The one thing I was going to do before the time this disaster was scheduled to get off the ground was to make a subpage with suggested questions and link to it. I thought I had two days to do that before the consensus to start no earlier than 00:00 2 April.
I won't bother to assemble it (it would be non-trivial work) if it's going to revwerted by the revert warriors among us. Well? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Something's really uncooked here... this can't be the result of weeks of collaborating.. maybe people who've been working on this have spent to much time only focusing on it, because I don't think the outside editor is getting the full story. This is an absurd joke of a poll, and it seems to have been opened now only out of frustration. -- Ned Scott 02:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Ned: You are reverting 20 editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
We can restore their comments later, but we should halt the poll at this point. Why the hell were we taking our time with the poll and this discussion in the first place if only a hand full of editors just up and decide to throw that out the window? -- Ned Scott 03:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone explain what is going on, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Jossi has a point. This page, which I regret to say I created, has probably wasted two whole hours of my life. I could've written five or six missing Nigeria-geo-stubs in that time. Oh well, I'm out. Of the watchlist it goes. Picaroon 04:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Where was the consensus to wait, SMcC? I only saw people saying either let's go ahead, or let's not have a poll at all (with my own preference the latter). SlimVirgin (talk) 05:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Opening of this poll came as a complete surprise, but wording is not bad. Leaving out the questions is probably the best compromise solution. -- Vision Thing -- 10:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone restart this, and please put up the proper watchlist notification that was agreed upon so that everyone knows the poll is going? But *BEFORE* that happens can someone please refactor the responses into the "Sections" format? Having an editing free for all in one section will have edit conflicts out the butt later. - Denny 04:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Given the recent reverting about whether or not the poll is open, I added {{Warning|<big>'''Whether or not this poll is open yet is disputed. If you vote, your vote might be archived.'''</big>}} to the top of the page. I think editors who are voting have a right to know that their vote might not count if the poll is cancelled. I do not mean to express an opinion about whether or not the poll is or should be open right now. However, I think people should know. I therefore request that the tag be restored until the issue is clearly resolved. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 04:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Would someone please change "How to participate in this poll" in the header to be a level 2 section heading instead of just bold, so it shows up in the TOC? CMummert · talk 04:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a stray horizontal rule at the bottom of the /header. Please delete. And unprotect. No one is editwarring over the intro, which has been stable for a week, and it's unbelievably silly that I have to come make an editprotected just to fix a typo. <grumble> — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Amarkov moo! has objected to the Neutral/qualified/compromise section header. How would people rather it be sectioned? — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't change another person's comments by recontexting them as for example by putting them in new sections or relabeling sections. We are here to get people to contribute their opinions. Recontexting their opinions constitutes fighting about the nature and definition of the consensus that we are trying to guage and is counterproductive to an honest effort to seek consensus. Leave the structue of this structured discussion alone. Let people say what they will without spinning things. Please. Please? WAS 4.250 05:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How can something attempting to be factual be so incredibly biased? Anyway, we're directing users who don't know about this to a page filled with "Yay for WP:ATT!", which might have a little teeny (read HUGE) effect on the results. - Amarkov moo! 05:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I am going to point out that I agree that this poll is biased, per the original poster. tiny effects indeed. —— Eagle101 Need help? 19:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} OLD:
NEW:
The community discussion is an order of magnitude more important than either of the two essays. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm troubled by the number of editors stating, to quote one, "I do not support putting attributability above truth". I have to assume that they think the WP:V policy is different from WP:ATT in this regard—but of course, it's not.
Please examine the policies in greater detail to ensure that, if you oppose WP:ATT based on its content, the same content does not also exist in the predecessor policies. – Outriggr § 07:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Such comments do not trouble me at all. When this discussion is closed, such comments will not be used to decide if V and NOR are merged as they do not address that issue. But they will be used to illuminate efforts to improve the wording of our suite of policies. Such comments make it clear that WP:ATT is unclear with regard to "true" or "truth". WAS 4.250 23:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
As I watch ATT go down in flames, it makes me think about the real problem. A wiki is a wonderful invention, but it doesn't lend itself to consenus driven policy changes. The notice at the top of the watchlist is the best attempt I've seen at finding a way to deal with changes that effects 10's of thousands of users. We need to devolop a system that scales. If 1000's of user could have participated in creating ATT, there might be 1000's of supports. The solution may be software related, in which case we need to come up with something we can do in the meantime. - Peregrine Fisher 07:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
For major site wide/major policy matters/critical issue stuff we should just always use watchlist in the future. No harm in that. -
Denny 07:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How do you close a poll in which 500 users are in broad support and 500 users in broad oppose? What is consensus in this case? No consensus for the merge, and no consensus to undo the merge. Where is Solomon when we need him? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Remember too that the internet is quietest on the Weekend. When everyone gets to work at 8am Monday Eastern (since--correct me if wrong--most WP editors are North American?) time the poll will go bananas for days. - Denny 17:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Blue Tie 02:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo's objection to the merger originally was that it was done without enough publicity, correct? The consensus principle here has always held that people who don't talk are choosing to abide by the decisions made by those that do talk, because anything else would be impossible and require we notify every single user. But this has now been challenged by Jimbo, who is claiming that more must be done to publicize these things before we can claim to have assent from all the passive users. As an attempt to satisfy his wishes, we have now begun the use of watchlist announcements for policy changes. This has been both criticized as annoying and praised, but if one thing is for sure, it's that it has been highly effective in getting a large numeric turnout.
I believe that regardless of the outcome of this poll and discussion, the discovery that watchlist messages work may have a more transformative change on future policy working than the WP:A merger ever would have.
What if in the future we notify everyone via watchlist for 2 weeks/a month (timeframe negotiable) whenever there is a major change proposed. We wouldn't have to do this for every single WP:VPR thread, of course, but once something has been hammered out to the working draft level at least, if it was a proposal that could have a real effect on the community, we would add it to the message. The message could come in the form of a show/hide box which hides by default, but which when expanded gives a brief overview of all the current major discussions, and maybe include links to RfA and the like if there was nothing major going on at the time. I believe people would get used to the box rather quickly, but to deal with the inevitable annoyance complaints it could be designed to be unobtrusive, and we could give clear directions on how to opt out using your monobook on the help page for the watchlist message feature.
If we adopted this, we could then avoid messy confirmation polls because everyone had been quite clearly informed of the discussion and those who didn't speak had quite clearly chosen not to do so. Would it be an increase in bureaucracy? Yes, it would. But a much smaller increase than that which will be required if we end up having to run these damned polls every time someone wants to change something. -- tjstrf talk 08:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
We are not lacking a weekly pay attention to me device. Signpost. WAS 4.250 11:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
One general comment - the level of notification ought to be in proportion to the level of the change. If you are suggesting a minor change to a policy of limited interest, that's one thing, but this is a major change to Wikipedia's fundamental content policies. I don't consider myself to be uninvolved, but the first I heard of it was in the last week or two before it went live and the merger was already said to be a done deal. -- BigDT 13:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Would someone else like to take on the job of moving User:Slrubenstein's responses from the poll to the discussion page? There are one or two other users who have left responses, as well. CMummert · talk 15:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
--- Begin amended comment
--- End of amended comment
Rednblu, why do you keep calling me "honorable?" Slrubenstein | Talk 09:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
My !vote, and I believe a half-dozen others, support some merge, but not a merge to WP:ATT. This is a particular position, which should not be muted. Move people out again, if warranted, but don't give it a vague title. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
I think adding or changing category names while the poll is ongoing is corrupting the poll process and its results. It is totally unacceptable. Crum375 15:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
SMcCandlish may ask you for something? Let go,nothing more to fo around here until the end poll. There are articles to edits, vandals to bet stopped, and many other useful things. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like this poll will not end with a clear endorsement of the merger. Unless many of the oppose votes are discounted based on their clear misunderstandings of the issues (e.g., all the people who think "verifiability=truth"), we'll be back at square one, more or less. And ironically, those confused oppose votes are exactly the target audience in some respect. I think it is especially important to at least do something to reform the problematic title and language of "verifiability".-- ragesoss 16:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an issue for those who compile the results and make their recommendaions to Jimbo. If it were up to me (and thankfully it isn't) I would start off by giving a straight count...
Then break break the results down further listing the more common comments...
Etc. Etc. Etc. - it will be time consuming... but will let Jimbo (and the community at large) fully see where the consensus is or isn't.
It will be up to Jimbo to decide if he wants to discount the "Truth" votes or not. Blueboar 16:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Right now, we have a "Support some merger, but not this one" subsection and a "Compromise/Neutral" subsection, with "other" apparently having gone poof! If we are going to break this up rather than lumping it all together, as it was originally, we should do it all the way, and have four subsections. However, since moving votes around can be a controversial issue, I suggest just adding new sections and encouraging people to move their votes into the new sections rather than the old lumped together ones. To make this more transitional, all should be subsections of the original lumped section, Neutral/qualified/compromise/other. Thanks, Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 17:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It is going fine. No need to fiddle with it. Le's leave it alone and let editors make their opinion known. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
A couple of editors seem to continue to comment on other persons' comments; in particular commenting on the "truth-vreifiability" issue in people's oppose votes. Is the warning about not starting a discussion on the poll page not strong enough? Could such "comments on the comments" be refactored out? It is not helpful to have the poll cluttered with such comments, nor is it appropriate for some editors to start such discussions on the poll page (there are plenty of other pages where that discussion in happenning). -- Pastordavid 18:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Refactoring note: Many or all of these comments were originally placed as replies to votes on the poll page, and were moved here. To see a version of the page before the moving started, see here. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 21:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
List of removals from the poll page (add to this if something is missing): [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]
I strongly oppose ATT, because it denigrates factuality and accuracy (i.e. truth). Attribution is very important, but not more important than accuracy. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 02:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
oppose Hopelessly naive, I can cite all kinds of controversial or even false things to generally 'reliable sources'. Truth matters, not just attribution. Verification and original research are not synonyms. [13] Derex 05:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose WP:V and WP:NOR are different things. Verifiability is merely that something can be verified...it has little if anything to do with NOR.-- MONGO 06:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose - Disgusted that attribution is seen as more important than truth. This needs to be remedied before any other changes are made. michael talk 06:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The existing policies were working, even though there were arguments. This is a huge policy change, not a combination of existing policies. For example, the "unpublished synthesis of published material" section is new policy, not in WP:RS. This "Attribution" page suddenly become policy, just from commentary on its own talk page, which is wierd. -- John Nagle 15:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the proposed merging of pages, because I believe it's important to keep policy pages separate, in order to prevent the creation of one excessively large (and thus probably ignored) page. I believe it is best to keep the policies on their own separate pages. Philippe 01:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the concept of merging the articles, but I do not support putting attributability above truth. False content should not be included just because it is attributable. Jwolfe 05:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment The comments by Slrubenstein replying directly to certain posts/editors above appear intimidatory and seem intended to force consensus by dumping on and hence discouraging less articulate editors from contributing their real concerns on these issues. I obviously dont want to strike them as I'm only a user myself and a fairly new one at that, but I think that in an open community poll someone replying with boilerplate text to a heap of posts should be taken into hand. Nothing against what has been said (although i disagree with it) but more the way in which it has been done. Just my thoughts. DanielT5 18:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
No on WP:ATT. No on any merger idea at this time. Verifiability, ReliableSource, and No personal research are very independent components of high quality Wikipedia pages such as gravity and truth. That is, without a standard for "Verifiability" that is far higher than what mere Attributability requires, editors could not trim the gravity and truth pages to follow faithfully just the facts, not the mere attributions, as established by ReliableSources. Similarly, without a standard for "Verifiability" that is far higher than mere "Attributability," editors cannot trim pages on living persons to exclude fully attributable personal attacks that are baseless, false, and unfair. In the following, the honorable User:Slrubenstein poses the question before us quite succinctly.
Wiki being an introspective beast, I'm wondering if there's a known record for the number of sigs on any one question? This page will inevitably slow down after the first twenty-four, but it could easily go over a thousand after a week. Have we had a thousand comments on anything previously? Just an idle thought... Marskell 20:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading a long time ago about a congressman who said that he had been careful to vote on bills in accordance with his district's wishes until he read a very emotional letter from a constituant pleading with him to not vote for daylight saving time because her flowers in her garden were not getting enough sun as it was. There is something to be said for representational democracy rather than mob rule. WAS 4.250 00:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the refactoring. Can someone explain what has been done, please? It really would be best if we would just leave the page alone, and allow people to comment freely. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
What I think we need to do now is decide how we're going to close this poll. Given that it took us 14 days to choose the wording, and we only have seven days to decide how to close it, we'd do well to get going. :-)
There was a suggestion when the Brandt article was up for deletion the last time that we form a committee to close it. I wonder whether we should do that here. I would suggest five experienced admins: two who may be in favor of the merge; two against; and one who is neutral. They hold a discussion on a designated page, which others can see but can't edit. They reach a decision, and ask Jimbo to ratify it if people think that's necessary. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
When it closes on 4/6/07 00:00, we need to put a note up that says, "Poll is closed. ANY changes or edits to this page will be reverted," and then fully protect the page. Once 4/6/07 00:00 passes there is no need for a single person (including Jimbo) to be editing the poll. The only exception I could see would be if Jimbo himself asked us to reopen/extend the length. Nothing else. Any nonsense or political editing games after that need to be ruthlessly rv'd out to not mess with the community. - Denny 17:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Beside Jimbo, I imagine many, many editors will very actively and justifiably object to any one person determining concensus. Whomever does it, it needs to be multiple people. How about a couple admins, a couple crats, a couple regulars, and then Jimbo determines concensus based on THEIR findings? That is fair. Filtered. No one gets to decide this alone. - Denny 20:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Just throwing a wild idea out (can't hurt, right?): since Jimbo will obviously have the final word, he'll obviously be the final judge - but how about letting the ArbCom make the final recommendation? (I forgot to mention: having interested parties be part of the panel is a very bad idea - they're very likely to have been deeply involved here, and there's a reason we have rules advising strongly against that in XfD's.) Xiner ( talk, a promise) 20:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I can see some votes from users that have just a dozen or so edits in less than 7 days. Not sure how to assess these, if they should be marked as such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what we do with them anymore. -- Kim Bruning 01:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
V-man voted as a reply to Jersyko--since he voted as a reply, it was moved here:
I, liked Armedblowfish, support Wikipedia:Attribution being kept as a summary with a status like WP:5P, but I do not have Armedblowfish's qualms about including WP:RS in the summary. Thus, I think WP:ATT should summarize WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS but I'm unconvinced that it should replace any or all of them. · j e r s y k o talk · 05:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm with Jersyko on that. WP:ATT can be used for general reference on the broad policies regarding attribution, while it will still be useful in the future to be able to refer to the individual WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:V. Even a brief mention of WP:CITE would keep it in context. Having this system will keep Wikipedia organized and familiar in the same style for those who are navigating WP:PAG for the first time. V-Man - T/ C 05:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
V-man, while he may have stylized this as a comment is in fact providing his opinions here for this poll and he doesn't do it anywhere else.
Kasreyn for example who voted and replied to
Philippe's. She provided a comment when she replied to Philippe and a simple vote elsewhere and went back and added more to her vote when she saw here comment was moved, but at least she'd voted.
User:V-Man737 voted on the page earlier, saying, "I oppose opposition to this poll".
He commented less than an hour later on the actual subject of the matter, ATT, and because his comment was indented per replying, wheras his previous comment was per voting, it was considered a comment and not a vote and therefore it was moved.
This is a poll trying to get opinions from the community. V-man provided an opinion and because it was formatted differently, it was removed. He provided an opinion on the poll itself, and because it was formatted properly, it wasn't removed even though that comment probably didn't belong there.
I've moved his comment/vote/whatever you want to call it about ATT and what should happen to it back, and placed it directly after Jersyko's vote--I'm changing no content, just indenting it with a # instead of a :.
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 10:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
At this time, it looks like the community is closely divided over the merger. I imagine it will be a while before we sort out what this vote means, and how it will inform ongoing discussions about policy. Right now I want to call attention to a problem that this poll has highlighted, regardless of views about ATT. Rednblu, EdFitzgerald, Derex, Michael, terence, and JWolfe have justified their votes by insisting on the overriding importance of "truth." Of all the people who are voting this is a tiny minority which is why I say this problem is separate from the debate over ATT. But I find it very frightening for two reasons: first, the principle that representing different views - and the claim that the existence of such views is objective, and theirfore attributable or verifiable (meaning, one can find objective evidence that someone holds this view, e.g. a source) and not the "truth" is the concern of WIkipedia and the standard of inclusion of material in an article has been, in one form or another, the core principle of Wikipedia since its founding, and it has long been explained in different core policies. The fact that some active editors completely discount this principle is dangerous because the only things that hold together this incredibly heterogeneous and quasi-anarchic community is our agreement to work within these core policies. Second, this principle is enshrined in two longstanding policies independent of ATT: NPOV (our oldest policy) and Verifiability (which is several years old). To reject or question this principle is not to question ATT, it is to reject V and NPOV. It is disingenuous and dangerous to use a poll over ATT to reject V and NPOV. I ask fellow Wikipedians to take this problem seriously not because these views are shared by a large group of people - they are not, at least, based on this poll most people have other concerns that motivate their vote. Rather, it is a serious problem because it really gets to the very core of Wikipedia content policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
To argue that "truth" should be the principle governing inclusion in Wikipedia articles implicitly but necessarily involves a rejection of VPOV and V (even if the meaning of V has changed over the years, it certainly was never changed to contradict the dictum, verifiability not truth, nor to contradict our NPOV policy). Whatever other discussion is going on, comments made on the poll page indicate that some people either do reject NPOV (by elevating "truth") or fundamentally misunderstand it - I leave it to others do decide which is more frightening! Slrubenstein | Talk 12:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It might be useful (pragmatic) to deal with wikipedia policy wording concerning "true" or "truth" as a semantic issue rather than as an opportunity to debate epistemology. WAS 4.250 20:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If commenting on the poll page is discouraged, we should probably have a defined section for doing this on the talk page. So I'm starting one here. JulesH 11:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
141 I Oppose the replacement of No Original Research" and "Verifiability" by a single policy of "Attribution" if you want to keep your Attribution page, keep it, but don't crop the three into one lone page.--The Joke 11:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The percentages of support and oppose are pretty close. What percentage does this need to pass? 90%? 75%? 51%? I have a sick feeling that it's all going to stalemate into no consensus. The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 19:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Guys, we're being premature. It's the weekend. Wait till a LOT more people see this on Monday/Tuesday. I expect many people edit from work, and will see the header, and swarm here to change things more in some direction. - Denny 20:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This simply means that there is no consensus. There is no such a thing as a status quo as we do in AfDs. What this means is that the community is divided and bridges need to be created. That will be left to the closing committee and Jimbo to decide. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We have a WP:100 either way. That's no consensus, and that's that. That means you can close it as no consensus anytime today, you can close it no consensus tomorrow, or you can wait 'till the end of the week and close it no consensus then. The numbers are already sufficiently in, and the conclusion is that there is no (longer(!) any) consensus (whatsoever).
This is the most solid "no consensus" in the history of wikipedia.
It's also quite easy to tell you why we got this result. But that's for later, when we do post-mortem.
-- Kim Bruning 01:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC) Remember that for there to be a consensus, there must be no opposition. For rough consensus we can sometimes drop a couple of opinions, so that we can get on with things. But at over 100 opposes, the opposition is considerable enough that anyone would conclude that consensus is absent. We also have over 100 supports, so there is also no consensus to terminate att. So the outcome is Pure No Consensus.
Recommendation for a closing committee? Five admins, five non-admins. Anyone who played a major or vocal role in developing this poll *or* ATT need not apply. Myself, Jossi, Marskell, Slim, Jayjg, WAS, El C, etc. need not or be allowed to apply. Jimbo acts on their recommendations. All work they do: in public, here, subpage. Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll/Closing- Denny 20:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
No, no, NOT a poll. Just ten new people interpret THIS result from the active poll. Jimbo decides based on the ten. - Denny 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo doesn't need a committee of ten to make up his mind for him.
Nor, unless things change drastically, does anyone else. As of now, the |vote is 215-174-47. At least a dozen of 47 oppose merger, another dozen disendorse WP:ATT. Unless the bare yes/no ratio becomes more than 2:1, there will be little need even to discuss it: There is no WP:Consensus for this merger, so it should not happen; there is no wide agreement on WP:ATT, so it is not policy, whatever tags are on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
What role would the closing committee have? Just post "Closed, no consensus" at the top of the page at the end of your 7-day run or what have you. -- Kim Bruning 01:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I strongly oppose any move to flag or discount the views of users with low edit counts as has been suggested at several different points on this page. It's been mentioned above as a way of somehow tallying the results. I disagree with this on 3 principles and hope that others will see sense in my logic and offer thier support;
1. A user may have a low edit count because they, like me, submit artwork. It can take 20+ hours to draw artwork/maps etc. and only two edits (one to upload it and one to place it on a page) to actually add it to the pedia. Many of us could potentially lose our views to spellcheckers and vandalism reverters with high edit counts simply because their line of work involves heavier edit counts. Consider this as an example, a cartographer (map designer) could spend an average of 10 hours on a map. They may have only 50 edits (2 per map). That would mean they have contributed 250 hours of work to the pedia, yet their views would be flagged up to be taken with a pinch of salt. Also please consider people who do their work in a text editors and upload it in one go, they may only have 50 edits but if those 50 edits each equal one featured article their view hardly deserves to be flagged up as effectively 'inconsequential'.
2. Secondly this isn't a vote, its an opinion poll. Wikipedia isn't a bueracracy and if 499 people say merge but 500 say don't merge (as I expect is probably going to be the case one way or the other) the outcome is not going to be so straightforward and clear as to simply tally up the results, so to flag some peoples views would be senseless and a waste of time, because this isn't a voting process and enough experienced editors on either side of the river are going to add their opinions to make a consensus of opinion one way or the other apparent or (more likely) not apparent.
3. As with any WP opinion poll, everyone is entitled to an opinion. In an RfA non-admins can 'vote' for example, as they may have valuable points to add despite not being an admin themselves. It is especially poignagnt as the people most likely to encounter WP:ATT or WP:NOR, WP:V etc. are new editors, and so if they have an opinion on this new policy merge it should be heard just as loud as anyone else.
Thanks for considering this. I hope you will join my in stopping low edit counts being flagged. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
In defense of WikipedianProlific, unless the Support vs. Oppose numbers are horribly skewed one way, or there are a lot of new accounts, is this really necessary. I mean, go ahead, I suppose, but what a waste of time. Olin 22:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC) And, is that changing the rules mid-stream? Olin 22:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't matter anymore, and WP:BITEs the newbies besides. So no need! :-) -- Kim Bruning 01:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If you wanted discussion, what teh hot hell are we having a vote for? Grace Note 05:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to rush. There are still 4 days to go. Let the poll continue unencumbered. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The poll was a announced widely and that includes the closing date of April 6. No going back from that. Leave it alone till then and let's go back to editing articles, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Support arguments | Oppose arguments |
---|---|
Sourcing is one issue | V, OR, (RS) are separate issues |
There is no change in policy | There is change in policy |
One page is easier to understand | ATT encompasses too much ("cumbersome") |
It's better for newcomers | It's better to cite one page or the other |
Stuff about RS here. | |
KISS; we have too many policies | One page is easier to ignore |
All three aspects are important | |
Process was ignored (voting is evil) | |
These policies have been successfully separate for a long time | |
Attribution vs. truth | |
Neutral point of View and No Original Research are better names than Atrribution; merely citing them makes the point. |
(Disclaimer: I did not look at ALL the comments; only the first hundred on each side. Also, I make no claim of being a neutral party; I'm just trying to make sense of the whole conversation. If your argument isn't listed up here I didn't see it or considered it part of a larger argument (a few opposes based on ATT being less understandable I consider part of the "cumbersome" argument). If I'm wrong, trout me)
I'm actually a little surprised at it. Nifboy 05:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The biggest positive is that "attributability" is actually the criterion we use, not "verifiability". We are not aiming at the truth but at beliefs about what the truth is. At an absolute minimum, WP:Verifiability needs rephrasing and renaming. Grace Note 06:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
One of my biggest beefs isn't in the chart: in addition to the argument over whether policy changed, we have the issue of perception of a policy change. In spite of the crafters' intent, attributable but not attributed can be misinterpreted by "experts" and others who want to avoid citing content. Further, I'm kinda glad the poll is still running, as I'm still learning from comments, such as the person who posted this blog entry, which sorta/kinda expresses similar concerns to mine. My most serious reservations are in the emphasis on the wording of attributable but not attributed over verifiable, because it can be misinterpreted. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that a closing committee can determine the outcome of this, it's officially for Jimbo to decide, since basically he was the one who wanted this poll. But, I would like to see a breakdown. The votes have to be gone through anyway, people commented in more than one place, etc, but I'd really like to know some things about the votes and opinions--how many people voting each way had had any prior involvement in the project for example.
Unlike other users here, I don't particularly think that # of edits is, or # of recent edits, or # of recent article edits is a relevant qualifier or tells anything about the results, but I do think that other things are relevant when reading the results--not to discount votes, but to understand them. I'd like to see stats of the results in terms of how many users had made any contribution to ATT, or the other policy articles in question, or if they had major involvement with the creation of ATT, or whether they're an admin--these are just off the top of my head, but could create a list of relevant qualifiers, of things you'd want to know in terms of reading these statistics, and this closing comittee could go through, and look at the votes and provide these stats, and give us other helpful information, like what the biggest issues were.
This was supposed to be a poll to find out how the general wiki community felt. For example, if the majority of the users for or against the poll had a major involvement with the article, that tells us something. If the number one thing users who voted against ATT mentioned was that they didn't like the poll, or thought there was no consensus in the article, then we know that they might be voting based on emotions and haven't really looked at the articles. In that case, an ATT proposal might fare much better down the line when everyone on both sides could agree that their was consensus and users weren't scared away from editing etc. If they mention things that they like or don't like specifically--then we have an idea of what to do. A lot of users proposed ideas, or made suggestions about where to go from here. Maybe there's some sort of consensus in that, or at least something for good talk page discussion to get moving forward.
Just tagging the poll with the results and being done with it is foolish. There's a wealth of data there that hundreds of wiki users have gone to the trouble of providing, and given the enormous amount of time spent trying to get this article up as policy, and the time just spent trying to get this poll off the ground, it would be not only foolish to not take advantage of it, it would be a serious waste of everyone's time. What's the point in the community providing opinions if this is being treated like a raise-your-hands-and -tally vote?
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 06:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
ref:
#Talk of flagging users with low edit counts
"New editors rarely, if ever, have a good understanding of policy, and so are unable to comment on it in a meaningful way.
Are you kidding
Jayjg? I sometimes wonder why we have policies like
WP:BITE when I see any new user who manages to find their way to AIN crucified instantly--they must be something suspcious, how could they know?
A new editor, makes a mistake, or gets a welcome message on their talk page and so they are pointed to WP:V, or WP:NOR and they find out about this poll. You think that new editors aren't capable of spending hours reading the old policy pages and the new policy pages and the poll page and voting? You think that they aren't capable of realizing that if this is one of the first things that they are pointed to, and it could be changed, they might want to pay attention? Or maybe, they became Wikipedians because they were outright curious. The click click disease. How are they any different from us? We came first, we came earlier and have some claim that they do not? You can't judge an opinion on it's merit anyway, it's an opinion. Why aren't we clammoring to throw out the opinions from the people who clearly didn't read the policies-who admitted as such, or who disregarded major things? Because we would have to drawn the line somewhere and we have no place to draw it, except at the cold hard facts of when a user created an account and how many edits they have. Even though you can see nothing of a user from those facts.
We're commenting right and left about how such and such is or isn't easier for newbies to understand. Why don't we listen to them instead? Oh, because they can't possibly have a good understand of policy or comment on it in a meaningful way. If that's true, then the whole arguement about what is and isn't easier for newbies to understand is bull, because by definition, newbies can't understand, and they can't even comment meaningfully of what they do or don't understand.
This poll needs newbies, because these are the policy pages we send newbies to. We send them to NOR and V and RS, and some editors have started sending them to ATT. During the time that this poll was and is going on, new users have been sent to these pages in droves and will continue to be. The more involved ones will end up here. We should be welcomming them, asking them, begging them for their opinions, instead of once again disregarding them as the lower class of Wikipedia. We cannot claim that these pages are for newbies, and be unwilling to listen to them. If we do, then these pages are not really for newbies, but for us, so that we can lecture and prescribe and prosthelytize without caring whether or not they understand or agree.
Also, this poll never says that users must have had a certain number of edits before the opening of the poll, or must be a -------- old. No requirements were placed beforehand, which means that discounting these opinions, especially since this is an OPINION POLL and NOT A VOTE, seems to me to be a serious violation of WP:BITE. New accounts that seem suspect in some other manner should be looked at in re various puppetries, but if they are not suspect for some other clearly definable reason, then punishing these accounts (for showing up here) in any way, including by ignoring their opinions here would be at least a violation of WP:BITE. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 08:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(copy)
Anyone who started an account after the poll started should have their comment flagged. End of story. It doesn't mean we need to ignore their comment; it's basic common sense. I removed two comments from the support section last night and started a SOCK report. I only noticed because they were red-linked. All the comments need to be checked. Marskell 08:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"Grounds for Suspicion" does not justify taking it upon yourself to unilaterally edit out other people's comments. You are corrupting the process, in the middle of a highly contentious dispute. zadignose 10:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Generally, "flagging" the comments of new users, considering them of less value, discounting them, and especially editing them out are clearly against the spirit of Wikipedia, and seem to ignore that the purpose of a poll is to guage opinion. Saying "end of story" isn't a great justification for sabotaging a poll by aggressive edits and biased assertions. zadignose 10:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Please, noone remove people's comments. If you feel inclined to do so, then a block until the poll closes may be in order. --
bainer (
talk) 12:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Guys, only thing that should be removed are comments threaded. We can flag new accounts... but nothing should be removed. Just change the *'s to #'s, tag ultra new accounts that snuck past the sprotection, and thats it. Oh, and use the unsigned template for those like I just did. - Denny 13:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There's also the issue of "sleeper accounts". I'm certain I saw an Oppose last night from an account that had six edits back in November, and then about 50 edits since the poll was announced. Hard to know how to interpret those, considering AGF. I thought it was red-linked at the time, but it may have changed, so I doubt I can find it again. Anyway, since the "poll" isn't a "vote" or "tally", I suppose it doesn't much matter; the comments have been instructive. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I caught this and then fixed it over the next 3 edits. I really, really hope no one missed anything like this along the way... should the closers (multiple) audit afterwards? :( - Denny 16:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Starting this simply for the 'interesting' factor, for those curious to watch this as it unfolds and see how many people actually contribute each day and how. Whens the last time this many people saw/got directed to one thing on Wikipedia to contribute? Ever? Basing this on the diff/version of the FIRST edit after that day's 00:00 UST passes by. - Denny 16:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Day | aggregate total | daily increase | total users | percentages at close incl neutral/qualified/compromise/other | percentages at close excl neutral/qualified/compromise/other | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Saturday ( 3/30 to 4/1) | 138 / 121 / 32 | +138 +121 +32 / +291 | 291 | 47.4% / 41.6% / 11.0% | 53.3% / 46.7% |
2 | Sunday ( 4/1 to 4/2) | 224 / 174 / 49 | +86 +53 +17 / +156 | 447 | 50.1% / 38.9% / 11.0% | 56.3% / 43.7% |
3 | Monday ( 4/2 to 4/3) | 281 / 219 / 60 | +57 +45 +11 / +113 | 560 | 50.2% / 39.1% / 10.7% | 56.2% / 43.8% |
4 | Tuesday ( 4/3 to 4/4) | 330 / 262 / 71 | +49 +43 +11 / +102 | 663 | 49.8% / 39.5% / 10.7% | 55.7% / 44.3% |
5 | Wednesday ( 4/4 to 4/5) | 356 / 298 / 83 | +26 +36 +12 / +74 | 737 | 48.3% / 40.4% / 11.3% | 54.4% / 45.6% |
6 | Thursday ( 4/5 to 4/6) | 391 / 329 / 89 | +35 +31 +6 / +72 | 809 | 48.3% / 40.7% / 11.0% | 54.3% / 45.7% |
7 | Friday (final survey 'stats') |
Actually, the fascinating thing is, unless one "group" gets a sudden consciousness, statistically speaking, it shouldn't change much, by the central limit theorem. Olin
As for votes/polls that got a lot of input, see WP:200. The Main Page redesign vote had nearly 1000 participants, I believe, and some of the Wikipedia elections have had even larger numbers, and Wikimedia elections (involving editors in projects worldwide) have had even larger numbers. One day someone will write all this down properly... I'm rather shell-shocked to realise that I forgot all about this poll, and only rediscovered it when I stumbled across the MfD. Must pay more attention! Carcharoth 22:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Just FYI, my posting this is no bearing on much of anything. It was just a barely scientific idea to look at how (the biggest ever?) poll here unfolds a bit. - Denny 23:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Refactoring note: I changed the headings to say "neutral/qualified/compromise/other", as in the poll, rather than "neutral". [16] — Armed Blowfish ( mail) 04:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC), 04:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we sub-section the headings at each 100 for ease of editing? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
hmmm ... someone just sub-sectioned the neutrals, and it worked. But I think subs at 50 is too clunky. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
And here with have a classic case of the problem with Wikipedia. There's no need for this policy clarification to even be discussed: combining these mutually overlapping policies into one clear statement should have been done years ago. There is no credible argument against it. But because Wikipedia has no competent editorial oversight, you get the hoi polloi all clamoring to be heard and tossing in their opinion just because they can. It's absurd. -- BBlackmoor (talk) • 2007-04-02 22:13Z
The real problem with Wikipedia is that minority views on how to write an encyclopedia can get a traction if not kept in check. Agreed. Although it might not really be such real problem now, but it will stifle future development. I am convinced that such minority views already have traction (especially with regard to “notability”). I would blame confusion on the excessive number of creepy policies/guidelines. There are too many. But cutting back on the core policies is the wrong thing to do. I would like to cut any rescriptive policy/guideline that even seems to conflict with WP:5P. SmokeyJoe 01:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
derstood OR is. A lot of people are working with a simplistic view that leaves open all sorts of scope for OR by synthesis. Somehow we need to make clearer that the idea is not to present your own theory or narrative, even if you leave it implicit rather than joining the dots, and even if you cite all the facts on which it is based. You have to find someone who has actually joined the dots, say how they've done it, and cite that. Metamagician3000 02:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a theory (that anyone who knows anything about real-world polls can back) that the +/- order of the poll is skewing the results. If I'm right, then inverting the order in the poll of the Support/Oppose sections for the less-than-half of the poll remaining is only fair. If I'm wrong, then doing that inversion will have no effect whatsoever. I find it surprising that I'm being reverted on that minor twiddle, since reverting appears to imply that one supports bias in the poll, or that one is reflexively reverting simply to resist changes. I find that puzzling. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 08:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Changing the order of the choices after the poll has started is simply bizarre. I've never seen that done anywhere. Even apart from the idea of changing, I've never seen a poll that had "no" before "yes". Think of the RfA votes, for example. ElinorD (talk) 13:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
There was a reason at the end of the discussion I was heck-bent to make the poll/survey just be, "Hey, what do YOU think?" with each person adding one new self-contained section with the new section function, and no one but that person being allowed to edit in each user's little box for the 7 days. ;) Who actually added the support/oppose/etc breakdown after launch? - Denny 13:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Keeping support section first whole time is biasing poll. It suggests that voters are expected to vote for support in largest numbers, and for neutral (last option) in smallest. -- Vision Thing -- 21:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What's the purpose of this exercise?
Ok, well, We've eliminated the impossible, So whatever remains must be the truth.
But before we start drawing premature conclusions, does anyone have a possible reasonable explanation that's missing from the above?
-- Kim Bruning 12:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What about that page? It is presently listed as a "proposal", but depending on the outcome of this poll it probably isn't. >Radiant< 11:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
When polling, it's customary to give half the polling population the questionaire with one option first and half with the other option first just in case that difference is not negligible. Believe it or not, people will vote based on order of questions.
Yes, this is an opinion poll, but not everyone who comes here will go and read all of the policies in question and both statements. Some users may rely on looking at other users votes--like looking at a talk page. When you get to the page, what you see in what order certainly affects your opinion--users have been commenting in reply or support or opposition of other users opinions and we know that they aren't reading all of the votes on the page. What a user sees has some effect. Whether it has any effect numerically, we don't know, and we won't know unless this poll is conducted properly.
No offence to the people at ATT, but the creation of ATT and the merge and this poll have been filled with controversy, and I don't understand why when this has come up, you aren't doing this simple thing to prevent additional controversy now. I read the replies and all I saw was mud-slinging and people saying that formatting shouldn't be changed post poll-start.
I'll be honest, I have problems with ATT and my biggest problem with this whole thing is how it's been done. You don't need to be a genuis to see that the background section on the poll page is POV, IMO, and this recent edit war is just another example of what I see as a major problem.
This issue--a legitimate one has been raised. No particular reason not to do it has been given in response. This is a chance for ATT editors to respond to the claims that they are pushing other editors out, and forcing their opinions by letting an edit that, unless they believe their votes come from people going "oooh, first" doesn't affect them. If ATT editors succeed in keeping this edit from going through, it's one more mark against ATT, the poll, and a mark against the poll results.
I think that the order of Yes and No, both sectionally and in re the essays should be switched. If you disagree, please say why--not just "leave it as is". I'm asking for a reason that we shouldn't do this, a reason important enough that it would take precedence over normal polling procedures.
There is a reason that we use control groups. It's so we know that the results we have are acurate. If we are going to purposefully avoid using one, we should have a good reason. I am very frustrated here--this isn't a big issue to me, but I'm annoyed at how the burden of proof for this edit taking place is somehow on the user(s) who want this edit to take place, when a user made an edit and provided a reason and now has editors who agree with the edit and the reasoning behind it, and while their are editors who disagree with the edit, no reasoning, other than "we shouldn't touch the page" has been provided. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the comments, and for people mostly keeping a cool head, but my point remains--no one really has a reason not to do it.
The only things that were raised as objections are
Now I listed several reasons to do, only one of which had to with the actual affect on the outcome of the poll. The other issues have to do with pretending that there isn't serious conflict, and since this is a really minor issue and one which there's been no big reason not to do it--it's an easy issue to let go, an easy place to say, "we did x, y, and z, to make sure all was fair"
I'm worried that even the minor, easy issues where the only things that can be raised are quite frankly petty and irrelevant are being squashed.
One side had a content issue, was worried about the outcome of the poll, and the other side said, "well you should have said something earlier"--that's really troublesome.
Also, I wasn't aware about the poll before it started, because contrary to the wonderful description in the first paragraph on the poll page, this was not well publicized, and that's one of the big problems.
And, dividing things up by random sections for ease of use doesn't work well and makes no sense. These divisions work well, are the way polls are usually conducted, and give editors a chance to see what others are saying without wading through everything. This proposal isn't going through, and it's one of the least of the problems with this poll, but another problem wasn't necessary and something could have been done about it.
Just because it hasn't been done before, or things aren't going well anyway, doesn't mean we shouldn't do the best we can now. "I don't really think it's necessay"--"we didn't do it last time"--"there's no consensus anyway"--that's basically what most people were saying and that's a terrible attitude. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 00:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, since YOU forked it off to three sections I see here, why are you complaining now...? Just curious. The format we launched it in was a generally commentary free-for-all survey that could be interpreted post-closing. What was your exact need to split it? What was your justification? - Denny 13:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Good gracious!! *MY* suggestion was SECTIONS as in editable sections PER user.
See this version. See the "Click here to submit your statement." button? That was my compromise--if you misinterpreted my sections bit to mean Oppose/Support/etc I'm sorry, thats genuinely not what I meant. All my talk of sections, native section function, etc. is how I thought of the "new section URL" such as:
action=edit§ion=new -- *THAT* section. That's what I'm/was talking about... Specifically as seen in the idea that finally got the damn stupid poll, rolling, at Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll/InsaneDennyIdea - Denny 15:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ladies and Gentlemen: we don't WP:OWN our edits. We are where we are now, and need to play the ball from where it lands -- Kim Bruning 15:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I dunno why you guys didn't just have a blank page and put at the top "State your views on WP:ATT". That's a wiki way to deal with it. You would have had the same result too, as anyone with the least bit of clue could have told you before you began. Grace Note 00:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that Slim Virgin is preventing me from changing my !vote to oppose, which it is (on the immediately pending issues). I will be changing it again now. If this happens again, I will take stronger measures. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Just remove the old opinion and place a new opinion in a new section (This is so not a vote). As long as this affects only the representation of your own opinion, whatever you do is fine. -- Kim Bruning 22:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is appalling. And, btw, because of the end result that was achieved through this, I would have never known that
Pmanderson had changed his vote/added a new opinion, whatever you want to call it, had I not read the talk page. People do read others opinions and find them interesting/helpful/whatever, and so the fact that if I am reading one of the opinions, I don't know that there is an additional one does bother me. The fact that I don't know this because the formatting/placement/whatever of the vote/opinion was changed really bothers me. People should not need to be watching the poll page like hawks, and I shouldn't feel like I'm going to have the wool pulled over my eyes unless I go through the diffs myself.
In re Elinor--striking through isn't necessary, IMO as long as refactoring notes exist, which they don't anymore. Also, strikethroughs are very hard for some people to read.
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 00:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
See also the above section marked purpose. Certain people's words and actions seem contradictory, I'm trying to sort that out.
Could everyone please state what the (remaining) utility of this poll is, a least as far as they themselves are concerned? -- Kim Bruning 22:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Only partly tongue-in-cheek, is there an abstain option? I participated for a while on the talk page of WP:ATT when it was going through its growing pains, and I'm now wondering how the hell to vote here. Is two days enough time to read through even just the discussion here? I shouldn't start thinking my vote won't make any difference, but I hate casting an uninformed vote. Carcharoth 00:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied from my vote: "Oh, by the way, has anyone noticed that the bit under the edit window (you know, the bit no-one really reads) says "Content that violates any copyright will be deleted. Encyclopedic content must be attributable to a reliable source. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL*." - yes, folks, there is a link to Wikipedia:Attribution sitting right there in the boilerplate Wikipedia framework! I wonder if we need a poll on how to word that bit of text?" Carcharoth 00:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
And here I was thinking that it requires quite a decent amount of negotiated agreement to add something to the edit window boilerplate. (ok, keeping this for post-mortem) -- Kim Bruning
Out of curiosity, I conducted my own breakdown of the opinions in the "Neutral/qualified/compromise/other" category (so far)... before I share this info, there are a few (perhaps four or five) comments that I think were placed in this section in error... Where they were either clearly for or clearly against. They should be noted, but I don't think we should move them (at least not without an OK from the editor who made the comment... and probably better if they moved their own comments).
Now... by my reading (and I understand that someone else might see this differently) the break down at this point in time is...
Make of this info what you will... I don't think it really changes things all that much. Blueboar 13:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This topic reminds me of the war on drugs. With the rate of growth of WP and the large amount of existing uncited material, catching reference-challenged wikipedians and slapping them with attribution tags will never solve the problem. Every attribution/verifiability/NOR tag is a speck on WP's credibility. These days it seems like most articles, particularly on popular culture, are preceded by a banner headline proclaiming the article's potential inaccuracy.
A prevention approach would be to make adding references really easy. Right now it's very confusing for the occasional editor. A reference-creation wizard would help. Reference creation should be more foolproof and, most of all, readily available and apparent. H Bruthzoo
Mark Faraday ( talk · contribs) (oppose vote #233) pointed to my !vote in support of WP:ATT, and the !votes of a few other editors, as evidence of "confusion". I don't think I'm confused, but perhaps I was confusing. I support the merger of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS into a single policy, WP:ATT. I believe that it is accurate to view these three as different aspects of a single policy. I also think that there are times when emphasizing one aspect or another is useful. Therefore, I think that WP:ATT should be written in summary style, with WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS treated as sub-articles spun out from the parent, WP:ATT. I consider this to be "broad support" of the merger, but with a nuance. Is that confusing, or does it demonstrate confusion on my part? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This vote seems to have been sprung on us from nowhere. I was not previously aware that these three core policies were in the process of being merged until the message appeared in my user space and I'm sure that most other Wikipedia editors must have been in a similar position. If there is going to be a vote on such an important matter surely the voting period should be extended. Has it been deliberately timed to coincide with the Easter holidays when many people will be away to ensure that Wikipidia Attribution is forced upon the community without a consensus? Dahliarose 22:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of timing, I corrected it once [19]. The poll started, roughly speaking at 04:39 on 31 March [20]. If it is to last for seven days then it should therefore end at, roughly speaking, 04:09 on 7 April (UTC), and not as the header says at the beginning of 6 April. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There's no good reason to ever close it. It's a straw poll, not an election. Why can't people turn up here five years hence and add their views? And Dahliarose, chill out, will you? Policies sum up how we do things. They are descriptive. No one has invented anything or composed anything new. It's just what we already have in a more digestible form. And slightly more slanted to a particular set of views, of course. But nothing all that major. Grace Note 00:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The point of freezing this specific page is to allow first an evaluation by different people on data that is not in flux and secondly to act on this data and evaluations of it by structuring the relevant policy pages and their contents in a way that makes sense given the data and evaluations. Then we can discuss further how to better refine that. It really does never end. But we must close one chapter to begin the next. Modularity is useful. WAS 4.250 02:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Untitled
Neutral attribution.
Reliable cabal.
No original evil.
There is no point of view.
–
Outriggr
§ 04:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I kinda suspect that a nontrivial number of the "support" votes come from people who have only a vague understanding of the issues involved. They scroll down the poll page, see repeated (and bolded) assertions of "Not a policy change," and assume (quite logically, actually) that merging three into one is WP:KISS, since "nothing substantive has actually been changed."
I have also seen "support" voters opining that many "oppose" voters were in fact ill-informed ;-).
I also saw a table above summarizing the reasons for support/oppose.
I propose two dueling essays for the enlightenment of the entire community. each should only be edited by a handful of people on either side of the issue: SandyGeorgia, SlimVirgin, etc. They should not be open to editing by others, to prevent chaotic sprawl. The essays should present very concise summaries of the reasons given in the table "is/is not a policy change" etc. The editors of each can consult with whomever they choose, including especially the editors of the essay that is the counterpart to theirs.
With these in hand, we the hoi polloi :-) will be somewhat better informed.
-- Ling.Nut 04:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I submit that this poll is flawed in its presentation (not in its intention), for at least two reasons:
Thanks for reading my comments. I appreciate the hard work and community-building intentions of everyone who has contributed to the new ATT page and all related discussions and poll responses. This is truly an amazing new kind of social structure and I feel honored to be a part of the process . Parzival418 07:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as Jimmy Wales' influence, I think it biases people to vote No, not to vote Yes. His two famous (or infamous) quotes that led to this poll were clearly critical of the ATT project.
I find this very problematic, even though I myself voted No. My greatest fear is this:
But then I see how this poll has been conducted, and I rest content in the realization that Wikipedia is, as always, a true anarchy! — Lawrence King ( talk) 08:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that a lot of the opposing votes aren't actually voting against having WP:ATT, but are voting against not having WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS. Also, a lot of them are voting 'per Jimbo', which seems to me to be the same position, as Jimbo hasn't stated his position on this page, but apparently agreed that WP:ATT is good in principal although he doesn't want to lose the original pages. A number of people in the third section also have taken this stance.
It strikes me that despite this poll not reaching a consensus (which to me it clearly will not), that the compromise situation (all pages are policy with WP:V et al expanding on the same principles applied at WP:ATT) would have consensus. Unfortunately, despite having been proposed in the early stages, this question wasn't asked.
I'd suggest that whoever ends up closing this thing keeps this possibility in mind when evaluating the oppose votes: sifting them into these two categories may cause a consensus to emerge that isn't obvious from the current categorisation. JulesH 08:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The one thing I was going to do before the time this disaster was scheduled to get off the ground was to make a subpage with suggested questions and link to it. I thought I had two days to do that before the consensus to start no earlier than 00:00 2 April.
I won't bother to assemble it (it would be non-trivial work) if it's going to revwerted by the revert warriors among us. Well? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Something's really uncooked here... this can't be the result of weeks of collaborating.. maybe people who've been working on this have spent to much time only focusing on it, because I don't think the outside editor is getting the full story. This is an absurd joke of a poll, and it seems to have been opened now only out of frustration. -- Ned Scott 02:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Ned: You are reverting 20 editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
We can restore their comments later, but we should halt the poll at this point. Why the hell were we taking our time with the poll and this discussion in the first place if only a hand full of editors just up and decide to throw that out the window? -- Ned Scott 03:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone explain what is going on, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Jossi has a point. This page, which I regret to say I created, has probably wasted two whole hours of my life. I could've written five or six missing Nigeria-geo-stubs in that time. Oh well, I'm out. Of the watchlist it goes. Picaroon 04:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Where was the consensus to wait, SMcC? I only saw people saying either let's go ahead, or let's not have a poll at all (with my own preference the latter). SlimVirgin (talk) 05:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Opening of this poll came as a complete surprise, but wording is not bad. Leaving out the questions is probably the best compromise solution. -- Vision Thing -- 10:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone restart this, and please put up the proper watchlist notification that was agreed upon so that everyone knows the poll is going? But *BEFORE* that happens can someone please refactor the responses into the "Sections" format? Having an editing free for all in one section will have edit conflicts out the butt later. - Denny 04:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Given the recent reverting about whether or not the poll is open, I added {{Warning|<big>'''Whether or not this poll is open yet is disputed. If you vote, your vote might be archived.'''</big>}} to the top of the page. I think editors who are voting have a right to know that their vote might not count if the poll is cancelled. I do not mean to express an opinion about whether or not the poll is or should be open right now. However, I think people should know. I therefore request that the tag be restored until the issue is clearly resolved. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 04:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Would someone please change "How to participate in this poll" in the header to be a level 2 section heading instead of just bold, so it shows up in the TOC? CMummert · talk 04:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a stray horizontal rule at the bottom of the /header. Please delete. And unprotect. No one is editwarring over the intro, which has been stable for a week, and it's unbelievably silly that I have to come make an editprotected just to fix a typo. <grumble> — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Amarkov moo! has objected to the Neutral/qualified/compromise section header. How would people rather it be sectioned? — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't change another person's comments by recontexting them as for example by putting them in new sections or relabeling sections. We are here to get people to contribute their opinions. Recontexting their opinions constitutes fighting about the nature and definition of the consensus that we are trying to guage and is counterproductive to an honest effort to seek consensus. Leave the structue of this structured discussion alone. Let people say what they will without spinning things. Please. Please? WAS 4.250 05:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How can something attempting to be factual be so incredibly biased? Anyway, we're directing users who don't know about this to a page filled with "Yay for WP:ATT!", which might have a little teeny (read HUGE) effect on the results. - Amarkov moo! 05:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I am going to point out that I agree that this poll is biased, per the original poster. tiny effects indeed. —— Eagle101 Need help? 19:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} OLD:
NEW:
The community discussion is an order of magnitude more important than either of the two essays. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 05:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm troubled by the number of editors stating, to quote one, "I do not support putting attributability above truth". I have to assume that they think the WP:V policy is different from WP:ATT in this regard—but of course, it's not.
Please examine the policies in greater detail to ensure that, if you oppose WP:ATT based on its content, the same content does not also exist in the predecessor policies. – Outriggr § 07:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Such comments do not trouble me at all. When this discussion is closed, such comments will not be used to decide if V and NOR are merged as they do not address that issue. But they will be used to illuminate efforts to improve the wording of our suite of policies. Such comments make it clear that WP:ATT is unclear with regard to "true" or "truth". WAS 4.250 23:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
As I watch ATT go down in flames, it makes me think about the real problem. A wiki is a wonderful invention, but it doesn't lend itself to consenus driven policy changes. The notice at the top of the watchlist is the best attempt I've seen at finding a way to deal with changes that effects 10's of thousands of users. We need to devolop a system that scales. If 1000's of user could have participated in creating ATT, there might be 1000's of supports. The solution may be software related, in which case we need to come up with something we can do in the meantime. - Peregrine Fisher 07:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
For major site wide/major policy matters/critical issue stuff we should just always use watchlist in the future. No harm in that. -
Denny 07:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
How do you close a poll in which 500 users are in broad support and 500 users in broad oppose? What is consensus in this case? No consensus for the merge, and no consensus to undo the merge. Where is Solomon when we need him? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Remember too that the internet is quietest on the Weekend. When everyone gets to work at 8am Monday Eastern (since--correct me if wrong--most WP editors are North American?) time the poll will go bananas for days. - Denny 17:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Blue Tie 02:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo's objection to the merger originally was that it was done without enough publicity, correct? The consensus principle here has always held that people who don't talk are choosing to abide by the decisions made by those that do talk, because anything else would be impossible and require we notify every single user. But this has now been challenged by Jimbo, who is claiming that more must be done to publicize these things before we can claim to have assent from all the passive users. As an attempt to satisfy his wishes, we have now begun the use of watchlist announcements for policy changes. This has been both criticized as annoying and praised, but if one thing is for sure, it's that it has been highly effective in getting a large numeric turnout.
I believe that regardless of the outcome of this poll and discussion, the discovery that watchlist messages work may have a more transformative change on future policy working than the WP:A merger ever would have.
What if in the future we notify everyone via watchlist for 2 weeks/a month (timeframe negotiable) whenever there is a major change proposed. We wouldn't have to do this for every single WP:VPR thread, of course, but once something has been hammered out to the working draft level at least, if it was a proposal that could have a real effect on the community, we would add it to the message. The message could come in the form of a show/hide box which hides by default, but which when expanded gives a brief overview of all the current major discussions, and maybe include links to RfA and the like if there was nothing major going on at the time. I believe people would get used to the box rather quickly, but to deal with the inevitable annoyance complaints it could be designed to be unobtrusive, and we could give clear directions on how to opt out using your monobook on the help page for the watchlist message feature.
If we adopted this, we could then avoid messy confirmation polls because everyone had been quite clearly informed of the discussion and those who didn't speak had quite clearly chosen not to do so. Would it be an increase in bureaucracy? Yes, it would. But a much smaller increase than that which will be required if we end up having to run these damned polls every time someone wants to change something. -- tjstrf talk 08:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
We are not lacking a weekly pay attention to me device. Signpost. WAS 4.250 11:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
One general comment - the level of notification ought to be in proportion to the level of the change. If you are suggesting a minor change to a policy of limited interest, that's one thing, but this is a major change to Wikipedia's fundamental content policies. I don't consider myself to be uninvolved, but the first I heard of it was in the last week or two before it went live and the merger was already said to be a done deal. -- BigDT 13:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Would someone else like to take on the job of moving User:Slrubenstein's responses from the poll to the discussion page? There are one or two other users who have left responses, as well. CMummert · talk 15:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
--- Begin amended comment
--- End of amended comment
Rednblu, why do you keep calling me "honorable?" Slrubenstein | Talk 09:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
My !vote, and I believe a half-dozen others, support some merge, but not a merge to WP:ATT. This is a particular position, which should not be muted. Move people out again, if warranted, but don't give it a vague title. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
I think adding or changing category names while the poll is ongoing is corrupting the poll process and its results. It is totally unacceptable. Crum375 15:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
SMcCandlish may ask you for something? Let go,nothing more to fo around here until the end poll. There are articles to edits, vandals to bet stopped, and many other useful things. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like this poll will not end with a clear endorsement of the merger. Unless many of the oppose votes are discounted based on their clear misunderstandings of the issues (e.g., all the people who think "verifiability=truth"), we'll be back at square one, more or less. And ironically, those confused oppose votes are exactly the target audience in some respect. I think it is especially important to at least do something to reform the problematic title and language of "verifiability".-- ragesoss 16:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an issue for those who compile the results and make their recommendaions to Jimbo. If it were up to me (and thankfully it isn't) I would start off by giving a straight count...
Then break break the results down further listing the more common comments...
Etc. Etc. Etc. - it will be time consuming... but will let Jimbo (and the community at large) fully see where the consensus is or isn't.
It will be up to Jimbo to decide if he wants to discount the "Truth" votes or not. Blueboar 16:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Right now, we have a "Support some merger, but not this one" subsection and a "Compromise/Neutral" subsection, with "other" apparently having gone poof! If we are going to break this up rather than lumping it all together, as it was originally, we should do it all the way, and have four subsections. However, since moving votes around can be a controversial issue, I suggest just adding new sections and encouraging people to move their votes into the new sections rather than the old lumped together ones. To make this more transitional, all should be subsections of the original lumped section, Neutral/qualified/compromise/other. Thanks, Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 17:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It is going fine. No need to fiddle with it. Le's leave it alone and let editors make their opinion known. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
A couple of editors seem to continue to comment on other persons' comments; in particular commenting on the "truth-vreifiability" issue in people's oppose votes. Is the warning about not starting a discussion on the poll page not strong enough? Could such "comments on the comments" be refactored out? It is not helpful to have the poll cluttered with such comments, nor is it appropriate for some editors to start such discussions on the poll page (there are plenty of other pages where that discussion in happenning). -- Pastordavid 18:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Refactoring note: Many or all of these comments were originally placed as replies to votes on the poll page, and were moved here. To see a version of the page before the moving started, see here. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 21:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
List of removals from the poll page (add to this if something is missing): [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]
I strongly oppose ATT, because it denigrates factuality and accuracy (i.e. truth). Attribution is very important, but not more important than accuracy. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 02:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
oppose Hopelessly naive, I can cite all kinds of controversial or even false things to generally 'reliable sources'. Truth matters, not just attribution. Verification and original research are not synonyms. [13] Derex 05:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose WP:V and WP:NOR are different things. Verifiability is merely that something can be verified...it has little if anything to do with NOR.-- MONGO 06:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose - Disgusted that attribution is seen as more important than truth. This needs to be remedied before any other changes are made. michael talk 06:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The existing policies were working, even though there were arguments. This is a huge policy change, not a combination of existing policies. For example, the "unpublished synthesis of published material" section is new policy, not in WP:RS. This "Attribution" page suddenly become policy, just from commentary on its own talk page, which is wierd. -- John Nagle 15:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I oppose the proposed merging of pages, because I believe it's important to keep policy pages separate, in order to prevent the creation of one excessively large (and thus probably ignored) page. I believe it is best to keep the policies on their own separate pages. Philippe 01:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I support the concept of merging the articles, but I do not support putting attributability above truth. False content should not be included just because it is attributable. Jwolfe 05:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment The comments by Slrubenstein replying directly to certain posts/editors above appear intimidatory and seem intended to force consensus by dumping on and hence discouraging less articulate editors from contributing their real concerns on these issues. I obviously dont want to strike them as I'm only a user myself and a fairly new one at that, but I think that in an open community poll someone replying with boilerplate text to a heap of posts should be taken into hand. Nothing against what has been said (although i disagree with it) but more the way in which it has been done. Just my thoughts. DanielT5 18:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
No on WP:ATT. No on any merger idea at this time. Verifiability, ReliableSource, and No personal research are very independent components of high quality Wikipedia pages such as gravity and truth. That is, without a standard for "Verifiability" that is far higher than what mere Attributability requires, editors could not trim the gravity and truth pages to follow faithfully just the facts, not the mere attributions, as established by ReliableSources. Similarly, without a standard for "Verifiability" that is far higher than mere "Attributability," editors cannot trim pages on living persons to exclude fully attributable personal attacks that are baseless, false, and unfair. In the following, the honorable User:Slrubenstein poses the question before us quite succinctly.
Wiki being an introspective beast, I'm wondering if there's a known record for the number of sigs on any one question? This page will inevitably slow down after the first twenty-four, but it could easily go over a thousand after a week. Have we had a thousand comments on anything previously? Just an idle thought... Marskell 20:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading a long time ago about a congressman who said that he had been careful to vote on bills in accordance with his district's wishes until he read a very emotional letter from a constituant pleading with him to not vote for daylight saving time because her flowers in her garden were not getting enough sun as it was. There is something to be said for representational democracy rather than mob rule. WAS 4.250 00:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the refactoring. Can someone explain what has been done, please? It really would be best if we would just leave the page alone, and allow people to comment freely. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
What I think we need to do now is decide how we're going to close this poll. Given that it took us 14 days to choose the wording, and we only have seven days to decide how to close it, we'd do well to get going. :-)
There was a suggestion when the Brandt article was up for deletion the last time that we form a committee to close it. I wonder whether we should do that here. I would suggest five experienced admins: two who may be in favor of the merge; two against; and one who is neutral. They hold a discussion on a designated page, which others can see but can't edit. They reach a decision, and ask Jimbo to ratify it if people think that's necessary. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
When it closes on 4/6/07 00:00, we need to put a note up that says, "Poll is closed. ANY changes or edits to this page will be reverted," and then fully protect the page. Once 4/6/07 00:00 passes there is no need for a single person (including Jimbo) to be editing the poll. The only exception I could see would be if Jimbo himself asked us to reopen/extend the length. Nothing else. Any nonsense or political editing games after that need to be ruthlessly rv'd out to not mess with the community. - Denny 17:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Beside Jimbo, I imagine many, many editors will very actively and justifiably object to any one person determining concensus. Whomever does it, it needs to be multiple people. How about a couple admins, a couple crats, a couple regulars, and then Jimbo determines concensus based on THEIR findings? That is fair. Filtered. No one gets to decide this alone. - Denny 20:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Just throwing a wild idea out (can't hurt, right?): since Jimbo will obviously have the final word, he'll obviously be the final judge - but how about letting the ArbCom make the final recommendation? (I forgot to mention: having interested parties be part of the panel is a very bad idea - they're very likely to have been deeply involved here, and there's a reason we have rules advising strongly against that in XfD's.) Xiner ( talk, a promise) 20:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I can see some votes from users that have just a dozen or so edits in less than 7 days. Not sure how to assess these, if they should be marked as such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what we do with them anymore. -- Kim Bruning 01:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
V-man voted as a reply to Jersyko--since he voted as a reply, it was moved here:
I, liked Armedblowfish, support Wikipedia:Attribution being kept as a summary with a status like WP:5P, but I do not have Armedblowfish's qualms about including WP:RS in the summary. Thus, I think WP:ATT should summarize WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS but I'm unconvinced that it should replace any or all of them. · j e r s y k o talk · 05:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm with Jersyko on that. WP:ATT can be used for general reference on the broad policies regarding attribution, while it will still be useful in the future to be able to refer to the individual WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:V. Even a brief mention of WP:CITE would keep it in context. Having this system will keep Wikipedia organized and familiar in the same style for those who are navigating WP:PAG for the first time. V-Man - T/ C 05:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
V-man, while he may have stylized this as a comment is in fact providing his opinions here for this poll and he doesn't do it anywhere else.
Kasreyn for example who voted and replied to
Philippe's. She provided a comment when she replied to Philippe and a simple vote elsewhere and went back and added more to her vote when she saw here comment was moved, but at least she'd voted.
User:V-Man737 voted on the page earlier, saying, "I oppose opposition to this poll".
He commented less than an hour later on the actual subject of the matter, ATT, and because his comment was indented per replying, wheras his previous comment was per voting, it was considered a comment and not a vote and therefore it was moved.
This is a poll trying to get opinions from the community. V-man provided an opinion and because it was formatted differently, it was removed. He provided an opinion on the poll itself, and because it was formatted properly, it wasn't removed even though that comment probably didn't belong there.
I've moved his comment/vote/whatever you want to call it about ATT and what should happen to it back, and placed it directly after Jersyko's vote--I'm changing no content, just indenting it with a # instead of a :.
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 10:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
At this time, it looks like the community is closely divided over the merger. I imagine it will be a while before we sort out what this vote means, and how it will inform ongoing discussions about policy. Right now I want to call attention to a problem that this poll has highlighted, regardless of views about ATT. Rednblu, EdFitzgerald, Derex, Michael, terence, and JWolfe have justified their votes by insisting on the overriding importance of "truth." Of all the people who are voting this is a tiny minority which is why I say this problem is separate from the debate over ATT. But I find it very frightening for two reasons: first, the principle that representing different views - and the claim that the existence of such views is objective, and theirfore attributable or verifiable (meaning, one can find objective evidence that someone holds this view, e.g. a source) and not the "truth" is the concern of WIkipedia and the standard of inclusion of material in an article has been, in one form or another, the core principle of Wikipedia since its founding, and it has long been explained in different core policies. The fact that some active editors completely discount this principle is dangerous because the only things that hold together this incredibly heterogeneous and quasi-anarchic community is our agreement to work within these core policies. Second, this principle is enshrined in two longstanding policies independent of ATT: NPOV (our oldest policy) and Verifiability (which is several years old). To reject or question this principle is not to question ATT, it is to reject V and NPOV. It is disingenuous and dangerous to use a poll over ATT to reject V and NPOV. I ask fellow Wikipedians to take this problem seriously not because these views are shared by a large group of people - they are not, at least, based on this poll most people have other concerns that motivate their vote. Rather, it is a serious problem because it really gets to the very core of Wikipedia content policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
To argue that "truth" should be the principle governing inclusion in Wikipedia articles implicitly but necessarily involves a rejection of VPOV and V (even if the meaning of V has changed over the years, it certainly was never changed to contradict the dictum, verifiability not truth, nor to contradict our NPOV policy). Whatever other discussion is going on, comments made on the poll page indicate that some people either do reject NPOV (by elevating "truth") or fundamentally misunderstand it - I leave it to others do decide which is more frightening! Slrubenstein | Talk 12:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It might be useful (pragmatic) to deal with wikipedia policy wording concerning "true" or "truth" as a semantic issue rather than as an opportunity to debate epistemology. WAS 4.250 20:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If commenting on the poll page is discouraged, we should probably have a defined section for doing this on the talk page. So I'm starting one here. JulesH 11:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
141 I Oppose the replacement of No Original Research" and "Verifiability" by a single policy of "Attribution" if you want to keep your Attribution page, keep it, but don't crop the three into one lone page.--The Joke 11:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The percentages of support and oppose are pretty close. What percentage does this need to pass? 90%? 75%? 51%? I have a sick feeling that it's all going to stalemate into no consensus. The ikiroid ( talk· desk· Advise me) 19:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Guys, we're being premature. It's the weekend. Wait till a LOT more people see this on Monday/Tuesday. I expect many people edit from work, and will see the header, and swarm here to change things more in some direction. - Denny 20:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This simply means that there is no consensus. There is no such a thing as a status quo as we do in AfDs. What this means is that the community is divided and bridges need to be created. That will be left to the closing committee and Jimbo to decide. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
We have a WP:100 either way. That's no consensus, and that's that. That means you can close it as no consensus anytime today, you can close it no consensus tomorrow, or you can wait 'till the end of the week and close it no consensus then. The numbers are already sufficiently in, and the conclusion is that there is no (longer(!) any) consensus (whatsoever).
This is the most solid "no consensus" in the history of wikipedia.
It's also quite easy to tell you why we got this result. But that's for later, when we do post-mortem.
-- Kim Bruning 01:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC) Remember that for there to be a consensus, there must be no opposition. For rough consensus we can sometimes drop a couple of opinions, so that we can get on with things. But at over 100 opposes, the opposition is considerable enough that anyone would conclude that consensus is absent. We also have over 100 supports, so there is also no consensus to terminate att. So the outcome is Pure No Consensus.
Recommendation for a closing committee? Five admins, five non-admins. Anyone who played a major or vocal role in developing this poll *or* ATT need not apply. Myself, Jossi, Marskell, Slim, Jayjg, WAS, El C, etc. need not or be allowed to apply. Jimbo acts on their recommendations. All work they do: in public, here, subpage. Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll/Closing- Denny 20:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
No, no, NOT a poll. Just ten new people interpret THIS result from the active poll. Jimbo decides based on the ten. - Denny 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo doesn't need a committee of ten to make up his mind for him.
Nor, unless things change drastically, does anyone else. As of now, the |vote is 215-174-47. At least a dozen of 47 oppose merger, another dozen disendorse WP:ATT. Unless the bare yes/no ratio becomes more than 2:1, there will be little need even to discuss it: There is no WP:Consensus for this merger, so it should not happen; there is no wide agreement on WP:ATT, so it is not policy, whatever tags are on it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
What role would the closing committee have? Just post "Closed, no consensus" at the top of the page at the end of your 7-day run or what have you. -- Kim Bruning 01:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I strongly oppose any move to flag or discount the views of users with low edit counts as has been suggested at several different points on this page. It's been mentioned above as a way of somehow tallying the results. I disagree with this on 3 principles and hope that others will see sense in my logic and offer thier support;
1. A user may have a low edit count because they, like me, submit artwork. It can take 20+ hours to draw artwork/maps etc. and only two edits (one to upload it and one to place it on a page) to actually add it to the pedia. Many of us could potentially lose our views to spellcheckers and vandalism reverters with high edit counts simply because their line of work involves heavier edit counts. Consider this as an example, a cartographer (map designer) could spend an average of 10 hours on a map. They may have only 50 edits (2 per map). That would mean they have contributed 250 hours of work to the pedia, yet their views would be flagged up to be taken with a pinch of salt. Also please consider people who do their work in a text editors and upload it in one go, they may only have 50 edits but if those 50 edits each equal one featured article their view hardly deserves to be flagged up as effectively 'inconsequential'.
2. Secondly this isn't a vote, its an opinion poll. Wikipedia isn't a bueracracy and if 499 people say merge but 500 say don't merge (as I expect is probably going to be the case one way or the other) the outcome is not going to be so straightforward and clear as to simply tally up the results, so to flag some peoples views would be senseless and a waste of time, because this isn't a voting process and enough experienced editors on either side of the river are going to add their opinions to make a consensus of opinion one way or the other apparent or (more likely) not apparent.
3. As with any WP opinion poll, everyone is entitled to an opinion. In an RfA non-admins can 'vote' for example, as they may have valuable points to add despite not being an admin themselves. It is especially poignagnt as the people most likely to encounter WP:ATT or WP:NOR, WP:V etc. are new editors, and so if they have an opinion on this new policy merge it should be heard just as loud as anyone else.
Thanks for considering this. I hope you will join my in stopping low edit counts being flagged. WikipedianProlific (Talk) 22:17, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
In defense of WikipedianProlific, unless the Support vs. Oppose numbers are horribly skewed one way, or there are a lot of new accounts, is this really necessary. I mean, go ahead, I suppose, but what a waste of time. Olin 22:41, 1 April 2007 (UTC) And, is that changing the rules mid-stream? Olin 22:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't matter anymore, and WP:BITEs the newbies besides. So no need! :-) -- Kim Bruning 01:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If you wanted discussion, what teh hot hell are we having a vote for? Grace Note 05:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no need to rush. There are still 4 days to go. Let the poll continue unencumbered. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The poll was a announced widely and that includes the closing date of April 6. No going back from that. Leave it alone till then and let's go back to editing articles, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Support arguments | Oppose arguments |
---|---|
Sourcing is one issue | V, OR, (RS) are separate issues |
There is no change in policy | There is change in policy |
One page is easier to understand | ATT encompasses too much ("cumbersome") |
It's better for newcomers | It's better to cite one page or the other |
Stuff about RS here. | |
KISS; we have too many policies | One page is easier to ignore |
All three aspects are important | |
Process was ignored (voting is evil) | |
These policies have been successfully separate for a long time | |
Attribution vs. truth | |
Neutral point of View and No Original Research are better names than Atrribution; merely citing them makes the point. |
(Disclaimer: I did not look at ALL the comments; only the first hundred on each side. Also, I make no claim of being a neutral party; I'm just trying to make sense of the whole conversation. If your argument isn't listed up here I didn't see it or considered it part of a larger argument (a few opposes based on ATT being less understandable I consider part of the "cumbersome" argument). If I'm wrong, trout me)
I'm actually a little surprised at it. Nifboy 05:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The biggest positive is that "attributability" is actually the criterion we use, not "verifiability". We are not aiming at the truth but at beliefs about what the truth is. At an absolute minimum, WP:Verifiability needs rephrasing and renaming. Grace Note 06:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
One of my biggest beefs isn't in the chart: in addition to the argument over whether policy changed, we have the issue of perception of a policy change. In spite of the crafters' intent, attributable but not attributed can be misinterpreted by "experts" and others who want to avoid citing content. Further, I'm kinda glad the poll is still running, as I'm still learning from comments, such as the person who posted this blog entry, which sorta/kinda expresses similar concerns to mine. My most serious reservations are in the emphasis on the wording of attributable but not attributed over verifiable, because it can be misinterpreted. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that a closing committee can determine the outcome of this, it's officially for Jimbo to decide, since basically he was the one who wanted this poll. But, I would like to see a breakdown. The votes have to be gone through anyway, people commented in more than one place, etc, but I'd really like to know some things about the votes and opinions--how many people voting each way had had any prior involvement in the project for example.
Unlike other users here, I don't particularly think that # of edits is, or # of recent edits, or # of recent article edits is a relevant qualifier or tells anything about the results, but I do think that other things are relevant when reading the results--not to discount votes, but to understand them. I'd like to see stats of the results in terms of how many users had made any contribution to ATT, or the other policy articles in question, or if they had major involvement with the creation of ATT, or whether they're an admin--these are just off the top of my head, but could create a list of relevant qualifiers, of things you'd want to know in terms of reading these statistics, and this closing comittee could go through, and look at the votes and provide these stats, and give us other helpful information, like what the biggest issues were.
This was supposed to be a poll to find out how the general wiki community felt. For example, if the majority of the users for or against the poll had a major involvement with the article, that tells us something. If the number one thing users who voted against ATT mentioned was that they didn't like the poll, or thought there was no consensus in the article, then we know that they might be voting based on emotions and haven't really looked at the articles. In that case, an ATT proposal might fare much better down the line when everyone on both sides could agree that their was consensus and users weren't scared away from editing etc. If they mention things that they like or don't like specifically--then we have an idea of what to do. A lot of users proposed ideas, or made suggestions about where to go from here. Maybe there's some sort of consensus in that, or at least something for good talk page discussion to get moving forward.
Just tagging the poll with the results and being done with it is foolish. There's a wealth of data there that hundreds of wiki users have gone to the trouble of providing, and given the enormous amount of time spent trying to get this article up as policy, and the time just spent trying to get this poll off the ground, it would be not only foolish to not take advantage of it, it would be a serious waste of everyone's time. What's the point in the community providing opinions if this is being treated like a raise-your-hands-and -tally vote?
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 06:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
ref:
#Talk of flagging users with low edit counts
"New editors rarely, if ever, have a good understanding of policy, and so are unable to comment on it in a meaningful way.
Are you kidding
Jayjg? I sometimes wonder why we have policies like
WP:BITE when I see any new user who manages to find their way to AIN crucified instantly--they must be something suspcious, how could they know?
A new editor, makes a mistake, or gets a welcome message on their talk page and so they are pointed to WP:V, or WP:NOR and they find out about this poll. You think that new editors aren't capable of spending hours reading the old policy pages and the new policy pages and the poll page and voting? You think that they aren't capable of realizing that if this is one of the first things that they are pointed to, and it could be changed, they might want to pay attention? Or maybe, they became Wikipedians because they were outright curious. The click click disease. How are they any different from us? We came first, we came earlier and have some claim that they do not? You can't judge an opinion on it's merit anyway, it's an opinion. Why aren't we clammoring to throw out the opinions from the people who clearly didn't read the policies-who admitted as such, or who disregarded major things? Because we would have to drawn the line somewhere and we have no place to draw it, except at the cold hard facts of when a user created an account and how many edits they have. Even though you can see nothing of a user from those facts.
We're commenting right and left about how such and such is or isn't easier for newbies to understand. Why don't we listen to them instead? Oh, because they can't possibly have a good understand of policy or comment on it in a meaningful way. If that's true, then the whole arguement about what is and isn't easier for newbies to understand is bull, because by definition, newbies can't understand, and they can't even comment meaningfully of what they do or don't understand.
This poll needs newbies, because these are the policy pages we send newbies to. We send them to NOR and V and RS, and some editors have started sending them to ATT. During the time that this poll was and is going on, new users have been sent to these pages in droves and will continue to be. The more involved ones will end up here. We should be welcomming them, asking them, begging them for their opinions, instead of once again disregarding them as the lower class of Wikipedia. We cannot claim that these pages are for newbies, and be unwilling to listen to them. If we do, then these pages are not really for newbies, but for us, so that we can lecture and prescribe and prosthelytize without caring whether or not they understand or agree.
Also, this poll never says that users must have had a certain number of edits before the opening of the poll, or must be a -------- old. No requirements were placed beforehand, which means that discounting these opinions, especially since this is an OPINION POLL and NOT A VOTE, seems to me to be a serious violation of WP:BITE. New accounts that seem suspect in some other manner should be looked at in re various puppetries, but if they are not suspect for some other clearly definable reason, then punishing these accounts (for showing up here) in any way, including by ignoring their opinions here would be at least a violation of WP:BITE. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 08:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(copy)
Anyone who started an account after the poll started should have their comment flagged. End of story. It doesn't mean we need to ignore their comment; it's basic common sense. I removed two comments from the support section last night and started a SOCK report. I only noticed because they were red-linked. All the comments need to be checked. Marskell 08:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
"Grounds for Suspicion" does not justify taking it upon yourself to unilaterally edit out other people's comments. You are corrupting the process, in the middle of a highly contentious dispute. zadignose 10:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Generally, "flagging" the comments of new users, considering them of less value, discounting them, and especially editing them out are clearly against the spirit of Wikipedia, and seem to ignore that the purpose of a poll is to guage opinion. Saying "end of story" isn't a great justification for sabotaging a poll by aggressive edits and biased assertions. zadignose 10:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Please, noone remove people's comments. If you feel inclined to do so, then a block until the poll closes may be in order. --
bainer (
talk) 12:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Guys, only thing that should be removed are comments threaded. We can flag new accounts... but nothing should be removed. Just change the *'s to #'s, tag ultra new accounts that snuck past the sprotection, and thats it. Oh, and use the unsigned template for those like I just did. - Denny 13:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There's also the issue of "sleeper accounts". I'm certain I saw an Oppose last night from an account that had six edits back in November, and then about 50 edits since the poll was announced. Hard to know how to interpret those, considering AGF. I thought it was red-linked at the time, but it may have changed, so I doubt I can find it again. Anyway, since the "poll" isn't a "vote" or "tally", I suppose it doesn't much matter; the comments have been instructive. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I caught this and then fixed it over the next 3 edits. I really, really hope no one missed anything like this along the way... should the closers (multiple) audit afterwards? :( - Denny 16:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Starting this simply for the 'interesting' factor, for those curious to watch this as it unfolds and see how many people actually contribute each day and how. Whens the last time this many people saw/got directed to one thing on Wikipedia to contribute? Ever? Basing this on the diff/version of the FIRST edit after that day's 00:00 UST passes by. - Denny 16:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Day | aggregate total | daily increase | total users | percentages at close incl neutral/qualified/compromise/other | percentages at close excl neutral/qualified/compromise/other | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Saturday ( 3/30 to 4/1) | 138 / 121 / 32 | +138 +121 +32 / +291 | 291 | 47.4% / 41.6% / 11.0% | 53.3% / 46.7% |
2 | Sunday ( 4/1 to 4/2) | 224 / 174 / 49 | +86 +53 +17 / +156 | 447 | 50.1% / 38.9% / 11.0% | 56.3% / 43.7% |
3 | Monday ( 4/2 to 4/3) | 281 / 219 / 60 | +57 +45 +11 / +113 | 560 | 50.2% / 39.1% / 10.7% | 56.2% / 43.8% |
4 | Tuesday ( 4/3 to 4/4) | 330 / 262 / 71 | +49 +43 +11 / +102 | 663 | 49.8% / 39.5% / 10.7% | 55.7% / 44.3% |
5 | Wednesday ( 4/4 to 4/5) | 356 / 298 / 83 | +26 +36 +12 / +74 | 737 | 48.3% / 40.4% / 11.3% | 54.4% / 45.6% |
6 | Thursday ( 4/5 to 4/6) | 391 / 329 / 89 | +35 +31 +6 / +72 | 809 | 48.3% / 40.7% / 11.0% | 54.3% / 45.7% |
7 | Friday (final survey 'stats') |
Actually, the fascinating thing is, unless one "group" gets a sudden consciousness, statistically speaking, it shouldn't change much, by the central limit theorem. Olin
As for votes/polls that got a lot of input, see WP:200. The Main Page redesign vote had nearly 1000 participants, I believe, and some of the Wikipedia elections have had even larger numbers, and Wikimedia elections (involving editors in projects worldwide) have had even larger numbers. One day someone will write all this down properly... I'm rather shell-shocked to realise that I forgot all about this poll, and only rediscovered it when I stumbled across the MfD. Must pay more attention! Carcharoth 22:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Just FYI, my posting this is no bearing on much of anything. It was just a barely scientific idea to look at how (the biggest ever?) poll here unfolds a bit. - Denny 23:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Refactoring note: I changed the headings to say "neutral/qualified/compromise/other", as in the poll, rather than "neutral". [16] — Armed Blowfish ( mail) 04:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC), 04:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we sub-section the headings at each 100 for ease of editing? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
hmmm ... someone just sub-sectioned the neutrals, and it worked. But I think subs at 50 is too clunky. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
And here with have a classic case of the problem with Wikipedia. There's no need for this policy clarification to even be discussed: combining these mutually overlapping policies into one clear statement should have been done years ago. There is no credible argument against it. But because Wikipedia has no competent editorial oversight, you get the hoi polloi all clamoring to be heard and tossing in their opinion just because they can. It's absurd. -- BBlackmoor (talk) • 2007-04-02 22:13Z
The real problem with Wikipedia is that minority views on how to write an encyclopedia can get a traction if not kept in check. Agreed. Although it might not really be such real problem now, but it will stifle future development. I am convinced that such minority views already have traction (especially with regard to “notability”). I would blame confusion on the excessive number of creepy policies/guidelines. There are too many. But cutting back on the core policies is the wrong thing to do. I would like to cut any rescriptive policy/guideline that even seems to conflict with WP:5P. SmokeyJoe 01:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
derstood OR is. A lot of people are working with a simplistic view that leaves open all sorts of scope for OR by synthesis. Somehow we need to make clearer that the idea is not to present your own theory or narrative, even if you leave it implicit rather than joining the dots, and even if you cite all the facts on which it is based. You have to find someone who has actually joined the dots, say how they've done it, and cite that. Metamagician3000 02:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a theory (that anyone who knows anything about real-world polls can back) that the +/- order of the poll is skewing the results. If I'm right, then inverting the order in the poll of the Support/Oppose sections for the less-than-half of the poll remaining is only fair. If I'm wrong, then doing that inversion will have no effect whatsoever. I find it surprising that I'm being reverted on that minor twiddle, since reverting appears to imply that one supports bias in the poll, or that one is reflexively reverting simply to resist changes. I find that puzzling. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 08:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Changing the order of the choices after the poll has started is simply bizarre. I've never seen that done anywhere. Even apart from the idea of changing, I've never seen a poll that had "no" before "yes". Think of the RfA votes, for example. ElinorD (talk) 13:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
There was a reason at the end of the discussion I was heck-bent to make the poll/survey just be, "Hey, what do YOU think?" with each person adding one new self-contained section with the new section function, and no one but that person being allowed to edit in each user's little box for the 7 days. ;) Who actually added the support/oppose/etc breakdown after launch? - Denny 13:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Keeping support section first whole time is biasing poll. It suggests that voters are expected to vote for support in largest numbers, and for neutral (last option) in smallest. -- Vision Thing -- 21:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What's the purpose of this exercise?
Ok, well, We've eliminated the impossible, So whatever remains must be the truth.
But before we start drawing premature conclusions, does anyone have a possible reasonable explanation that's missing from the above?
-- Kim Bruning 12:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What about that page? It is presently listed as a "proposal", but depending on the outcome of this poll it probably isn't. >Radiant< 11:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
When polling, it's customary to give half the polling population the questionaire with one option first and half with the other option first just in case that difference is not negligible. Believe it or not, people will vote based on order of questions.
Yes, this is an opinion poll, but not everyone who comes here will go and read all of the policies in question and both statements. Some users may rely on looking at other users votes--like looking at a talk page. When you get to the page, what you see in what order certainly affects your opinion--users have been commenting in reply or support or opposition of other users opinions and we know that they aren't reading all of the votes on the page. What a user sees has some effect. Whether it has any effect numerically, we don't know, and we won't know unless this poll is conducted properly.
No offence to the people at ATT, but the creation of ATT and the merge and this poll have been filled with controversy, and I don't understand why when this has come up, you aren't doing this simple thing to prevent additional controversy now. I read the replies and all I saw was mud-slinging and people saying that formatting shouldn't be changed post poll-start.
I'll be honest, I have problems with ATT and my biggest problem with this whole thing is how it's been done. You don't need to be a genuis to see that the background section on the poll page is POV, IMO, and this recent edit war is just another example of what I see as a major problem.
This issue--a legitimate one has been raised. No particular reason not to do it has been given in response. This is a chance for ATT editors to respond to the claims that they are pushing other editors out, and forcing their opinions by letting an edit that, unless they believe their votes come from people going "oooh, first" doesn't affect them. If ATT editors succeed in keeping this edit from going through, it's one more mark against ATT, the poll, and a mark against the poll results.
I think that the order of Yes and No, both sectionally and in re the essays should be switched. If you disagree, please say why--not just "leave it as is". I'm asking for a reason that we shouldn't do this, a reason important enough that it would take precedence over normal polling procedures.
There is a reason that we use control groups. It's so we know that the results we have are acurate. If we are going to purposefully avoid using one, we should have a good reason. I am very frustrated here--this isn't a big issue to me, but I'm annoyed at how the burden of proof for this edit taking place is somehow on the user(s) who want this edit to take place, when a user made an edit and provided a reason and now has editors who agree with the edit and the reasoning behind it, and while their are editors who disagree with the edit, no reasoning, other than "we shouldn't touch the page" has been provided. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the comments, and for people mostly keeping a cool head, but my point remains--no one really has a reason not to do it.
The only things that were raised as objections are
Now I listed several reasons to do, only one of which had to with the actual affect on the outcome of the poll. The other issues have to do with pretending that there isn't serious conflict, and since this is a really minor issue and one which there's been no big reason not to do it--it's an easy issue to let go, an easy place to say, "we did x, y, and z, to make sure all was fair"
I'm worried that even the minor, easy issues where the only things that can be raised are quite frankly petty and irrelevant are being squashed.
One side had a content issue, was worried about the outcome of the poll, and the other side said, "well you should have said something earlier"--that's really troublesome.
Also, I wasn't aware about the poll before it started, because contrary to the wonderful description in the first paragraph on the poll page, this was not well publicized, and that's one of the big problems.
And, dividing things up by random sections for ease of use doesn't work well and makes no sense. These divisions work well, are the way polls are usually conducted, and give editors a chance to see what others are saying without wading through everything. This proposal isn't going through, and it's one of the least of the problems with this poll, but another problem wasn't necessary and something could have been done about it.
Just because it hasn't been done before, or things aren't going well anyway, doesn't mean we shouldn't do the best we can now. "I don't really think it's necessay"--"we didn't do it last time"--"there's no consensus anyway"--that's basically what most people were saying and that's a terrible attitude. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 00:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, since YOU forked it off to three sections I see here, why are you complaining now...? Just curious. The format we launched it in was a generally commentary free-for-all survey that could be interpreted post-closing. What was your exact need to split it? What was your justification? - Denny 13:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Good gracious!! *MY* suggestion was SECTIONS as in editable sections PER user.
See this version. See the "Click here to submit your statement." button? That was my compromise--if you misinterpreted my sections bit to mean Oppose/Support/etc I'm sorry, thats genuinely not what I meant. All my talk of sections, native section function, etc. is how I thought of the "new section URL" such as:
action=edit§ion=new -- *THAT* section. That's what I'm/was talking about... Specifically as seen in the idea that finally got the damn stupid poll, rolling, at Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll/InsaneDennyIdea - Denny 15:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Ladies and Gentlemen: we don't WP:OWN our edits. We are where we are now, and need to play the ball from where it lands -- Kim Bruning 15:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I dunno why you guys didn't just have a blank page and put at the top "State your views on WP:ATT". That's a wiki way to deal with it. You would have had the same result too, as anyone with the least bit of clue could have told you before you began. Grace Note 00:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that Slim Virgin is preventing me from changing my !vote to oppose, which it is (on the immediately pending issues). I will be changing it again now. If this happens again, I will take stronger measures. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Just remove the old opinion and place a new opinion in a new section (This is so not a vote). As long as this affects only the representation of your own opinion, whatever you do is fine. -- Kim Bruning 22:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is appalling. And, btw, because of the end result that was achieved through this, I would have never known that
Pmanderson had changed his vote/added a new opinion, whatever you want to call it, had I not read the talk page. People do read others opinions and find them interesting/helpful/whatever, and so the fact that if I am reading one of the opinions, I don't know that there is an additional one does bother me. The fact that I don't know this because the formatting/placement/whatever of the vote/opinion was changed really bothers me. People should not need to be watching the poll page like hawks, and I shouldn't feel like I'm going to have the wool pulled over my eyes unless I go through the diffs myself.
In re Elinor--striking through isn't necessary, IMO as long as refactoring notes exist, which they don't anymore. Also, strikethroughs are very hard for some people to read.
Miss Mondegreen |
Talk 00:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
See also the above section marked purpose. Certain people's words and actions seem contradictory, I'm trying to sort that out.
Could everyone please state what the (remaining) utility of this poll is, a least as far as they themselves are concerned? -- Kim Bruning 22:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Only partly tongue-in-cheek, is there an abstain option? I participated for a while on the talk page of WP:ATT when it was going through its growing pains, and I'm now wondering how the hell to vote here. Is two days enough time to read through even just the discussion here? I shouldn't start thinking my vote won't make any difference, but I hate casting an uninformed vote. Carcharoth 00:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied from my vote: "Oh, by the way, has anyone noticed that the bit under the edit window (you know, the bit no-one really reads) says "Content that violates any copyright will be deleted. Encyclopedic content must be attributable to a reliable source. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL*." - yes, folks, there is a link to Wikipedia:Attribution sitting right there in the boilerplate Wikipedia framework! I wonder if we need a poll on how to word that bit of text?" Carcharoth 00:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
And here I was thinking that it requires quite a decent amount of negotiated agreement to add something to the edit window boilerplate. (ok, keeping this for post-mortem) -- Kim Bruning
Out of curiosity, I conducted my own breakdown of the opinions in the "Neutral/qualified/compromise/other" category (so far)... before I share this info, there are a few (perhaps four or five) comments that I think were placed in this section in error... Where they were either clearly for or clearly against. They should be noted, but I don't think we should move them (at least not without an OK from the editor who made the comment... and probably better if they moved their own comments).
Now... by my reading (and I understand that someone else might see this differently) the break down at this point in time is...
Make of this info what you will... I don't think it really changes things all that much. Blueboar 13:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This topic reminds me of the war on drugs. With the rate of growth of WP and the large amount of existing uncited material, catching reference-challenged wikipedians and slapping them with attribution tags will never solve the problem. Every attribution/verifiability/NOR tag is a speck on WP's credibility. These days it seems like most articles, particularly on popular culture, are preceded by a banner headline proclaiming the article's potential inaccuracy.
A prevention approach would be to make adding references really easy. Right now it's very confusing for the occasional editor. A reference-creation wizard would help. Reference creation should be more foolproof and, most of all, readily available and apparent. H Bruthzoo
Mark Faraday ( talk · contribs) (oppose vote #233) pointed to my !vote in support of WP:ATT, and the !votes of a few other editors, as evidence of "confusion". I don't think I'm confused, but perhaps I was confusing. I support the merger of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS into a single policy, WP:ATT. I believe that it is accurate to view these three as different aspects of a single policy. I also think that there are times when emphasizing one aspect or another is useful. Therefore, I think that WP:ATT should be written in summary style, with WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS treated as sub-articles spun out from the parent, WP:ATT. I consider this to be "broad support" of the merger, but with a nuance. Is that confusing, or does it demonstrate confusion on my part? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This vote seems to have been sprung on us from nowhere. I was not previously aware that these three core policies were in the process of being merged until the message appeared in my user space and I'm sure that most other Wikipedia editors must have been in a similar position. If there is going to be a vote on such an important matter surely the voting period should be extended. Has it been deliberately timed to coincide with the Easter holidays when many people will be away to ensure that Wikipidia Attribution is forced upon the community without a consensus? Dahliarose 22:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
On the issue of timing, I corrected it once [19]. The poll started, roughly speaking at 04:39 on 31 March [20]. If it is to last for seven days then it should therefore end at, roughly speaking, 04:09 on 7 April (UTC), and not as the header says at the beginning of 6 April. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There's no good reason to ever close it. It's a straw poll, not an election. Why can't people turn up here five years hence and add their views? And Dahliarose, chill out, will you? Policies sum up how we do things. They are descriptive. No one has invented anything or composed anything new. It's just what we already have in a more digestible form. And slightly more slanted to a particular set of views, of course. But nothing all that major. Grace Note 00:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The point of freezing this specific page is to allow first an evaluation by different people on data that is not in flux and secondly to act on this data and evaluations of it by structuring the relevant policy pages and their contents in a way that makes sense given the data and evaluations. Then we can discuss further how to better refine that. It really does never end. But we must close one chapter to begin the next. Modularity is useful. WAS 4.250 02:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Untitled
Neutral attribution.
Reliable cabal.
No original evil.
There is no point of view.
–
Outriggr
§ 04:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I kinda suspect that a nontrivial number of the "support" votes come from people who have only a vague understanding of the issues involved. They scroll down the poll page, see repeated (and bolded) assertions of "Not a policy change," and assume (quite logically, actually) that merging three into one is WP:KISS, since "nothing substantive has actually been changed."
I have also seen "support" voters opining that many "oppose" voters were in fact ill-informed ;-).
I also saw a table above summarizing the reasons for support/oppose.
I propose two dueling essays for the enlightenment of the entire community. each should only be edited by a handful of people on either side of the issue: SandyGeorgia, SlimVirgin, etc. They should not be open to editing by others, to prevent chaotic sprawl. The essays should present very concise summaries of the reasons given in the table "is/is not a policy change" etc. The editors of each can consult with whomever they choose, including especially the editors of the essay that is the counterpart to theirs.
With these in hand, we the hoi polloi :-) will be somewhat better informed.
-- Ling.Nut 04:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I submit that this poll is flawed in its presentation (not in its intention), for at least two reasons:
Thanks for reading my comments. I appreciate the hard work and community-building intentions of everyone who has contributed to the new ATT page and all related discussions and poll responses. This is truly an amazing new kind of social structure and I feel honored to be a part of the process . Parzival418 07:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as Jimmy Wales' influence, I think it biases people to vote No, not to vote Yes. His two famous (or infamous) quotes that led to this poll were clearly critical of the ATT project.
I find this very problematic, even though I myself voted No. My greatest fear is this:
But then I see how this poll has been conducted, and I rest content in the realization that Wikipedia is, as always, a true anarchy! — Lawrence King ( talk) 08:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that a lot of the opposing votes aren't actually voting against having WP:ATT, but are voting against not having WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS. Also, a lot of them are voting 'per Jimbo', which seems to me to be the same position, as Jimbo hasn't stated his position on this page, but apparently agreed that WP:ATT is good in principal although he doesn't want to lose the original pages. A number of people in the third section also have taken this stance.
It strikes me that despite this poll not reaching a consensus (which to me it clearly will not), that the compromise situation (all pages are policy with WP:V et al expanding on the same principles applied at WP:ATT) would have consensus. Unfortunately, despite having been proposed in the early stages, this question wasn't asked.
I'd suggest that whoever ends up closing this thing keeps this possibility in mind when evaluating the oppose votes: sifting them into these two categories may cause a consensus to emerge that isn't obvious from the current categorisation. JulesH 08:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)