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I've made, and seen made, several complaints to ANI about users behaving in an uncivil manner. This often happens in article disputes where one person just feels too strongly and can't remain civil while trying to make their case. Most of these complaints have come with a host of examples, including warnings, and often other editors will indicate that they agree with the complaint, and yet they seemingly often just fade in to the archives and nothing is done about these disruptive editors. What is the point of this if editors can repeatedly behave in an uncivil manner even after warned, if there are no repercussions for their behaviour? How can you resolve a dispute if one person is continually making wild accusations and hurling insults. You can't, yet I've seen it happen over and over again since PAIN went away. There were all kinds of claims made when the made was removed that all people had to do was to report it to ANI instead of PAIN and it would be handled, yet I don't see that happening.-- Crossmr ( talk) 23:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we add another entry to the examples section? This sort of thing has increasingly become more of a problem:
I don't know what "&bot=1" is, but it is used without link or explanation on this page. Could it be added by someone who knows? Pdbailey ( talk) 17:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Before signing up for my user name "Bless sins" I didn't realize that when abbreviated to "BS" it can mean an English expletive. Since then I have had a problem with a user over this.
Previously I asked the user to refer to me as "Bless sins" and not "BS", to no avail. Recently the user said: "BS, stop your BS." [1]" I don't find that sentence to be appropriate.
Is it reasonable for me, under WP:CIVIL, to expect the user to refer to me "Bless sins" the user name I signed up for, and not something this user finds convenient? Bless sins ( talk) 08:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Discuss.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
All the extra templates make this page an eyesore in my opinion. I catch flack for having too much in my term papers. I'm taught on the principle of "keep it simple, stupid". Just state the policy without all the pazazz. All I have to say for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.128.172.131 ( talk) 16:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Obuibo Mbstpo removed "lies" from the list of examples of incivility, with the edit summary; "since when is lying a breach of civility?" Dreadstar thinks that lies should remain in the list. However, Obuibo has a point IMO. If "lies" is to remain in the list, we should explain how lies are a breach of incivility. Sunray ( talk) 01:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
No need to editwar about this. There is something useful on Dreadstar argument, related of uncivil behavior as casting aspersions in the form of "lies" about another editor. Let's explore this in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In a larger context .... collaborative communities are in constant flux and are growing quickly everywhere. Redefining the paradigms that support the structure of these communities not only happens but is a necessity if the community is to maintain healthy growth. We must define and redefine civility in a larger sense of the word ..... more holistically. Wikipedia is not the same place it was even six months ago, and what worked them may not and obviously isn't working now. As the community gets larger so must our definitions to include multiple, and ever expanding possibilities.Getting trapped by an older definition of the the word may be counter-evolutionary for the encyclopedia.( olive ( talk) 19:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
This policy page bugs me in a way, because why would anybody read WP:CIVIL? What, didn't you already know what it means to be civil? It means always showing respect, and respect for oneself and for others doesn't leave room for lying. The point isn't to classify lies as a form of incivility according to section 3, subparagraph b, item (vii)... this isn't court. The point is, why would you lie to someone you're trying to collaborate with? That makes no sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if there should be an over arching essay that encompasses the ideological components of Wikipedia as a holistic collaborative community ....Yes, I am starting to bore myself with that phrase but not sure how else to say it...that would include within itself notes on civility,for example. Within civility, then, would be more specific notes as we have now. Layers of understanding, but with a larger holistic view than we have now.( olive ( talk) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC))
I dispute the bit about name calling recently added to this policy which suggests that somehow warning users that an editor is a POV pusher would violate our policies. [2] Until mid-January, it has always been our policy that the benefit to the community of being able to simply call a spade a spade far outweighed the contortions of having to call a spade a "manual geomorphological modification implement." We're here to write an encyclopedia, not kabuki dance. -- Kendrick7 talk 19:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I've written extensively and gotten some encouraging comments on my discriptions of the extended and persistent use of the Straw man discreditiing attack and the "corrosive" effect over time. I'd like to invite some input here. WNDL42 ( talk) 23:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This seems to invite conflict smothering. "Soothing comments"? I would have thought that the issue at hand was more important, unless actual hurt feelings were expressed. "Do not answer offensive comments"? Right, let's just ignore comments that express issues or statements that may be offensive to some people. Anything can be offensive if a sufficiently hypersensitive person reads it. Maybe, just maybe, it's worth examining why the comment was written offensively before jumping the gun.
"Operate as if the offender does not exist" sums it all up. Ignore a fellow Wikipedia editor trying to express strong emotions, reducing him/her to the dehumanised label of "offender" and thus justify his/her treatment as nonexistent. How can a policy justify treating others as nonexistent? Forgive me, but I actually thought that addressing the editor as a person with emotions who makes mistakes sometimes would solve an issue better than operating under the illusion of a fellow Wikipedian's nonexistence.
The third-from-last point (walk away) also seems to encourage conflict smothering - walking away and returning when tempers have cooled is quite different from trying to cool tempers yourself. Suddenly dropping out from a conflict and returning on your own time has far-reaching consequences (e.g. other editors can grossly misrepresent your arguments and you won't be around to rebut them).
Basically, I am against ignoring fellow Wikipedians and treating them as if they were nonexistent. Forgive me if I was inadvertently uncivil. ---- WP holic 11:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Your point is exactly right. These are two different things entirely. Indecent suggestions are often sexual in nature, and are generally considered offensive to normal good taste. Cursing is considered to be use of words that are offensive rather than suggestions per say. Because these are quite different they should, if they need to be included at all, be in different lines rather than together in the same line.( olive ( talk) 20:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC))
Father Goose, you said above, "an unqualified prohibition against cursing is not advisable". First of all, I would agree, but I'd go further and say that unqualified prohibitions are not advisable. This policy would be more effective, I think, if it presented civility, not as a rule you have to follow, but as a reality with which we live. It's not "you must be civil". It's "choosing not to be civil is pissing in the wind. You'll be covered in piss, and we told you so."
If it's presented as a rule, people will look for exceptions, or claim that they're improving Wikipedia by ignoring it. However, nobody claims they're improving the world by ignoring the law of gravity. Civility is just as inevitable in human interactions as gravity is in physics. We should present is as an inevitability, rather than as a rule that one may follow or not. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, am I making sense? - GTBacchus( talk) 05:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
It's a terrible idea, but kind of fun to think about. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Olive in that there does need to be a new paradigm for the way editors interact in Wikipedia. It might be useful to consider who is editing Wikipedia. In my field, what I refer to as etheric studies, the association my wife and I run has a discussion board closed to the public. Only about 1% of the members regularly post there, yet the stats indicate that a much greater percentage visit the board every day. People willing to "put themselves out there" are too few.
Many of our members represent other organizations--usually hauntings investigation groups, and our website averages 1,400 to 1,700 unique visitors a day. I have attempted to recruit participation in Wikipedia from the larger community of interest in the paranormal but perhaps only one or two have tried and then quickly left. The most common response I receive is that the people who know this field have looked at the way I have been treated and tell me they do not want to subject themselves to the same.
I have stayed with EVP and Spiritualism with an occasional venture into other subjects, even though I have a lifetime of study in most things paranormal. It is just too painful to have someone who read a book tell me that EVP is singular (it hase many forms)or that it started where it did not. So who is editing in the paranormal articles? The editors with the most tenacity have proven to be the ones most certain that things paranormal are not possible and are determined to make sure the world understands as much. Since by their own admission, their knowledge of the subject is from reading a book or the equivalent, this amounts to an ideological point of view that dominates the paranormal subjects. Those who hold the view are slowly driving off or banning those who disagree--with little regard for fact or truth.
The people who are able to contribute in a meaningful way would probably have some difficulty adjusting to wiki rules. I know I did, and of course, I still find such rules as the omission of virtually the only meaningful reference material because of original research to be beyond comprehension when it leaves only skeptical reference to explain the subject. New people would probably not realize how sinful it is to claim they think something is real, so they really need advisors to help them understand balance, not punishers.
A possible solution might look something like this:
Most of the people in my field I speak to know that they are working at the fringe, and do not expect to have their views represented as fact. But at the same time, they (we) do expect our subjects to be honestly represented and this is not happening as often as needed to maintain Wikipedia's good reputation. These suggestions are just ideas, but they do offer a way of keeping Wikipedia from being a platform for ideologues. Tom Butler ( talk) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd have thought you'd embrace that, Arritt, after all how can the scientific position on fringe subjects of which scientists have not spoken be presented, except by OR? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. Consider it a demonstration then.
The problems with Wikipedia are systemic and any solution is going to be more comprehensive than simply modifying a policy a little. For instance, I see increased support for the idea that we should be even more lenient about civility and that it is the responsibility of the offended editor to tell the offending editor that he or she is offended before taking any other action. [3] So okay, I expressed the fact that I found Raymond Arritt's response to be "sarcastic dismissal." Both mild incivility, and he responded with more sarcastic dismissal. But please do not respond to that. I am just saying that such modification to the rules seldom have the desired results.
The line about OR, fringe and such are flash points in Wikipedia. You can do all you want with civility, but if the encyclopedia is not changed from a platform to push ideologies--on both sides--then it will both be a target for people who think it is a misleading source of information and a truly nasty place to spend time trying to do good on the Internet. It is up to you.
Before you decide, however, take a look at the growing understanding of what is often called the "perception of danger" as a modifying influence in behavior. See Hazard and Risk Perception among Young Novice Drivers [4]
Hiding behind screen names has given you the Lord of the Flies [5]. How can such an environment produce great reference articles? Tom Butler ( talk) 16:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've made, and seen made, several complaints to ANI about users behaving in an uncivil manner. This often happens in article disputes where one person just feels too strongly and can't remain civil while trying to make their case. Most of these complaints have come with a host of examples, including warnings, and often other editors will indicate that they agree with the complaint, and yet they seemingly often just fade in to the archives and nothing is done about these disruptive editors. What is the point of this if editors can repeatedly behave in an uncivil manner even after warned, if there are no repercussions for their behaviour? How can you resolve a dispute if one person is continually making wild accusations and hurling insults. You can't, yet I've seen it happen over and over again since PAIN went away. There were all kinds of claims made when the made was removed that all people had to do was to report it to ANI instead of PAIN and it would be handled, yet I don't see that happening.-- Crossmr ( talk) 23:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we add another entry to the examples section? This sort of thing has increasingly become more of a problem:
I don't know what "&bot=1" is, but it is used without link or explanation on this page. Could it be added by someone who knows? Pdbailey ( talk) 17:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Before signing up for my user name "Bless sins" I didn't realize that when abbreviated to "BS" it can mean an English expletive. Since then I have had a problem with a user over this.
Previously I asked the user to refer to me as "Bless sins" and not "BS", to no avail. Recently the user said: "BS, stop your BS." [1]" I don't find that sentence to be appropriate.
Is it reasonable for me, under WP:CIVIL, to expect the user to refer to me "Bless sins" the user name I signed up for, and not something this user finds convenient? Bless sins ( talk) 08:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Discuss.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
All the extra templates make this page an eyesore in my opinion. I catch flack for having too much in my term papers. I'm taught on the principle of "keep it simple, stupid". Just state the policy without all the pazazz. All I have to say for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.128.172.131 ( talk) 16:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Obuibo Mbstpo removed "lies" from the list of examples of incivility, with the edit summary; "since when is lying a breach of civility?" Dreadstar thinks that lies should remain in the list. However, Obuibo has a point IMO. If "lies" is to remain in the list, we should explain how lies are a breach of incivility. Sunray ( talk) 01:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
No need to editwar about this. There is something useful on Dreadstar argument, related of uncivil behavior as casting aspersions in the form of "lies" about another editor. Let's explore this in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In a larger context .... collaborative communities are in constant flux and are growing quickly everywhere. Redefining the paradigms that support the structure of these communities not only happens but is a necessity if the community is to maintain healthy growth. We must define and redefine civility in a larger sense of the word ..... more holistically. Wikipedia is not the same place it was even six months ago, and what worked them may not and obviously isn't working now. As the community gets larger so must our definitions to include multiple, and ever expanding possibilities.Getting trapped by an older definition of the the word may be counter-evolutionary for the encyclopedia.( olive ( talk) 19:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
This policy page bugs me in a way, because why would anybody read WP:CIVIL? What, didn't you already know what it means to be civil? It means always showing respect, and respect for oneself and for others doesn't leave room for lying. The point isn't to classify lies as a form of incivility according to section 3, subparagraph b, item (vii)... this isn't court. The point is, why would you lie to someone you're trying to collaborate with? That makes no sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if there should be an over arching essay that encompasses the ideological components of Wikipedia as a holistic collaborative community ....Yes, I am starting to bore myself with that phrase but not sure how else to say it...that would include within itself notes on civility,for example. Within civility, then, would be more specific notes as we have now. Layers of understanding, but with a larger holistic view than we have now.( olive ( talk) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC))
I dispute the bit about name calling recently added to this policy which suggests that somehow warning users that an editor is a POV pusher would violate our policies. [2] Until mid-January, it has always been our policy that the benefit to the community of being able to simply call a spade a spade far outweighed the contortions of having to call a spade a "manual geomorphological modification implement." We're here to write an encyclopedia, not kabuki dance. -- Kendrick7 talk 19:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I've written extensively and gotten some encouraging comments on my discriptions of the extended and persistent use of the Straw man discreditiing attack and the "corrosive" effect over time. I'd like to invite some input here. WNDL42 ( talk) 23:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This seems to invite conflict smothering. "Soothing comments"? I would have thought that the issue at hand was more important, unless actual hurt feelings were expressed. "Do not answer offensive comments"? Right, let's just ignore comments that express issues or statements that may be offensive to some people. Anything can be offensive if a sufficiently hypersensitive person reads it. Maybe, just maybe, it's worth examining why the comment was written offensively before jumping the gun.
"Operate as if the offender does not exist" sums it all up. Ignore a fellow Wikipedia editor trying to express strong emotions, reducing him/her to the dehumanised label of "offender" and thus justify his/her treatment as nonexistent. How can a policy justify treating others as nonexistent? Forgive me, but I actually thought that addressing the editor as a person with emotions who makes mistakes sometimes would solve an issue better than operating under the illusion of a fellow Wikipedian's nonexistence.
The third-from-last point (walk away) also seems to encourage conflict smothering - walking away and returning when tempers have cooled is quite different from trying to cool tempers yourself. Suddenly dropping out from a conflict and returning on your own time has far-reaching consequences (e.g. other editors can grossly misrepresent your arguments and you won't be around to rebut them).
Basically, I am against ignoring fellow Wikipedians and treating them as if they were nonexistent. Forgive me if I was inadvertently uncivil. ---- WP holic 11:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Your point is exactly right. These are two different things entirely. Indecent suggestions are often sexual in nature, and are generally considered offensive to normal good taste. Cursing is considered to be use of words that are offensive rather than suggestions per say. Because these are quite different they should, if they need to be included at all, be in different lines rather than together in the same line.( olive ( talk) 20:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC))
Father Goose, you said above, "an unqualified prohibition against cursing is not advisable". First of all, I would agree, but I'd go further and say that unqualified prohibitions are not advisable. This policy would be more effective, I think, if it presented civility, not as a rule you have to follow, but as a reality with which we live. It's not "you must be civil". It's "choosing not to be civil is pissing in the wind. You'll be covered in piss, and we told you so."
If it's presented as a rule, people will look for exceptions, or claim that they're improving Wikipedia by ignoring it. However, nobody claims they're improving the world by ignoring the law of gravity. Civility is just as inevitable in human interactions as gravity is in physics. We should present is as an inevitability, rather than as a rule that one may follow or not. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, am I making sense? - GTBacchus( talk) 05:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
It's a terrible idea, but kind of fun to think about. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Olive in that there does need to be a new paradigm for the way editors interact in Wikipedia. It might be useful to consider who is editing Wikipedia. In my field, what I refer to as etheric studies, the association my wife and I run has a discussion board closed to the public. Only about 1% of the members regularly post there, yet the stats indicate that a much greater percentage visit the board every day. People willing to "put themselves out there" are too few.
Many of our members represent other organizations--usually hauntings investigation groups, and our website averages 1,400 to 1,700 unique visitors a day. I have attempted to recruit participation in Wikipedia from the larger community of interest in the paranormal but perhaps only one or two have tried and then quickly left. The most common response I receive is that the people who know this field have looked at the way I have been treated and tell me they do not want to subject themselves to the same.
I have stayed with EVP and Spiritualism with an occasional venture into other subjects, even though I have a lifetime of study in most things paranormal. It is just too painful to have someone who read a book tell me that EVP is singular (it hase many forms)or that it started where it did not. So who is editing in the paranormal articles? The editors with the most tenacity have proven to be the ones most certain that things paranormal are not possible and are determined to make sure the world understands as much. Since by their own admission, their knowledge of the subject is from reading a book or the equivalent, this amounts to an ideological point of view that dominates the paranormal subjects. Those who hold the view are slowly driving off or banning those who disagree--with little regard for fact or truth.
The people who are able to contribute in a meaningful way would probably have some difficulty adjusting to wiki rules. I know I did, and of course, I still find such rules as the omission of virtually the only meaningful reference material because of original research to be beyond comprehension when it leaves only skeptical reference to explain the subject. New people would probably not realize how sinful it is to claim they think something is real, so they really need advisors to help them understand balance, not punishers.
A possible solution might look something like this:
Most of the people in my field I speak to know that they are working at the fringe, and do not expect to have their views represented as fact. But at the same time, they (we) do expect our subjects to be honestly represented and this is not happening as often as needed to maintain Wikipedia's good reputation. These suggestions are just ideas, but they do offer a way of keeping Wikipedia from being a platform for ideologues. Tom Butler ( talk) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd have thought you'd embrace that, Arritt, after all how can the scientific position on fringe subjects of which scientists have not spoken be presented, except by OR? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. Consider it a demonstration then.
The problems with Wikipedia are systemic and any solution is going to be more comprehensive than simply modifying a policy a little. For instance, I see increased support for the idea that we should be even more lenient about civility and that it is the responsibility of the offended editor to tell the offending editor that he or she is offended before taking any other action. [3] So okay, I expressed the fact that I found Raymond Arritt's response to be "sarcastic dismissal." Both mild incivility, and he responded with more sarcastic dismissal. But please do not respond to that. I am just saying that such modification to the rules seldom have the desired results.
The line about OR, fringe and such are flash points in Wikipedia. You can do all you want with civility, but if the encyclopedia is not changed from a platform to push ideologies--on both sides--then it will both be a target for people who think it is a misleading source of information and a truly nasty place to spend time trying to do good on the Internet. It is up to you.
Before you decide, however, take a look at the growing understanding of what is often called the "perception of danger" as a modifying influence in behavior. See Hazard and Risk Perception among Young Novice Drivers [4]
Hiding behind screen names has given you the Lord of the Flies [5]. How can such an environment produce great reference articles? Tom Butler ( talk) 16:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)