The Arbitration Committee has opened this request for comment regarding the dispute resolution process for content disputes in order to gauge community opinion on the subject and to gather potential ideas for reform.
All editors are invited to present comments or proposals concerning any aspect of content dispute resolution. The Committee is especially interested in the following questions:
Editors presenting specific proposals for reform should do so in the proposal section. Other comments should be made in the views section.
Although most Wikipedians are reasonable and collaborative, few ones who aren't tend to come to the attention of site administration and eventually--in some instances--to arbitration. In nearly all occasions where the Committee becomes involved, unreasonable individuals also violate conduct policies. This is useful because it allows the Committee to sanction conduct (misrepresentation of sources, forum shopping etc.) which in turn removes uncollaborative individuals from the discussion. If this is done properly the remaining editors can usually collaborate.
For about the last year and a half the Committee has strayed away from its former practice of identifying and remedying primary aggressors. Last year it substituted discretionary sanctions, which were often ineffective and sometimes created new problems of their own. More recently ArbCom has tended toward the "nuclear option", sanctioning more aggressively--and perhaps indiscriminately. Neither is a workable alternative to sanctioning primary aggressors; the more recent trend runs the risk of validating and rewarding mudslinging campaigns. This risks a chilling effect in which productive editors fear to contribute to controversial topics in any way at all, lest their wiki-reputations be ruined despite their best efforts to be helpful.
If "content dispute resolution" is to become a new attempt to circumvent the Committee's central function of identifying and remedying primary aggressors, then I strongly discourage the experiment. Fundamentally disruptive individuals are talented at subverting processes; this is why they wind up at arbitration. If an exceptionally well-designed process were established with incorruptible volunteers, the disruptive editors would set about ruining the wiki-reputations of its volunteers.
This RfC opens at a time when the site's longest arbitration case is nearly five months old. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology opened on 12 December 2008 and is the longest arbitration in site history. Content dispute resolution is outside ArbCom's mandate: content is the realm of MedCom. At present ArbCom is having difficulty addressing its core mission, which renders this an inopportune moment for an RfC that presumptively expands ArbCom's scope and function radically. The community need not seek ArbCom's stamp of approval to manage content.
I believe that our current content dispute resolution works well. The problem in just about any large dispute is mostly not about content, it's user conduct. Although on the surface the content issues look to be causing the problems, when you look deeper into it you see that it is in fact users failing to work collaboratively and not fully embracing our current dispute resolution methods.
I'm truly of the impression that if you sort the conduct issues, you solve the content dispute. If there's no conduct issues, then content RfC's, third opinions and mediation almost always solve the issues at hand. I'm finding it hard to think of any content dispute that was so egregious that it couldn't be solved with our current mechanisms when there were no underlying conduct problems. I think the Arbitration Committee would be best served looking at earlier methods of conduct dispute resolution - streamlining the conduct RfC process and perhaps developing a few others would really help solve many content disputes. What we don't need at this time is a new committee dictating content - that goes against many of our key editing philosophies.
I'm not sure our current system works for content dispute works well enough. But I think having arbcom maintain its no content review policy is excellent for separation of powers reasons. Further the goals of the two types of dispute resolution are different. Personality disputes are unlikely to filter out to the wider internet community en mass but can flame up quickly and escalate very fast. Content disputes conversely are likely to filter out to the wider internet community and thus Wikipedia needs strong support and by in on content from the community as a whole. In other words efficiency with respect to personality disputes and correctness with respect to content is probably the best overall theme. Further, If arbcom had positions on content it would be more difficult for those to evolve with time. So I definitely do not believe arbcom should rule on content.
Where I do think there is potential for enhancement in dispute would be enhance the authority and scope of medcom. Medcom members should stand for election the same as arbcom. Pages can be sent to Medcom for binding mediation (essentially what article probation means today) and that failure to participate in good faith in a mediation process can result in disciplinary action. Mediation cabal should handle non binding voluntary mediations. Right now the two groups are too similar in their function.
I'm a coordinator for the mediation cabal (MedCab). I'll copy and paste the questions and answer. By "DR", I mean all processes aside from ArbCom for brevity.
As much fun as it would be to get certain longstanding content disputes finally resolved from "on high" (thinking specifically of Episodes and Characters here) I fear it would politicize the process and turn policy into a kind of majority-rules by proxy vote.
That said, for articles under an active Project, that project turns into the de facto "dedicated body for ruling on content disputes/source reliability". It's how something like the mass-merging of Pokemon articles can actually happen without editors kicking and screaming the whole way through. Unfortunately, that void is very difficult to fill for content disputes because of the subject knowledge required.
Near as I can tell the RS noticeboard does that job for sources. To me, source reliability is like Verifiability in practice: if someone asks "What makes this source reliable?" you need to have a good answer, without which the source goes away.
If there's one thing lacking in our current system, it's a centralized body that can authoritatively pick a "winner" and "loser" when all other options have been exhausted. While bureaucracy is to be avoided at all costs, it would be very nice to have a court to which content disputes can be taken, policy-based decisions rendered, and results published and considered normative until changed. In one recent content dispute User:Arcayne and I agree that we have fundamentally incompatible views on the use of primary sources in Daybreak (Battlestar Galactica): we look at all the same policies, and in good faith read them in different ways. A case for mediation resulted in a user with about 1/10th our combined edits trying to adjudicate--he was, through no fault of his own, out of his depth. We could really use a "court" of people who're familiar enough with nuances of policy to make such calls--or propose a novel and previously unconsidered compromise--when good faith efforts between earnest and civil yet disagreeing editors fail.
Frankly, I'd also like to see a WP:FICT issued from "on high". When consensus breaks down in ways that prevent the entire encyclopedia from moving forward, the community could really benefit from a logjam-breaking group who would, much like ArbCom, be composed of senior, respected folks who can hear the arguments, make a pronouncement, and that pronouncement would be the "new normal" for Wikipedia.
When I have mediated disputes and those involved were reasonable and willing to negotiate, the dispute would be resolved quickly and, so far as I am aware, permanently; when one or more of those involved were unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate, the dispute would linger and any solution would not stick. So the key point in any dispute, be it a content dispute or a behaviour dispute, is the attitude of those involved. ArbCom's role is to look at the behaviour of users to see if they are unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate - and to put remedies in place to prevent unreasonable and unwilling users from disrupting the project. There is no need for ArbCom to look into content issues - that is a different process. Mediation is not about issuing sanctions or making rulings, it's about helping people in dispute to reach a solution that all parties agree to. A committee is not needed for that - mediation is best done by a calm, patient and detached individual that the people involved can trust.
The question of sourcing and POV issues is the same. ArbCom should only get involved to deal with individuals who are unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate. Take away the unreasonable and unwilling individuals and the community can generally work toward solutions.
ArbCom could work more effectively for the community if they ignored the content and other issues of a dispute, and simply examined the evidence of disruptive, unreasonable and unwilling behaviour, and then acted swiftly to sanction those who are preventing the community from working toward a solution.
There appears to be the need for a body that can make judgements on the validity of sources, the interpretation of such references, the primacy of a viewpoint referenced by such sources, the application of WP:Due weight of other viewpoints, etc. that is independent of the actions of the various editors and also the other processes of DR (including ArbCom, MedCab, Projects, etc). Such a group can then present their independent findings to the various DR bodies who can then incorporate them in their processes. In a case where there is no issue of conduct problems, such a body could be the final venue of purely content dispute resolution.
Now, if anyone can find this actual wand... LessHeard vanU ( talk) 10:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
More effort needs to be put into establishing the genuine nature of disputes among the relevant community of editors, rather that taking statements of involved editors at face value. Once the Arbitration committee gets involved in a "content" dispute, they legitimise it as a "genuine dispute" and thus as a dispute that has to be taken seriously among the community. As we all know, editors are prone to warring and hardening into opposing groups. On occasion (maybe even more-often-that-not), so-called "content" disputes before the arbitration committee are more a case of these kinds of "hardened" disputes between editors, rather than genuinely about content. Prudence should be exercised by the committee so as to not legitimise superficial "content" disputes but to resolve the underlying warring and tribalism.
The the committee should retain their current boundary of not adjudicating content disputes - but also need to be careful not to implicitly legitimise such "content" disputes. In sum, the committee should stay away from content altogether.
To answer the questions first:
Generally, the conduct arbcom does not have sufficient knowledge of each and every field to render meaningful content decisions. A obvious example was the ruling that Science is not a point of view, which underscore the issue.
Many conduct disputes are the result of prolonged content disputes, in which the existing dispute resolution has failed. The current arbcom can not resolve those issues, as they are limited to conduct issues. To adequately deal with content issues, a separate ArbCom needs to be created, with specific procedure on how to deal with this kind of content disputes. A general outline I envision would be:
A few remarks:
I think it is not correct that the present situation works well. The total situation works by the two sides trying to maneuver (or bully) until the key representative of one position commits an unforgivable conduct error, at which point that person can be removed. What is selected for is relative skills at Wikipedia, and relative emotional stability under pressure. To the extent that our decisions are to be based on the attempt to find a correctly neutral position, not internal and external politics, those factors are not relevant. What they favor is the established editors, who have throughly learned the rules and have to some extent been selected by time for self-restraint, and whatever may be the positions they happen to hold. fortunately, their positions are not uniform, but it's a haphazard way of doing things. We do have biases. I share some of them. NPOV is a wonderful principle, but almost nobody can actually apply it to anything they really care about, and experience shows that anyone who edits where they do not actually care will inevitably come to favor one or another position. This creates certain difficulties in how to do things better, so I am not immediately proposing a solution. One that I am quite sure will not work is letting arb com handle it; they have difficulty enough with their current role. Maybe there is not one, but that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no problem. DGG ( talk) 02:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I, like Xavexgoem, mediate at the Mediation Cabal, and I, as well, will respond to the commmitte's questions in a point-by-point form, with some follow up after that. I hope that my input will help.
However, I agree that any process set up should be set up via community discussion and proposals, rather than a mandate from the Arbitration Committee, and it would be better if this RFC was re-opened and conducted by the community. Steve Crossin Talk/ Help us mediate! 01:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Because Arbitration openly professes to focus on behavior over content issues, it is therefore in practice not the final step in the dispute resolution process -the content problem usually remains essentially unchanged after an arbitration decision. Therefore in theory it serves primarily to apply corrective behavioral solutions in order to allow the disrupted dispute resolution process to resume in a proper manner. Ergo, in practice a decision is rendered, and usually it does help, more or less - but in theory there should ensue a process of fruitful content dispute resolution that is made possible because of the corrective arbcom decision. But in practice this rarely happens for various reasons, (one of them because that the parties still lack basic practical education with Wikipedia policies and mediation skills, another is because there is simply a lack of participation on the article).
2 reasons why the current approach of arbcom is not as effective as it could be-
1-To state that arbitration is the final step in a dispute resolution process with the caveat that the focus is on user behaviour and not content isn't necessarily an effective approach because a) most serious disputes are ultimately inherently content-based; b) in theory, the end of the dispute resolution process should be the resolution of the dispute (which as stated in a, is essentially a content problem, of arriving at a formulation of an article, or part of article that is deemed of encyclopedic quality and acceptable to all parties involved.)
2- It is very complicated to effectively enforce blocks and bans in a system that is internet-based, anonymous, and with free registration. Therefore it isn't really that practical to have an approach that focuses on sanctions based on user behavior, i.e. sanctions that are inherently difficult to enforce effectively.
I think one of the biggest hurdles in the debate is the widespread misconception that consensus should be the ultimate reference for proper content. Policy should be the ultimate reference for proper content. Policy should supercede consensus. Hence the need to have a responsible group that rules on questions of content in reference to Wikipedia policy.
If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, then let the final resolution process be editorial-based and rational; an article, in theory, is more amenable to rational and collective analysis than the internet edit-trail of an anonymous, changeable identity.
(Numbering below is done for organization only, and not related to question numbers.)
First of all, I do think something should be done, but I don't know what.
I want to expand on something mentioned by Jclemens above. A lot of the discussion here seems to be thinking in terms of cases like the Israel/Palestine dispute, where you have endless armies going at it indefinitely. What Jclemens mentioned above is the sort of case where a dispute is intractable for the opposite reason. Hardly anyone is interested, so a consensus cannot be established. RfCs tend to produce little response in many cases. Note that what a number of people say above about dealing with behaviour doesn't seem to apply in this sort of case. Both ArbCom & RFC/U, as far as I understand the rules, require three users to complain about the same behaviour of the same user on the same article before they'll even consider doing anything about it. This allows POV pushers to get away with murder in less-frequented articles, & then add or redirect links to their propaganda. I've seen quite a bit of this, though of course I can't name names without violating AGF.
There's been a suggestion on this page somewhere of a special role for projects. Here I can be a bit more specific without naming names. Most of my WP work has been in the field of Buddhism. Most of the WP editors in the field are, unsurprisingly, Buddhists. More to the point, though, they are Western(ized) Buddhists. They represent a particular type of Buddhism overwhelmingly. They often argue that Buddhist writers are more reliable sources than outside scholars. That has a certain measure of plausibility to it, until you realize that what it actually means in practice is their Buddhist writers, the ones who write in English & are published because they're popular in the West. Downplaying scholars who've studied untranslated literature or carried out anthropological field studies downplays most of the Buddhism that actually exists in the real world.
Peter jackson ( talk) 16:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
PS Imagine the Christianity project almost entirely consisting of liberal Christians. that's the sort of analogy to think about. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
[1] is an interesting comment by a longstanding editor (now retired). Although similar things happen in real life, it might be considered that a system that results in people considering it advances their cause to misbehave & be punished must have something wrong with it. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the system of haggling to reach "consensus" is, I think, fairly predictable:
Mark this page historical.
ArbCom should focus on its original mandate, conduct issues. It should allow MedCom to make more binding decisions, and start referring more things to there.
Establish an explicit Content ArbCom as outlined above
Keep the content side of dispute resolution as is. Focus more time and effort on streamlining and promoting the current conduct dispute resolution methods and find ways of developing more. Hopefully this will allow the content to fall into place with fewer conduct issues disrupting processes.
That this ArbCom led RfC be closed, and a new community led Requests for comment/Content dispute resolution be opened. This will reduce potential drama over issues related to ArbCom, and allow a more focussed discussion.
(a) That content be decided by consensus as it is (in theory) now.
(b) That admins and other potential mediators play an active part in steering the consensus process when it's off the rails, whether invited by the parties or not.
(c) That consensus, once reached, be enforceable until a new consensus is reached.
(d) That admins be permitted to use good judgement to effect a suitable interim solution while consensus is still being reached.
(e) That disputes about what consensus has been reached be recognized as clearly distinct from either content disputes and conduct issues, and be settled relatively quickly by admins.
(f) That complaints about conduct are made to admins and dealt with quickly and effectively.
(g) That any decision, action or inaction by admins be appealable first to the wider admin community, and then to ArbCom.
(h) That there is no need for ArbCom to accept disputes between editors in any circumstances except as described in (g).
(i) That disruptive behaviour must be dealt with firmly when and where it happens, and never rewarded in any way (for example by gaining attention or being considered evidence of an absence of consensus).
The structure for creation of ad hoc groups to deal with specific matters of policy interpretation and application, which are the instances which prove most problematic here, be created. This structure might include the following options:
See: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Committees. Simple, straightforward, use the same skeleton structure of the AC itself. People can consensus out, poll out, vote out, anything that they'd like, all they like--but this puts final content and policy arbiters selected by the community for the community as a final wall to settle disputes.
We just had one in the date delinking case, which, although it had issues with management, proved useful. Content issues are the communities to solve not arb-coms, but that doesn't mean arb-com can't guide and manage a path for teh community to find consensus. I think Ryan would be a useful person to talk to regarding setting up a process through which to manage such polls and rfc's. I think he'd agree he learnt a lot regarding having an agreed end-game before launching, and also tight rules on canvassing and opening and closing. Many of these tasks can be automated, certainly the opening and closing and the canvassing. The end-game needs to be looked at more closely, but I think it is not beyond the means of arb-com to simply state that in certain binary issues a consensus can be determined by a certain %, the % variable depending on the issue, and also having a requirement for a quorom; I'd say the date delinking and the current poll at plot show that you're likely to get between 150 and 500 respondents depending upon where the issue is advertised. I think there is a viable process here which would help ease tensions: the input of arbitrators/mediators in settling what the issue is and composing a question or questions for the community, and providing solutions in the format of if x we do 1, if y we do 2, if z we do 3. I think we also need to establish better practises for teh definition of "no consensus" and what it means. I'd certainly like to see some sort of return to "open polls" on issues. This was a system where we used to leave polls open for a long time, and I think we could return to that with some sort of arb-com input. Take date-autoformatting. Even though the poll is closed, there is nothing to be lost from leaving the poll open, and reviewing it periodically to see if consensus has changed. This also would allow a funnel for frustration. If we had a list of such open polls at the bottom of cent and other areas, this would allow community memebers to have their voice heard and in a sense act as a "petition". Take for example WP:N, which is typically a cause of issue. If we had a page where people could sign their support or opposition to the very principle notability enshrines, we could quite quickly defuse a vast number of debates. We could simply point people to the appropriate section of the open poll or petition. Obviously we fall into accusations of "not a democracy", but the obvious retort is "not a battleground". This system has been used on Wikipedia before so it isn't outlandish, it formed the basis for a number of naming conventions. All we'd be doing is marrying it up to actual arbitration. Food for thought. I certainly think this is an area arb-com/mediators could become more useful, in a role akin to election observers or peacemakers. Hiding T 10:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I am in concurrence with the majority of commentators here and for most of the reasons they give for ArbCom not taking up responsibility for content disputes. It’s really much wiser to keep the venues for addressing editor behavior and content disputes separate and distinct in their purposes. I do agree with John Carter and others that having a dedicated body to work on content- and sourcing-related questions would be very beneficial; however, it may be that what is needed is to give some new procedural tools to MedCom rather than create a new organization.
As structured, MedCom is a small organization of members who are good at mediating; they are, however, too few to be even semi-expert in all areas of knowledge. (The same can also likely be said of those editors who actively watch and participate in any neutral capacity.) What I would recommend would be that a formal and explicit mechanism be crafted for the MedCom to draw on the active Wikiprojects themselves. IMO, the projects are usually the best places to resolve reliable source issues on their topic area – and once consensus is achieved to maintain it. They are likewise usually a good source for neutral, uninvolved subject-matter experts (SMEs) – and in my experience content disputes most often arise among somewhat knowledgeable but non-expert editors (and often in places where these SMEs aren’t watching); theirs would be a sort of “friend of the court” role – not as advocates or decisionmakers, but to develop a professionally informed advisory recommendation to the MedCom. However, where the content dispute is tied to an honest disagreement on interpretation of policies, guidelines and such – which are rarely completely clear as they are usually in a state of flux – then the community active on those pages need to be requested to develop a clarification.
This user has made no WP contributions since 15th April, so very likely hasn't heard of this RfC, so I'm acting as proxy here on my own initiative. The user was working on a proposal, which can be found at User:FimusTauri/RfCwO. I've no idea whether the user would in fact consider it sufficiently finished to be worth proposing here. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Editors, especially those with experience in content disputes, should help out in disputes about content of which they don't have a strong opinion.
No new policy or bureaucracy is needed.
Strengthen existing Third Opinion and request for comment procedures by setting up a list of editors willing to comment (categorised by topic); and then using a bot operating on a cab rank principle to ask those people to comment on specific third opinion / RFC requests. This would increase third party involvement in disputes, increase randomness of involvement (less self-selection might mean more neutrality, on average) and help resolve smaller ones. The big ones (like political choices over place names, say) need something else.
The Arbitration Committee has opened this request for comment regarding the dispute resolution process for content disputes in order to gauge community opinion on the subject and to gather potential ideas for reform.
All editors are invited to present comments or proposals concerning any aspect of content dispute resolution. The Committee is especially interested in the following questions:
Editors presenting specific proposals for reform should do so in the proposal section. Other comments should be made in the views section.
Although most Wikipedians are reasonable and collaborative, few ones who aren't tend to come to the attention of site administration and eventually--in some instances--to arbitration. In nearly all occasions where the Committee becomes involved, unreasonable individuals also violate conduct policies. This is useful because it allows the Committee to sanction conduct (misrepresentation of sources, forum shopping etc.) which in turn removes uncollaborative individuals from the discussion. If this is done properly the remaining editors can usually collaborate.
For about the last year and a half the Committee has strayed away from its former practice of identifying and remedying primary aggressors. Last year it substituted discretionary sanctions, which were often ineffective and sometimes created new problems of their own. More recently ArbCom has tended toward the "nuclear option", sanctioning more aggressively--and perhaps indiscriminately. Neither is a workable alternative to sanctioning primary aggressors; the more recent trend runs the risk of validating and rewarding mudslinging campaigns. This risks a chilling effect in which productive editors fear to contribute to controversial topics in any way at all, lest their wiki-reputations be ruined despite their best efforts to be helpful.
If "content dispute resolution" is to become a new attempt to circumvent the Committee's central function of identifying and remedying primary aggressors, then I strongly discourage the experiment. Fundamentally disruptive individuals are talented at subverting processes; this is why they wind up at arbitration. If an exceptionally well-designed process were established with incorruptible volunteers, the disruptive editors would set about ruining the wiki-reputations of its volunteers.
This RfC opens at a time when the site's longest arbitration case is nearly five months old. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology opened on 12 December 2008 and is the longest arbitration in site history. Content dispute resolution is outside ArbCom's mandate: content is the realm of MedCom. At present ArbCom is having difficulty addressing its core mission, which renders this an inopportune moment for an RfC that presumptively expands ArbCom's scope and function radically. The community need not seek ArbCom's stamp of approval to manage content.
I believe that our current content dispute resolution works well. The problem in just about any large dispute is mostly not about content, it's user conduct. Although on the surface the content issues look to be causing the problems, when you look deeper into it you see that it is in fact users failing to work collaboratively and not fully embracing our current dispute resolution methods.
I'm truly of the impression that if you sort the conduct issues, you solve the content dispute. If there's no conduct issues, then content RfC's, third opinions and mediation almost always solve the issues at hand. I'm finding it hard to think of any content dispute that was so egregious that it couldn't be solved with our current mechanisms when there were no underlying conduct problems. I think the Arbitration Committee would be best served looking at earlier methods of conduct dispute resolution - streamlining the conduct RfC process and perhaps developing a few others would really help solve many content disputes. What we don't need at this time is a new committee dictating content - that goes against many of our key editing philosophies.
I'm not sure our current system works for content dispute works well enough. But I think having arbcom maintain its no content review policy is excellent for separation of powers reasons. Further the goals of the two types of dispute resolution are different. Personality disputes are unlikely to filter out to the wider internet community en mass but can flame up quickly and escalate very fast. Content disputes conversely are likely to filter out to the wider internet community and thus Wikipedia needs strong support and by in on content from the community as a whole. In other words efficiency with respect to personality disputes and correctness with respect to content is probably the best overall theme. Further, If arbcom had positions on content it would be more difficult for those to evolve with time. So I definitely do not believe arbcom should rule on content.
Where I do think there is potential for enhancement in dispute would be enhance the authority and scope of medcom. Medcom members should stand for election the same as arbcom. Pages can be sent to Medcom for binding mediation (essentially what article probation means today) and that failure to participate in good faith in a mediation process can result in disciplinary action. Mediation cabal should handle non binding voluntary mediations. Right now the two groups are too similar in their function.
I'm a coordinator for the mediation cabal (MedCab). I'll copy and paste the questions and answer. By "DR", I mean all processes aside from ArbCom for brevity.
As much fun as it would be to get certain longstanding content disputes finally resolved from "on high" (thinking specifically of Episodes and Characters here) I fear it would politicize the process and turn policy into a kind of majority-rules by proxy vote.
That said, for articles under an active Project, that project turns into the de facto "dedicated body for ruling on content disputes/source reliability". It's how something like the mass-merging of Pokemon articles can actually happen without editors kicking and screaming the whole way through. Unfortunately, that void is very difficult to fill for content disputes because of the subject knowledge required.
Near as I can tell the RS noticeboard does that job for sources. To me, source reliability is like Verifiability in practice: if someone asks "What makes this source reliable?" you need to have a good answer, without which the source goes away.
If there's one thing lacking in our current system, it's a centralized body that can authoritatively pick a "winner" and "loser" when all other options have been exhausted. While bureaucracy is to be avoided at all costs, it would be very nice to have a court to which content disputes can be taken, policy-based decisions rendered, and results published and considered normative until changed. In one recent content dispute User:Arcayne and I agree that we have fundamentally incompatible views on the use of primary sources in Daybreak (Battlestar Galactica): we look at all the same policies, and in good faith read them in different ways. A case for mediation resulted in a user with about 1/10th our combined edits trying to adjudicate--he was, through no fault of his own, out of his depth. We could really use a "court" of people who're familiar enough with nuances of policy to make such calls--or propose a novel and previously unconsidered compromise--when good faith efforts between earnest and civil yet disagreeing editors fail.
Frankly, I'd also like to see a WP:FICT issued from "on high". When consensus breaks down in ways that prevent the entire encyclopedia from moving forward, the community could really benefit from a logjam-breaking group who would, much like ArbCom, be composed of senior, respected folks who can hear the arguments, make a pronouncement, and that pronouncement would be the "new normal" for Wikipedia.
When I have mediated disputes and those involved were reasonable and willing to negotiate, the dispute would be resolved quickly and, so far as I am aware, permanently; when one or more of those involved were unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate, the dispute would linger and any solution would not stick. So the key point in any dispute, be it a content dispute or a behaviour dispute, is the attitude of those involved. ArbCom's role is to look at the behaviour of users to see if they are unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate - and to put remedies in place to prevent unreasonable and unwilling users from disrupting the project. There is no need for ArbCom to look into content issues - that is a different process. Mediation is not about issuing sanctions or making rulings, it's about helping people in dispute to reach a solution that all parties agree to. A committee is not needed for that - mediation is best done by a calm, patient and detached individual that the people involved can trust.
The question of sourcing and POV issues is the same. ArbCom should only get involved to deal with individuals who are unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate. Take away the unreasonable and unwilling individuals and the community can generally work toward solutions.
ArbCom could work more effectively for the community if they ignored the content and other issues of a dispute, and simply examined the evidence of disruptive, unreasonable and unwilling behaviour, and then acted swiftly to sanction those who are preventing the community from working toward a solution.
There appears to be the need for a body that can make judgements on the validity of sources, the interpretation of such references, the primacy of a viewpoint referenced by such sources, the application of WP:Due weight of other viewpoints, etc. that is independent of the actions of the various editors and also the other processes of DR (including ArbCom, MedCab, Projects, etc). Such a group can then present their independent findings to the various DR bodies who can then incorporate them in their processes. In a case where there is no issue of conduct problems, such a body could be the final venue of purely content dispute resolution.
Now, if anyone can find this actual wand... LessHeard vanU ( talk) 10:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
More effort needs to be put into establishing the genuine nature of disputes among the relevant community of editors, rather that taking statements of involved editors at face value. Once the Arbitration committee gets involved in a "content" dispute, they legitimise it as a "genuine dispute" and thus as a dispute that has to be taken seriously among the community. As we all know, editors are prone to warring and hardening into opposing groups. On occasion (maybe even more-often-that-not), so-called "content" disputes before the arbitration committee are more a case of these kinds of "hardened" disputes between editors, rather than genuinely about content. Prudence should be exercised by the committee so as to not legitimise superficial "content" disputes but to resolve the underlying warring and tribalism.
The the committee should retain their current boundary of not adjudicating content disputes - but also need to be careful not to implicitly legitimise such "content" disputes. In sum, the committee should stay away from content altogether.
To answer the questions first:
Generally, the conduct arbcom does not have sufficient knowledge of each and every field to render meaningful content decisions. A obvious example was the ruling that Science is not a point of view, which underscore the issue.
Many conduct disputes are the result of prolonged content disputes, in which the existing dispute resolution has failed. The current arbcom can not resolve those issues, as they are limited to conduct issues. To adequately deal with content issues, a separate ArbCom needs to be created, with specific procedure on how to deal with this kind of content disputes. A general outline I envision would be:
A few remarks:
I think it is not correct that the present situation works well. The total situation works by the two sides trying to maneuver (or bully) until the key representative of one position commits an unforgivable conduct error, at which point that person can be removed. What is selected for is relative skills at Wikipedia, and relative emotional stability under pressure. To the extent that our decisions are to be based on the attempt to find a correctly neutral position, not internal and external politics, those factors are not relevant. What they favor is the established editors, who have throughly learned the rules and have to some extent been selected by time for self-restraint, and whatever may be the positions they happen to hold. fortunately, their positions are not uniform, but it's a haphazard way of doing things. We do have biases. I share some of them. NPOV is a wonderful principle, but almost nobody can actually apply it to anything they really care about, and experience shows that anyone who edits where they do not actually care will inevitably come to favor one or another position. This creates certain difficulties in how to do things better, so I am not immediately proposing a solution. One that I am quite sure will not work is letting arb com handle it; they have difficulty enough with their current role. Maybe there is not one, but that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no problem. DGG ( talk) 02:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I, like Xavexgoem, mediate at the Mediation Cabal, and I, as well, will respond to the commmitte's questions in a point-by-point form, with some follow up after that. I hope that my input will help.
However, I agree that any process set up should be set up via community discussion and proposals, rather than a mandate from the Arbitration Committee, and it would be better if this RFC was re-opened and conducted by the community. Steve Crossin Talk/ Help us mediate! 01:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Because Arbitration openly professes to focus on behavior over content issues, it is therefore in practice not the final step in the dispute resolution process -the content problem usually remains essentially unchanged after an arbitration decision. Therefore in theory it serves primarily to apply corrective behavioral solutions in order to allow the disrupted dispute resolution process to resume in a proper manner. Ergo, in practice a decision is rendered, and usually it does help, more or less - but in theory there should ensue a process of fruitful content dispute resolution that is made possible because of the corrective arbcom decision. But in practice this rarely happens for various reasons, (one of them because that the parties still lack basic practical education with Wikipedia policies and mediation skills, another is because there is simply a lack of participation on the article).
2 reasons why the current approach of arbcom is not as effective as it could be-
1-To state that arbitration is the final step in a dispute resolution process with the caveat that the focus is on user behaviour and not content isn't necessarily an effective approach because a) most serious disputes are ultimately inherently content-based; b) in theory, the end of the dispute resolution process should be the resolution of the dispute (which as stated in a, is essentially a content problem, of arriving at a formulation of an article, or part of article that is deemed of encyclopedic quality and acceptable to all parties involved.)
2- It is very complicated to effectively enforce blocks and bans in a system that is internet-based, anonymous, and with free registration. Therefore it isn't really that practical to have an approach that focuses on sanctions based on user behavior, i.e. sanctions that are inherently difficult to enforce effectively.
I think one of the biggest hurdles in the debate is the widespread misconception that consensus should be the ultimate reference for proper content. Policy should be the ultimate reference for proper content. Policy should supercede consensus. Hence the need to have a responsible group that rules on questions of content in reference to Wikipedia policy.
If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, then let the final resolution process be editorial-based and rational; an article, in theory, is more amenable to rational and collective analysis than the internet edit-trail of an anonymous, changeable identity.
(Numbering below is done for organization only, and not related to question numbers.)
First of all, I do think something should be done, but I don't know what.
I want to expand on something mentioned by Jclemens above. A lot of the discussion here seems to be thinking in terms of cases like the Israel/Palestine dispute, where you have endless armies going at it indefinitely. What Jclemens mentioned above is the sort of case where a dispute is intractable for the opposite reason. Hardly anyone is interested, so a consensus cannot be established. RfCs tend to produce little response in many cases. Note that what a number of people say above about dealing with behaviour doesn't seem to apply in this sort of case. Both ArbCom & RFC/U, as far as I understand the rules, require three users to complain about the same behaviour of the same user on the same article before they'll even consider doing anything about it. This allows POV pushers to get away with murder in less-frequented articles, & then add or redirect links to their propaganda. I've seen quite a bit of this, though of course I can't name names without violating AGF.
There's been a suggestion on this page somewhere of a special role for projects. Here I can be a bit more specific without naming names. Most of my WP work has been in the field of Buddhism. Most of the WP editors in the field are, unsurprisingly, Buddhists. More to the point, though, they are Western(ized) Buddhists. They represent a particular type of Buddhism overwhelmingly. They often argue that Buddhist writers are more reliable sources than outside scholars. That has a certain measure of plausibility to it, until you realize that what it actually means in practice is their Buddhist writers, the ones who write in English & are published because they're popular in the West. Downplaying scholars who've studied untranslated literature or carried out anthropological field studies downplays most of the Buddhism that actually exists in the real world.
Peter jackson ( talk) 16:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
PS Imagine the Christianity project almost entirely consisting of liberal Christians. that's the sort of analogy to think about. Peter jackson ( talk) 16:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
[1] is an interesting comment by a longstanding editor (now retired). Although similar things happen in real life, it might be considered that a system that results in people considering it advances their cause to misbehave & be punished must have something wrong with it. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the system of haggling to reach "consensus" is, I think, fairly predictable:
Mark this page historical.
ArbCom should focus on its original mandate, conduct issues. It should allow MedCom to make more binding decisions, and start referring more things to there.
Establish an explicit Content ArbCom as outlined above
Keep the content side of dispute resolution as is. Focus more time and effort on streamlining and promoting the current conduct dispute resolution methods and find ways of developing more. Hopefully this will allow the content to fall into place with fewer conduct issues disrupting processes.
That this ArbCom led RfC be closed, and a new community led Requests for comment/Content dispute resolution be opened. This will reduce potential drama over issues related to ArbCom, and allow a more focussed discussion.
(a) That content be decided by consensus as it is (in theory) now.
(b) That admins and other potential mediators play an active part in steering the consensus process when it's off the rails, whether invited by the parties or not.
(c) That consensus, once reached, be enforceable until a new consensus is reached.
(d) That admins be permitted to use good judgement to effect a suitable interim solution while consensus is still being reached.
(e) That disputes about what consensus has been reached be recognized as clearly distinct from either content disputes and conduct issues, and be settled relatively quickly by admins.
(f) That complaints about conduct are made to admins and dealt with quickly and effectively.
(g) That any decision, action or inaction by admins be appealable first to the wider admin community, and then to ArbCom.
(h) That there is no need for ArbCom to accept disputes between editors in any circumstances except as described in (g).
(i) That disruptive behaviour must be dealt with firmly when and where it happens, and never rewarded in any way (for example by gaining attention or being considered evidence of an absence of consensus).
The structure for creation of ad hoc groups to deal with specific matters of policy interpretation and application, which are the instances which prove most problematic here, be created. This structure might include the following options:
See: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Committees. Simple, straightforward, use the same skeleton structure of the AC itself. People can consensus out, poll out, vote out, anything that they'd like, all they like--but this puts final content and policy arbiters selected by the community for the community as a final wall to settle disputes.
We just had one in the date delinking case, which, although it had issues with management, proved useful. Content issues are the communities to solve not arb-coms, but that doesn't mean arb-com can't guide and manage a path for teh community to find consensus. I think Ryan would be a useful person to talk to regarding setting up a process through which to manage such polls and rfc's. I think he'd agree he learnt a lot regarding having an agreed end-game before launching, and also tight rules on canvassing and opening and closing. Many of these tasks can be automated, certainly the opening and closing and the canvassing. The end-game needs to be looked at more closely, but I think it is not beyond the means of arb-com to simply state that in certain binary issues a consensus can be determined by a certain %, the % variable depending on the issue, and also having a requirement for a quorom; I'd say the date delinking and the current poll at plot show that you're likely to get between 150 and 500 respondents depending upon where the issue is advertised. I think there is a viable process here which would help ease tensions: the input of arbitrators/mediators in settling what the issue is and composing a question or questions for the community, and providing solutions in the format of if x we do 1, if y we do 2, if z we do 3. I think we also need to establish better practises for teh definition of "no consensus" and what it means. I'd certainly like to see some sort of return to "open polls" on issues. This was a system where we used to leave polls open for a long time, and I think we could return to that with some sort of arb-com input. Take date-autoformatting. Even though the poll is closed, there is nothing to be lost from leaving the poll open, and reviewing it periodically to see if consensus has changed. This also would allow a funnel for frustration. If we had a list of such open polls at the bottom of cent and other areas, this would allow community memebers to have their voice heard and in a sense act as a "petition". Take for example WP:N, which is typically a cause of issue. If we had a page where people could sign their support or opposition to the very principle notability enshrines, we could quite quickly defuse a vast number of debates. We could simply point people to the appropriate section of the open poll or petition. Obviously we fall into accusations of "not a democracy", but the obvious retort is "not a battleground". This system has been used on Wikipedia before so it isn't outlandish, it formed the basis for a number of naming conventions. All we'd be doing is marrying it up to actual arbitration. Food for thought. I certainly think this is an area arb-com/mediators could become more useful, in a role akin to election observers or peacemakers. Hiding T 10:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I am in concurrence with the majority of commentators here and for most of the reasons they give for ArbCom not taking up responsibility for content disputes. It’s really much wiser to keep the venues for addressing editor behavior and content disputes separate and distinct in their purposes. I do agree with John Carter and others that having a dedicated body to work on content- and sourcing-related questions would be very beneficial; however, it may be that what is needed is to give some new procedural tools to MedCom rather than create a new organization.
As structured, MedCom is a small organization of members who are good at mediating; they are, however, too few to be even semi-expert in all areas of knowledge. (The same can also likely be said of those editors who actively watch and participate in any neutral capacity.) What I would recommend would be that a formal and explicit mechanism be crafted for the MedCom to draw on the active Wikiprojects themselves. IMO, the projects are usually the best places to resolve reliable source issues on their topic area – and once consensus is achieved to maintain it. They are likewise usually a good source for neutral, uninvolved subject-matter experts (SMEs) – and in my experience content disputes most often arise among somewhat knowledgeable but non-expert editors (and often in places where these SMEs aren’t watching); theirs would be a sort of “friend of the court” role – not as advocates or decisionmakers, but to develop a professionally informed advisory recommendation to the MedCom. However, where the content dispute is tied to an honest disagreement on interpretation of policies, guidelines and such – which are rarely completely clear as they are usually in a state of flux – then the community active on those pages need to be requested to develop a clarification.
This user has made no WP contributions since 15th April, so very likely hasn't heard of this RfC, so I'm acting as proxy here on my own initiative. The user was working on a proposal, which can be found at User:FimusTauri/RfCwO. I've no idea whether the user would in fact consider it sufficiently finished to be worth proposing here. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Editors, especially those with experience in content disputes, should help out in disputes about content of which they don't have a strong opinion.
No new policy or bureaucracy is needed.
Strengthen existing Third Opinion and request for comment procedures by setting up a list of editors willing to comment (categorised by topic); and then using a bot operating on a cab rank principle to ask those people to comment on specific third opinion / RFC requests. This would increase third party involvement in disputes, increase randomness of involvement (less self-selection might mean more neutrality, on average) and help resolve smaller ones. The big ones (like political choices over place names, say) need something else.