side point). Most long-term good-faith editors, excluding those who only edit to promote a POV or to create a pretty userpage, are capable of writing decent, well-sourced articles. As to the incoherence/poor writing style of some articles, there are plenty of editors who are capable of copyediting, and work hard at that task (often for little recognition or reward). You don't have to be an expert of any description to clean up someone's poor spelling and grammar. Wal ton Vivat Regina! 16:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I've marked this historical - technically this is an "essay", but of course the whole credential verification thing is dead (and I've marked them as such as well). If this offends you, feel free to simply undo my action, though perhaps you would consider also updating the essay to reflect reality. -- Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 20:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)