This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Avoid using meta-templates page. |
|
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
This project page was nominated for deletion on 1 February 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
Netoholic and Thebainer want to have the sentence "One of the most common reasons meta-templates are created is to add functions that mimic conditional expressions". I disagree with having this sentence in his guideline and I don't see why we need a section for conditionals at all. This might have been true before we had m:Parserfunctions. But nobody needs metatemplates for conditional logic anymore, so WP:AUM doesn't have to do anything anymore with conditional logic. How are metatemplates needed to implement conditionals? Could you show me where metatemplates are needed or used for conditional logic, let alone as "most common reasons"? -- Ligulem 15:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Netoholic reinserted "Meta-template schemes are sometimes created using many layers of nested templates to mimic conditional expressions". Again, this is not correct. Meta-templates are no longer used to mimic conditional logic. I have thus reverted to the version which Thebainer agreed on. -- Ligulem 07:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
In general, I agree with this wording. Although I do think "Conditionals should generally be avoided, unless there is a significant advantage in their use" is a bit dense. But as long as "Generally avoided" is not misrepresented as "do not use {{#if:...}} at all cost", I can live with that wording. Common practice is that even the "few template gurus" don't insert #if's if they are not needed. -- Ligulem 08:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus support is not present. Consensus need not be fully opposed; if consensus is neutral on the issue and unlikely to improve, the proposal is likewise rejected. Making small changes will not change this fact, nor will repetitive arguments. Generally it is wiser to rewrite a rejected proposal from scratch and start in a different direction.
This page and its fundamental concept have been rejected over and over. Neto is the only one trying to revive this. The content you want to add is fine, but not policy material. It belongs on an informative page like Wikipedia:Template namespace; not here. — Omegatron 00:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe there are a few pages that were edited in anticipation of WP:AUM. Some (probably not all) of these pages may warrant reverting. Are there any guidelines, or priorities or concensous was to what to revert first? I am of the mind to simply do the ones I know about.
Sumburgh 08:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why not make a workshop page, or a new proposal along similar lines? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 03:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Ugh. Do you ever feel like you're the needle running over a broken record? Edit warring, disputed page protections, blocks, et cetera. We've all been here before and we all know how it turns out... badly for Wikipedia. Can we please not fight this war again?
Netoholic, you are not wrong that some templates are set up less efficiently than they could be. We should indeed encourage people to use different methods where appropriate. However, this page is not needed to do that. There is nothing preventing direct contact with people involved in various templates that could be re-designed. No, you can't then point at a page and say, 'all the reasons why this must be done are there'... but that's a good thing. It forces us to examine the individual needs of the template and the people using it and work with them to come up with a replacement they are comfortable with. So that we are the 'good guys' not just in terms of improving templates for Wikipedia as a whole, but also to the individual users impacted.
Why not work on improving the templates collaboratively... rather than fighting to enshrine a framework which can serve no purpose but to over-ride collaboration with 'established practice'? -- CBD 13:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
autoptr<>
saga raged forever. In my view, this page is not the right forum to achieve its purpose: advocating a judicious use of complexity for the betterment of the community as a whole. Far more useful would be a page or collection of pages concerning Recommendations on avoiding unnecessary complexity in general, with portions applied to templates, and meta-templates, in particular; and from there, as others have suggested, work with people to adopt this material to their specific situation so far as it makes sense.The text alone from United States is 500 KB of meta-templated goodness, not counting javascript, stylesheets and of course images. I clocked five various diffs (with "time wget" from the shell) at between 43 and 48(!) seconds just now. The second try of each was about 5 seconds. When a particular version of an article with enough meta-templates in it gets bumped from the caches, you wait. And wait. I disbelieve the developers when they say nested transclusion isn't a performance penalty. That depends on having an effectively much larger cache than we do now. 1of3 03:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Avoid using meta-templates page. |
|
Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
This project page was nominated for deletion on 1 February 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
Netoholic and Thebainer want to have the sentence "One of the most common reasons meta-templates are created is to add functions that mimic conditional expressions". I disagree with having this sentence in his guideline and I don't see why we need a section for conditionals at all. This might have been true before we had m:Parserfunctions. But nobody needs metatemplates for conditional logic anymore, so WP:AUM doesn't have to do anything anymore with conditional logic. How are metatemplates needed to implement conditionals? Could you show me where metatemplates are needed or used for conditional logic, let alone as "most common reasons"? -- Ligulem 15:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Netoholic reinserted "Meta-template schemes are sometimes created using many layers of nested templates to mimic conditional expressions". Again, this is not correct. Meta-templates are no longer used to mimic conditional logic. I have thus reverted to the version which Thebainer agreed on. -- Ligulem 07:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
In general, I agree with this wording. Although I do think "Conditionals should generally be avoided, unless there is a significant advantage in their use" is a bit dense. But as long as "Generally avoided" is not misrepresented as "do not use {{#if:...}} at all cost", I can live with that wording. Common practice is that even the "few template gurus" don't insert #if's if they are not needed. -- Ligulem 08:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus support is not present. Consensus need not be fully opposed; if consensus is neutral on the issue and unlikely to improve, the proposal is likewise rejected. Making small changes will not change this fact, nor will repetitive arguments. Generally it is wiser to rewrite a rejected proposal from scratch and start in a different direction.
This page and its fundamental concept have been rejected over and over. Neto is the only one trying to revive this. The content you want to add is fine, but not policy material. It belongs on an informative page like Wikipedia:Template namespace; not here. — Omegatron 00:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe there are a few pages that were edited in anticipation of WP:AUM. Some (probably not all) of these pages may warrant reverting. Are there any guidelines, or priorities or concensous was to what to revert first? I am of the mind to simply do the ones I know about.
Sumburgh 08:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why not make a workshop page, or a new proposal along similar lines? - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 03:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Ugh. Do you ever feel like you're the needle running over a broken record? Edit warring, disputed page protections, blocks, et cetera. We've all been here before and we all know how it turns out... badly for Wikipedia. Can we please not fight this war again?
Netoholic, you are not wrong that some templates are set up less efficiently than they could be. We should indeed encourage people to use different methods where appropriate. However, this page is not needed to do that. There is nothing preventing direct contact with people involved in various templates that could be re-designed. No, you can't then point at a page and say, 'all the reasons why this must be done are there'... but that's a good thing. It forces us to examine the individual needs of the template and the people using it and work with them to come up with a replacement they are comfortable with. So that we are the 'good guys' not just in terms of improving templates for Wikipedia as a whole, but also to the individual users impacted.
Why not work on improving the templates collaboratively... rather than fighting to enshrine a framework which can serve no purpose but to over-ride collaboration with 'established practice'? -- CBD 13:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
autoptr<>
saga raged forever. In my view, this page is not the right forum to achieve its purpose: advocating a judicious use of complexity for the betterment of the community as a whole. Far more useful would be a page or collection of pages concerning Recommendations on avoiding unnecessary complexity in general, with portions applied to templates, and meta-templates, in particular; and from there, as others have suggested, work with people to adopt this material to their specific situation so far as it makes sense.The text alone from United States is 500 KB of meta-templated goodness, not counting javascript, stylesheets and of course images. I clocked five various diffs (with "time wget" from the shell) at between 43 and 48(!) seconds just now. The second try of each was about 5 seconds. When a particular version of an article with enough meta-templates in it gets bumped from the caches, you wait. And wait. I disbelieve the developers when they say nested transclusion isn't a performance penalty. That depends on having an effectively much larger cache than we do now. 1of3 03:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)