This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
See Wikipedia:Arbitration policy
Bravo for coming up with a clear and fair policy (not that I had doubts you would). I am sure we could quibble all day long on minor issues, but the core of it is, I believe the policies here are fair and will result in fair arbitration. Whether or not it is "optimal" is not the point (I say this in an attempt to forestall an interminal argument here over the minutiae of the policy) -- it is good, and that's what I want. Thank you. Jwrosenzweig 00:32, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Instead of the word "trial", perhaps a better term would be "hearing"? The first word implies that law is being meted out, while the second does not imply that, & is less formal or intimidating. After all, the worst the Arbitration Committee can is ban someone from Wikipedia, not to deprive that person of life, liberty or property. -- llywrch 03:18, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Generally, I think the policy looks good, but the last provision under "Who takes part" bothers me. I recognize that if arbitrators are to act as a panel, it's better that at least a majority of the panel participate. But if a majority is subject to recusal, it doesn't feel right to ignore that and proceed as if there weren't any issues about the potential fairness of the arbitrators. Especially if most of the potential recusals fall "on one side" of the dispute. A decision by a panel that should have recused itself could be viewed as highly unjust. Rather, since I think such a scenario would be very unusual, the solution could be to consult with Jimbo before proceeding, and perhaps allow substitute arbitrators for the occasion. -- Michael Snow 22:57, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've removed that point, and replaced it with "Arbitrators will not be required to recuse themselves for trivial reasons - merely reverting an edit of a user in arbitration, for example, will likely not be seen as a serious enough conflict of interest to make recusal necessary." Does that seem OK? We can fiddle with it some more if not. -- Camembert
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote "let us invest the Mediation Committee with an explicit power of binding referral to the Arbitration Committee".
Cross-posted to the mailing list: I completely agree with Cimon. If participants in mediation have followed all the steps of the dispute resolution process, mediation has failed, and the mediation committee recommends arbitration, is there any reason the arbitrators still need to vote on whether to accept the case? Can they not trust the mediation committee to make these referrals?
The necessity to go through the additional stage of voting on acceptance of cases seems a waste of time if the mediators have already decided that arbitration is the best route for the person they are referring. I'm not saying they can't veto the referral if they really think that's best, but couldn't the default be acceptance of cases we refer to them rather than the insistence of a vote every time? Angela . 14:07, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
What do you suggest we do when a conflict is not fixed by mediation (or rejected by mediators) and rejected by arbitration ? Do we then refer to Jimbo ? Do we individually fix it ? Do we set another committee to do so ? Are do we just try to forget about it ? FirmLittleFluffyThing
I like all of it, a job very well done! My questions are relating to how new arbitrators would be chosen, how they would step down, and when such circumstances would occur. Would the number of arbitrators stay constant? Also, another side issue (and vitally important one I'd say!) is when will ee have an arbitration commitee for article content disputes? There are many situations where reasonable people disagree, and the present arbitration commitee seems geared entirely towards the unreasonable amongst us ;) Anyhow, thank you for your integrity, and keep up the good work! Cheers, Sam Spade 19:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I wish to call for a purge of the arbitration committee. All active members have demonstrated partiality, and three in particular have been so derelict that nothing short of their immediate expulsion or resignation would be acceptable.
Before I take the trouble to spell out the charges, however, I would like to be told where such complaints should be filed. Shorne 19:54, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It seems that the ArbComm is moving towards a general practice of imposing temporary injunctions (which expire once the ArbComm comes to a final decision on the arbitration matter) against *both* the complainant and the respondent banning both of them from editing certain articles. Such a policy, to my mind, a) will have the effect of discouraging complainants from coming forward in the first place - why make a complaint if you will effectively be punished for doing so b) is at odds with judicial and quasi-judicial practice at least in the Anglo-Saxon and American derived legal systems which most editors on the English language wikipedia are accustomed to c) may have the effect of "blaming the victim" or at least punishing him or her. I would propose that either a) such deliberation related injunctions against the complainant not be permitted under ArbComm policy or b) at the very least they be as narrow as possible ie only relating to article(s) in which the parties involved in the complaint have actually been in conflict or which are *very* closely related. I brought an ArbComm complaint against another editor for personal attacks. Without any finding of fact I am now facing a temporary injunction from editing any and all articles related to a) flags b) facsism and c) Canada (there are hundreds - maybe thousands of "Canada"-related articles) despite the fact that the only sites of dispute (indeed the only articles that the complainant edits) are those related to flags. This strikes me as unjust and I am considering withdrawing my request for arbitration as a result. (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ArmchairVexillologistDon/Proposed decision AndyL 13:51, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The current Arbitration archives looks like it is mostly organized for the benefit and convenience of the Arbitrators. Having dug through those archives so that I could get a better idea of how the Arbitration Committee makes their decisions, and what those decisions might be, I know that it is a tough slog through the archives. It would be great to have some sort of more organized summary of the Arbitration decisions. Creating this summary would be a great way for a couple of the Members Advocates (such as User:Imaglang) to become more familiar with the Arbitration Committee's decisions. It would be nice if the decisions were grouped by the type of decision, and then some sort of template created so that each dispute could be easy understood, with links to the Dispute, Talk, Evidence, and Proposed decision pages, rather than the much condensed format that the Arbitration archives uses. I am also going to put a copy of this suggestion on the talk page for the Assoc. of Members' Advocates. gK ¿? 10:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Considering the degree to which the arbcom still has problems with semi-active members and members who never vote on a case, and considering that the committee is slowing to the glacial pace so unfondly remembered by people from five months ago, I'd like to suggest two possible fixes.
First, that the default position of all arbitrators be assumed as "recuse." That is, until an arbitrator explicitly accepts a case, they are assumed to be recused from that case. If an arbitrator does not vote on a finding or proposal, whether in favor, opposed, or "Neutral - still thinking about it" for, say, a week, assume they're recusing from that specific finding (Which I think should be allowed). This should help keep the necessary majorities to a level consistent with the number of actual arbitrators we have.
Second, that the committee be expanded by 4-8 members. Ideally, this expansion would take place either in parallel with the first idea, or with an explicit note that a vote of 7 arbitrators will always be enough to pass something. The point of these members would be to keep the committee with a functional number of people on every case - not to just increase the number of people who go AWOL.
Otherwise, I have to say, I'm extremely worried about the fact that the committee is so narrowly functional, particularly as the infusion of new blood didn't seem to lead to any sort of lasting solution. Snowspinner 16:30, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've been involved in two recent cases where the issue of Arbcom member recusal has been a problem. Currently the Arbitration policy indicates recusals should occur for members who have conflicts of interest, but this policy is vague and essentially unenforceable and leaves it to the member with the conflict of interest to do so voluntarily. This policy is in severe need of stronger definition and clarification, or else it will remain essentially meaningless. Specifically:
The policy should also specifically address motions for recusal, indicating that persons requesting recusal need to specifically identify which of these grounds is being used and cite diffs, as well as an enforcement mechanism if the member does not voluntarily recuse himself despite evidence. Rangerdude 23:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Thryduulf - Thanks for your suggestions. Something along the lines of what you propose would be a great improvement on the present state of things, and I'd happily support them. I'd add one more bullet point:
That would give us a recusal policy something along the lines of the following. Rangerdude 05:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Proposed Policy Arbcom members should recuse themselves from a case in the event of a conflict of interest involving one or more of the parties to the case. Some conflicts of interest in which an Arbcom member should recuse include if:
Above all Arbcom members should use common sense and decide whether their involvement affects the ability of all parties to receive a fair and unbiased hearing. When there is doubt, Arbcom members should err on the side of recusal.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or changes? Rangerdude 05:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The User:Ted Wilkes instance was not obviously a "personal dispute". The only discussions I see between them relate to arbitration matters. Please provide diffs if you see something else. Regarding Sliverback, it appears as if he picked a fight with Kelly Martin. In neither instance did other members of the ArbCom call for their recusal, nor did all the parties. So all we have are claims by one side of these conflicts. That leaves only the first cause in your list of reasons to recuse. That reason seems so broad that it would restrict the ability of ArbCom members to particiapte in the enforcement of ArbCom decisions. In practice, their involvement has been helpful, particularly when it comes to clarifying the decision or its parameters. Also, it is not clear that in these cases the ultimate disposition would have been any different. In the Silverback case, Martin did not frame the decisions, and her votes mirror those of the rest of the ArbCom. So it is not clear that her participation had any effect on the outcome. The purpose of the ArbCom is not to provide a legal courtroom, it is to deal with editors who disrupt the project. - Willmcw 20:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
It is bad policy to have situations such have recently occured, where most of the arbiters should have recused, and yet they did not. It is no "wikilawyering" to ask to be reviewed by a neutral party. Have things gone that far wrong? Sam Spade 03:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Both the Silverback and the Wilkes cases seem to me clear cases of trolling for recusals. Should an editor go out of their way to piss off members of the arbcom, they ought not be shielded from the consequences of that. Otherwise, it would be far too easy to select the more hardline arbitrators and serially piss them off to obtain a more favorable committee. Phil Sandifer 04:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
See Wikipedia:Arbitration policy
Bravo for coming up with a clear and fair policy (not that I had doubts you would). I am sure we could quibble all day long on minor issues, but the core of it is, I believe the policies here are fair and will result in fair arbitration. Whether or not it is "optimal" is not the point (I say this in an attempt to forestall an interminal argument here over the minutiae of the policy) -- it is good, and that's what I want. Thank you. Jwrosenzweig 00:32, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Instead of the word "trial", perhaps a better term would be "hearing"? The first word implies that law is being meted out, while the second does not imply that, & is less formal or intimidating. After all, the worst the Arbitration Committee can is ban someone from Wikipedia, not to deprive that person of life, liberty or property. -- llywrch 03:18, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Generally, I think the policy looks good, but the last provision under "Who takes part" bothers me. I recognize that if arbitrators are to act as a panel, it's better that at least a majority of the panel participate. But if a majority is subject to recusal, it doesn't feel right to ignore that and proceed as if there weren't any issues about the potential fairness of the arbitrators. Especially if most of the potential recusals fall "on one side" of the dispute. A decision by a panel that should have recused itself could be viewed as highly unjust. Rather, since I think such a scenario would be very unusual, the solution could be to consult with Jimbo before proceeding, and perhaps allow substitute arbitrators for the occasion. -- Michael Snow 22:57, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've removed that point, and replaced it with "Arbitrators will not be required to recuse themselves for trivial reasons - merely reverting an edit of a user in arbitration, for example, will likely not be seen as a serious enough conflict of interest to make recusal necessary." Does that seem OK? We can fiddle with it some more if not. -- Camembert
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote "let us invest the Mediation Committee with an explicit power of binding referral to the Arbitration Committee".
Cross-posted to the mailing list: I completely agree with Cimon. If participants in mediation have followed all the steps of the dispute resolution process, mediation has failed, and the mediation committee recommends arbitration, is there any reason the arbitrators still need to vote on whether to accept the case? Can they not trust the mediation committee to make these referrals?
The necessity to go through the additional stage of voting on acceptance of cases seems a waste of time if the mediators have already decided that arbitration is the best route for the person they are referring. I'm not saying they can't veto the referral if they really think that's best, but couldn't the default be acceptance of cases we refer to them rather than the insistence of a vote every time? Angela . 14:07, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
What do you suggest we do when a conflict is not fixed by mediation (or rejected by mediators) and rejected by arbitration ? Do we then refer to Jimbo ? Do we individually fix it ? Do we set another committee to do so ? Are do we just try to forget about it ? FirmLittleFluffyThing
I like all of it, a job very well done! My questions are relating to how new arbitrators would be chosen, how they would step down, and when such circumstances would occur. Would the number of arbitrators stay constant? Also, another side issue (and vitally important one I'd say!) is when will ee have an arbitration commitee for article content disputes? There are many situations where reasonable people disagree, and the present arbitration commitee seems geared entirely towards the unreasonable amongst us ;) Anyhow, thank you for your integrity, and keep up the good work! Cheers, Sam Spade 19:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I wish to call for a purge of the arbitration committee. All active members have demonstrated partiality, and three in particular have been so derelict that nothing short of their immediate expulsion or resignation would be acceptable.
Before I take the trouble to spell out the charges, however, I would like to be told where such complaints should be filed. Shorne 19:54, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It seems that the ArbComm is moving towards a general practice of imposing temporary injunctions (which expire once the ArbComm comes to a final decision on the arbitration matter) against *both* the complainant and the respondent banning both of them from editing certain articles. Such a policy, to my mind, a) will have the effect of discouraging complainants from coming forward in the first place - why make a complaint if you will effectively be punished for doing so b) is at odds with judicial and quasi-judicial practice at least in the Anglo-Saxon and American derived legal systems which most editors on the English language wikipedia are accustomed to c) may have the effect of "blaming the victim" or at least punishing him or her. I would propose that either a) such deliberation related injunctions against the complainant not be permitted under ArbComm policy or b) at the very least they be as narrow as possible ie only relating to article(s) in which the parties involved in the complaint have actually been in conflict or which are *very* closely related. I brought an ArbComm complaint against another editor for personal attacks. Without any finding of fact I am now facing a temporary injunction from editing any and all articles related to a) flags b) facsism and c) Canada (there are hundreds - maybe thousands of "Canada"-related articles) despite the fact that the only sites of dispute (indeed the only articles that the complainant edits) are those related to flags. This strikes me as unjust and I am considering withdrawing my request for arbitration as a result. (see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ArmchairVexillologistDon/Proposed decision AndyL 13:51, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The current Arbitration archives looks like it is mostly organized for the benefit and convenience of the Arbitrators. Having dug through those archives so that I could get a better idea of how the Arbitration Committee makes their decisions, and what those decisions might be, I know that it is a tough slog through the archives. It would be great to have some sort of more organized summary of the Arbitration decisions. Creating this summary would be a great way for a couple of the Members Advocates (such as User:Imaglang) to become more familiar with the Arbitration Committee's decisions. It would be nice if the decisions were grouped by the type of decision, and then some sort of template created so that each dispute could be easy understood, with links to the Dispute, Talk, Evidence, and Proposed decision pages, rather than the much condensed format that the Arbitration archives uses. I am also going to put a copy of this suggestion on the talk page for the Assoc. of Members' Advocates. gK ¿? 10:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Considering the degree to which the arbcom still has problems with semi-active members and members who never vote on a case, and considering that the committee is slowing to the glacial pace so unfondly remembered by people from five months ago, I'd like to suggest two possible fixes.
First, that the default position of all arbitrators be assumed as "recuse." That is, until an arbitrator explicitly accepts a case, they are assumed to be recused from that case. If an arbitrator does not vote on a finding or proposal, whether in favor, opposed, or "Neutral - still thinking about it" for, say, a week, assume they're recusing from that specific finding (Which I think should be allowed). This should help keep the necessary majorities to a level consistent with the number of actual arbitrators we have.
Second, that the committee be expanded by 4-8 members. Ideally, this expansion would take place either in parallel with the first idea, or with an explicit note that a vote of 7 arbitrators will always be enough to pass something. The point of these members would be to keep the committee with a functional number of people on every case - not to just increase the number of people who go AWOL.
Otherwise, I have to say, I'm extremely worried about the fact that the committee is so narrowly functional, particularly as the infusion of new blood didn't seem to lead to any sort of lasting solution. Snowspinner 16:30, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've been involved in two recent cases where the issue of Arbcom member recusal has been a problem. Currently the Arbitration policy indicates recusals should occur for members who have conflicts of interest, but this policy is vague and essentially unenforceable and leaves it to the member with the conflict of interest to do so voluntarily. This policy is in severe need of stronger definition and clarification, or else it will remain essentially meaningless. Specifically:
The policy should also specifically address motions for recusal, indicating that persons requesting recusal need to specifically identify which of these grounds is being used and cite diffs, as well as an enforcement mechanism if the member does not voluntarily recuse himself despite evidence. Rangerdude 23:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Thryduulf - Thanks for your suggestions. Something along the lines of what you propose would be a great improvement on the present state of things, and I'd happily support them. I'd add one more bullet point:
That would give us a recusal policy something along the lines of the following. Rangerdude 05:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Proposed Policy Arbcom members should recuse themselves from a case in the event of a conflict of interest involving one or more of the parties to the case. Some conflicts of interest in which an Arbcom member should recuse include if:
Above all Arbcom members should use common sense and decide whether their involvement affects the ability of all parties to receive a fair and unbiased hearing. When there is doubt, Arbcom members should err on the side of recusal.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or changes? Rangerdude 05:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
The User:Ted Wilkes instance was not obviously a "personal dispute". The only discussions I see between them relate to arbitration matters. Please provide diffs if you see something else. Regarding Sliverback, it appears as if he picked a fight with Kelly Martin. In neither instance did other members of the ArbCom call for their recusal, nor did all the parties. So all we have are claims by one side of these conflicts. That leaves only the first cause in your list of reasons to recuse. That reason seems so broad that it would restrict the ability of ArbCom members to particiapte in the enforcement of ArbCom decisions. In practice, their involvement has been helpful, particularly when it comes to clarifying the decision or its parameters. Also, it is not clear that in these cases the ultimate disposition would have been any different. In the Silverback case, Martin did not frame the decisions, and her votes mirror those of the rest of the ArbCom. So it is not clear that her participation had any effect on the outcome. The purpose of the ArbCom is not to provide a legal courtroom, it is to deal with editors who disrupt the project. - Willmcw 20:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
It is bad policy to have situations such have recently occured, where most of the arbiters should have recused, and yet they did not. It is no "wikilawyering" to ask to be reviewed by a neutral party. Have things gone that far wrong? Sam Spade 03:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Both the Silverback and the Wilkes cases seem to me clear cases of trolling for recusals. Should an editor go out of their way to piss off members of the arbcom, they ought not be shielded from the consequences of that. Otherwise, it would be far too easy to select the more hardline arbitrators and serially piss them off to obtain a more favorable committee. Phil Sandifer 04:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)