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Should we mention the use of being polite and using diplomacy in the act of being civil? For example:
"Civility also includes the use of diplomacy, where users are expected to use neutral language when dealing with a hostile or contraversal situation."
-- Karn-b 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I subscribe to the idea that people are naturally good, but that sometimes people don't know when they're being uncivil. Maybe a template should be created to be inserted into a talk page, on request by admins, which will gently inform a user they have been uncivil, give a relevant example, and point them to this page.
For example:
"Wikipedia subscribes to the ideal that all contributors are editing with goodwill, and are all trying to improve the content of the article. Language which may be insulting to other users maybe counter productive, and focus the efforts of editors from improving the article to counter-productive arguments."
-- Karn-b 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sonic,Pikachu,and Snorunt 13:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)13:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)People are cursing!
How is "fixed sloppy spelling" being rude? If someone takes that as rude, I'd say they either need to learn to spell better or be thankful that someone fixed their mistakes. - JNighthawk 15:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how "sloppy" is offensive at all. People should take care when they edit an article. If they can't take five seconds and run a quick spell check, Wikipedia is better off without them. Modor 11:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)Modor
My personal hate is being patronised, and I am slightly disappointed that there is no mention of it in these pages, as a new contributor I have been subjected to a particular user making condescending comments and find this offensive.
These mainly revolve around policys and guidelines, and my lack of minute knowledge of these, allied to being a new contributor.
Any comments on this particular topic(I fully expect the one who is patronising me to arrive on this topic and start their discourse anew). Cheers. Belbo Casaubon 00:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made a proposal regarding this recently deleted template. See Tagging uncivil users. [1] -- ElectricEye ( talk) 08:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it uncivil to mention previous editors in the edit summary in the following fashion: "fixed missorting by Suzy Queue" ? Novickas 15:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The worst part of this policy is that this there are no consequences for being uncivil. If you contribute to Wikipedia and accuse other people of completely false things and talk in a degrading way, admins can't do jack all. Look at User:Mais oui!, User_talk:Donteatyellowsnow. There's no point other than to say please be nice. Langara College 01:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In my personal opinion, the failure of any editor or admin to acknowledge and/or answer legitimately serious questions about contributions, references and WP guidelines to be a case of incivility. Any editor, but especially new editors are going to make errors. Those errors are going to result in all types of actions the new editors may or may not understand such as COI, POV issues, notability, verifiability, deletion protocols, reverts etc and require further inquiry to understand fully. When questions are clearly posed to specific editors or admins on talk or discussion pages in a civil way and there is a clear expectation that the editor/admin will see the question, those editors/admins should do one of two things:
Both these actions are the civil thing to do. Failure to acknowledge a serious question, asked in good faith is just uncivil. The editor asking the question may not like the answer, and may not even like being told by the specific editor that they choose not to answer, but that’s OK. But asking a question that goes unacknowledged and/or unanswered is extremely frustrating and very un-collaborative. I think that Failure on the part of editors and admins to acknowledge and/or answer serious good faith questions by other editors should be included in the list of incivilities.-- Mike Cline 13:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I've go a user who's accused me inventing content/policy, made insulting comments against me, and has consistently been using a very aggressive and accusation tone for about a month. I've informally warned them, and so has another user, but they have persisted. I'd like to cite them under NPA or Civility, but I can't find out how to. Some help would be appreciated (for some reason the incivility etc boiler plates don't seem to be clearly accessible).
perfectblue 07:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Are there any proposals to creating consequences for people who don't obey WP:CIVIL? It seems people can get away with being a WP:DICK for a long time without any real significant consequences. -- Craigtalbert 01:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I added this information to the "caution the offender" section. Radiant deleted it. Anyone else have an opinion on whether or not it would be appropriate?
When leaving a comment on a user's talkpage, it is helpful to include a section title and edit summary such as "Civility," which can be of use later if it is necessary to go through a user's history to prove a pattern of ignoring warnings and persisting with uncivil behavior. It may also be useful to look at the history of a user's talkpage to see if there have already been recent cautions from other users.
One or two cautions about civility are generally not seen as sufficient basis to take action against a user. But, if it can be shown that multiple users in good standing have been cautioning an editor about civility, then it may be time to escalate the matter, such as via a user conduct Request for Comment. Please note that this step should not be taken for minor infractions or in a simple one-on-one dispute, but only in a case where multiple users have attempted to address an ongoing problem. If a user conduct RfC is not "certified" by at least two users, it will be deleted.
Personally I think it's useful to give these kinds of instructions. In my experience, when an editor is repeatedly uncivil, they usually react to civility cautions by just deleting them off their talkpage, and this method of sweeping things under the rug enables them to coast without official action for quite awhile. However, if we encourage the victims to use a gentle but more standardized method of cautioning them, then it makes a pattern of problem behavior easier to spot, and easier to document if it's necessary to dig through someone's talkpage history for an eventual RfC or RfAr. -- El on ka 16:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I've got a question to ask about Civility. Let's say there is a discussion that goes very heated that you can actually feel there may be conflict doing on. Would that be considered incivil? I see many disputes around the place where both sides won't compromise, and an awful argument arise. Kylohk 15:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
With regards to, "Judgmental tone in edit summaries ("fixed sloppy spelling", "snipped rambling crap")" - I was about to go ahead and be bold and change this to something like, "Judgemental tone in edit summaries and comments about [or regarding?] articles." I was going to do this because sometimes in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion (I'm sure this would apply elsewhere) people make comments like articles being "rubbish" or "people wasting their time" (in reference to good faith contributions, and these are just isolated examples), etc. Does anyone have any objections or support or suggestions on how to implement this, or would just being bold be appropriate?
I bring this up in reference to a comment "Seriously, do I actually need [sic] to go into detail as to why this sort of fancruft rubbish [sic] shouldn't be poisoning Wikipedia further?" On this page: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Kenny's_deaths. The the user's opinion about the article should be respected, but perhaps to create a more positive environment they should be more sensitive to the editors who contribute to article about Southpark (or any topic for that matter) and who act in good faith. -- R e m i 20:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, so i was blocked because of political beliefs. User:Ymous
this was the parting shot:
"*Yawn. Oh well, perhaps you are right. There, I said it. Feel free to consider your block a pyrrhic victory. At any rate, playtime is over; talk page protected from further trolling"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CIVIL
Yep.
I was told it is proper ettiquette to use profanities like cunt, cock and fuck when making suggestions for changes in articles. I am against this. If wiki wants to appear scholarly these words should not be used. I think there should be a rule on this. For instance I would not want my 10 year old daughter to attempt a conversation on a talk page and then have someone say
[[ == "I don't write the fucking definitions" ==]]
as a response back to her. Now that happened to me and I asked the editor not to talk like that and he said it was not against the rules.
I think this should be changed. I do not think children should be exposed to that kind of language and actually neither should adults in this type of forum.
ProtoCat 13:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thanks for starting it. RodentofDeath 04:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
How civil is labeling fellow editors with nouns based on their work, views and nationality? For example Ive been here for a month and Ive already been labeled as a "meatpuppet" and "problematic Estonian nationalist"(Being called meatpuppet is plain insulting and my nationality is Estonian, but I am no nationalist)... Where does policy stand on such labeling? -- Alexia Death 20:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I put the essay on the "see also".-- Cerejota 01:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
On my talk page, there is a threat of legal action over Acen Ravzi, from the alleged producer who keeps replacing the earlier text, which he claims is incorrect, with POV copyright (which he claims to own) spam. I'm not losing sleep, but I can't find the policy regarding legal threats. Any ideas? I'm out all day, so for the time being I've deleted and protected the page to call a halt. Jimfbleak 05:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a link to a forum whose purpose is to discuss topics with civil, non-vulgar, non-hateful, non-spiteful.... well the word civil pretty much sums up how you can debate. It is very well monitored and debaters are chastised and even removed if they become uncivil. It is censored for profanity and vulgarity automatically, and further censoring is accomplished by the moderator. I placed this link up here last week and someone felt it necessary to remove - I'm sure because they thought I was promoting some gain of my own, but I'm really just trying to help anyone interested in civility out so that we can all discuss things together. This is not a profitable site, membership is free I have nothing at all, nor do the site's operators, by anyone visiting or joining except for the conversation you may choose to take part in. Please allow this link to stay.
Why isn't this a "behaviourial guideline", like WP:BITE, WP:AGF, WP:POINT, etc? Mel sa ran 13:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
this page is getting out of hand. I see that even "calling for a ban" was listed as prohibited "incivility". WP:CIVIL is important, but it cannot be enforced, because people's standards vary enormously: it can only be enforced stringently once "incivility" has clearly given way to " NPAvio". It is de facto a guideline, and in fact not more than a corollary of WP:DICK. Some people will even call "WP:CIVIL" when they are pointed to WP:DICK ("how dare you call me a dick"...) WP:CIVIL is important, but it is just as important that we do not allow it to be used as a pretext to dodge the issue of blatant bad faith. WP:CIVIL should never be construed as a prohibition of calling bullshit bullshit, or bad faith bad faith. WP:AGF is subject to WP:UCS. Hell, every policy is subject to WP:UCS. At some point, it becomes impossible (or silly) to assume good faith. And while we shouldn't be positively rude even to trolls, it is perfectly necessary to deal with them unceremoniously and without decorum. "troll. blocked." or "rv nonsense." aren't civil statements, but they are matter-of-fact statements (as opposed to hysterical personal attacks), and often perfectly appropriate. dab (𒁳) 11:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this essay should also be included in all the other essays at the bottom of the page. The other essays listed are relevant, and so is this, since it outlines a core philosophy on how to better stay civil. 68.143.88.2 19:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
All I'm saying is it is a very relevant essay and I believe it would help associate the core concepts of this policy to contributors that it might otherwise not reach. Basically, the point is that it would improve the encyclopedia as a whole to have the essay accessible though this highly viewed policy, especially one a lot of the people that review this article are, in-fact, probably displaying non-civil behavior and clicked on a link on their user:talk page. 68.143.88.2 19:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
You say the essay is "marginal", but I beg to differ. And it would seem the essay has many followers. Don't give a fuckism, as an essay, is good. How are you rating this essay? I'm not sure I understand where you come up with "marginal". I'm not sure about adding it to WP:CIVIL, but I don't think it would hurt either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.14.113 ( talk) 21:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I have suffered from a series of misconducts committed by the user:Brincos. Regardless I was cleared off from the sockpuppetry charge raised by user:Brincos, he keep calling me as a sockpuppeteer in my user talk box [user talk:patriotmissile] and [talk:korea university].
In addition, he called me as a dog in the [[talk:sky (schools)] box. Moreover he threatened me without any clear reason in my talk box. He claimed that I did misconduct rightafter I replied to the sentence made by [User:Boromir's Regret]. All I have done was replied to user:Brincos remark, 'Please try to think before writing something. Brincos 22:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)' by adding the line, "Likewise, as you saidPatriotmissile 23:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)". I think he is trying to put some excuses to make me convicted from Wikipedia. I certainly feel tight threatens from the words made by user:Brincos.
At last, I think he made a confession on his committing an user-computer hacking in the [talk:sky (schools)]. He added the lines as follows; 'I like discussion, but think that I need to stop because I found Goldenapex, Patriotmissile, Antiskku had used computer in the same area so I am very suspicious of your multiple log-on. (This is not that hard for me. I am a computer scientist.)'. He clearly stated that he found that those three users were logged on the same area. As I know, there's no way, but knowing this by hacking. Is there any official means to know the user's log-on area supported by Wipedia? As I know, there's no such means. I feel very upset because I feel like I am tracked down by [user:Brincos]. Please check above accusations. Patriotmissile 00:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC) Patriotmissile 00:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been working with User:SJ to get this user to realize the basis behind WP:CIV. A few hours ago this comment was made where SJ made a statement (which has been made before) that "your edits make articles worse" and followed it with a statement that I should get off Wikipedia and stop editing. I responded with a kinder note [4] but am requesting a neutral person contact this user and state that it is indeed the case that such comments are unproductive and not in the spirt of WP:CIV. I am not asking for a block or any kind of punishment, just someone unrelated to comment. Thank you! - OberRanks 03:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems that I've seen has been a tendency in some contentious areas to engage in casual libel, usually not actionable in a US context but IANAL so don't take that as legal advice. I would find such libel to be remarkably uncivil but the only mention I find here regarding the problem is an admonition that even when accurate, one should not call someone a libeler.
This seems remarkably incomplete. Is this covered in a different document? How *is* one supposed to deal with libel? At the very minimum, I would think a link to the proper document would be needed. TMLutas 20:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Like others I have been disappointed by the amount of incivility I have seen (not directed at myself, but I have seen it).
Here's the most recent example I saw:
I think that is uncivil. Do you agree?
Should I leave a note on the uncivil user's page that he was uncivil? I'm not sure that I have ever seen a warning - and there is no standard warning - about incivility and I don't know that it would do any good. If the community had an ongoing campaign against incivility and admins were prepared to actually do something about it, then warnings might accomplish some good. But if I am the only guy issuing such warnings then I might just be tilting at windmills.
Is there any prospect of community-wide action against incivility? Jimbo's recent comment, "Many good admins have lamented to me lately that there is a real problem with civility in Wikipedia", is somewhat encouraging but are there any signs of action? Sbowers3 02:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
(uindenting) Whatever flaws I might have, I still would appreciate replies to my original questions. Sbowers3 06:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Pointing out to someone that they're being uncivil without being so yourself can be difficult. One wishes not only avoid hypocrisy, but also to ModelDesiredBehavior. I think the best way to do it is to approach the editor in a different context - on their own talk page, or via email, if you trust them in that way. A good thing to say would be something like,
If you really set a high standard of class and civility, then many people will react by rising to it; conversely, if you allow yourself to make derogatory or insulting remarks, or to respond to conflict heavy-handedly, then you may well inspire others to do the same. If you are vere professional and polite, and they come back at you rudely, then getting someone else to look at the situation is probably your best bet. Needless to say, saying anything insulting about anybody is a Bad Idea. I hope that helps. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
WP:ICA says that unfounded accusations of impropriety are incivility. Well and good. But three lines down it says that accusations of slander are incivility. Which is it? If someone complains that X has unjustly accused them of impropriety they are de facto accusing X of slander. To read this document, complaining that one (or a third party) is the target of incivility is itself incivil. Egfrank ( talk) 15:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Reform is needed for this guideline. Yes, it is very important to be civil. Yet this guideline has been abused many times by editors. A simply disagreeance over something on an article can be listed as "uncivil", rather than truly uncivil comments, such as "I hate you, go away." and the like. This guideline needs to make it clear that a disagreeance, misunderstanding, etc. is not uncivil, but comments such as "I hate you", just about anything target to (someone/some people) that uses a swear to describe them, or having no care at all for respect of human values are uncivil. Otherwise this guideline will get further abused. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a line or two to the policy indicating that even justified warnings must be worded with care and civility.
I recently observed a WP:WQA where a user complained about the civility of a warning. Rather than deal with the civility complaint, one or more of the Wikiquette volunteers began attacking the complainant. They justified their behavior by claiming that the wording didn't matter because the warning itself was justified.
Common sense (and parenting/teaching/management 101) says this kind of reaction is unhelpful . The goal of a warning is behavior change. A warning's message is most likely to be effective if the warned editor is not distracted by overly emphatic, rude, disrespectful, or otherwise impolite wording.
I don't have a specific wording in mind, yet. Any suggestions or discussion? Egfrank ( talk) 06:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I need help about this editor who suggested discussing further a topic at a certain article's talk page.
Last night, I read up on the editor's proposal to discuss differences of two variants of a topic, and when I cited WP:NOT#FORUM, the editor suddenly responded in a manner akin to a personal attack. It may have bordered somewhat on biting, even if I have been registered for nearly one year. He asked me to compare each other's contributions then told me to chase down something else...even criticised my talk page as, quote 'virginal,' unquote. I haven't seen that guy's contributions and I don't intend to anytime soon, lest i inflate his ego even more than it is right now.
I made a small reply and studied the civility procedures (was even tempted to erase the response because of WP:CIVIL violations), but I was visibly irked because some Wikipedians are acting holier-than-thou, just because what, they have made tons of contributions and archived a bunch of threads on their talk pages? Sounds like arrogance. I'm at my wit's end. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Eaglestorm ( talk) 06:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
While many consider word ignorant to be uncivil, proposing articles for deletions is somehow always a civil act.
It happens so often that people propose articles for deletion on topics they know nothing about, or think they know something.
Maybe suggestion of civil behavior could be before AfD, try to add what you think is missing.
Thanks for considering adding something along these lines into the policy.
Lakinekaki ( talk) 03:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
In the policy it says "The offended person may realize that the words were not always meant literally, and could decide to forgive and forget them." does this mean it's okay to use strong language but the person who cops it has sto accept it? To me, it seems contradictory to the article, in a way.
On another point, at the reference desk, an editor used "bloody" and "crap" in a heated negative response to someone who passed on an anecdote about a psychic they met. The responding editor was in favour of being factual while accusing the person in the story this way, "If we continue to believe all of the lies and deceptions from people like this woman, we'll forever be in the dark ages." [5] The lack of NPOV and the aggression on a reference desk spun me out. I commented about the argument and the tone but I don't feel strong enough to tackle the uncivility thing, so what to do – just let it happen? Julia Rossi ( talk) 04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Civility#Examples lists among "Petty examples that contribute to an uncivil environment"
"Ill-considered accusations of impropriety of one kind or another (cite as
WP:ICA)"
"Impropriety" is stated here to be important and inappropriate, yet is left wholly undefined.
I assume that "improper" behaviors here are assumed to be those which violate Wikipedia policies --
Wikipedia:Harassment,
Wikipedia:No legal threats,
discrimination (religious, ethnic, or other) or
racism,
slander, etc, (See
Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Disruption and
Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Personal_attacks for lists) -- and that we can just link the use of the word "Impropriety" here to an appropriate page or pages.
At any rate, let's define this so as to eliminate misunderstandings.
Thanks. --
Writtenonsand (
talk)
12:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Should we mention the use of being polite and using diplomacy in the act of being civil? For example:
"Civility also includes the use of diplomacy, where users are expected to use neutral language when dealing with a hostile or contraversal situation."
-- Karn-b 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I subscribe to the idea that people are naturally good, but that sometimes people don't know when they're being uncivil. Maybe a template should be created to be inserted into a talk page, on request by admins, which will gently inform a user they have been uncivil, give a relevant example, and point them to this page.
For example:
"Wikipedia subscribes to the ideal that all contributors are editing with goodwill, and are all trying to improve the content of the article. Language which may be insulting to other users maybe counter productive, and focus the efforts of editors from improving the article to counter-productive arguments."
-- Karn-b 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sonic,Pikachu,and Snorunt 13:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)13:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)People are cursing!
How is "fixed sloppy spelling" being rude? If someone takes that as rude, I'd say they either need to learn to spell better or be thankful that someone fixed their mistakes. - JNighthawk 15:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how "sloppy" is offensive at all. People should take care when they edit an article. If they can't take five seconds and run a quick spell check, Wikipedia is better off without them. Modor 11:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)Modor
My personal hate is being patronised, and I am slightly disappointed that there is no mention of it in these pages, as a new contributor I have been subjected to a particular user making condescending comments and find this offensive.
These mainly revolve around policys and guidelines, and my lack of minute knowledge of these, allied to being a new contributor.
Any comments on this particular topic(I fully expect the one who is patronising me to arrive on this topic and start their discourse anew). Cheers. Belbo Casaubon 00:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made a proposal regarding this recently deleted template. See Tagging uncivil users. [1] -- ElectricEye ( talk) 08:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it uncivil to mention previous editors in the edit summary in the following fashion: "fixed missorting by Suzy Queue" ? Novickas 15:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The worst part of this policy is that this there are no consequences for being uncivil. If you contribute to Wikipedia and accuse other people of completely false things and talk in a degrading way, admins can't do jack all. Look at User:Mais oui!, User_talk:Donteatyellowsnow. There's no point other than to say please be nice. Langara College 01:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
In my personal opinion, the failure of any editor or admin to acknowledge and/or answer legitimately serious questions about contributions, references and WP guidelines to be a case of incivility. Any editor, but especially new editors are going to make errors. Those errors are going to result in all types of actions the new editors may or may not understand such as COI, POV issues, notability, verifiability, deletion protocols, reverts etc and require further inquiry to understand fully. When questions are clearly posed to specific editors or admins on talk or discussion pages in a civil way and there is a clear expectation that the editor/admin will see the question, those editors/admins should do one of two things:
Both these actions are the civil thing to do. Failure to acknowledge a serious question, asked in good faith is just uncivil. The editor asking the question may not like the answer, and may not even like being told by the specific editor that they choose not to answer, but that’s OK. But asking a question that goes unacknowledged and/or unanswered is extremely frustrating and very un-collaborative. I think that Failure on the part of editors and admins to acknowledge and/or answer serious good faith questions by other editors should be included in the list of incivilities.-- Mike Cline 13:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I've go a user who's accused me inventing content/policy, made insulting comments against me, and has consistently been using a very aggressive and accusation tone for about a month. I've informally warned them, and so has another user, but they have persisted. I'd like to cite them under NPA or Civility, but I can't find out how to. Some help would be appreciated (for some reason the incivility etc boiler plates don't seem to be clearly accessible).
perfectblue 07:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Are there any proposals to creating consequences for people who don't obey WP:CIVIL? It seems people can get away with being a WP:DICK for a long time without any real significant consequences. -- Craigtalbert 01:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I added this information to the "caution the offender" section. Radiant deleted it. Anyone else have an opinion on whether or not it would be appropriate?
When leaving a comment on a user's talkpage, it is helpful to include a section title and edit summary such as "Civility," which can be of use later if it is necessary to go through a user's history to prove a pattern of ignoring warnings and persisting with uncivil behavior. It may also be useful to look at the history of a user's talkpage to see if there have already been recent cautions from other users.
One or two cautions about civility are generally not seen as sufficient basis to take action against a user. But, if it can be shown that multiple users in good standing have been cautioning an editor about civility, then it may be time to escalate the matter, such as via a user conduct Request for Comment. Please note that this step should not be taken for minor infractions or in a simple one-on-one dispute, but only in a case where multiple users have attempted to address an ongoing problem. If a user conduct RfC is not "certified" by at least two users, it will be deleted.
Personally I think it's useful to give these kinds of instructions. In my experience, when an editor is repeatedly uncivil, they usually react to civility cautions by just deleting them off their talkpage, and this method of sweeping things under the rug enables them to coast without official action for quite awhile. However, if we encourage the victims to use a gentle but more standardized method of cautioning them, then it makes a pattern of problem behavior easier to spot, and easier to document if it's necessary to dig through someone's talkpage history for an eventual RfC or RfAr. -- El on ka 16:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I've got a question to ask about Civility. Let's say there is a discussion that goes very heated that you can actually feel there may be conflict doing on. Would that be considered incivil? I see many disputes around the place where both sides won't compromise, and an awful argument arise. Kylohk 15:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
With regards to, "Judgmental tone in edit summaries ("fixed sloppy spelling", "snipped rambling crap")" - I was about to go ahead and be bold and change this to something like, "Judgemental tone in edit summaries and comments about [or regarding?] articles." I was going to do this because sometimes in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion (I'm sure this would apply elsewhere) people make comments like articles being "rubbish" or "people wasting their time" (in reference to good faith contributions, and these are just isolated examples), etc. Does anyone have any objections or support or suggestions on how to implement this, or would just being bold be appropriate?
I bring this up in reference to a comment "Seriously, do I actually need [sic] to go into detail as to why this sort of fancruft rubbish [sic] shouldn't be poisoning Wikipedia further?" On this page: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Kenny's_deaths. The the user's opinion about the article should be respected, but perhaps to create a more positive environment they should be more sensitive to the editors who contribute to article about Southpark (or any topic for that matter) and who act in good faith. -- R e m i 20:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, so i was blocked because of political beliefs. User:Ymous
this was the parting shot:
"*Yawn. Oh well, perhaps you are right. There, I said it. Feel free to consider your block a pyrrhic victory. At any rate, playtime is over; talk page protected from further trolling"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CIVIL
Yep.
I was told it is proper ettiquette to use profanities like cunt, cock and fuck when making suggestions for changes in articles. I am against this. If wiki wants to appear scholarly these words should not be used. I think there should be a rule on this. For instance I would not want my 10 year old daughter to attempt a conversation on a talk page and then have someone say
[[ == "I don't write the fucking definitions" ==]]
as a response back to her. Now that happened to me and I asked the editor not to talk like that and he said it was not against the rules.
I think this should be changed. I do not think children should be exposed to that kind of language and actually neither should adults in this type of forum.
ProtoCat 13:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
thanks for starting it. RodentofDeath 04:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
How civil is labeling fellow editors with nouns based on their work, views and nationality? For example Ive been here for a month and Ive already been labeled as a "meatpuppet" and "problematic Estonian nationalist"(Being called meatpuppet is plain insulting and my nationality is Estonian, but I am no nationalist)... Where does policy stand on such labeling? -- Alexia Death 20:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I put the essay on the "see also".-- Cerejota 01:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
On my talk page, there is a threat of legal action over Acen Ravzi, from the alleged producer who keeps replacing the earlier text, which he claims is incorrect, with POV copyright (which he claims to own) spam. I'm not losing sleep, but I can't find the policy regarding legal threats. Any ideas? I'm out all day, so for the time being I've deleted and protected the page to call a halt. Jimfbleak 05:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a link to a forum whose purpose is to discuss topics with civil, non-vulgar, non-hateful, non-spiteful.... well the word civil pretty much sums up how you can debate. It is very well monitored and debaters are chastised and even removed if they become uncivil. It is censored for profanity and vulgarity automatically, and further censoring is accomplished by the moderator. I placed this link up here last week and someone felt it necessary to remove - I'm sure because they thought I was promoting some gain of my own, but I'm really just trying to help anyone interested in civility out so that we can all discuss things together. This is not a profitable site, membership is free I have nothing at all, nor do the site's operators, by anyone visiting or joining except for the conversation you may choose to take part in. Please allow this link to stay.
Why isn't this a "behaviourial guideline", like WP:BITE, WP:AGF, WP:POINT, etc? Mel sa ran 13:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
this page is getting out of hand. I see that even "calling for a ban" was listed as prohibited "incivility". WP:CIVIL is important, but it cannot be enforced, because people's standards vary enormously: it can only be enforced stringently once "incivility" has clearly given way to " NPAvio". It is de facto a guideline, and in fact not more than a corollary of WP:DICK. Some people will even call "WP:CIVIL" when they are pointed to WP:DICK ("how dare you call me a dick"...) WP:CIVIL is important, but it is just as important that we do not allow it to be used as a pretext to dodge the issue of blatant bad faith. WP:CIVIL should never be construed as a prohibition of calling bullshit bullshit, or bad faith bad faith. WP:AGF is subject to WP:UCS. Hell, every policy is subject to WP:UCS. At some point, it becomes impossible (or silly) to assume good faith. And while we shouldn't be positively rude even to trolls, it is perfectly necessary to deal with them unceremoniously and without decorum. "troll. blocked." or "rv nonsense." aren't civil statements, but they are matter-of-fact statements (as opposed to hysterical personal attacks), and often perfectly appropriate. dab (𒁳) 11:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this essay should also be included in all the other essays at the bottom of the page. The other essays listed are relevant, and so is this, since it outlines a core philosophy on how to better stay civil. 68.143.88.2 19:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
All I'm saying is it is a very relevant essay and I believe it would help associate the core concepts of this policy to contributors that it might otherwise not reach. Basically, the point is that it would improve the encyclopedia as a whole to have the essay accessible though this highly viewed policy, especially one a lot of the people that review this article are, in-fact, probably displaying non-civil behavior and clicked on a link on their user:talk page. 68.143.88.2 19:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
You say the essay is "marginal", but I beg to differ. And it would seem the essay has many followers. Don't give a fuckism, as an essay, is good. How are you rating this essay? I'm not sure I understand where you come up with "marginal". I'm not sure about adding it to WP:CIVIL, but I don't think it would hurt either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.14.113 ( talk) 21:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I have suffered from a series of misconducts committed by the user:Brincos. Regardless I was cleared off from the sockpuppetry charge raised by user:Brincos, he keep calling me as a sockpuppeteer in my user talk box [user talk:patriotmissile] and [talk:korea university].
In addition, he called me as a dog in the [[talk:sky (schools)] box. Moreover he threatened me without any clear reason in my talk box. He claimed that I did misconduct rightafter I replied to the sentence made by [User:Boromir's Regret]. All I have done was replied to user:Brincos remark, 'Please try to think before writing something. Brincos 22:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)' by adding the line, "Likewise, as you saidPatriotmissile 23:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)". I think he is trying to put some excuses to make me convicted from Wikipedia. I certainly feel tight threatens from the words made by user:Brincos.
At last, I think he made a confession on his committing an user-computer hacking in the [talk:sky (schools)]. He added the lines as follows; 'I like discussion, but think that I need to stop because I found Goldenapex, Patriotmissile, Antiskku had used computer in the same area so I am very suspicious of your multiple log-on. (This is not that hard for me. I am a computer scientist.)'. He clearly stated that he found that those three users were logged on the same area. As I know, there's no way, but knowing this by hacking. Is there any official means to know the user's log-on area supported by Wipedia? As I know, there's no such means. I feel very upset because I feel like I am tracked down by [user:Brincos]. Please check above accusations. Patriotmissile 00:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC) Patriotmissile 00:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been working with User:SJ to get this user to realize the basis behind WP:CIV. A few hours ago this comment was made where SJ made a statement (which has been made before) that "your edits make articles worse" and followed it with a statement that I should get off Wikipedia and stop editing. I responded with a kinder note [4] but am requesting a neutral person contact this user and state that it is indeed the case that such comments are unproductive and not in the spirt of WP:CIV. I am not asking for a block or any kind of punishment, just someone unrelated to comment. Thank you! - OberRanks 03:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems that I've seen has been a tendency in some contentious areas to engage in casual libel, usually not actionable in a US context but IANAL so don't take that as legal advice. I would find such libel to be remarkably uncivil but the only mention I find here regarding the problem is an admonition that even when accurate, one should not call someone a libeler.
This seems remarkably incomplete. Is this covered in a different document? How *is* one supposed to deal with libel? At the very minimum, I would think a link to the proper document would be needed. TMLutas 20:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Like others I have been disappointed by the amount of incivility I have seen (not directed at myself, but I have seen it).
Here's the most recent example I saw:
I think that is uncivil. Do you agree?
Should I leave a note on the uncivil user's page that he was uncivil? I'm not sure that I have ever seen a warning - and there is no standard warning - about incivility and I don't know that it would do any good. If the community had an ongoing campaign against incivility and admins were prepared to actually do something about it, then warnings might accomplish some good. But if I am the only guy issuing such warnings then I might just be tilting at windmills.
Is there any prospect of community-wide action against incivility? Jimbo's recent comment, "Many good admins have lamented to me lately that there is a real problem with civility in Wikipedia", is somewhat encouraging but are there any signs of action? Sbowers3 02:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
(uindenting) Whatever flaws I might have, I still would appreciate replies to my original questions. Sbowers3 06:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Pointing out to someone that they're being uncivil without being so yourself can be difficult. One wishes not only avoid hypocrisy, but also to ModelDesiredBehavior. I think the best way to do it is to approach the editor in a different context - on their own talk page, or via email, if you trust them in that way. A good thing to say would be something like,
If you really set a high standard of class and civility, then many people will react by rising to it; conversely, if you allow yourself to make derogatory or insulting remarks, or to respond to conflict heavy-handedly, then you may well inspire others to do the same. If you are vere professional and polite, and they come back at you rudely, then getting someone else to look at the situation is probably your best bet. Needless to say, saying anything insulting about anybody is a Bad Idea. I hope that helps. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
WP:ICA says that unfounded accusations of impropriety are incivility. Well and good. But three lines down it says that accusations of slander are incivility. Which is it? If someone complains that X has unjustly accused them of impropriety they are de facto accusing X of slander. To read this document, complaining that one (or a third party) is the target of incivility is itself incivil. Egfrank ( talk) 15:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Reform is needed for this guideline. Yes, it is very important to be civil. Yet this guideline has been abused many times by editors. A simply disagreeance over something on an article can be listed as "uncivil", rather than truly uncivil comments, such as "I hate you, go away." and the like. This guideline needs to make it clear that a disagreeance, misunderstanding, etc. is not uncivil, but comments such as "I hate you", just about anything target to (someone/some people) that uses a swear to describe them, or having no care at all for respect of human values are uncivil. Otherwise this guideline will get further abused. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 21:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add a line or two to the policy indicating that even justified warnings must be worded with care and civility.
I recently observed a WP:WQA where a user complained about the civility of a warning. Rather than deal with the civility complaint, one or more of the Wikiquette volunteers began attacking the complainant. They justified their behavior by claiming that the wording didn't matter because the warning itself was justified.
Common sense (and parenting/teaching/management 101) says this kind of reaction is unhelpful . The goal of a warning is behavior change. A warning's message is most likely to be effective if the warned editor is not distracted by overly emphatic, rude, disrespectful, or otherwise impolite wording.
I don't have a specific wording in mind, yet. Any suggestions or discussion? Egfrank ( talk) 06:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I need help about this editor who suggested discussing further a topic at a certain article's talk page.
Last night, I read up on the editor's proposal to discuss differences of two variants of a topic, and when I cited WP:NOT#FORUM, the editor suddenly responded in a manner akin to a personal attack. It may have bordered somewhat on biting, even if I have been registered for nearly one year. He asked me to compare each other's contributions then told me to chase down something else...even criticised my talk page as, quote 'virginal,' unquote. I haven't seen that guy's contributions and I don't intend to anytime soon, lest i inflate his ego even more than it is right now.
I made a small reply and studied the civility procedures (was even tempted to erase the response because of WP:CIVIL violations), but I was visibly irked because some Wikipedians are acting holier-than-thou, just because what, they have made tons of contributions and archived a bunch of threads on their talk pages? Sounds like arrogance. I'm at my wit's end. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Eaglestorm ( talk) 06:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
While many consider word ignorant to be uncivil, proposing articles for deletions is somehow always a civil act.
It happens so often that people propose articles for deletion on topics they know nothing about, or think they know something.
Maybe suggestion of civil behavior could be before AfD, try to add what you think is missing.
Thanks for considering adding something along these lines into the policy.
Lakinekaki ( talk) 03:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
In the policy it says "The offended person may realize that the words were not always meant literally, and could decide to forgive and forget them." does this mean it's okay to use strong language but the person who cops it has sto accept it? To me, it seems contradictory to the article, in a way.
On another point, at the reference desk, an editor used "bloody" and "crap" in a heated negative response to someone who passed on an anecdote about a psychic they met. The responding editor was in favour of being factual while accusing the person in the story this way, "If we continue to believe all of the lies and deceptions from people like this woman, we'll forever be in the dark ages." [5] The lack of NPOV and the aggression on a reference desk spun me out. I commented about the argument and the tone but I don't feel strong enough to tackle the uncivility thing, so what to do – just let it happen? Julia Rossi ( talk) 04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Civility#Examples lists among "Petty examples that contribute to an uncivil environment"
"Ill-considered accusations of impropriety of one kind or another (cite as
WP:ICA)"
"Impropriety" is stated here to be important and inappropriate, yet is left wholly undefined.
I assume that "improper" behaviors here are assumed to be those which violate Wikipedia policies --
Wikipedia:Harassment,
Wikipedia:No legal threats,
discrimination (religious, ethnic, or other) or
racism,
slander, etc, (See
Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Disruption and
Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Personal_attacks for lists) -- and that we can just link the use of the word "Impropriety" here to an appropriate page or pages.
At any rate, let's define this so as to eliminate misunderstandings.
Thanks. --
Writtenonsand (
talk)
12:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)