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Like journals, essays and reports, can articles be referenced with e.g. (Sugar, 1937)? Simply south 17:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I am sure I've seen somewhere a statement to the effect that lead paragraphs do not need to have embedded footnotes if the information is repeated in the body of the article and is properly referenced there. However, I can't find any such statement and it may have been in an FAC discussion, rather than in a guideline. If such as statement does exist in guideline, I'd appreciate a reference. I've seen a couple of "unreferenced" tags go on articles recently, just referring to the lead, and I don't feel that's appropriate but I'd like to find a policy statement (if one exists) to back me up. See James McCune Smith for an example; the editor who added the note used the edit summary "Intro needs them". Thanks -- Mike Christie (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
What if I want to cite an interview that I conducted, but do not have a transcript or recording, just a report on my findings? -- thedemonhog talk contributions 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
interviews are considered common knowledge, not requiring citing in MLA format because you could get it from anybody that even lives in the same city as the person. usually a person propagates information about himself, so therefore you could get the information from multiple people.
In WP:CITE#Citation templates it says "editors should not add templates without consensus", but what about the removal of templates? // Liftarn
A user without a userpage: User:Chestertouristcom, but with a talk page: User talk:Chestertouristcom, and who seems to have a very strong link with an external site: Chester Tourist External Site has added a lot, probably the bulk, of the material to Deva Victrix, which was originally under a different name, and before that, was a part of another article. This material is almost entirely unsourced and unreferenced. I tagged the article as being in need of references back in January 2007. Nothing was done, and the user continued to add a lot of unsourced and unreferenced material. I left a message on the user's talk page on 25th February 2007, asking for citations and references to be added, and this was followed up by an email to the user, but no response was received and new unreferenced material continued to be added up to the middle of March when it stopped.
The problem is, what to do? We are supposed to require entries to be adequately sourced and referenced, and yet hardly any of the material for Deva Victrix is. It will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to attempt to produce references for this material retrospectively when one isn't even the original author, especially so if one does not have a specialised knowledge of this topic. I have asked for assistance on the other wikiproject that has a template on the talk page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Archaeology but as yet received no response.
My feeling is that one could simply delete all the material, but I imagine this would cause some consternation in certain quarters (the removal of an external site whose inclusion had not been justified has already caused some negative comment about my action by another user.) The article would then probably be almost just a stub article with a lot of photos. Could I ask for some comments on what to do here? Many thanks. DDStretch (talk) 23:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Those editors using the book template seem to be routinely leaving out the page numbers in their footnotes. Also, if the citation is referred to numerous times, it would become difficult to follow the page numbers if they actually included it (imagine: 14; 20; 198; 30; 67; 90; 378). I suggest that either wikipedia discontinue the use of the book template since it encourages users to simply cite an entire book, not a specific page, or demand that they include a separate footnote for each citation that includes a page number. Such a policy should be made explicitly clear on [[WP:ATT] or WP:CITE. Awadewit 23:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It is worth remembering that page numbers can depend on edition, and although citation demands edition data, readers trying to follow up in any much-reissued book may find only a different edition and quite altered pagination. Thus page numbers are not always a complete answer to finding cited text. Iph 18:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
This issue has been discussed before, and it was decided that there is no need to change the titles to author-date. Google seems to show no or little preference, and the ArbCom has ruled that, in the absense of pressing reasons, there is no need to change terms more common in the UK than in the U.S., and vice versa.
The last time I checked this on Google, the searches returned:
SlimVirgin (talk) 01:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this section means, so I've moved it here in the meantime. Can someone explain? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the archiving of this talk page, otherwise what comes next looks untidy. If SlimVirgin now sees what the section on free sources was trying to achieve (possibly needing better phrasing, I agree), then to remove the section seems to have been premature. Likewise archiving off above recent threads is unhelpful to understanding the overall discussion on this (see section above Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Free_sources vs Wikipedia_talk:Cite_sources/archive15#Free_sources) - a thread with last posting just 1 week ago is too fresh to be archived off surely, especially when a whole article section is deleted 3 days prior ? David Ruben Talk 21:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there a convention on whether or not to include the relevant quotation from a source in the citation? ShadowHalo 04:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I right to suppose that Wikipedia must not contain references to illegal material (in terms of copyright)? There is a discussion whether the tv documentary posted on youtube could be a valid ref . Alaexis 11:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The current how to cite section describes 3 possible techniques, (embedded, harvard, footnotes), and then immediately describes the citation templates, a topic not required for any of these methods. The how to cite section should get new editors inserting some form of citation as quickly and painlessly as possible. Often editors seeking citation help have no idea how to use a template, and a lesson on templates should not divert their efforts to add citations. The correct location for citation template information is as a sub-heading under 'full citations', where they can be used in conjunction with any of the 3 methods. Editors capable of using the templates will find the citation templates after selecting embedded/harvard/footnotes as an option for full citations. My attempted move was reverted ( diff ), so I bring it up here for discussion. ∴ here… ♠ 06:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has been discussed previously: Is there a view that we must always make references visible? Articles with long references sections sometimes look ugly and a reader may be uninterested in browsing the references. I was imagining references and notes being placed inside a collapsible table with a hide/show button (defaulting to hide). Is there a view on this idea? — Moondyne 16:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
On the page that I have recently been maintaining titled "Pine Creek High School", many "(citation needed)" links have popped up. I am a student at Pine Creek, and I know for a fact that the things I say about my school are true. For example, the choirs that I have listed are from my own knowledge of the choirs that I am enrolled in, and I have verified these facts with the choral instructor. How do I get rid of these links? Why do I have to cite information that is my own? (12 April 2007) Live your life 17 01:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Once I came across an article with not a {{references}} or {{fact}} tag but a label saying an article with a list of general references needs more in-line citations. It wasn't aimed at specific information but a good general statement. This is good for long articles for which we have no idea how or which part of the general references (often books with no page no.s) were used. Does anyone know this label? Kind regards -- Merbabu 14:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the past the ue of <small> has always been discouraged; aside from anything else, it can cause problems for people with visual impairments as well as for those using small monitors. The main MoS on citations doesn't mention its use, but it's crept in to a great many articles, is part of citation templates, and appears on some MoS sub pages. Where would be the bext place to have its use discussed? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 15:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is in the wrong discussion section, if it is let me know where this needs to go.
Anyway: I know that this was already up for deletion, but I'm going to dedicate to myself to this one issue (look at how boring and single minded my profile is!):
The citation needed tags are useless. I can't say this enough. As an editor, there's something in an article you doubt, look it up. If you find something, cite the link, if you can't in good faith find anything to verify another user's claim, then delete it, obviously it doesn't belong there. People who are using them are essentially shrugging off work they're fully capable of doing. I feel strongly about wikipedia citing it's sources but a citation needed tag is just lazy.
Let's put this back up for deletion. -- Friendship hurricane 07:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Notice the current discussion about citation date consistency in Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Date formats in cite templates. ( SEWilco 02:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC))
How do you cite the same source multiple times without creating a duplicate footnote? Sr13 ( T| C) 08:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to modify the Mediawiki software to allow users to switch off article quality messages? I'm increasingly finding that my use of Wikipedia is being distracted by the citation needed messages and banners at the top of articles declaring they are disputed, not of neutral tone or of poor quality. While these notes are important for the editors and some readers, for much of my casual rather than formal use of Wikipedia, I don't need to know about disputes, any more than I need to read the talk pages, and their agressive nature is offputting Jrbray 13:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
sup.Template-Fact { display: none; }
It's interesting to see this point-of-view expressed. I wonder how many other casual readers are being put off my what some may see as an overabundance of "butt-covering"? 23skidoo 16:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it that, but it does tend to air dirty linen in public. What is most offputting is the blaring 'this article is poor quality, you must improve it' tone. The CSS suggestion works well, but I suspect there are too many tags, especially stub ones, for it to be truly effective. Wikipedians do need t be less strident to retain their popular support. Jrbray 04:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose changing the order of listed citation styles in Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How_to_cite_sources to:
Secondarily, I prefer a superscripted numeral
[1] or a (Harvard, 278) reference over a blue
arrow used as a textual elephant element.
To sum up:
Please discuss, or point me to prior discussion. -- Lexein 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
1. Can I make persistent private modifications to the Wiki Markup panel below the Edit window?
2. Is there an existing tool or bot which automates conversion of embedded links into cite web or cite news footnote stubs?
3. Where should I have posted these questions? -- Lexein 05:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"The use of citation templates is not required" is being quoted back to me as justification for adding a simple <ref> around a bare url as a substitution for the inline cite in new content. It looks like a mess in the References section.
I would change this text to: "Citations must be formatted to include relevant information such as title, author, date, publisher where relevant. The use of citation templates is a good practice to achieve a uniform appearance, but not required". patsw 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the wording on WP:FOOT to bring it into harmony with the wording on this page WP:CITE. patsw 23:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Request_for_consensus:_External_Links_.3D.3E_Incline_Citation_Bot per user CMummert. -- Paracit 21:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If I have a paragraph consisting of three consecutive sentences backed by the same source, should I put the reference at the end of every sentence? This seems like a good idea, since further editing could lead to the addition of facts not supported by my source but which may appear to be, if the source is cited only on the first or last sentence. I think this should be addressed on the project page. - Seans Potato Business 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If I want to cite something with the ref /ref tags and I want use the citation in two different places in the text for example
Statement 1.[1] Statement 2[2]. Statement 3. [1]
1. reference 1
2. reference 2
how would I do that? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
131.111.47.238 (
talk)
11:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
I tried to read this talk page but I am getting a headache so I'll just put my remarks here. The section Citation templates does say that some templates make articles "harder to edit" What it does not to say is that it also raises the bar on who can edit articles. How many would be editors give up when, after clicking on "edit this page" can not even find the text they want to edit? The first time I ran into it (tet offensive) I thought it might be deliberate to prevent editors with a different POV from editing. I am still not sure that is untrue. KAM 14:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Long in a private collection, the '''Thermopolis Specimen''' (WDC CSG 100) was discovered in Germany and described in 2005 by Mayr, Pohl, and Peters. Donated to the [[Wyoming Dinosaur Center]] in [[Thermopolis, Wyoming]], it has the best-preserved head and feet; most of the neck and the lower jaw have not been preserved. The "Thermopolis" specimen was described in the December 2, 2005 ''Science'' journal article as "A well-preserved ''Archaeopteryx'' specimen with theropod features", shows that the ''Archaeopteryx'' lacked a reversed toe—a universal feature of birds—limiting its ability to perch on branches and implying a terrestrial or trunk-climbing lifestyle.<ref>Mayr G, Pohl B & Peters DS. (2005). ''A well-preserved Archaeopteryx specimen with theropod features''. [[Science (journal)|Science]]. '''310'''(5753): 1483–1486. {{doi|10.1126/science.1120331}} [http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;310/5753/1483/DC1 See commentary on article]</ref> This has been interpreted as evidence of [[Theropoda|theropod]] ancestry. The specimen also has a hyperextendible second toe. "Until now, the feature was thought to belong only to the species' close relatives, the [[Deinonychosauria|deinonychosaurs]]."<ref name ="Natgeo2">[http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1201_051201_archaeopteryx_2.html National Geographic News- ''Earliest Bird Had Feet Like Dinosaur, Fossil Shows''] - Nicholas Bakalar, December 1, 2005, Page 2. Retreived 2006-10-18.</ref> This tenth and latest specimen was assigned to ''Archaeopteryx siemensii'' in 2007.<ref name ="10thfind">Mayr, G., Phol, B., Hartman, S. & Peters, D.S. (2007). ''The tenth skeletal specimen of Archaeopteryx''. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 149, 97–116.</ref> The specimen itself, currently on loan to the [[Senckenberg Museum|Forschungsinstitut Senckenberg]] in [[Frankfurt]], is considered the most complete and well preserved ''Archaeopteryx'' remains yet.<ref name ="10thfind">Mayr, G., Phol, B., Hartman, S. & Peters, D.S. (2007). ''The tenth skeletal specimen of Archaeopteryx''. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 149, 97–116.</ref>
Hello. what is the preferred way to cite the content of a template? I read nesting the cite template inside another template is probably over my head so I am looking for a simple solution. I see three options for Template:MinneapolisPeople. We can do 1) references in 'noinclude' on the template page, or 2) references on the template talk page (to save some page load time/server load), or 3) write out the references and include them in the article itself. There might be other ways. #1 and #3 seem equivalent so just moving them to the article in a set of group 'ref's might be simplest. (This template text is off the article Minneapolis, Minnesota to discourage random additions to the list.) Thank you. - Susanlesch 20:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that assertions similar to this: "The Olympic Council of Asia has announced that Boracay will host the 2014 Asian Beach Games." are often tagged as needing supporting cites. It seems to me that there is an implied citation of the wikilinked pages is assertions similar to this example, but I see no guidance regarding this in this article. -- Boracay Bill 00:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The example above is from the Boracay article. You say that mentioning the wikilinked 2014 Asian Beach Games page in asserting that those games will be held on Boracay is insufficient, and that the guideline on this from WP:CITE (considered a standard that all users should follow) is that the outside source which supports that assertion being cited on the wikilinked 2014 Asian Beach Games page isn't sufficient to support the repetition of that assertion on the Boracay page without duplicating the supprting cite of an outside source as well.
It seems to me that this has profound implications throughout wikipedia. For just one example, think of all the pages which mention that the SCOTUS case Brown v. Board of Education resulted in the landmark ruling that the establishment of separate public schools for black and white students inherently unequal, while wikilinking to that article but without duplicating in the Reference section of each of those articles the cite to the outside source supporting that assertion which is present in the Reference section of the Brown v. Board of Education article.
Another example.. take an article like Status of religious freedom by country. That article lists (presently) 33 individual countries, and summarizes info relating to the subject of the article about each. In many cases, the article references a main article about a particular country, wikilinking that main article, and restates or summarizes info from that article without duplicate the supporting cites for each assertion repeated from those articles -- doing that would make for a very large References section.
There are lots and lots of articles out there which repeat assertions from other articles, mentioning and wikilinking the articles from which the repeated assertions are sourced without duplicating the supporting citations from the wikilinked articles from which the assertions are repeated. -- Boracay Bill 07:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have seen people apply this kind of reasoning on pages which are practically blue (like Internet).
The only solution for a page like that would be to recurse through the web of links and coalesce all the links on one page, eliminating duplicates. However, you would find that strict interpretation of this rule (which is both theoretically possible and is theoretically codable in a bot)... well, strict interpretation would leave every single reference ever made attached to that page (and to every other wiki-page).
That is obviously absurd, so that interpretation of the rule cannot be considered correct.
If you're not sure what I just said. Try to add references to Internet, by getting all the references from the subpages. No wait, don't actually do that... just think about what that would mean? The entire list of references would be longer than the article itself. This is a weaker argument than above, but still, you can see that can't quite be right, right?
A third approach is even simpler. If you need all the references on all the pages... then what was the entire point of wikilinks and different wikipages in the first place? They're there to keep blocks of information (and their associated references) separate and manageable.
Finally, as part of a good divide and conquer algorithm, people should defer references to the furthest-away (as counted by number of links to follow) linked page wherever possible. Refactor as appropriate!
-- Kim Bruning 13:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Ouw, on rereading I'm using really formal language here though. I typically try to sound more silly :-P Lemme scratch my head and translate to english sometime... or is it clear enough to most? -- Kim Bruning 12:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) A rule of thumb I've seen some people advocate is to provide references, not wikilinks, for all quotations, and facts that are likely to be challenged, unless the section indicates there is a main article on the topic (by using Template: Main. Within a section with a Main template, facts need only be wikilinked, not cited, if they are cited in the Main article, but quotations should be cited. This approach seems reasonable to me. -- Gerry Ashton 17:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I am in a small dispute over at Talk:Gospel of John. One editor added a sentence that an author held a specific position and cited a book that the author wrote. I asked the editor to please supply a page number with the citation, and my citation request tag has been repeated removed from the article. We have discussed things on talk, and the editor believes that because this page says page numbers are only required when quoting text, that there is no need for a page number. I say, if the author makes the claim that we say he makes in the article, there has to be a page (or pages) where the author makes the same claim in the book. How does it hurt the article or verifiability to simply add the pages numbers to the citations, right? However, the editors have still refused to supply a simply page number. So, is it unreasonable for me to request that they cite the page when the cite a book?- Andrew c 14:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the {{dubious}} tag (see Template_messages) should be mentioned in WP:CITE#Tagging_unsourced_material, as an "in between" action for unverified facts where the editor isn't sure if the statement is harmful, or for cases where the editor believes the statement is harmful if untrue but is not sure if the statement is true or not. The reason being you do not want to delete a statement that turns out to be true or one that turns out to be harmless. Davidwr 12:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I am editing National Anthem of Manchukuo. I got hold of the government registers for the defunct WWII-era country that is related to this article, and next to the document proclaiming the second anthem there is also an official interpretation of the anthem. Given that anthem was entirely new at that time that there would be no "folklore interpretation", should the official interpretation be considered primary or secondary source? -- Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK· CONTRIBS 15:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been having some disputes regarding IMDb profiles for movie articles. Some editors use them as references, but do not fully cite them. An editor has stated that there is no need to add a full citation, since there are no clear authors for the profiles. Is the editor correct? Or should I place refimprove tags on the articles and request that editors include full citations? Boricuaeddie Talk • Contribs • Spread the love! 23:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section belongs on this page. I think that the content of this section ought to be integrated with WP:GTL, and the info presented there, not here. It would probably be useful, though, to point up on this page that the WP:GTL page should be consulted for information about organizing and maintaining these sections.
I think that both the info now presented in this section and the info in the WP:GTL#Standard_appendices_and_descriptions section have problems. I don't have time to expand on that right now as I'm leaving on a trip within the hour. I will try to get back to that when I have more time to expand on it. One illustration of what I'm talking about, though, might be the recent edit to this section which added (in part) "A References section, which lists citations in alphabetical order, helps readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used." One problem I have with this is that the References section of most articles I've seen has been populated by the cite.php <ref>, </ref> and <References/> tags -- and this forces items into order-of-occurrence order. -- Boracay Bill 02:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I see in WP:GTL##Standard_appendices_and_descriptions
I see in the relevant section of this article
Few (if any) of the wikipedia articles I've seen seem to follow either of these sets of conventions. Most of the articles I've seen place cites of external sources in a section usually named References but sometimes named Notes, usually populated by cite.php tags, which places the cites, arranged arranged in order of appearance, in a numbered list with links and backlinks hooking refs and matching cites together with one another. Footnotes seem to be rare, I sometimes see them collected into a Notes or Footnotes section late in an article (e.g., British_Museum#Notes, Galaxy#Notes, Ethic of reciprocity#Footnotes, Nature#Notes, Plato#Notes, but I more often see them placed below tables (e.g., ASCII#ASCII_control_characters, Religion in India#Demographics, Kent#Economy, Planet#Dwarf_planets).
My point? (1) the guidance offered in this article and in WP:GTL seem to conflict. (2) As a practical matter, neither seems to reflect actual practice within wikipedia very well. I wonder how much practical help guidance in this area from either or both of these article is to editors. -- Boracay Bill 07:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Say an article were describing the plot of a work of fiction that's available online legally. Is it a good idea to cite the work itself when giving plot points? If so, do you need a separate reference for every single plot point?
I'm mainly asking because the list of reference links for Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater), an article about webcomic characters, seems to be getting unnecessarily and ridiculously long, although I'm sure there are many other examples for this phenomenon, especially in webcomic articles. -- R. Wolff 15:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The note about Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater) above brings up an issue. In most articles, having one citation for a sentence generally seems sufficient. If more citations are necessary, they are often combined into a single footnote. Only in highly contentious articles would multiple citations per clause seem justifiable, to me. Is this mentioned anywhere, and if not, would it be appropriate to have text here to the effect that multiple citations should generally be combined into one footnote, if possible? Gimmetrow 15:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I've seen many articles with long plot summaries but no references. Are plot summaries written by the authors of the articles considered original research? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Boricuaeddie ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
Common sense says that a plot summary about the book or movie this article is all about are sourced from the very book or movie. No further citation is needed. You should put the book or movie in the references section, in proper bibliographic format. This is one of those times when not using an explicit reference is not only forgivable but almost the norm. Now, if you are writing a plot summary for something other than what this article is about, then by all means cite properly. For example, if the article is about an author and you write a summary of one of his books, then cite it properly as you would anything else. davidwr 09f9( talk) 04:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The Full citations section is a little confusing to some editors (though to me it is clear). The text clearly states that page numbers are essential and that publisher info and ISBN are optional. However, the listed examples have both the publisher info and ISBN but no page numbers listed. Thus creating a discrepancy. I am currently in a small dispute with another editor at Talk:Gospel of John over including page numbers. I have requested that the editor include page numbers for specific inline citations, and there has been way too much drama over this one small thing.
For WP:CITE, would it make sense to add page numbers in the example citations listed under the "Full Ciations" section? Or have I grossly misunderstood the text portion of the guidelines (also, if interested, you are welcome to give a third opinion over the dispute at Talk:Gospel of John). Thanks for your consideration.- Andrew c 17:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Virtually every year article (e.g., just a random bunch of choices, 1763, 1451, 1128, 205 BC etc.) has no sourcing, some explicitly say they are based on what WP articles linked there (e.g., 455 BC). So the question is: are a few thousand articles the "occasional exception" noted in the guideline, or should the guideline either be modified to be more inclusive, or should all the content of virtually every year article be tagged with {{fact}} and after no one bothers to notice or repeat the sources in the linked articles then be deleted? Seems to me the guideline should yield to common sense, relying on editors at the various articles that link to 1763; however, without a leap of trust we won't know that when someone adds "George Bush is born" to 1693 that George Bush really links there, or the tag is added to 2000 and we don't know that even though there exists a link, that link has nothing to do with his birth. It is a series of the most linked articles at WP so if we believe people follow links, the issue is a common one with a high degree of noticeability particularly where vandalism, misinformation, or just unsourced stuff gets added to already unsourced articles. Carlossuarez46 02:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This page previously gave no hint that Template:Citation has additional linking functionality that makes it particularly suitable for Harvard referencing used with inline {{ Harvard citation}} templates, and effectively recommended {{ cite book}} and {{ cite journal}} which lack that functionality, but are a complete pain to change over if an article is "upgraded" to Harvard referencing. Having raised the problem at Wikipedia talk:Citation templates#Template:Harvard reference obsolete? I've boldly amended both articles to draw attention to this template as an option. ..... dave souza, talk 12:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
...apologies if I'm being dim-witted, but I'm a bit confused about something. I am currently reworking the article on Joseph Szigeti, who was a writer as well as a violinist so a lot of my references come from his own books. (His memoirs, and a book about violin playing as he understood it.) However, in one case, the reference I need is from the introduction to one of Sz.'s books, and the introduction was written by a friend of his, one Mr. Spike Hughes. So who do I attribute the reference to? I suspect I should use something like "Hughes, Spike; introduction to Szigeti on the Violin by Joseph Szigeti, Dover Publications, 1979", but could someone advise me on what best to do? Thanks, K. Lásztocska 03:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
~~My name is Anita Nehr. I am the subject's wife and was assigned to establish the Wikipedia listing for my husband and to set his history down. I placed a basic outline down and was going to go back and put things in more detail as I got more information from his family as most speak German and I have to translate. I find the site now "Locking me out". How to I gain exclusive access to complete this historical editing of his page and further updating as his political career progresses. this is my only contribution to him as my gift to him. Please help me to understand what it is I am doing wrong. Thank you in advance for your help. Anita
Anita, I see no indication that you have been locked out of Wikipedia. Your user name is Anitanehr and your account is not blocked. What do you mean that you are locked out? On the other hand, what do you mean by gaining "exclusive access"? No one has exclusive access to Wikipedia articles; everyone has equal access. Also, the fact that you are the subjects wife and were "assigned to establish the Wikipedia listing for [your] husband" suggests the potential for violating the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest policy. I am putting a copy of this exchange on your Talk page. Finell (Talk) 07:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I have access to Lexis-Nexis through my University account and I wanted to make sure that citations were ok. Normally I just add the citation as it appears in the L-N archive. So two questions: (1)Is it necessary to show that the info came via this online resource, and if so, (2)is there a template to show that I accessed it through L-N? (I normally use the 'citenews' template for references). R. Baley 09:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey, just something I've been thinking about as I peruse and edit etc... Doesn't it make sense for Wikipedia to just pick one reference style and use it uniformly? That way it can both be optimized (in terms of templates and such, for formatting/style consistency), as well as predictable. It just seems strange that an author can just pick whatever citation system s/he feels is best. I personally feel footnotes make the most sense, since they are automatically updated by a single tag in the article body, rather than the other two systems which require the maintenence of separate reference lists. Of course, reference lists can be useful for people looking to do further research, but is that enough to justify including those other formats? And isn't it ironic that the article on Wikipedia:Harvard_referencing uses footnotes? Yuletide 20:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
What is wikipedia's policy on citing sources that are not available on the web. Say for example citing a source from an old book with the ISBN or citing a journal. Short of taking a walk to the library there is no way to verify that the source actually exists or if it does is the information cited correctly. I see this quite frequently in many articles. Muntuwandi 22:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to ask for help regarding the proper way of citing the references section of this article: Unreferenced Section of Fly Fishing. Should a separate section be added (may be a 'Notes' section) so that those footnotes be separated from those references using the Harvard referencing method. Bu b0y2007 15:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I know this would be non-trivial, BUT...
Check out the Battle of Ia Drang. Note that the majority of cites come from a single source, just different pages. I know I could simply insert a bunch of ref/ibid. pp.43/ref, but then if the article gets edited you might end up with the ibid above the ref.
Is there any way we could automate this? IE, if the parser sees that a bunch of CITEs are the same, could it not use a more compact format?
Maury 19:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Well my biggest complaint with the cite system is that it's too much work, and it seems the last suggestion, while addressing the layout problem, dramatically increases the workload? Out of curiosity, what is that "note" template? One of my complaints about the engine is that sometimes I want to put footnotes into the article, but most people use REF tags for this. Is there a better way? Maury 14:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I laughed when I saw this edit, though it does raise a serious point:
It's a reliable source, but hard to cite. Any suggestions? Walkerma 16:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, or if the issue is already addressed by the existing templates; please point me in the right direction if so. It occurred to me that it would be useful to know where a given work is cited. If something is cited using one of the standard templates, is there any way to find all the articles that cite it? This could be of interest in a number of ways -- for example, replacing an unreliable source with a more reliable one -- as well as simply being an interesting fact about a source. E.g. I would like to know which articles cite Frank M. Stenton's "Anglo-Saxon England", because though it is a major reference, it is also quite old, and there are more recent references that could be cited that would have more recent information. Mike Christie (talk) 02:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Do they? Because if they do, a reference that pertains to the last sentence of a paragraph is indistinguishable from one that pertains to the entire paragraph. As it is now, it might be even in violation of WP:CSB I'd bet (the "ref after fullstop" format is not a global standard). Dysmorodrepanis 11:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know whether this question has been raised already. I have spent some time studying Wikipedia policy discussion pages looking for prior coverage of the point. The book (TBOGI) is a phenomenon & a bestseller, and its cover is an illustration in the above linked Wikipedia article. It covers a great many topics but does so very briefly and, by its style and nature, does not itself give references. So, although it presents a collection of purported facts about a wide range of general knowledge topics, assures us that the statements it makes have been researched carefully by the people at QI, and (judging from its sales) is clearly being widely read, it is perhaps not quite like any major encyclopedia in the degree of authority that can be ascribed to it. The important point, and the problem from the point of view of this query, is that it appears to make some claims that remain contentious without itself indicating which ones can be so regarded. To give just one small example, TBOGI says that Champagne (sparkling wine) was invented in England. The current Wikipedia article Champagne (wine) says the idea came from Russia, but using stronger bottles developed England. This might lead to these alternative consequences:
Iph 19:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
By the way I noticed at least one Wikipedian, called QI elf, who may perhaps (judging by the username) be connected with TBOGI. Iph 23:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
In general it is considered good practice to place all the references (e.g the source where one got the information from) between "ref" and "/ref". In this case all references ae shown at the bottom of the page in a section called "references" or "notes".
However, on the articles related to religions (e.g. Islam) many scholars cite verses from the religion's holy scriptures, or sayings of an important figure in that religion. Thus wikipedians, quite correctly, have begin to either add references to the Quran, or even provide the verse of the Quran.
My question is: should these references to the Quran be put in a "ref""/ref" markup? Please note that the citations to the Quran are actual links using a template.Thus a reference would look like this.
The Quran ([ Quran 1:151) teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.
Or the sentence could look like this:
The Quran teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents. [2]
One thing to be noted is that, often there are many verses in the Quran that are cited. Thus something could look like this.
The Quran ([ Quran 3:63, [ Quran 4:64, [ Quran 13:36, [ Quran 39:67, [ Quran 52:43, [ Quran 60:12, [ Quran 72:2 and [ Quran 72:20 ) commands Muslims not commit polytheism.
Putting the verses as references would make the sentece look like this.
The Quran commands Muslims not commit polytheism. [3]
What do you guys think? Bless sins 14:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to find English speaking sources to verify that German politican Heiner Geißler recently joined attac. There is an abundance of sources in German, but the only non-blog English source I could immediately find was this. The problem is that while that link seems ok to verify the assertion, the rest of it seems somewhat biased and not very journalistically neutral or professional. So my question is: Can I still use this link, simply to back up the fact that Geißler joined attac? I'm not sure, so I'm using reliable German speaking sources from Der Spiegel in the meantime. I'd be grateful for any advice. — Alde Baer 17:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the reference links to the website mirrormoon.org which distributes illegal fan translations for the games Tsukihime and Fate/stay night. Both of my edits were reverted, and I have removed them again. I have brought up the discussion on both of those articles' talk pages, referring them to Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking and to a discussion at Wikipedia talk:External links#Linking to illegal content. I have brought up the issue here since at WP:EL, it specifically says not to provide links (though web references DO in fact provide links) and at Tsukihime, User:Ganryuu reverted my change under the fact that the website was used as a reference, seen in this edit by him. I'm sure that referencing a site that distributes illegal content should be removed.-- 十 八 00:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
At least several pages still link to the old URL, [3], instead of the new one, [4]. The old one doesn't even give a redirect. A way of automatically locating and/or replacing them would be a really good idea. Thehotelambush 21:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I just added a bunch of detailed information to East African shilling#Coins in the form of tables. I'd like to reference my source, but am not sure how. This whole section is sourced from one book. I can use {{ cite book}}, but don't know how to indicate that the whole section (or perhaps one ref for each table?) is from the one book. Can anyone help me? Ingrid 00:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm using {{ cite book}}. I tried:
{{cite book|last=Krause|first=Chester L.|coauthors=Clifford Mishler; Colin R. Bruce II (senior editor)|title=SCWC|isbn=0873495934}}
which shows:
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)but I wonder if there's a better way to do it. The authors are Chester L. Krause and Clifford Mishler, with Colin R. Bruce II as the senior editor. If I put Bruce in a editor section, it puts "in " which doesn't make sense since all authors/editors relate to the whole book. Ingrid 21:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick replies (and to my previous question). Just to clarify, this book is a catalog, and in some editions, no authors are listed, just the editor. In the edition I used as the example, the two authors are also listed. I only mention it because in this case, the editor seems important. I don't need to use the cite book template, but I'd like it to look "right". Would putting "Edited by Editor" at the end manually make more sense, or should I just leave it as is? Is there some source I could check (I know there are many styles -- which is generally used by the cite templates)? Ingrid 22:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Thanks for pointing out the need for more details/fields. I did include them in the actual citation, but didn't bother here since I wanted to keep it shorter. I should've made that clear. Here's what the complete citation looks like now:
{{
cite book}}
: |author=
has generic name (
help); |edition=
has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)If I use the others field for the editor, it comes out like this:
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help)Does one look better than the other? The catalog has introductory text for each country, followed by pictures and tables of info about each coin produced in the country. I'm referencing info from the tables. I don't know if the authors or the editor are responsible for that, so my feeling is that they both should be mentioned. I'm also basing that on the fact that they're both mentioned on the front cover of the book. I know it probably doesn't really matter, but I'd like to be as correct as I can. I appreciate the time you've both taken considering this issue. Ingrid 01:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll keep this neutral as I am trying to avoid an edit war (or rather am giving up on one!). Say I have an article on Clothing and I have a overview of socks. Socks is an article in its own right. In summarising socks I clearly refer to this article and make some general comments about how socks are generally useful for keeping feet warm. My common sense view is that, as there is nothing contentious about such a statement, it does not need a citation. If people are uncertain about the warming properties of socks they would go to the sock page and read more. I have a personal view that there is too much enthusiasm for citing undisputed facts which interferes with legibility (the actual example uses the excuse of citation to delete material which in one opinion is irrelevant). Spenny 16:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a growing number of articles on books, that are suffering from lack of guidelines. Such articles often contain sections labeled "Cited in other sources", in which a list of works that cite the book are presented to readers. This poses a problem if no context is provided.
For example, lets assume an article on the book, Peter L. Berger's, Political Ethics and Social Change, Basic Books (1974), which is cited in Echoes from the Holocaust: Philosophical Reflections on a Dark Time:
To be accurate and NPOV, we need to provide the context of the citation, as follows:
and not
The latter version, is misleading as it describes the content of the book that cites the book rather than the context in which the book is cited, and implies that the Political Ethics and Social Change is about the Holocaust, which is not.
Any thoughts? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
Like journals, essays and reports, can articles be referenced with e.g. (Sugar, 1937)? Simply south 17:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I am sure I've seen somewhere a statement to the effect that lead paragraphs do not need to have embedded footnotes if the information is repeated in the body of the article and is properly referenced there. However, I can't find any such statement and it may have been in an FAC discussion, rather than in a guideline. If such as statement does exist in guideline, I'd appreciate a reference. I've seen a couple of "unreferenced" tags go on articles recently, just referring to the lead, and I don't feel that's appropriate but I'd like to find a policy statement (if one exists) to back me up. See James McCune Smith for an example; the editor who added the note used the edit summary "Intro needs them". Thanks -- Mike Christie (talk) 02:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
What if I want to cite an interview that I conducted, but do not have a transcript or recording, just a report on my findings? -- thedemonhog talk contributions 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
interviews are considered common knowledge, not requiring citing in MLA format because you could get it from anybody that even lives in the same city as the person. usually a person propagates information about himself, so therefore you could get the information from multiple people.
In WP:CITE#Citation templates it says "editors should not add templates without consensus", but what about the removal of templates? // Liftarn
A user without a userpage: User:Chestertouristcom, but with a talk page: User talk:Chestertouristcom, and who seems to have a very strong link with an external site: Chester Tourist External Site has added a lot, probably the bulk, of the material to Deva Victrix, which was originally under a different name, and before that, was a part of another article. This material is almost entirely unsourced and unreferenced. I tagged the article as being in need of references back in January 2007. Nothing was done, and the user continued to add a lot of unsourced and unreferenced material. I left a message on the user's talk page on 25th February 2007, asking for citations and references to be added, and this was followed up by an email to the user, but no response was received and new unreferenced material continued to be added up to the middle of March when it stopped.
The problem is, what to do? We are supposed to require entries to be adequately sourced and referenced, and yet hardly any of the material for Deva Victrix is. It will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to attempt to produce references for this material retrospectively when one isn't even the original author, especially so if one does not have a specialised knowledge of this topic. I have asked for assistance on the other wikiproject that has a template on the talk page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Archaeology but as yet received no response.
My feeling is that one could simply delete all the material, but I imagine this would cause some consternation in certain quarters (the removal of an external site whose inclusion had not been justified has already caused some negative comment about my action by another user.) The article would then probably be almost just a stub article with a lot of photos. Could I ask for some comments on what to do here? Many thanks. DDStretch (talk) 23:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Those editors using the book template seem to be routinely leaving out the page numbers in their footnotes. Also, if the citation is referred to numerous times, it would become difficult to follow the page numbers if they actually included it (imagine: 14; 20; 198; 30; 67; 90; 378). I suggest that either wikipedia discontinue the use of the book template since it encourages users to simply cite an entire book, not a specific page, or demand that they include a separate footnote for each citation that includes a page number. Such a policy should be made explicitly clear on [[WP:ATT] or WP:CITE. Awadewit 23:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It is worth remembering that page numbers can depend on edition, and although citation demands edition data, readers trying to follow up in any much-reissued book may find only a different edition and quite altered pagination. Thus page numbers are not always a complete answer to finding cited text. Iph 18:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
This issue has been discussed before, and it was decided that there is no need to change the titles to author-date. Google seems to show no or little preference, and the ArbCom has ruled that, in the absense of pressing reasons, there is no need to change terms more common in the UK than in the U.S., and vice versa.
The last time I checked this on Google, the searches returned:
SlimVirgin (talk) 01:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what this section means, so I've moved it here in the meantime. Can someone explain? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted the archiving of this talk page, otherwise what comes next looks untidy. If SlimVirgin now sees what the section on free sources was trying to achieve (possibly needing better phrasing, I agree), then to remove the section seems to have been premature. Likewise archiving off above recent threads is unhelpful to understanding the overall discussion on this (see section above Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Free_sources vs Wikipedia_talk:Cite_sources/archive15#Free_sources) - a thread with last posting just 1 week ago is too fresh to be archived off surely, especially when a whole article section is deleted 3 days prior ? David Ruben Talk 21:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there a convention on whether or not to include the relevant quotation from a source in the citation? ShadowHalo 04:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Am I right to suppose that Wikipedia must not contain references to illegal material (in terms of copyright)? There is a discussion whether the tv documentary posted on youtube could be a valid ref . Alaexis 11:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The current how to cite section describes 3 possible techniques, (embedded, harvard, footnotes), and then immediately describes the citation templates, a topic not required for any of these methods. The how to cite section should get new editors inserting some form of citation as quickly and painlessly as possible. Often editors seeking citation help have no idea how to use a template, and a lesson on templates should not divert their efforts to add citations. The correct location for citation template information is as a sub-heading under 'full citations', where they can be used in conjunction with any of the 3 methods. Editors capable of using the templates will find the citation templates after selecting embedded/harvard/footnotes as an option for full citations. My attempted move was reverted ( diff ), so I bring it up here for discussion. ∴ here… ♠ 06:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has been discussed previously: Is there a view that we must always make references visible? Articles with long references sections sometimes look ugly and a reader may be uninterested in browsing the references. I was imagining references and notes being placed inside a collapsible table with a hide/show button (defaulting to hide). Is there a view on this idea? — Moondyne 16:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
On the page that I have recently been maintaining titled "Pine Creek High School", many "(citation needed)" links have popped up. I am a student at Pine Creek, and I know for a fact that the things I say about my school are true. For example, the choirs that I have listed are from my own knowledge of the choirs that I am enrolled in, and I have verified these facts with the choral instructor. How do I get rid of these links? Why do I have to cite information that is my own? (12 April 2007) Live your life 17 01:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Once I came across an article with not a {{references}} or {{fact}} tag but a label saying an article with a list of general references needs more in-line citations. It wasn't aimed at specific information but a good general statement. This is good for long articles for which we have no idea how or which part of the general references (often books with no page no.s) were used. Does anyone know this label? Kind regards -- Merbabu 14:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the past the ue of <small> has always been discouraged; aside from anything else, it can cause problems for people with visual impairments as well as for those using small monitors. The main MoS on citations doesn't mention its use, but it's crept in to a great many articles, is part of citation templates, and appears on some MoS sub pages. Where would be the bext place to have its use discussed? -- Mel Etitis ( Talk) 15:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if this is in the wrong discussion section, if it is let me know where this needs to go.
Anyway: I know that this was already up for deletion, but I'm going to dedicate to myself to this one issue (look at how boring and single minded my profile is!):
The citation needed tags are useless. I can't say this enough. As an editor, there's something in an article you doubt, look it up. If you find something, cite the link, if you can't in good faith find anything to verify another user's claim, then delete it, obviously it doesn't belong there. People who are using them are essentially shrugging off work they're fully capable of doing. I feel strongly about wikipedia citing it's sources but a citation needed tag is just lazy.
Let's put this back up for deletion. -- Friendship hurricane 07:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Notice the current discussion about citation date consistency in Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Date formats in cite templates. ( SEWilco 02:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC))
How do you cite the same source multiple times without creating a duplicate footnote? Sr13 ( T| C) 08:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to modify the Mediawiki software to allow users to switch off article quality messages? I'm increasingly finding that my use of Wikipedia is being distracted by the citation needed messages and banners at the top of articles declaring they are disputed, not of neutral tone or of poor quality. While these notes are important for the editors and some readers, for much of my casual rather than formal use of Wikipedia, I don't need to know about disputes, any more than I need to read the talk pages, and their agressive nature is offputting Jrbray 13:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
sup.Template-Fact { display: none; }
It's interesting to see this point-of-view expressed. I wonder how many other casual readers are being put off my what some may see as an overabundance of "butt-covering"? 23skidoo 16:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it that, but it does tend to air dirty linen in public. What is most offputting is the blaring 'this article is poor quality, you must improve it' tone. The CSS suggestion works well, but I suspect there are too many tags, especially stub ones, for it to be truly effective. Wikipedians do need t be less strident to retain their popular support. Jrbray 04:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose changing the order of listed citation styles in Wikipedia:Citing_sources#How_to_cite_sources to:
Secondarily, I prefer a superscripted numeral
[1] or a (Harvard, 278) reference over a blue
arrow used as a textual elephant element.
To sum up:
Please discuss, or point me to prior discussion. -- Lexein 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
1. Can I make persistent private modifications to the Wiki Markup panel below the Edit window?
2. Is there an existing tool or bot which automates conversion of embedded links into cite web or cite news footnote stubs?
3. Where should I have posted these questions? -- Lexein 05:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"The use of citation templates is not required" is being quoted back to me as justification for adding a simple <ref> around a bare url as a substitution for the inline cite in new content. It looks like a mess in the References section.
I would change this text to: "Citations must be formatted to include relevant information such as title, author, date, publisher where relevant. The use of citation templates is a good practice to achieve a uniform appearance, but not required". patsw 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the wording on WP:FOOT to bring it into harmony with the wording on this page WP:CITE. patsw 23:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Moved to Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Request_for_consensus:_External_Links_.3D.3E_Incline_Citation_Bot per user CMummert. -- Paracit 21:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If I have a paragraph consisting of three consecutive sentences backed by the same source, should I put the reference at the end of every sentence? This seems like a good idea, since further editing could lead to the addition of facts not supported by my source but which may appear to be, if the source is cited only on the first or last sentence. I think this should be addressed on the project page. - Seans Potato Business 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If I want to cite something with the ref /ref tags and I want use the citation in two different places in the text for example
Statement 1.[1] Statement 2[2]. Statement 3. [1]
1. reference 1
2. reference 2
how would I do that? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
131.111.47.238 (
talk)
11:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
I tried to read this talk page but I am getting a headache so I'll just put my remarks here. The section Citation templates does say that some templates make articles "harder to edit" What it does not to say is that it also raises the bar on who can edit articles. How many would be editors give up when, after clicking on "edit this page" can not even find the text they want to edit? The first time I ran into it (tet offensive) I thought it might be deliberate to prevent editors with a different POV from editing. I am still not sure that is untrue. KAM 14:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Long in a private collection, the '''Thermopolis Specimen''' (WDC CSG 100) was discovered in Germany and described in 2005 by Mayr, Pohl, and Peters. Donated to the [[Wyoming Dinosaur Center]] in [[Thermopolis, Wyoming]], it has the best-preserved head and feet; most of the neck and the lower jaw have not been preserved. The "Thermopolis" specimen was described in the December 2, 2005 ''Science'' journal article as "A well-preserved ''Archaeopteryx'' specimen with theropod features", shows that the ''Archaeopteryx'' lacked a reversed toe—a universal feature of birds—limiting its ability to perch on branches and implying a terrestrial or trunk-climbing lifestyle.<ref>Mayr G, Pohl B & Peters DS. (2005). ''A well-preserved Archaeopteryx specimen with theropod features''. [[Science (journal)|Science]]. '''310'''(5753): 1483–1486. {{doi|10.1126/science.1120331}} [http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;310/5753/1483/DC1 See commentary on article]</ref> This has been interpreted as evidence of [[Theropoda|theropod]] ancestry. The specimen also has a hyperextendible second toe. "Until now, the feature was thought to belong only to the species' close relatives, the [[Deinonychosauria|deinonychosaurs]]."<ref name ="Natgeo2">[http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1201_051201_archaeopteryx_2.html National Geographic News- ''Earliest Bird Had Feet Like Dinosaur, Fossil Shows''] - Nicholas Bakalar, December 1, 2005, Page 2. Retreived 2006-10-18.</ref> This tenth and latest specimen was assigned to ''Archaeopteryx siemensii'' in 2007.<ref name ="10thfind">Mayr, G., Phol, B., Hartman, S. & Peters, D.S. (2007). ''The tenth skeletal specimen of Archaeopteryx''. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 149, 97–116.</ref> The specimen itself, currently on loan to the [[Senckenberg Museum|Forschungsinstitut Senckenberg]] in [[Frankfurt]], is considered the most complete and well preserved ''Archaeopteryx'' remains yet.<ref name ="10thfind">Mayr, G., Phol, B., Hartman, S. & Peters, D.S. (2007). ''The tenth skeletal specimen of Archaeopteryx''. Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 149, 97–116.</ref>
Hello. what is the preferred way to cite the content of a template? I read nesting the cite template inside another template is probably over my head so I am looking for a simple solution. I see three options for Template:MinneapolisPeople. We can do 1) references in 'noinclude' on the template page, or 2) references on the template talk page (to save some page load time/server load), or 3) write out the references and include them in the article itself. There might be other ways. #1 and #3 seem equivalent so just moving them to the article in a set of group 'ref's might be simplest. (This template text is off the article Minneapolis, Minnesota to discourage random additions to the list.) Thank you. - Susanlesch 20:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have noticed that assertions similar to this: "The Olympic Council of Asia has announced that Boracay will host the 2014 Asian Beach Games." are often tagged as needing supporting cites. It seems to me that there is an implied citation of the wikilinked pages is assertions similar to this example, but I see no guidance regarding this in this article. -- Boracay Bill 00:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The example above is from the Boracay article. You say that mentioning the wikilinked 2014 Asian Beach Games page in asserting that those games will be held on Boracay is insufficient, and that the guideline on this from WP:CITE (considered a standard that all users should follow) is that the outside source which supports that assertion being cited on the wikilinked 2014 Asian Beach Games page isn't sufficient to support the repetition of that assertion on the Boracay page without duplicating the supprting cite of an outside source as well.
It seems to me that this has profound implications throughout wikipedia. For just one example, think of all the pages which mention that the SCOTUS case Brown v. Board of Education resulted in the landmark ruling that the establishment of separate public schools for black and white students inherently unequal, while wikilinking to that article but without duplicating in the Reference section of each of those articles the cite to the outside source supporting that assertion which is present in the Reference section of the Brown v. Board of Education article.
Another example.. take an article like Status of religious freedom by country. That article lists (presently) 33 individual countries, and summarizes info relating to the subject of the article about each. In many cases, the article references a main article about a particular country, wikilinking that main article, and restates or summarizes info from that article without duplicate the supporting cites for each assertion repeated from those articles -- doing that would make for a very large References section.
There are lots and lots of articles out there which repeat assertions from other articles, mentioning and wikilinking the articles from which the repeated assertions are sourced without duplicating the supporting citations from the wikilinked articles from which the assertions are repeated. -- Boracay Bill 07:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have seen people apply this kind of reasoning on pages which are practically blue (like Internet).
The only solution for a page like that would be to recurse through the web of links and coalesce all the links on one page, eliminating duplicates. However, you would find that strict interpretation of this rule (which is both theoretically possible and is theoretically codable in a bot)... well, strict interpretation would leave every single reference ever made attached to that page (and to every other wiki-page).
That is obviously absurd, so that interpretation of the rule cannot be considered correct.
If you're not sure what I just said. Try to add references to Internet, by getting all the references from the subpages. No wait, don't actually do that... just think about what that would mean? The entire list of references would be longer than the article itself. This is a weaker argument than above, but still, you can see that can't quite be right, right?
A third approach is even simpler. If you need all the references on all the pages... then what was the entire point of wikilinks and different wikipages in the first place? They're there to keep blocks of information (and their associated references) separate and manageable.
Finally, as part of a good divide and conquer algorithm, people should defer references to the furthest-away (as counted by number of links to follow) linked page wherever possible. Refactor as appropriate!
-- Kim Bruning 13:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Ouw, on rereading I'm using really formal language here though. I typically try to sound more silly :-P Lemme scratch my head and translate to english sometime... or is it clear enough to most? -- Kim Bruning 12:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) A rule of thumb I've seen some people advocate is to provide references, not wikilinks, for all quotations, and facts that are likely to be challenged, unless the section indicates there is a main article on the topic (by using Template: Main. Within a section with a Main template, facts need only be wikilinked, not cited, if they are cited in the Main article, but quotations should be cited. This approach seems reasonable to me. -- Gerry Ashton 17:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I am in a small dispute over at Talk:Gospel of John. One editor added a sentence that an author held a specific position and cited a book that the author wrote. I asked the editor to please supply a page number with the citation, and my citation request tag has been repeated removed from the article. We have discussed things on talk, and the editor believes that because this page says page numbers are only required when quoting text, that there is no need for a page number. I say, if the author makes the claim that we say he makes in the article, there has to be a page (or pages) where the author makes the same claim in the book. How does it hurt the article or verifiability to simply add the pages numbers to the citations, right? However, the editors have still refused to supply a simply page number. So, is it unreasonable for me to request that they cite the page when the cite a book?- Andrew c 14:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the {{dubious}} tag (see Template_messages) should be mentioned in WP:CITE#Tagging_unsourced_material, as an "in between" action for unverified facts where the editor isn't sure if the statement is harmful, or for cases where the editor believes the statement is harmful if untrue but is not sure if the statement is true or not. The reason being you do not want to delete a statement that turns out to be true or one that turns out to be harmless. Davidwr 12:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I am editing National Anthem of Manchukuo. I got hold of the government registers for the defunct WWII-era country that is related to this article, and next to the document proclaiming the second anthem there is also an official interpretation of the anthem. Given that anthem was entirely new at that time that there would be no "folklore interpretation", should the official interpretation be considered primary or secondary source? -- Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK· CONTRIBS 15:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been having some disputes regarding IMDb profiles for movie articles. Some editors use them as references, but do not fully cite them. An editor has stated that there is no need to add a full citation, since there are no clear authors for the profiles. Is the editor correct? Or should I place refimprove tags on the articles and request that editors include full citations? Boricuaeddie Talk • Contribs • Spread the love! 23:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section belongs on this page. I think that the content of this section ought to be integrated with WP:GTL, and the info presented there, not here. It would probably be useful, though, to point up on this page that the WP:GTL page should be consulted for information about organizing and maintaining these sections.
I think that both the info now presented in this section and the info in the WP:GTL#Standard_appendices_and_descriptions section have problems. I don't have time to expand on that right now as I'm leaving on a trip within the hour. I will try to get back to that when I have more time to expand on it. One illustration of what I'm talking about, though, might be the recent edit to this section which added (in part) "A References section, which lists citations in alphabetical order, helps readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used." One problem I have with this is that the References section of most articles I've seen has been populated by the cite.php <ref>, </ref> and <References/> tags -- and this forces items into order-of-occurrence order. -- Boracay Bill 02:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I see in WP:GTL##Standard_appendices_and_descriptions
I see in the relevant section of this article
Few (if any) of the wikipedia articles I've seen seem to follow either of these sets of conventions. Most of the articles I've seen place cites of external sources in a section usually named References but sometimes named Notes, usually populated by cite.php tags, which places the cites, arranged arranged in order of appearance, in a numbered list with links and backlinks hooking refs and matching cites together with one another. Footnotes seem to be rare, I sometimes see them collected into a Notes or Footnotes section late in an article (e.g., British_Museum#Notes, Galaxy#Notes, Ethic of reciprocity#Footnotes, Nature#Notes, Plato#Notes, but I more often see them placed below tables (e.g., ASCII#ASCII_control_characters, Religion in India#Demographics, Kent#Economy, Planet#Dwarf_planets).
My point? (1) the guidance offered in this article and in WP:GTL seem to conflict. (2) As a practical matter, neither seems to reflect actual practice within wikipedia very well. I wonder how much practical help guidance in this area from either or both of these article is to editors. -- Boracay Bill 07:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Say an article were describing the plot of a work of fiction that's available online legally. Is it a good idea to cite the work itself when giving plot points? If so, do you need a separate reference for every single plot point?
I'm mainly asking because the list of reference links for Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater), an article about webcomic characters, seems to be getting unnecessarily and ridiculously long, although I'm sure there are many other examples for this phenomenon, especially in webcomic articles. -- R. Wolff 15:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The note about Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater) above brings up an issue. In most articles, having one citation for a sentence generally seems sufficient. If more citations are necessary, they are often combined into a single footnote. Only in highly contentious articles would multiple citations per clause seem justifiable, to me. Is this mentioned anywhere, and if not, would it be appropriate to have text here to the effect that multiple citations should generally be combined into one footnote, if possible? Gimmetrow 15:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I've seen many articles with long plot summaries but no references. Are plot summaries written by the authors of the articles considered original research? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Boricuaeddie ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
Common sense says that a plot summary about the book or movie this article is all about are sourced from the very book or movie. No further citation is needed. You should put the book or movie in the references section, in proper bibliographic format. This is one of those times when not using an explicit reference is not only forgivable but almost the norm. Now, if you are writing a plot summary for something other than what this article is about, then by all means cite properly. For example, if the article is about an author and you write a summary of one of his books, then cite it properly as you would anything else. davidwr 09f9( talk) 04:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The Full citations section is a little confusing to some editors (though to me it is clear). The text clearly states that page numbers are essential and that publisher info and ISBN are optional. However, the listed examples have both the publisher info and ISBN but no page numbers listed. Thus creating a discrepancy. I am currently in a small dispute with another editor at Talk:Gospel of John over including page numbers. I have requested that the editor include page numbers for specific inline citations, and there has been way too much drama over this one small thing.
For WP:CITE, would it make sense to add page numbers in the example citations listed under the "Full Ciations" section? Or have I grossly misunderstood the text portion of the guidelines (also, if interested, you are welcome to give a third opinion over the dispute at Talk:Gospel of John). Thanks for your consideration.- Andrew c 17:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Virtually every year article (e.g., just a random bunch of choices, 1763, 1451, 1128, 205 BC etc.) has no sourcing, some explicitly say they are based on what WP articles linked there (e.g., 455 BC). So the question is: are a few thousand articles the "occasional exception" noted in the guideline, or should the guideline either be modified to be more inclusive, or should all the content of virtually every year article be tagged with {{fact}} and after no one bothers to notice or repeat the sources in the linked articles then be deleted? Seems to me the guideline should yield to common sense, relying on editors at the various articles that link to 1763; however, without a leap of trust we won't know that when someone adds "George Bush is born" to 1693 that George Bush really links there, or the tag is added to 2000 and we don't know that even though there exists a link, that link has nothing to do with his birth. It is a series of the most linked articles at WP so if we believe people follow links, the issue is a common one with a high degree of noticeability particularly where vandalism, misinformation, or just unsourced stuff gets added to already unsourced articles. Carlossuarez46 02:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This page previously gave no hint that Template:Citation has additional linking functionality that makes it particularly suitable for Harvard referencing used with inline {{ Harvard citation}} templates, and effectively recommended {{ cite book}} and {{ cite journal}} which lack that functionality, but are a complete pain to change over if an article is "upgraded" to Harvard referencing. Having raised the problem at Wikipedia talk:Citation templates#Template:Harvard reference obsolete? I've boldly amended both articles to draw attention to this template as an option. ..... dave souza, talk 12:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
...apologies if I'm being dim-witted, but I'm a bit confused about something. I am currently reworking the article on Joseph Szigeti, who was a writer as well as a violinist so a lot of my references come from his own books. (His memoirs, and a book about violin playing as he understood it.) However, in one case, the reference I need is from the introduction to one of Sz.'s books, and the introduction was written by a friend of his, one Mr. Spike Hughes. So who do I attribute the reference to? I suspect I should use something like "Hughes, Spike; introduction to Szigeti on the Violin by Joseph Szigeti, Dover Publications, 1979", but could someone advise me on what best to do? Thanks, K. Lásztocska 03:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
~~My name is Anita Nehr. I am the subject's wife and was assigned to establish the Wikipedia listing for my husband and to set his history down. I placed a basic outline down and was going to go back and put things in more detail as I got more information from his family as most speak German and I have to translate. I find the site now "Locking me out". How to I gain exclusive access to complete this historical editing of his page and further updating as his political career progresses. this is my only contribution to him as my gift to him. Please help me to understand what it is I am doing wrong. Thank you in advance for your help. Anita
Anita, I see no indication that you have been locked out of Wikipedia. Your user name is Anitanehr and your account is not blocked. What do you mean that you are locked out? On the other hand, what do you mean by gaining "exclusive access"? No one has exclusive access to Wikipedia articles; everyone has equal access. Also, the fact that you are the subjects wife and were "assigned to establish the Wikipedia listing for [your] husband" suggests the potential for violating the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest policy. I am putting a copy of this exchange on your Talk page. Finell (Talk) 07:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I have access to Lexis-Nexis through my University account and I wanted to make sure that citations were ok. Normally I just add the citation as it appears in the L-N archive. So two questions: (1)Is it necessary to show that the info came via this online resource, and if so, (2)is there a template to show that I accessed it through L-N? (I normally use the 'citenews' template for references). R. Baley 09:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey, just something I've been thinking about as I peruse and edit etc... Doesn't it make sense for Wikipedia to just pick one reference style and use it uniformly? That way it can both be optimized (in terms of templates and such, for formatting/style consistency), as well as predictable. It just seems strange that an author can just pick whatever citation system s/he feels is best. I personally feel footnotes make the most sense, since they are automatically updated by a single tag in the article body, rather than the other two systems which require the maintenence of separate reference lists. Of course, reference lists can be useful for people looking to do further research, but is that enough to justify including those other formats? And isn't it ironic that the article on Wikipedia:Harvard_referencing uses footnotes? Yuletide 20:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
What is wikipedia's policy on citing sources that are not available on the web. Say for example citing a source from an old book with the ISBN or citing a journal. Short of taking a walk to the library there is no way to verify that the source actually exists or if it does is the information cited correctly. I see this quite frequently in many articles. Muntuwandi 22:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to ask for help regarding the proper way of citing the references section of this article: Unreferenced Section of Fly Fishing. Should a separate section be added (may be a 'Notes' section) so that those footnotes be separated from those references using the Harvard referencing method. Bu b0y2007 15:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I know this would be non-trivial, BUT...
Check out the Battle of Ia Drang. Note that the majority of cites come from a single source, just different pages. I know I could simply insert a bunch of ref/ibid. pp.43/ref, but then if the article gets edited you might end up with the ibid above the ref.
Is there any way we could automate this? IE, if the parser sees that a bunch of CITEs are the same, could it not use a more compact format?
Maury 19:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Well my biggest complaint with the cite system is that it's too much work, and it seems the last suggestion, while addressing the layout problem, dramatically increases the workload? Out of curiosity, what is that "note" template? One of my complaints about the engine is that sometimes I want to put footnotes into the article, but most people use REF tags for this. Is there a better way? Maury 14:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I laughed when I saw this edit, though it does raise a serious point:
It's a reliable source, but hard to cite. Any suggestions? Walkerma 16:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, or if the issue is already addressed by the existing templates; please point me in the right direction if so. It occurred to me that it would be useful to know where a given work is cited. If something is cited using one of the standard templates, is there any way to find all the articles that cite it? This could be of interest in a number of ways -- for example, replacing an unreliable source with a more reliable one -- as well as simply being an interesting fact about a source. E.g. I would like to know which articles cite Frank M. Stenton's "Anglo-Saxon England", because though it is a major reference, it is also quite old, and there are more recent references that could be cited that would have more recent information. Mike Christie (talk) 02:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Do they? Because if they do, a reference that pertains to the last sentence of a paragraph is indistinguishable from one that pertains to the entire paragraph. As it is now, it might be even in violation of WP:CSB I'd bet (the "ref after fullstop" format is not a global standard). Dysmorodrepanis 11:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't know whether this question has been raised already. I have spent some time studying Wikipedia policy discussion pages looking for prior coverage of the point. The book (TBOGI) is a phenomenon & a bestseller, and its cover is an illustration in the above linked Wikipedia article. It covers a great many topics but does so very briefly and, by its style and nature, does not itself give references. So, although it presents a collection of purported facts about a wide range of general knowledge topics, assures us that the statements it makes have been researched carefully by the people at QI, and (judging from its sales) is clearly being widely read, it is perhaps not quite like any major encyclopedia in the degree of authority that can be ascribed to it. The important point, and the problem from the point of view of this query, is that it appears to make some claims that remain contentious without itself indicating which ones can be so regarded. To give just one small example, TBOGI says that Champagne (sparkling wine) was invented in England. The current Wikipedia article Champagne (wine) says the idea came from Russia, but using stronger bottles developed England. This might lead to these alternative consequences:
Iph 19:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
By the way I noticed at least one Wikipedian, called QI elf, who may perhaps (judging by the username) be connected with TBOGI. Iph 23:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)iph
In general it is considered good practice to place all the references (e.g the source where one got the information from) between "ref" and "/ref". In this case all references ae shown at the bottom of the page in a section called "references" or "notes".
However, on the articles related to religions (e.g. Islam) many scholars cite verses from the religion's holy scriptures, or sayings of an important figure in that religion. Thus wikipedians, quite correctly, have begin to either add references to the Quran, or even provide the verse of the Quran.
My question is: should these references to the Quran be put in a "ref""/ref" markup? Please note that the citations to the Quran are actual links using a template.Thus a reference would look like this.
The Quran ([ Quran 1:151) teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.
Or the sentence could look like this:
The Quran teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents. [2]
One thing to be noted is that, often there are many verses in the Quran that are cited. Thus something could look like this.
The Quran ([ Quran 3:63, [ Quran 4:64, [ Quran 13:36, [ Quran 39:67, [ Quran 52:43, [ Quran 60:12, [ Quran 72:2 and [ Quran 72:20 ) commands Muslims not commit polytheism.
Putting the verses as references would make the sentece look like this.
The Quran commands Muslims not commit polytheism. [3]
What do you guys think? Bless sins 14:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to find English speaking sources to verify that German politican Heiner Geißler recently joined attac. There is an abundance of sources in German, but the only non-blog English source I could immediately find was this. The problem is that while that link seems ok to verify the assertion, the rest of it seems somewhat biased and not very journalistically neutral or professional. So my question is: Can I still use this link, simply to back up the fact that Geißler joined attac? I'm not sure, so I'm using reliable German speaking sources from Der Spiegel in the meantime. I'd be grateful for any advice. — Alde Baer 17:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the reference links to the website mirrormoon.org which distributes illegal fan translations for the games Tsukihime and Fate/stay night. Both of my edits were reverted, and I have removed them again. I have brought up the discussion on both of those articles' talk pages, referring them to Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking and to a discussion at Wikipedia talk:External links#Linking to illegal content. I have brought up the issue here since at WP:EL, it specifically says not to provide links (though web references DO in fact provide links) and at Tsukihime, User:Ganryuu reverted my change under the fact that the website was used as a reference, seen in this edit by him. I'm sure that referencing a site that distributes illegal content should be removed.-- 十 八 00:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
At least several pages still link to the old URL, [3], instead of the new one, [4]. The old one doesn't even give a redirect. A way of automatically locating and/or replacing them would be a really good idea. Thehotelambush 21:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I just added a bunch of detailed information to East African shilling#Coins in the form of tables. I'd like to reference my source, but am not sure how. This whole section is sourced from one book. I can use {{ cite book}}, but don't know how to indicate that the whole section (or perhaps one ref for each table?) is from the one book. Can anyone help me? Ingrid 00:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm using {{ cite book}}. I tried:
{{cite book|last=Krause|first=Chester L.|coauthors=Clifford Mishler; Colin R. Bruce II (senior editor)|title=SCWC|isbn=0873495934}}
which shows:
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)but I wonder if there's a better way to do it. The authors are Chester L. Krause and Clifford Mishler, with Colin R. Bruce II as the senior editor. If I put Bruce in a editor section, it puts "in " which doesn't make sense since all authors/editors relate to the whole book. Ingrid 21:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick replies (and to my previous question). Just to clarify, this book is a catalog, and in some editions, no authors are listed, just the editor. In the edition I used as the example, the two authors are also listed. I only mention it because in this case, the editor seems important. I don't need to use the cite book template, but I'd like it to look "right". Would putting "Edited by Editor" at the end manually make more sense, or should I just leave it as is? Is there some source I could check (I know there are many styles -- which is generally used by the cite templates)? Ingrid 22:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Thanks for pointing out the need for more details/fields. I did include them in the actual citation, but didn't bother here since I wanted to keep it shorter. I should've made that clear. Here's what the complete citation looks like now:
{{
cite book}}
: |author=
has generic name (
help); |edition=
has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)If I use the others field for the editor, it comes out like this:
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help)Does one look better than the other? The catalog has introductory text for each country, followed by pictures and tables of info about each coin produced in the country. I'm referencing info from the tables. I don't know if the authors or the editor are responsible for that, so my feeling is that they both should be mentioned. I'm also basing that on the fact that they're both mentioned on the front cover of the book. I know it probably doesn't really matter, but I'd like to be as correct as I can. I appreciate the time you've both taken considering this issue. Ingrid 01:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll keep this neutral as I am trying to avoid an edit war (or rather am giving up on one!). Say I have an article on Clothing and I have a overview of socks. Socks is an article in its own right. In summarising socks I clearly refer to this article and make some general comments about how socks are generally useful for keeping feet warm. My common sense view is that, as there is nothing contentious about such a statement, it does not need a citation. If people are uncertain about the warming properties of socks they would go to the sock page and read more. I have a personal view that there is too much enthusiasm for citing undisputed facts which interferes with legibility (the actual example uses the excuse of citation to delete material which in one opinion is irrelevant). Spenny 16:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a growing number of articles on books, that are suffering from lack of guidelines. Such articles often contain sections labeled "Cited in other sources", in which a list of works that cite the book are presented to readers. This poses a problem if no context is provided.
For example, lets assume an article on the book, Peter L. Berger's, Political Ethics and Social Change, Basic Books (1974), which is cited in Echoes from the Holocaust: Philosophical Reflections on a Dark Time:
To be accurate and NPOV, we need to provide the context of the citation, as follows:
and not
The latter version, is misleading as it describes the content of the book that cites the book rather than the context in which the book is cited, and implies that the Political Ethics and Social Change is about the Holocaust, which is not.
Any thoughts? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)