This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This duplicates archived discussion found in Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 21 and Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 22 |
Collapsing for navigation; discussion follows in next section | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Recently a lengthly discussion on the BLP Board came to no strong consensus accept to point that possibly our policies should be more clear. The case discussed was using the names of the octuplet babies when there seemingly was no encyclopedic value yet the names had been widely published. The following comment in the discussion, IMHO, summed up a possible next step:
I'm wondering if there is any interest in changing anything to help guide editing? Personally I feel Wikipedia can convey the same information, that they exist, without publishing their names. Unless a compelling case is made that including these names adds significant value to our readers' understanding or the omission would compromise the article, we should leave the information out and strive to maintain the subject's privacy. Any thoughts and suggestions on what if anything should change? -- Banjeboi 03:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Your thoughts on the following proposed revision to " Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of names are welcome: Original text
Proposed revision
— Cheers, JackLee – talk– 07:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I have the following comments about the latest version of the proposed guideline:
Something else to think about: should the names of living persons be omitted under this proposed guideline if any one or all three of the criteria are satisfied? At the moment it's "and/or", so (a) or (b) or (c), or (a) and (b) and (c), or any combination thereof. I'm inclined to leave it as "and/or". — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 03:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
|
I propose the following revision:
Revision 3 (amended on 23 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption in favor of leaving out the names of such individuals where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right [this requires further explanation];
- they are
indirectlynot directly involved in the article's topic; and/or- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
The view I expressed above was that if the person has been widely named in reliable secondary and tertiary sources, then it is reasonable to assume that the person is notable in his or her own right. I have to say I'm not altogether comfortable with this, but on the other hand trying to create a guideline along the lines of "even though this person is in all the newspapers she isn't notable in her own right" seems to be fruitless and a recipe for heated arguments on talk pages going nowhere. Thoughts?
— Cheers, JackLee – talk– 08:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I have a few points to make.
1) I'm not sure of the utility of the "and" in the "and/or." It seems to me that "or" says it well.
2) Should there be an "and" or an "or" after the first item, too?
3) I'm not clear about the wording of the second clause. It says "they are indirectly involved in the article's topic..." Are we trying to say "they are not directly involved in the article's topic..."? If so, that's how it should be worded. To say the are "indirectly involved" says they're involved. To say they are "not directly involved" says the opposite.
4) I don't care if the parents have failed to protect the children's privacy. That shouldn't mean it's okay for us to treat the kids the same way. Obviously, for someone like Miley Cyrus, there's no point in concealing her name, but in the case of the kids of, say Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, I see no reason to include the name of their child. Wikipedia shouldn't be an arm of their PR agent. People who want to know can read People Magazine.
5) While I'm on the subject, I also don't care if the tabloids are filled with articles about, say, the kids drinking or doing drugs. If that makes them notable, then I must be notable, too. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 08:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Here's a phrase I think could be reworded just to make it less clumsy. Instead of saying "There is a stronger presumption in favor of leaving out the names...", maybe we should say "There is a stronger presumption against using the names..." — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 03:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Original text:
Take particular care when considering whether inclusion of the names of private, living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger. In all cases where the redaction of names is considered, discuss the issue on the article's talk page.
Proposed revision:
Revision 4 (amended on 24 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right [this requires further explanation]; or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- Any others?
(Examples proposed on 24 April 2009)
- Example
- People Magazine' reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three year old daughter named Booboo, which is swedish for happy surprise. In spite of the entertainment value of the meaning of the name, this does not make the child notable, and her name (and its meaning) don't belong in the article. The child's name in a celebrity magazine or tabloid are Self promotion or Scandal mongering and do not make the child notable.
- Example
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his fifteen year old son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation, the arrest is not notable, and the son's privacy should still be protected.
- Example
- Following his son's arrest, Actor John Doe publicly recanted his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest is now notable and may be included, although use of the son's name is still questionable, even if it has been widely reported in the news media.
Revision 5 (last amended on 24 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his 15-year-old son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
I'm rethinking one aspect of my examples. The last two use a minor child where they may not need to. By making the son 15 years old, we are implying that if he were an adult, the use of his name would be acceptable, which isn't really true. While I want to emphasize that children should especially be protected, I also want to make it clear that adults names often shouldn't be used. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 19:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I decided that this might be clearer with an addition to "What What Wikipedia is not." So feel free to check out the last section of the discussion page of What Wikipedia is not, where I propose a new section called "Wikipedia is not a publicist's tool. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 00:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I am relisting for further discussion the following proposed change to the wording of the "Privacy of names" section. I was under the impression that consensus on the change had been reached following discussions that took place on the talk page between 27 March and 3 May 2009 (see " Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 21#Refining policy regarding use of children's/minors' names"), but Jclemens thought not and reverted my edit. Further comments are welcome. — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 04:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his adult son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
The following proposed change to the wording of the "Privacy of names" section still hasn't received a full discussion after being auto-archived, so I am relisting it again. Please do comment on it. — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 14:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his adult son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This duplicates archived discussion found in Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 21 and Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 22 |
Collapsing for navigation; discussion follows in next section | |||
---|---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Recently a lengthly discussion on the BLP Board came to no strong consensus accept to point that possibly our policies should be more clear. The case discussed was using the names of the octuplet babies when there seemingly was no encyclopedic value yet the names had been widely published. The following comment in the discussion, IMHO, summed up a possible next step:
I'm wondering if there is any interest in changing anything to help guide editing? Personally I feel Wikipedia can convey the same information, that they exist, without publishing their names. Unless a compelling case is made that including these names adds significant value to our readers' understanding or the omission would compromise the article, we should leave the information out and strive to maintain the subject's privacy. Any thoughts and suggestions on what if anything should change? -- Banjeboi 03:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Your thoughts on the following proposed revision to " Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of names are welcome: Original text
Proposed revision
— Cheers, JackLee – talk– 07:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I have the following comments about the latest version of the proposed guideline:
Something else to think about: should the names of living persons be omitted under this proposed guideline if any one or all three of the criteria are satisfied? At the moment it's "and/or", so (a) or (b) or (c), or (a) and (b) and (c), or any combination thereof. I'm inclined to leave it as "and/or". — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 03:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
|
I propose the following revision:
Revision 3 (amended on 23 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption in favor of leaving out the names of such individuals where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right [this requires further explanation];
- they are
indirectlynot directly involved in the article's topic; and/or- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
The view I expressed above was that if the person has been widely named in reliable secondary and tertiary sources, then it is reasonable to assume that the person is notable in his or her own right. I have to say I'm not altogether comfortable with this, but on the other hand trying to create a guideline along the lines of "even though this person is in all the newspapers she isn't notable in her own right" seems to be fruitless and a recipe for heated arguments on talk pages going nowhere. Thoughts?
— Cheers, JackLee – talk– 08:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I have a few points to make.
1) I'm not sure of the utility of the "and" in the "and/or." It seems to me that "or" says it well.
2) Should there be an "and" or an "or" after the first item, too?
3) I'm not clear about the wording of the second clause. It says "they are indirectly involved in the article's topic..." Are we trying to say "they are not directly involved in the article's topic..."? If so, that's how it should be worded. To say the are "indirectly involved" says they're involved. To say they are "not directly involved" says the opposite.
4) I don't care if the parents have failed to protect the children's privacy. That shouldn't mean it's okay for us to treat the kids the same way. Obviously, for someone like Miley Cyrus, there's no point in concealing her name, but in the case of the kids of, say Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, I see no reason to include the name of their child. Wikipedia shouldn't be an arm of their PR agent. People who want to know can read People Magazine.
5) While I'm on the subject, I also don't care if the tabloids are filled with articles about, say, the kids drinking or doing drugs. If that makes them notable, then I must be notable, too. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 08:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Here's a phrase I think could be reworded just to make it less clumsy. Instead of saying "There is a stronger presumption in favor of leaving out the names...", maybe we should say "There is a stronger presumption against using the names..." — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 03:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Original text:
Take particular care when considering whether inclusion of the names of private, living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger. In all cases where the redaction of names is considered, discuss the issue on the article's talk page.
Proposed revision:
Revision 4 (amended on 24 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right [this requires further explanation]; or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- Any others?
(Examples proposed on 24 April 2009)
- Example
- People Magazine' reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three year old daughter named Booboo, which is swedish for happy surprise. In spite of the entertainment value of the meaning of the name, this does not make the child notable, and her name (and its meaning) don't belong in the article. The child's name in a celebrity magazine or tabloid are Self promotion or Scandal mongering and do not make the child notable.
- Example
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his fifteen year old son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation, the arrest is not notable, and the son's privacy should still be protected.
- Example
- Following his son's arrest, Actor John Doe publicly recanted his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest is now notable and may be included, although use of the son's name is still questionable, even if it has been widely reported in the news media.
Revision 5 (last amended on 24 April 2009)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his 15-year-old son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
I'm rethinking one aspect of my examples. The last two use a minor child where they may not need to. By making the son 15 years old, we are implying that if he were an adult, the use of his name would be acceptable, which isn't really true. While I want to emphasize that children should especially be protected, I also want to make it clear that adults names often shouldn't be used. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 19:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I decided that this might be clearer with an addition to "What What Wikipedia is not." So feel free to check out the last section of the discussion page of What Wikipedia is not, where I propose a new section called "Wikipedia is not a publicist's tool. — MiguelMunoz ( talk) 00:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I am relisting for further discussion the following proposed change to the wording of the "Privacy of names" section. I was under the impression that consensus on the change had been reached following discussions that took place on the talk page between 27 March and 3 May 2009 (see " Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 21#Refining policy regarding use of children's/minors' names"), but Jclemens thought not and reverted my edit. Further comments are welcome. — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 04:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his adult son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.
The following proposed change to the wording of the "Privacy of names" section still hasn't received a full discussion after being auto-archived, so I am relisting it again. Please do comment on it. — Cheers, JackLee – talk– 14:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Consider carefully whether significant value is added to an article by including the names of private, living individuals such as family members of the subject of a biographical article. There is a stronger presumption against using the names of such individuals, even if the names have already appeared in the media, where:
- they are not relatively notable in their own right; for instance, because:
- they are only named in third-party published sources because they are related to or associated with notable individuals;
- they are only named in a few third-party published sources;
- although they are widely named in third-party published sources, such sources only have trivial content on them (e.g., minor accidents, criminal offences and public outbursts); or
- they are not directly involved in the article's topic; or
- they are under the age of 18 years, and thus deserve greater protection from intrusions upon their privacy.
Examples
- Gossip Magazine has reported that actor John Doe and his wife Jane have a three-year-old daughter named Booboo Happy Flower. In spite of the entertainment value of the name, this does not make the child notable in her own right. She is only in the media because she is related to Doe and for the novelty of her name. The fact that her name has appeared in one or more celebrity magazines, newspapers or websites may be an instance of self-promotion or scandal-mongering, and does not make her notable. Thus, her name does not belong in an article on John Doe.
- Actor John Doe has lent his name to a campaign for tough criminal sentences for heroin addicts. Newspapers have reported that his adult son was arrested for possession of heroin. In spite of the irony of the public allegation the son is not notable in his own right, and his privacy should still be protected.
- Following the arrest of John Doe's son, Doe publicly recants his previous stand and now promotes treatment for heroin addicts. The son's arrest may now be included in the article about John Doe, although his name should still not be mentioned, even if it has been widely reported in the media, as he has still not become notable in his own right.
In all cases where names are redacted, editors are encouraged to explain why this has been done on the article's talk page.