This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was ambiguous.
This thread was made more difficult than normal to sort out by the movement of comments and the multiplication of relevant discussions on several different talk pages. I think I finally found all the relevant facts and comments. Taken together:
I count 12 clear "delete" votes in this discussion, 7 "keep as is" votes (but four of them have to be discounted as anonymous or very new users), 2 explicit "keep only if rewritten", 1 "abstain" and 1 that was too ambiguous to call. In addition, 4 users took the time to separately endorse the "Sandbox" version.
My own investigation is confirming the original allegation that the theory remains "original research" at this time. It has not met Wikipedia's standard of verified external sourcing. A great number of web-based links were provided and were dutifully researched by several Wikipedians. The results were ambiguous at best. Two of the people who reviewed the links concluded that they actually worked against the author's claims.
The original author has already expressed his dissatisfaction with the Sandbox version and has created a Sandbox2 version. This makes it seem less likely that it will be possible to keep a balanced and neutral article on this topic. My conclusion here is tempered by the author's behavior during this discussion. While diligent in the defense of his article, he has remained polite and fact-based. The dispute is only an interpretation of Wikipedia policy on the standards for inclusion of an article topic.
I am going to call this one as a "delete" as original research. The article in full probably should not be re-created until it the theory has been independently published in accordance with the "no original research" guidelines or until it has reached a level of notoriety equivalent to some of the other pseudo-science theories mentioned below.
After deletion, I am going to move the sandbox version to the main article space. Noting the controversy, however, I am going to immediately tag it as a procedural nomination to VfD so that a separate discussion and decision can be made on that version. Rossami (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC) reply
and derivatives Harmonics Theory Calculations, Harmonics Theory Music, Harmonics Theory common cycles, Harmonics Theory Non-linearity, Harmonics Theory Redshift Periodicity, Harmonics Theory Particle
See discussion on its talk page. This is an article by User:RayTomes about an unpublished theory created by Ray Tomes, with references to ray.tomes.biz, and controversional claims answered with "I, Ray Tomes, say so." Some users have been trying to fix it, but I think allowing such transparent original research as this would undermine the policy. Delete Gazpacho 05:51, 18 May 2005 (UTC) reply
The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication;' The people that are putting this have been badly informed by Gazpacho. He makes a statement that is totally untrue without first checking the facts. I think that all these votes (based on original research) should be discounted. I have published papers on harmonics theory with the Foundations for the Study of Cycles conference proceedings and from a conference proceedings run jointly with University (Nevada?) and Apeiron journal. These are all reputable organisations. Ray Tomes 03:19, 21 May 2005 (UTC) reply
I am inserting the deleted votes here. I have retained a little text with each. It is unreasonable to have reasons by delete votes and not by keep votes. Allow us at least a voice please. I note also that Radiance removed three keep votes and voted delete. This might have been an accident as his removal of large text was reasonable action. However one would be excussed for being very suspicious. Ray Tomes 04:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC) reply
Keep. User:PRF Brown The Harmonics Theory has its place in an encyclopaedic work of this nature. Mathematically, it is supported by the theory associated with the number of ordered factorizations of natural numbers. See specifically the Integer "core" sequence number A074206. Here is an independent page which provides a structural environment for the HT: - http://www.mountainman.com.au/harmonics.htm - Additionally, I have independently confirmed some of the - computational analysis upon which the exposition of the - HT rests, and the results of this independent computational - analysis is here: - http://www.mountainman.com.au/harmonics_01.htm
Keep. ...discussion moved to talk pages Ray Tomes 08:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC) reply
This is my rambling few cents worth on why i think the article deserves to be kept, but should be cleaned up to have the more speculative areas removed. Haselhurst 10:03, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Keep - it works well in partly explaining how the universe works. Ric Ingram www.traderscalm.com
-- Dcfleck 13:27, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
Keep: No theory is ever complete. The expectations of too many is that theories need somehow to be legit before they should have space in the public domain. Nothing could be further from the truth. Peer review journals have been proven to not perform in the publics interest. They along with their organizations get caught in the rightness of their dogma and let nothing challenging in. It takes a revolution to displace them. In the meantime it takes spaces like this to communicate ideas toward individuals of different minds to come up with concepts to replace wholesale the prison yards of dogma. It is unlikely that any single subject will make the difference. But what will make the difference is someone that just happens to wander inside this space and with a few other ideas makes a whole new idea of the ages. That will not happen if you take that opportunity away from them. Doing so is almost always a bad idea. Why take the chance? James Conway May 29 2005.
If mountainman says something is true, it's true.
This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was ambiguous.
This thread was made more difficult than normal to sort out by the movement of comments and the multiplication of relevant discussions on several different talk pages. I think I finally found all the relevant facts and comments. Taken together:
I count 12 clear "delete" votes in this discussion, 7 "keep as is" votes (but four of them have to be discounted as anonymous or very new users), 2 explicit "keep only if rewritten", 1 "abstain" and 1 that was too ambiguous to call. In addition, 4 users took the time to separately endorse the "Sandbox" version.
My own investigation is confirming the original allegation that the theory remains "original research" at this time. It has not met Wikipedia's standard of verified external sourcing. A great number of web-based links were provided and were dutifully researched by several Wikipedians. The results were ambiguous at best. Two of the people who reviewed the links concluded that they actually worked against the author's claims.
The original author has already expressed his dissatisfaction with the Sandbox version and has created a Sandbox2 version. This makes it seem less likely that it will be possible to keep a balanced and neutral article on this topic. My conclusion here is tempered by the author's behavior during this discussion. While diligent in the defense of his article, he has remained polite and fact-based. The dispute is only an interpretation of Wikipedia policy on the standards for inclusion of an article topic.
I am going to call this one as a "delete" as original research. The article in full probably should not be re-created until it the theory has been independently published in accordance with the "no original research" guidelines or until it has reached a level of notoriety equivalent to some of the other pseudo-science theories mentioned below.
After deletion, I am going to move the sandbox version to the main article space. Noting the controversy, however, I am going to immediately tag it as a procedural nomination to VfD so that a separate discussion and decision can be made on that version. Rossami (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC) reply
and derivatives Harmonics Theory Calculations, Harmonics Theory Music, Harmonics Theory common cycles, Harmonics Theory Non-linearity, Harmonics Theory Redshift Periodicity, Harmonics Theory Particle
See discussion on its talk page. This is an article by User:RayTomes about an unpublished theory created by Ray Tomes, with references to ray.tomes.biz, and controversional claims answered with "I, Ray Tomes, say so." Some users have been trying to fix it, but I think allowing such transparent original research as this would undermine the policy. Delete Gazpacho 05:51, 18 May 2005 (UTC) reply
The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication;' The people that are putting this have been badly informed by Gazpacho. He makes a statement that is totally untrue without first checking the facts. I think that all these votes (based on original research) should be discounted. I have published papers on harmonics theory with the Foundations for the Study of Cycles conference proceedings and from a conference proceedings run jointly with University (Nevada?) and Apeiron journal. These are all reputable organisations. Ray Tomes 03:19, 21 May 2005 (UTC) reply
I am inserting the deleted votes here. I have retained a little text with each. It is unreasonable to have reasons by delete votes and not by keep votes. Allow us at least a voice please. I note also that Radiance removed three keep votes and voted delete. This might have been an accident as his removal of large text was reasonable action. However one would be excussed for being very suspicious. Ray Tomes 04:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC) reply
Keep. User:PRF Brown The Harmonics Theory has its place in an encyclopaedic work of this nature. Mathematically, it is supported by the theory associated with the number of ordered factorizations of natural numbers. See specifically the Integer "core" sequence number A074206. Here is an independent page which provides a structural environment for the HT: - http://www.mountainman.com.au/harmonics.htm - Additionally, I have independently confirmed some of the - computational analysis upon which the exposition of the - HT rests, and the results of this independent computational - analysis is here: - http://www.mountainman.com.au/harmonics_01.htm
Keep. ...discussion moved to talk pages Ray Tomes 08:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC) reply
This is my rambling few cents worth on why i think the article deserves to be kept, but should be cleaned up to have the more speculative areas removed. Haselhurst 10:03, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Keep - it works well in partly explaining how the universe works. Ric Ingram www.traderscalm.com
-- Dcfleck 13:27, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
Keep: No theory is ever complete. The expectations of too many is that theories need somehow to be legit before they should have space in the public domain. Nothing could be further from the truth. Peer review journals have been proven to not perform in the publics interest. They along with their organizations get caught in the rightness of their dogma and let nothing challenging in. It takes a revolution to displace them. In the meantime it takes spaces like this to communicate ideas toward individuals of different minds to come up with concepts to replace wholesale the prison yards of dogma. It is unlikely that any single subject will make the difference. But what will make the difference is someone that just happens to wander inside this space and with a few other ideas makes a whole new idea of the ages. That will not happen if you take that opportunity away from them. Doing so is almost always a bad idea. Why take the chance? James Conway May 29 2005.
If mountainman says something is true, it's true.