In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 13:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC).
TDC has been sanctioned four times in the past month for 3RR infractions and repeated 24-hour bans appear to have no effect on his behaviour, save to increase his self-admitted and transparent efforts to "game" the system by disguising his reverts.
This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections should not edit here.
TDC has been contributing to Wikipedia for at least a year. In an environment in which many people have strong opinions, TDC stands out as an tenacious POV warrior, more interested in slanting texts to suit his particular political ideology than in building good articles. For him, the collaborative editing process serves as a weapon rather than as a matter of facilitation. It is virtually impossible to find an edit among his contributions which is not intended to score political points. He frequently gets into edit wars, yet makes minimal effort to enter into dialog and look for compromise on Talk pages. He blatantly tries to game the 3RR rule by disguising reverts as new edits, something he freely admits in edit summaries and on Talk pages. He rarely cites sources for his edits, and when he does the sources often turn out not to say what they claim he does or they turn out to be irrelevant and not mention the subject of his edits at all. (See Talk:Paul Robeson and Talk:Pablo Neruda)
In addition, TDC now appears to be editing some of the same articles over which he has been recently banned with the sockpuppet account User:Dagen. (See: Pablo Neruda, Fidel Castro, W. E. B. DuBois, Earth Day)
Once already an RfC has been compiled on him. It was initially filed on 7 May 2004. See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/TDC
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1. Iraq Liberation Act, 21 March 2005
2. Iraq Liberation Act ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 22 March 2005
Reported by: Christiaan 21:25, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
The diffs appear to be quite different. I noted the edit comments though and will have a look at the actual page. Refdoc 00:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you want to present evidence for a 3RR you should give the diffs which show that the violating user has not actually added anything in. As it is, I have banned User:TDC for one week form editing as this was the second 3RR violation in short succession on the same set of pages. But I also not the anonymous revert which conveniently appeared when "your" turn came. I think you are sailing very close to the wind, USer:Christiaan... Refdoc 00:51, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough, no argument. Refdoc 13:17, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
3. Anti-globalization ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 3 April 2005
4. COINTELPRO ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 19 April 2005
Reported by: Viajero 20:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
Ok now I can this diff shows they are identical despite claims to the contry [1] Geni 22:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
5. Pablo Neruda ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 25 April 2005
6. Fidel Castro ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 18 May 2005
Reported by: Mark 1 06:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(provide diffs and links)
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Hmm …. Where to begin ………
First let me address the allegations made by these two fine upstanding Wikipedians.
I admit that I have violated the 3RR rule several times. Some of these were the acts of a collaborative provocation between two users [31], so I was an idiot to fall into what was a rather transparent and crude attempt to silence me, so sue me. Others, I believe, were clearly the acts of an over zealous Admin. I feel the most recent 24hr ban was unwarranted because I had put new information into the article as well as restoring information that had been blanked. Other instance, there is no excuse and I will freely admit to my error. Simple enough I suppose.
What can I say, when you wave a flag, don’t be surprised when TDC comes charging.
Now let us move on the real reason I am being RfC’s.
For some reason Viajero has a problem with me. Viajero feels that my contributions to Pablo Neruda are not justified. His reasons for this, well that’s anybody’s guess because he has refused to discuss my contributions to the article in the article’s talk page. This is most likely due to the fact that my contributions are entirely factual, supported by credible sources, and presented in as an NOPV was as possible. So naturally he would not want to debate me, he has no legs to stand on.
In short, I am playing with his toys, and he don’t like it.
Now I know that some users are going to say “blah blah blah TDC does not work with others and pushes his POV blah blah blah (unintelligible remark about fascist right wingers)”. First, as I have said before the only POV I push is the truth. If it were up to the individuals who are behind this RfC, Wikipedia would be Commiepedia as evident by “Helpful Daves” drive to collaborate with likeminded users and push some editors off Wikipedia [32]. Secondly I can work with users who I have vast disagreements with, an example: [33].
You see, people like AndyL and 172, as much as I may have disagreed with them, could be reasoned with respected and both parties could walk away from a dispute without any hard feeling.
What we have here now, is a new breed, embodied primarily in Chameleon. The ultimate in POV warriors like me, but unwilling to collaborate, unwilling to respect others, and unable to see that they are wrong. They believe that they can turn Wiki into a might makes right forum; using group action to dilute others they find objectionable.
I think that the recent controversy around [Anti-globalization and Anti-Semitism], the deletion from the main article the VFD of the new one and the continual attempts to re-merge make this point very well.
This is nothing more than a cheap parliamentary trick to get me kicked off and silenced, and I absolutely positively will not fucking stand for it.
What proof do I have? None really, just a hunch, as Chameleon is no longer open about his plans and refuses to discuss anything outside of private and what he demands to be confidential email. What’s he got to hide [34]? I suppose we will never know, seeing as how he is doing his best to cover his tracks in anticipation of his next Admin bid.
Do people take my harsh comments out of context? Most of them are simple jokes, and I will not be held responsible for a lack of a sense of humor. TFB I say. Oh, how dare I, was that rude? Oh well that’s the world in which we live.
No for a side issue that has been bugging me. Some users, whose names will be witheld for the protection of the innocent, have accused me of using sock puppets. I take this allegation very seriously as I feel it is one of the most dishonest acts that can be perpetrated on Wikipedia. Sockpupets skew what would normally be a dynamic debate where editors prevail or fail based on the strength of an argument or on the validity of the process. Seeing as how I believe I have mastered these since starting here over 1 year ago, I find Sockpupets vile and do not condone their use. Since I only edit from 3 locations, all within the Chicago land area (and Fishkill NY on two recent business trips), it should be simple enough to determine if any of these alleged sockpuppets are actually me by running the IP address through geobytes or any IP tracing site.
So, in short, either provide some concrete evidence that I am doing this or kindly STFU. TDC 19:27, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
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I think TDC should be more careful of the 3rr and Wikipedia:Civility policies, and encourage him to contact myself or others when he feels a need for assistance. Sam Spade 16:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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TDC brings a lot to Wikipedia, and I really hope this can be resolved in a way that doesn't involve banning him. He reads a lot of different sources than most Wikipedians, and often adds useful information to articles.
On the other hand, he is a belligerent POV warrior. I first really noticed him over http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/TDC-2&action=edit§ion=9an extremely polemical edit without a summary, a tactic that I can only presume to be intended as stealth. He is rather uncivil (I've endorsed the summary above) and I've never really seen him do any of the basic work of building an article: instead, he's always trying to score political points, slant articles his way, etc.
In the recent case of Neruda, it's hard to see the argument for including a lengthy passage from one of Neruda's (politically and literarily) most embarrassing poems (although I'm entirely in favor of mentioning the existence of the poem, and would have no problem with a line or two being quoted). Neruda is not mainly known for bad polemical poetry, and we do not customarily add this sort of thing to an article (e.g., we do not include an extract of Mirabeau's pornography. Or even Sade's. We do not quote George W. Bush's rambling, ungrammatical sentences at length.)
I wish TDC would show some indication of actually being more interested in building an accurate, useful encyclopedia than in trying to turn it into a soapbox. Or even as interested. Or even willing, if it's not his primary interest. Again, I think he has a lot to bring to the table, but if the price of his presence is that any article that doesn't go exactly his way becomes a battleground, I stop being interested in defending him. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:50, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
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This request for comment should be considered in the context of those bringing the complaint and their motivation for doing so. Without exception, I have discovered each of those endorsing the complaint are very frequently responsible for left or far-left wing agenda pushing within articles. To the extent TDC is fighting this propagandizing he should be congratulated. If you wish for a Wikipedia dominated by leftist propaganda then you will get rid of good editors like TDC. I stumbled on his good quality edits and noticed a systematic destruction of them by several users including most of the above endorsing the complaint against him. Those complaining should have clean hands, the above users do not.
Even worse, I believe the intent of this comment process is to have a chilling effect on TDC's edits and interest in making edits. It is an attempt at censoring an opinion that is not lockstep with the radical left agenda pushed consistently by the complainants. It is most improper in the circumstances. I see no valid complaint made and more to the point I see very real problems with the left wing agenda (usually self-admitted) by the group of editors above who act like a group of raptors descending on an article and leaving a left-wing leaning carcass in their wake.
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16:47, Apr 16, 2005 [38], and now the edit just prior to that [39], compare this to your first edit [40], a complete removal of my work. No discussion, no talk, just a blanket deletion of all my contributions. Now, lets see your next move: [41], another deletion of my contributions in their entirety. And then Gamaliel jumps in, and his first contribution is a blanket RV [42]. In fact the fist attempt by you to discuss this took place after you eliminated my contributions twice. So please don’t play the poor abused editor, you did not want my contributions to stay, regardless of their veracity of them.
I feel compelled to come to TDC's defense here. Jmabel is correct to point out below that he brings a lot to Wikipedia; he does use more-- and a greater variety of-- sources than most Wikipedians working in his area, and he has been adding a wealth of useful information to articles for over a year. I say this despite my disagreement with TDC's stance on Pablo Neruda, and many similar disagreements in the past. Jmabel is way too harsh, though, in calling TDC "a belligerent POV warrior." "Belligerent POV warriors" get their way through wearing down opposition, and they do not tolerate editors who do not share their views. TDC works respectfully and constructively with users who do not share his views, at least when other editors give him a chance... It seems that some users are getting the wrong impression from his sense of humor... Mediation might work better here than arbitration. Although I am not a mediator, I volunteer to help out if anyone's interested. 172 8 July 2005 10:01 (UTC)
BTW, TDC, regarding Neruda, after Khrushchev's speech at the 20th Congress of the CPSU and the Sino-Soviet Split, the term "Stalinist" is most often used to refer to "anti-revisionist" Communists who attacked the Soviet Union as "revisionist." Neruda, however, was a member of the Chilean Communist Party, which did not take an "anti-revisionist" line. So if I heard a Chilean referred to as a "Stalinist," I'd assume that he/she belonged to a more extreme outfit than Neruda's party. You do make a good case that he personally was sympathetic to Stalin, but, IMO, Viajero has a point about keeping Neruda out of the "list of Stalinists." 172 8 July 2005 10:01 (UTC)
I've only crossed paths with TDC on articles a few times but he seems like a good contributor. Tough on others at times but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's helped in NPOVing some of the most blatant cases of bias that go unchecked. J. Parker Stone 9 July 2005 02:17 (UTC)
Firstly I want to apologise to TDC for suspecting him of using sock puppets. The evidence is circumstantial and far from conclusive.
For the rest, there seems to be a clear problem here. How to solve it? TDC, would you consider mediation? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 19:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the apology. As for the mediation, it depends, to what end? TDC 20:31, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I would tend to understand the To resolve our existing differences suggested by Tony Sidaway not as a suggestion that our points of view should be identical (this indeed would be both unfeasable and undesirable), but that the means of expressing our points would be in adequation. Your very user page makes numerous allusions to confrontation; your edits are often very radical and apparantly rarely meant to find a commonly acceptable formulation; your edit summaries are sometimes needlessly insulting.
I understand that one could feel that there would be some sort of need for "balancing the POV" or something like this, but everybody should be well-aware that opposite extreme discourses do not cancel each other out, much to the contrary. A confrontational attitude does not tend to discourage other users from opposing you, but notably degrades the atmosphere of the articles. For people who get stuck into a cross-fire, it is extremely discouraging. So one thing which could be worked upon would be accepting other users as collaborators on one commons project, rather than opponants. You are an engineer, so I am confident that you see what I mean. Rama 22:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And BTW, just because I respect TDC's work, am a new arrival and am monitoring the reversions against him does not mean I'm a sockpuppet. I'm not. Check the IP's or whatever you do to find out, I'm not him. Dagen 06:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
TDC, I'm sorry that you don't think that our differences can be resolved. I emphasize the word "resolved" and agree with Rama's interpretation. As encyclopedists we should be able to work together within the framework of Wikipedia towards the common goal of a better encyclopedia, not that our very different points of view should somehow unite. The encyclopedia would not gain, and indeed could only lose, from incorporation of our personal opinions into the articles. I urge you to reconsider my offer of mediation. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 09:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's really not the vibe I get from you, I'm afraid. And the main reason is your propensity to launch apparently unprovoked attacks. You just have to know by now that this is counter-productive. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But I'm getting ahead of myself. I think we could undergo mediation productively. Do you accept? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, my impression is that you seem to be blowing hot and cold on this. On one hand you express severe doubts about the adequacy of Wikipedia procedures, for at least a year you have felt free to launch some of the most extreme casual personal attacks I've seen made by a Wikipedia regular, you seem to engage in POV-pushing as a matter of policy, and you get into revert wars frequently. You appear to have little or no respect for those who try to collaborate with you on Wikipedia articles, regarding them it seems to me as opponents to be fought.
In short, I think a number of other editors have a problem with your behavior and attitude, and they want to see a genuine change.
It may be that they in their turn are exacerbating the problem, and that is something that mediation can resolve.
So I disagree with you. I think it certainly *has* reached a point where we should be looking for a resolution for what it perceived by a number of editors to be a long run of problematic behavior on your part, and by at least one other editor as some kind of political blackballing on the part of those who claim about you. I think something must be done, in the interests of Wikipedia. I don't think that just carrying on is really the wise thing to do at this point. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Who else agrees to enter into mediation? As this is a RfC concerning TDC's behavior I suggest that some others who have endorsed the RfC join me as a common disputant with TDC. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 14:09, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think thats a very bad idea. Mediation w you is just fine, but as an AMA advocate, I have to vigorously oppose TDC accepting mediation w a group. 1 on 1 is balanced, w a potential for a neutral result. A gang vrs. 1 user is no kind of mediation in my book. Sam Spade 17:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The problem with mediation between me and TDC is that it wouldn't affect the way people treat TDC. He and I could get along fine (I might, for instance, agree to avoid engaging with TDC at all) but next time he goes and attacks someone in an edit comment he's mincemeat. Nobody else would care about what Tony and TDC agreed.-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think you're probably right. It would almost certainly be better to try to use mediation to establish a dialog between us two as individuals. I have made a mediation request. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:35, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Side issue: I just want to point out that
Dagen has neither withdrawn nor formalized or substantiated his aspersion on my conduct and that of the others who certified or endorsed the original claim. --
Jmabel |
Talk 02:23, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Sure, an RfC is an opportunity for the community to discuss and confront / communicate with a user seen to be problematic, but mediation is another thing entirely. It is a private exchange with a goal of resolution. An RfC often doesn't have resolution as its goal. Sam Spade 10:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
God forbid anyone know the truth about the matter, what was I thinking! And I think that after 14 months of having a piece of information rejected I can be entitled to gloat a little. But, that's nice, you know, following me around from edit to edit. TDC 13:51, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 13:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 15:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC).
TDC has been sanctioned four times in the past month for 3RR infractions and repeated 24-hour bans appear to have no effect on his behaviour, save to increase his self-admitted and transparent efforts to "game" the system by disguising his reverts.
This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections should not edit here.
TDC has been contributing to Wikipedia for at least a year. In an environment in which many people have strong opinions, TDC stands out as an tenacious POV warrior, more interested in slanting texts to suit his particular political ideology than in building good articles. For him, the collaborative editing process serves as a weapon rather than as a matter of facilitation. It is virtually impossible to find an edit among his contributions which is not intended to score political points. He frequently gets into edit wars, yet makes minimal effort to enter into dialog and look for compromise on Talk pages. He blatantly tries to game the 3RR rule by disguising reverts as new edits, something he freely admits in edit summaries and on Talk pages. He rarely cites sources for his edits, and when he does the sources often turn out not to say what they claim he does or they turn out to be irrelevant and not mention the subject of his edits at all. (See Talk:Paul Robeson and Talk:Pablo Neruda)
In addition, TDC now appears to be editing some of the same articles over which he has been recently banned with the sockpuppet account User:Dagen. (See: Pablo Neruda, Fidel Castro, W. E. B. DuBois, Earth Day)
Once already an RfC has been compiled on him. It was initially filed on 7 May 2004. See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/TDC
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1. Iraq Liberation Act, 21 March 2005
2. Iraq Liberation Act ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 22 March 2005
Reported by: Christiaan 21:25, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
The diffs appear to be quite different. I noted the edit comments though and will have a look at the actual page. Refdoc 00:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you want to present evidence for a 3RR you should give the diffs which show that the violating user has not actually added anything in. As it is, I have banned User:TDC for one week form editing as this was the second 3RR violation in short succession on the same set of pages. But I also not the anonymous revert which conveniently appeared when "your" turn came. I think you are sailing very close to the wind, USer:Christiaan... Refdoc 00:51, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough, no argument. Refdoc 13:17, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
3. Anti-globalization ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 3 April 2005
4. COINTELPRO ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 19 April 2005
Reported by: Viajero 20:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
Ok now I can this diff shows they are identical despite claims to the contry [1] Geni 22:14, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
5. Pablo Neruda ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 25 April 2005
6. Fidel Castro ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) 18 May 2005
Reported by: Mark 1 06:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Comments:
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
(provide diffs and links)
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Hmm …. Where to begin ………
First let me address the allegations made by these two fine upstanding Wikipedians.
I admit that I have violated the 3RR rule several times. Some of these were the acts of a collaborative provocation between two users [31], so I was an idiot to fall into what was a rather transparent and crude attempt to silence me, so sue me. Others, I believe, were clearly the acts of an over zealous Admin. I feel the most recent 24hr ban was unwarranted because I had put new information into the article as well as restoring information that had been blanked. Other instance, there is no excuse and I will freely admit to my error. Simple enough I suppose.
What can I say, when you wave a flag, don’t be surprised when TDC comes charging.
Now let us move on the real reason I am being RfC’s.
For some reason Viajero has a problem with me. Viajero feels that my contributions to Pablo Neruda are not justified. His reasons for this, well that’s anybody’s guess because he has refused to discuss my contributions to the article in the article’s talk page. This is most likely due to the fact that my contributions are entirely factual, supported by credible sources, and presented in as an NOPV was as possible. So naturally he would not want to debate me, he has no legs to stand on.
In short, I am playing with his toys, and he don’t like it.
Now I know that some users are going to say “blah blah blah TDC does not work with others and pushes his POV blah blah blah (unintelligible remark about fascist right wingers)”. First, as I have said before the only POV I push is the truth. If it were up to the individuals who are behind this RfC, Wikipedia would be Commiepedia as evident by “Helpful Daves” drive to collaborate with likeminded users and push some editors off Wikipedia [32]. Secondly I can work with users who I have vast disagreements with, an example: [33].
You see, people like AndyL and 172, as much as I may have disagreed with them, could be reasoned with respected and both parties could walk away from a dispute without any hard feeling.
What we have here now, is a new breed, embodied primarily in Chameleon. The ultimate in POV warriors like me, but unwilling to collaborate, unwilling to respect others, and unable to see that they are wrong. They believe that they can turn Wiki into a might makes right forum; using group action to dilute others they find objectionable.
I think that the recent controversy around [Anti-globalization and Anti-Semitism], the deletion from the main article the VFD of the new one and the continual attempts to re-merge make this point very well.
This is nothing more than a cheap parliamentary trick to get me kicked off and silenced, and I absolutely positively will not fucking stand for it.
What proof do I have? None really, just a hunch, as Chameleon is no longer open about his plans and refuses to discuss anything outside of private and what he demands to be confidential email. What’s he got to hide [34]? I suppose we will never know, seeing as how he is doing his best to cover his tracks in anticipation of his next Admin bid.
Do people take my harsh comments out of context? Most of them are simple jokes, and I will not be held responsible for a lack of a sense of humor. TFB I say. Oh, how dare I, was that rude? Oh well that’s the world in which we live.
No for a side issue that has been bugging me. Some users, whose names will be witheld for the protection of the innocent, have accused me of using sock puppets. I take this allegation very seriously as I feel it is one of the most dishonest acts that can be perpetrated on Wikipedia. Sockpupets skew what would normally be a dynamic debate where editors prevail or fail based on the strength of an argument or on the validity of the process. Seeing as how I believe I have mastered these since starting here over 1 year ago, I find Sockpupets vile and do not condone their use. Since I only edit from 3 locations, all within the Chicago land area (and Fishkill NY on two recent business trips), it should be simple enough to determine if any of these alleged sockpuppets are actually me by running the IP address through geobytes or any IP tracing site.
So, in short, either provide some concrete evidence that I am doing this or kindly STFU. TDC 19:27, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
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I think TDC should be more careful of the 3rr and Wikipedia:Civility policies, and encourage him to contact myself or others when he feels a need for assistance. Sam Spade 16:20, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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TDC brings a lot to Wikipedia, and I really hope this can be resolved in a way that doesn't involve banning him. He reads a lot of different sources than most Wikipedians, and often adds useful information to articles.
On the other hand, he is a belligerent POV warrior. I first really noticed him over http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/TDC-2&action=edit§ion=9an extremely polemical edit without a summary, a tactic that I can only presume to be intended as stealth. He is rather uncivil (I've endorsed the summary above) and I've never really seen him do any of the basic work of building an article: instead, he's always trying to score political points, slant articles his way, etc.
In the recent case of Neruda, it's hard to see the argument for including a lengthy passage from one of Neruda's (politically and literarily) most embarrassing poems (although I'm entirely in favor of mentioning the existence of the poem, and would have no problem with a line or two being quoted). Neruda is not mainly known for bad polemical poetry, and we do not customarily add this sort of thing to an article (e.g., we do not include an extract of Mirabeau's pornography. Or even Sade's. We do not quote George W. Bush's rambling, ungrammatical sentences at length.)
I wish TDC would show some indication of actually being more interested in building an accurate, useful encyclopedia than in trying to turn it into a soapbox. Or even as interested. Or even willing, if it's not his primary interest. Again, I think he has a lot to bring to the table, but if the price of his presence is that any article that doesn't go exactly his way becomes a battleground, I stop being interested in defending him. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:50, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
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This request for comment should be considered in the context of those bringing the complaint and their motivation for doing so. Without exception, I have discovered each of those endorsing the complaint are very frequently responsible for left or far-left wing agenda pushing within articles. To the extent TDC is fighting this propagandizing he should be congratulated. If you wish for a Wikipedia dominated by leftist propaganda then you will get rid of good editors like TDC. I stumbled on his good quality edits and noticed a systematic destruction of them by several users including most of the above endorsing the complaint against him. Those complaining should have clean hands, the above users do not.
Even worse, I believe the intent of this comment process is to have a chilling effect on TDC's edits and interest in making edits. It is an attempt at censoring an opinion that is not lockstep with the radical left agenda pushed consistently by the complainants. It is most improper in the circumstances. I see no valid complaint made and more to the point I see very real problems with the left wing agenda (usually self-admitted) by the group of editors above who act like a group of raptors descending on an article and leaving a left-wing leaning carcass in their wake.
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16:47, Apr 16, 2005 [38], and now the edit just prior to that [39], compare this to your first edit [40], a complete removal of my work. No discussion, no talk, just a blanket deletion of all my contributions. Now, lets see your next move: [41], another deletion of my contributions in their entirety. And then Gamaliel jumps in, and his first contribution is a blanket RV [42]. In fact the fist attempt by you to discuss this took place after you eliminated my contributions twice. So please don’t play the poor abused editor, you did not want my contributions to stay, regardless of their veracity of them.
I feel compelled to come to TDC's defense here. Jmabel is correct to point out below that he brings a lot to Wikipedia; he does use more-- and a greater variety of-- sources than most Wikipedians working in his area, and he has been adding a wealth of useful information to articles for over a year. I say this despite my disagreement with TDC's stance on Pablo Neruda, and many similar disagreements in the past. Jmabel is way too harsh, though, in calling TDC "a belligerent POV warrior." "Belligerent POV warriors" get their way through wearing down opposition, and they do not tolerate editors who do not share their views. TDC works respectfully and constructively with users who do not share his views, at least when other editors give him a chance... It seems that some users are getting the wrong impression from his sense of humor... Mediation might work better here than arbitration. Although I am not a mediator, I volunteer to help out if anyone's interested. 172 8 July 2005 10:01 (UTC)
BTW, TDC, regarding Neruda, after Khrushchev's speech at the 20th Congress of the CPSU and the Sino-Soviet Split, the term "Stalinist" is most often used to refer to "anti-revisionist" Communists who attacked the Soviet Union as "revisionist." Neruda, however, was a member of the Chilean Communist Party, which did not take an "anti-revisionist" line. So if I heard a Chilean referred to as a "Stalinist," I'd assume that he/she belonged to a more extreme outfit than Neruda's party. You do make a good case that he personally was sympathetic to Stalin, but, IMO, Viajero has a point about keeping Neruda out of the "list of Stalinists." 172 8 July 2005 10:01 (UTC)
I've only crossed paths with TDC on articles a few times but he seems like a good contributor. Tough on others at times but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's helped in NPOVing some of the most blatant cases of bias that go unchecked. J. Parker Stone 9 July 2005 02:17 (UTC)
Firstly I want to apologise to TDC for suspecting him of using sock puppets. The evidence is circumstantial and far from conclusive.
For the rest, there seems to be a clear problem here. How to solve it? TDC, would you consider mediation? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 19:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the apology. As for the mediation, it depends, to what end? TDC 20:31, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
I would tend to understand the To resolve our existing differences suggested by Tony Sidaway not as a suggestion that our points of view should be identical (this indeed would be both unfeasable and undesirable), but that the means of expressing our points would be in adequation. Your very user page makes numerous allusions to confrontation; your edits are often very radical and apparantly rarely meant to find a commonly acceptable formulation; your edit summaries are sometimes needlessly insulting.
I understand that one could feel that there would be some sort of need for "balancing the POV" or something like this, but everybody should be well-aware that opposite extreme discourses do not cancel each other out, much to the contrary. A confrontational attitude does not tend to discourage other users from opposing you, but notably degrades the atmosphere of the articles. For people who get stuck into a cross-fire, it is extremely discouraging. So one thing which could be worked upon would be accepting other users as collaborators on one commons project, rather than opponants. You are an engineer, so I am confident that you see what I mean. Rama 22:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And BTW, just because I respect TDC's work, am a new arrival and am monitoring the reversions against him does not mean I'm a sockpuppet. I'm not. Check the IP's or whatever you do to find out, I'm not him. Dagen 06:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
TDC, I'm sorry that you don't think that our differences can be resolved. I emphasize the word "resolved" and agree with Rama's interpretation. As encyclopedists we should be able to work together within the framework of Wikipedia towards the common goal of a better encyclopedia, not that our very different points of view should somehow unite. The encyclopedia would not gain, and indeed could only lose, from incorporation of our personal opinions into the articles. I urge you to reconsider my offer of mediation. --
Tony Sidaway|
Talk 09:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's really not the vibe I get from you, I'm afraid. And the main reason is your propensity to launch apparently unprovoked attacks. You just have to know by now that this is counter-productive. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But I'm getting ahead of myself. I think we could undergo mediation productively. Do you accept? -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 22:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, my impression is that you seem to be blowing hot and cold on this. On one hand you express severe doubts about the adequacy of Wikipedia procedures, for at least a year you have felt free to launch some of the most extreme casual personal attacks I've seen made by a Wikipedia regular, you seem to engage in POV-pushing as a matter of policy, and you get into revert wars frequently. You appear to have little or no respect for those who try to collaborate with you on Wikipedia articles, regarding them it seems to me as opponents to be fought.
In short, I think a number of other editors have a problem with your behavior and attitude, and they want to see a genuine change.
It may be that they in their turn are exacerbating the problem, and that is something that mediation can resolve.
So I disagree with you. I think it certainly *has* reached a point where we should be looking for a resolution for what it perceived by a number of editors to be a long run of problematic behavior on your part, and by at least one other editor as some kind of political blackballing on the part of those who claim about you. I think something must be done, in the interests of Wikipedia. I don't think that just carrying on is really the wise thing to do at this point. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 06:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Who else agrees to enter into mediation? As this is a RfC concerning TDC's behavior I suggest that some others who have endorsed the RfC join me as a common disputant with TDC. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 14:09, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think thats a very bad idea. Mediation w you is just fine, but as an AMA advocate, I have to vigorously oppose TDC accepting mediation w a group. 1 on 1 is balanced, w a potential for a neutral result. A gang vrs. 1 user is no kind of mediation in my book. Sam Spade 17:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The problem with mediation between me and TDC is that it wouldn't affect the way people treat TDC. He and I could get along fine (I might, for instance, agree to avoid engaging with TDC at all) but next time he goes and attacks someone in an edit comment he's mincemeat. Nobody else would care about what Tony and TDC agreed.-- Tony Sidaway| Talk 00:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think you're probably right. It would almost certainly be better to try to use mediation to establish a dialog between us two as individuals. I have made a mediation request. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:35, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Side issue: I just want to point out that
Dagen has neither withdrawn nor formalized or substantiated his aspersion on my conduct and that of the others who certified or endorsed the original claim. --
Jmabel |
Talk 02:23, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
Sure, an RfC is an opportunity for the community to discuss and confront / communicate with a user seen to be problematic, but mediation is another thing entirely. It is a private exchange with a goal of resolution. An RfC often doesn't have resolution as its goal. Sam Spade 10:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
God forbid anyone know the truth about the matter, what was I thinking! And I think that after 14 months of having a piece of information rejected I can be entitled to gloat a little. But, that's nice, you know, following me around from edit to edit. TDC 13:51, May 3, 2005 (UTC)