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Henry Macandrew
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- Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk)
Henry Macandrew ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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One of the most successful cavalry commanders of the First World War, Sir Henry Macandrew would probably be more widely known if he hadn't accidentally killed himself in a petrol/pyjama-related explosion a year after the war ended. A career officer of the Indian Army, he saw service in several campaigns and the Boer War prior to the FWW. A follower of Haig, he saw quick advancement once the war began, initially on the Western Front and then in the Middle East where he made his largest impact in command of a cavalry division of the Desert Mounted Corps. This is one of my first largescale dabbles into FWW content and I would appreciate any and all comments. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 15:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Support from Hawkeye7
I had heard of Macandrew, as commander of a division in Chauvel's Desert Mounted Corps, but knew nothing more about him. His death reminds me of Brigadier General John Royston, who was invalided out of the service after deliberately inhaling poison gas. Another chapter in the great deeds of the British cavalry. Looks good; some comments to prove I read it:
- Is "The Inverness College"
Inverness Royal Academy?
- I don't think so. Going by the the school's website it has been called the Inverness Royal Academy since 1793.
- "Macandrew's position as a brigadier-general was a temporary rank, and he was still a substantive lieutenant-colonel" Well yes, but for some weird reason, all brigadier-general appointees were temporary.
- Possibly a left-over from the older appointment of brigadier-general, from which the holder would revert when no longer commanding a brigade? Am aware this was how it worked in the Napoleonic Wars, at least
- Commas annoyed me, so I made some changes. Also corrected two typos. (
[1]) Revert anything you disagree with.
- All good, thank you for the edits
- "Macandrew's commander, Lieutenant-General
Harry Chauvel" should be Sir Harry Chauvel
- Oops! Corrected.
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ Hawkeye7: Thanks for correcting those spelling errors that slipped through the cracks. I've responded above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 20:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
- "before in 1916 he assumed command of the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division" seems a little clumsy. Maybe 'before he assumed command of the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division in 1916'?
- Done.
- "Battle of the Somme and Battle of Cambrai." Is there a consensus among RSs to have those upper-case B's?
- Sources vary but I think the majority are with the upper case here.
- Infobox, rank: Why the upper case G?
- Changed.
- "Macandrew was educated at The Inverness College". See MOS:INSTITUTIONS: "The word the at the start of a name is uncapitalized in running text, regardless of the institution's own usage".
- Changed.
- "he was assigned as the Deputy Assistant Adjutant-General Intelligence (DAAGI)" and "as DAAGI Army Headquarters Staff in May." Why the upper-case initial letters?
- Likewise: "was appointed a Station Staff Officer, 1st Class"; "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General"; "as a General Staff Officer Grade 1"; "as his Brigadier-General General Staff (BGGS). I shall stop, but a trawl through the rest of the article seems in order.
- My sketchy understanding of MOS:OFFICE led me to this. I'd be happy to be directed otherwise if I've understood it wrongly?
-
MOS:OFFICE is what you want. If discussing an office (or rank or title) in general terms it is given in lower case, as you do with "He was instead appointed brigade major" or "Macandrew was subsequently promoted to lieutenant-colonel". And as you should with "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General" or "He brought Macandrew with him as his Brigadier-General General Staff". If an office is, to quote the MoS, "followed by a person's name to form a title" it takes an upper-case initial(s); eg "replacing Major-General William Walker". Does that work for you? I could just about grit my teeth and let this go at ACR - "does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant". But if this is aimed at FAC it may be as well to make it MoS compliant now.
- Always happy to receive constructive criticism! Have changed all those I could identify.
-
MOS:OFFICE is what you want. If discussing an office (or rank or title) in general terms it is given in lower case, as you do with "He was instead appointed brigade major" or "Macandrew was subsequently promoted to lieutenant-colonel". And as you should with "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General" or "He brought Macandrew with him as his Brigadier-General General Staff". If an office is, to quote the MoS, "followed by a person's name to form a title" it takes an upper-case initial(s); eg "replacing Major-General William Walker". Does that work for you? I could just about grit my teeth and let this go at ACR - "does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant". But if this is aimed at FAC it may be as well to make it MoS compliant now.
- "Macandrew was promoted to substantive major-general on 1 January 1917". Just checking, this was directly from brevet colonel?
- If we ignore the various temporary ranks, yes.
- "with Haig singling out an action of Macandrew's division". Singling it out for what?
- Reworded.
- "In many cases the infantry had not pushed back the German defenders as expected and the cavalry were too cumbersome to react to new weaknesses in the enemy lines." Optional for ACR, but this could be phrased more felicitously.
- Reworded.
- "impacted by the failure at Cambrai". Impacted seems an odd word, perhaps 'influenced'?
- Done.
- "As such, in the same month, Macandrew travelled to Palestine with the Indian portion of his division and the 1st Indian Cavalry Division, which had since been renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... In an attempt to continue the legacy of the Indian cavalry from the Western Front, on 23 July the two divisions were respectively renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." I assume that the 4th cavalry wasn't renamed twice.
- The renaming referred to here is from "1st Mounted Division".
- No, I am still confused - this happens regularly. You have "renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." Either two separate divisions were renamed 4th Cavalry Division, or you are repeating the same information, or the prose has befuddled me.
- I'm not too sure how this could be reworded. 1st Indian Cavalry Division becomes 4th Cavalry Division. 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions are moved to Palestine, where their troops are used to create the 1st and 2nd Mounted Divisions. These two divisions are then renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions. The earlier 4th/5th do not have the same unit composition as the later 4th/5th.
- No, I am still confused - this happens regularly. You have "renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." Either two separate divisions were renamed 4th Cavalry Division, or you are repeating the same information, or the prose has befuddled me.
- Should the last two paragraphs of Divisional reforms not be in Palestine campaign?
- Moved.
- "The three Indian regiments killed around ninety Turkish soldiers and took a further ninety-one prisoner." Are the Indian casualties known?
- Added, although the source doesn't differentiate wounded and killed.
- Is there a link to Second Battle of Amman? If not, perhaps there should be. Likewise Battle of Megiddo (1918).
- I'm not sure why Amman would be relevant? Added Megiddo, although the Sharon article covers most of it. Our articles for this campaign are very intertwined!
- "the rate of the attack was increased". What does this mean?
- Changed to "rate of the advance"
- It may just be me, but I find the repeated references to "Macandrew's division" jarring. Other formations are referred to by their names.
- Removed a clump of these.
- Any chance of giving a reader an idea of the strength and make up of a cavalry brigade and division?
- Added a detail for the number of regiments in a brigade, I think the number of brigades in a division is covered.
- I meant tell a reader the number of men in a cavalry brigade and division. Eg, in 1914 a British cavalry division had an establishment of 9,269 men, 24 guns, and 24 machine guns. Is similar information available for the formations Macandrew commanded?
- I think I could provide some general statistics for the size of cavalry units, but I'm not sure these would be very useful, as the actual numbers fluctuated drastically. See for example the size of the 15th (Imperial Service) Cavalry Brigade, which fought at Haritan with a total of 500 men despite our (GA) article stating the nominal size was 1,700.
- 'Twas ever thus in war. I think it would be helpful to give the establishments. If necessary note when formations were greatly under strength (as you do at one point), or give their actual numbers for particular engagements. I think it would be very useful to give a reader some sense of scale. Otherwise they will have little idea of the level of Macandrew's responsibility. Even a knowledgeable reader may be aware that in WWI full-strength infantry divisions varied from <8,000 to >28,000; or that in 1914 British, French and German cavalry divisions had 9,300, 4,500 and 5,200 men.
- I meant tell a reader the number of men in a cavalry brigade and division. Eg, in 1914 a British cavalry division had an establishment of 9,269 men, 24 guns, and 24 machine guns. Is similar information available for the formations Macandrew commanded?
- File:Palestine-WW1-3.jpg may be a helpful addition. As may File:FallsSkMap41toAleppo.jpeg.
- Added the former.
- "He sent his armoured cars forward first, leaving Homs the same day. I am unclear about this. Do you mean that the armoured cars left on 20 October, the same day Chauvel told them to halt?
- Correct
- "a force of Ottoman soldiers that outnumbered them, with around 3,400 men". How many men did the 15th Brigade have?
- Added. They were very outnumbered!
- Cite 46: what does "p. supp." mean?
- Awkward I know. Basically there's a supplement stuck on the end of the Army List in which the page numbers start afresh.
- Then I think it needs listing separately, as you would if there were separate chapters, each contributed by a different author. What do you think of how I have tweaked it?
- That's much better, thank you.
- Then I think it needs listing separately, as you would if there were separate chapters, each contributed by a different author. What do you think of how I have tweaked it?
A splendid article. Get it to FAC. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Gog the Mild: Hi, thank you for taking a look! I have responded above.
Pickersgill-Cunliffe (
talk) 16:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of comebacks.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- @ Gog the Mild: Have responded. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 14:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of comebacks.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
« Return to A-Class review list
Henry Macandrew
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
- Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk)
Henry Macandrew ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
One of the most successful cavalry commanders of the First World War, Sir Henry Macandrew would probably be more widely known if he hadn't accidentally killed himself in a petrol/pyjama-related explosion a year after the war ended. A career officer of the Indian Army, he saw service in several campaigns and the Boer War prior to the FWW. A follower of Haig, he saw quick advancement once the war began, initially on the Western Front and then in the Middle East where he made his largest impact in command of a cavalry division of the Desert Mounted Corps. This is one of my first largescale dabbles into FWW content and I would appreciate any and all comments. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 15:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Support from Hawkeye7
I had heard of Macandrew, as commander of a division in Chauvel's Desert Mounted Corps, but knew nothing more about him. His death reminds me of Brigadier General John Royston, who was invalided out of the service after deliberately inhaling poison gas. Another chapter in the great deeds of the British cavalry. Looks good; some comments to prove I read it:
- Is "The Inverness College"
Inverness Royal Academy?
- I don't think so. Going by the the school's website it has been called the Inverness Royal Academy since 1793.
- "Macandrew's position as a brigadier-general was a temporary rank, and he was still a substantive lieutenant-colonel" Well yes, but for some weird reason, all brigadier-general appointees were temporary.
- Possibly a left-over from the older appointment of brigadier-general, from which the holder would revert when no longer commanding a brigade? Am aware this was how it worked in the Napoleonic Wars, at least
- Commas annoyed me, so I made some changes. Also corrected two typos. (
[1]) Revert anything you disagree with.
- All good, thank you for the edits
- "Macandrew's commander, Lieutenant-General
Harry Chauvel" should be Sir Harry Chauvel
- Oops! Corrected.
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ Hawkeye7: Thanks for correcting those spelling errors that slipped through the cracks. I've responded above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 20:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
- "before in 1916 he assumed command of the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division" seems a little clumsy. Maybe 'before he assumed command of the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division in 1916'?
- Done.
- "Battle of the Somme and Battle of Cambrai." Is there a consensus among RSs to have those upper-case B's?
- Sources vary but I think the majority are with the upper case here.
- Infobox, rank: Why the upper case G?
- Changed.
- "Macandrew was educated at The Inverness College". See MOS:INSTITUTIONS: "The word the at the start of a name is uncapitalized in running text, regardless of the institution's own usage".
- Changed.
- "he was assigned as the Deputy Assistant Adjutant-General Intelligence (DAAGI)" and "as DAAGI Army Headquarters Staff in May." Why the upper-case initial letters?
- Likewise: "was appointed a Station Staff Officer, 1st Class"; "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General"; "as a General Staff Officer Grade 1"; "as his Brigadier-General General Staff (BGGS). I shall stop, but a trawl through the rest of the article seems in order.
- My sketchy understanding of MOS:OFFICE led me to this. I'd be happy to be directed otherwise if I've understood it wrongly?
-
MOS:OFFICE is what you want. If discussing an office (or rank or title) in general terms it is given in lower case, as you do with "He was instead appointed brigade major" or "Macandrew was subsequently promoted to lieutenant-colonel". And as you should with "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General" or "He brought Macandrew with him as his Brigadier-General General Staff". If an office is, to quote the MoS, "followed by a person's name to form a title" it takes an upper-case initial(s); eg "replacing Major-General William Walker". Does that work for you? I could just about grit my teeth and let this go at ACR - "does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant". But if this is aimed at FAC it may be as well to make it MoS compliant now.
- Always happy to receive constructive criticism! Have changed all those I could identify.
-
MOS:OFFICE is what you want. If discussing an office (or rank or title) in general terms it is given in lower case, as you do with "He was instead appointed brigade major" or "Macandrew was subsequently promoted to lieutenant-colonel". And as you should with "becoming a Deputy Assistant Quartermaster-General" or "He brought Macandrew with him as his Brigadier-General General Staff". If an office is, to quote the MoS, "followed by a person's name to form a title" it takes an upper-case initial(s); eg "replacing Major-General William Walker". Does that work for you? I could just about grit my teeth and let this go at ACR - "does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant". But if this is aimed at FAC it may be as well to make it MoS compliant now.
- "Macandrew was promoted to substantive major-general on 1 January 1917". Just checking, this was directly from brevet colonel?
- If we ignore the various temporary ranks, yes.
- "with Haig singling out an action of Macandrew's division". Singling it out for what?
- Reworded.
- "In many cases the infantry had not pushed back the German defenders as expected and the cavalry were too cumbersome to react to new weaknesses in the enemy lines." Optional for ACR, but this could be phrased more felicitously.
- Reworded.
- "impacted by the failure at Cambrai". Impacted seems an odd word, perhaps 'influenced'?
- Done.
- "As such, in the same month, Macandrew travelled to Palestine with the Indian portion of his division and the 1st Indian Cavalry Division, which had since been renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... In an attempt to continue the legacy of the Indian cavalry from the Western Front, on 23 July the two divisions were respectively renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." I assume that the 4th cavalry wasn't renamed twice.
- The renaming referred to here is from "1st Mounted Division".
- No, I am still confused - this happens regularly. You have "renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." Either two separate divisions were renamed 4th Cavalry Division, or you are repeating the same information, or the prose has befuddled me.
- I'm not too sure how this could be reworded. 1st Indian Cavalry Division becomes 4th Cavalry Division. 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions are moved to Palestine, where their troops are used to create the 1st and 2nd Mounted Divisions. These two divisions are then renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions. The earlier 4th/5th do not have the same unit composition as the later 4th/5th.
- No, I am still confused - this happens regularly. You have "renamed 4th Cavalry Division ... renamed the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions." Either two separate divisions were renamed 4th Cavalry Division, or you are repeating the same information, or the prose has befuddled me.
- Should the last two paragraphs of Divisional reforms not be in Palestine campaign?
- Moved.
- "The three Indian regiments killed around ninety Turkish soldiers and took a further ninety-one prisoner." Are the Indian casualties known?
- Added, although the source doesn't differentiate wounded and killed.
- Is there a link to Second Battle of Amman? If not, perhaps there should be. Likewise Battle of Megiddo (1918).
- I'm not sure why Amman would be relevant? Added Megiddo, although the Sharon article covers most of it. Our articles for this campaign are very intertwined!
- "the rate of the attack was increased". What does this mean?
- Changed to "rate of the advance"
- It may just be me, but I find the repeated references to "Macandrew's division" jarring. Other formations are referred to by their names.
- Removed a clump of these.
- Any chance of giving a reader an idea of the strength and make up of a cavalry brigade and division?
- Added a detail for the number of regiments in a brigade, I think the number of brigades in a division is covered.
- I meant tell a reader the number of men in a cavalry brigade and division. Eg, in 1914 a British cavalry division had an establishment of 9,269 men, 24 guns, and 24 machine guns. Is similar information available for the formations Macandrew commanded?
- I think I could provide some general statistics for the size of cavalry units, but I'm not sure these would be very useful, as the actual numbers fluctuated drastically. See for example the size of the 15th (Imperial Service) Cavalry Brigade, which fought at Haritan with a total of 500 men despite our (GA) article stating the nominal size was 1,700.
- 'Twas ever thus in war. I think it would be helpful to give the establishments. If necessary note when formations were greatly under strength (as you do at one point), or give their actual numbers for particular engagements. I think it would be very useful to give a reader some sense of scale. Otherwise they will have little idea of the level of Macandrew's responsibility. Even a knowledgeable reader may be aware that in WWI full-strength infantry divisions varied from <8,000 to >28,000; or that in 1914 British, French and German cavalry divisions had 9,300, 4,500 and 5,200 men.
- I meant tell a reader the number of men in a cavalry brigade and division. Eg, in 1914 a British cavalry division had an establishment of 9,269 men, 24 guns, and 24 machine guns. Is similar information available for the formations Macandrew commanded?
- File:Palestine-WW1-3.jpg may be a helpful addition. As may File:FallsSkMap41toAleppo.jpeg.
- Added the former.
- "He sent his armoured cars forward first, leaving Homs the same day. I am unclear about this. Do you mean that the armoured cars left on 20 October, the same day Chauvel told them to halt?
- Correct
- "a force of Ottoman soldiers that outnumbered them, with around 3,400 men". How many men did the 15th Brigade have?
- Added. They were very outnumbered!
- Cite 46: what does "p. supp." mean?
- Awkward I know. Basically there's a supplement stuck on the end of the Army List in which the page numbers start afresh.
- Then I think it needs listing separately, as you would if there were separate chapters, each contributed by a different author. What do you think of how I have tweaked it?
- That's much better, thank you.
- Then I think it needs listing separately, as you would if there were separate chapters, each contributed by a different author. What do you think of how I have tweaked it?
A splendid article. Get it to FAC. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- @
Gog the Mild: Hi, thank you for taking a look! I have responded above.
Pickersgill-Cunliffe (
talk) 16:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of comebacks.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- @ Gog the Mild: Have responded. Pickersgill-Cunliffe ( talk) 14:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of comebacks.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)