(this may or may not be a vote, depending on your wikipolitiks) (summary created by Daniel Quinlan, trying to determine whether there is any consensus)
I would like the request that User:The Cunctator be de-sysoped -- or could someone tell me why they should be a sysop. Recently they undeleted the santorum page, after the page had been deleted after the normal vfd procedure, and undeletion talk favored keeping the page deleted. Then they decide, unilaterally again, that a certain page listed on vfd shouldn't be deleted and proceeded to remove the vfd boilerplate from that page. When this change was reverted, they instead moved the boilerplate to the bottom of the page -- leading to small edit war over the position of the notice. Another sysop stepped in a protected the page, however 12 hours later The Cunctator unprotected the page (something that only sysops can do) and restored their edit. The Cunctator seems to believe that the vfd page is irrelevant and that he is not bound by it, or the communities consensus, in any way by. Beyond that, I don't trust their judgement, and good judgement is why someone is supposed to become a sysop in the first place. Maximus Rex 06:40, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I support this request. It is worth pointing out also that when questions were raised about The Cunctator's behavior in the edit war, the main reasoning behind his remarks in his own defense were along the lines that different rules should apply to administrators than apply to other users. This is not the sort of attitude we should foster here. - Hephaestos 14:01, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I cannot honestly oppose this request. In my view he is a valuable contributor. But we should be able to require that sysops, either accede to the policies formed in consensus which even non-sysops have an equal input, or in the contrary case act consistently to change the policy, but remain within the policy while the change is being debated. This is just my view. Others may legitimately disagree. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 14:11, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)
He should receive a specific warning before any further action his taken. His actions, while inappropriate, were not substantially so. Other sysops have made more serious violations, and no action has been taken whatsoever against them. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I think The Cunctator's behaviour over a long period has been way beyond what is acceptable for a sysop (his antics on ignoring the consensus on the redesigned front page was just one example). But using sysop powers to unprotect a page so that he could, not for the first time, ignore everyone else, was abuse of his powers. On its own it was highly questionable, but given it was not the first, or the second, or the third, time he acted in gross breach of consensus, I think there is no other alternative now but to remove his administratorship. FearÉIREANN 22:03, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
In my estimation, The Cunctator has not been using his administratorship well, so I support removing it. Most notably, he repeatedly unprotected a page where he was actively involved in an edit war and seems to have been the main instigator. 4 or 5 different sysops attempted to re-protect the page, but The Cunctator repeatedly unprotected it. This is way over the line. I am concerned that sysops who abuse of their status can cause more harm to Wikipedia than users, drive more people away, waste more time, etc. Daniel Quinlan 00:17, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
Protecting the page, as one can see by reviewing the edit history, certainly did effect the editing of RickK, Angela, Fuzheado etc. Just not you. The sole diffence here is that they are all responsible administrators. You are not.
After no edits to the page for ten hours, you and Rick reverted each other six times in an hour, and there was no reason to think either of you would stop. So I protected the page, stated so on the talk page and on Wikipedia:Protected page, and thought that was the end of it. The next step should have been a resolution of differences on the talk page, not a unilateral decision by you to continue it twelve hours later with no discussion whatsoever.
Now you compound the situation with an outright lie, claiming that nobody discussed your de-adminship with you before bringing it here, when I specifically did so on that article's talk page and it is still there for all to see.
You ask JTD for an explicit listing of complaints against you, I think, in an effort to buy time. Unilateral undeletion of an article voted for deletion, the fiasco over the redesign of the main page, heck nobody has time to list every single one of your screwups, there've been so many (although you've done a fair job of archiving them yourself). I repeat the question I asked on the mailing list and never got an answer to: why on earth were you ever made an admin at all? - Hephaestos 05:31, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hi Cunc et al, I've been following this little dustup, and I'd like to share my point of view on the events. First off, here's my understanding of what has occurred:
This is, I believe, the undisputed sequence of events. Now, those who want Cunc's de-adminship have one interpretation of these events, and Cunc (and perhaps also Eclecticology, who seems to support him on the mailing list) have a different interpretation.
The anti-Cunc interpretation:
The Cunc interpretation (which has been affirmed by Cunc on my talk page):
Now here's my opinion:
In the end, I perceive that Cunc's understanding of how and why to use protection in the resolving of disputes is out of sync with my understanding of the community consensus on these issues, which I believe I share with Maximus Rex, Angela, Hephaestos, Jiang, Daniel Quinlan and Cimon avaro. I accept Cunc's claim that he believes his actions were reasonable, but nonetheless, I do not oppose the removal of his sysop privileges (but will I not actively seek such action). -- Cyan 05:50, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I oppose this request. silsor 06:44, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
I have been reluctant to support this motion but I find unprotecting a page six times in a row grievously disrespectful to one's fellow admins as well as being in clear contravention of due process for resolving conflicts. In favor. -- Viajero 22:31, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Oppose. The Cunctator seems to have complied with the proposed policy regarding no more than three reversions and the protection seems to have been applied too early (just), when discussion would have been a better course and did resolve the matter. The Cunctator, while the presence of the notice is not mandatory it belongs at the top even though the edit had already served the purpose of alerting those interested in the VfD process. Your editing after the protection was applied, even though I think the protection was done too early, and your repeated protection/deprotection issue, were not appropriate and shouldn't be repeated. Ask others to intervene instead - this time they would have told you that you were acting foolishly, as you were. Jamesday 16:32, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think that Cunc needs to explain himself BEFORE making a major edit. He cut lists from the Philadelphia article and plaed them in about six other articles. He did the same thing, to about the same extent, in the New York, New York article.
In the New York article, he moved the history off to a separate page and then gave one sentence as a summary, which isn't much. Mav told me not to do that about a month ago, unless I make a good "news style" summary.
And I don't see why the Timeline of New York city crimes deserves its own article.
Meh, I haven't voted yet. I'm still trying to make up my mind on him. WhisperToMe 00:06, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Heaph is asking tc a question I repeat the question I asked on the mailing list and never got an answer to: why on earth were you ever made an admin at all? -
I think Haeph, that is not a question to ask to tc. Because it is not him to justify why he has been thought worth of trust by a communitee. It is to the communitee you should ask this question. When a long time employee is called by a new boss who want to fire him, the new boss will pile up a list of griefs, he will not request from the employee to justify why he has been hired in the first place. First because the employee "cannot" answer that question other than by "well, I had some good references, and the previous boss thought I would do the job" and second because the employee is not responsible for having been chosen. the responsability relies on the employer, here the community. Tc has been a nearly 3 years old contributor, and probably somewhere like 2 years old sysop. He was probably made sysop after the upgrade to phase II, and likely, the sysoping was either suggested by a group of core contributors, or by Jimbo himself, and in any case, it was supported by Jimbo at that time. So, I suggest you ask the old contributors still here, Stephen Gilbert, Astronomo, I suggest you contact Koyannis, and mostly I recommand you ask Jimbo, ~why on earth did they ever made tc an admin at all :-) Anthère
This is just my perception. Tc role is to break
groupthink, to insure community is not taking the first visible and thought correct decision. Usually, the first easy solution, is the easiest one, and it is easy for a community to quickly agree on it, forgetting to look for other solutions. To avoid hasty decision, most communities relying on consensus need someone (or a group of someone) to question decisions taken, a devil advocate. This is an essential element. But this is a dangerous state for a person, because this person finds itself always in the role of complaining, of grumbling, of opposing. Often, and it is the case in my firm, the role is hold anonymously (that is the little white box where you put the anonymous complaint or suggestion); another way to avoid someone becoming the black sheep, is that this role turns in a community, several members taking the role one after the other. I believe tc is taken more than his share, and is now bearing the consequences for holding that essential role, which is often not recognised. I know it is tough to have someone always opposing, but that is one of the ways to avoid hasty decisions. The second benefit (after the one suggesting that the solution found is perhaps not the best one) is to nurture those who do not dare to speak, because they see the flow of dominators going over a discussion, and they dare not speaking up their mind. All to aware speaking up their mind might results in bad consequences for them. And, all to often, this is true. In voicing in very loud voice, and convincing voice he does not agree, tc helps those who are timid to speak; in not saying why a decision is wrong, he fosters thoughts in other people minds; so that other people, not him, find a good solution, and are proud of it. In all communities, there are those who are noisy, and those who are shy. Tc nurtures the shy ones; he gives them protection, shield them a bit, to allow them to speak.
Whatever what you can think of him (and I sure recognise these actions may be irritating), I think those who made him sysops recognise this ability in tc.
Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
We are first building an encyclopedia. Building a community is a side project, as it helps building the real project. TC has been helping to build the main project, I am sure everyone will recognise this. Many people also think he has been building the community as well. I certainly do. Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This is what some of you are suggesting. Do not answer "but no, we are not excluding him, we are just unsysoping him". That is the same. There are two communities on Wikipedia. The community of trusted users, who are sysops, and the community of non trusted ones (essentially, though I agree there are a few sparse elements who are trusted), the non sysops. You are excluding him from the trusted community, from which he has been part for three years. That is, the importance of building the community is placed above the importance of building the encyclopedia. I regret this. In any cases, I think exclusion, be it from the trusted or from the other community is a *major* act, and not to be done quickly, i also suggest that oldbies and Jimbo's opinion is taking into consideration Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
::this is just plain and unjustified rudeness. It is pitifull to see a good argument being spoiled by rude langage.
I will not say anything about the fault itself, because I know not enough the en rules to be able to weight precisely enough the amound of the misdeed. The important point indeed is that some do not trust tc, and this is a fact. If some think he has done wrong, that must be acknowledged. But wrongs and punishment are two different things, which must be evaluated separatly. I am glad Cyan gave a two sided perspective for that, showing that the situation is not a clear as some would like to say. Whatever the conclusion (fault, or not fault), to my opinion, a punishment should be at the level of the fault, or the exclusion should be at the level of the lack of trust. That is, just unsysoping is quite a final act. There are several options at hand. First, there could be a warning, and I believe this discussion sure is a warning. Second there could be a limited in time desysoping just to show displeasure (perhaps a week, perhaps a month, dunno); and most important, there could be a limitation in sysop powers themselve. Do we trust tc to fight against vandalism (ie, to block ip) ? do we trust tc to delete a page that has been vandalised (ie, to delete a page, or to do an administration deletion) ? do we trust tc to protect a page (ie, like in an edit war). These are thoughts I offer, as I believe, just as when we ban someone, there are warning, there are steps. It is never black and white. We might trust him to stop doing on the things we think him doing bad. Perhaps he could be ask not to use protection/unprotection for a while, but be allowed to delete or undelete. This is just a suggestion.
Error description first; estimate whether it is a fault or a mistake; if a fault estimation of the gravity and risk for the encyclopedia itself; depending on the risk, decision over a punishment. One step at a time would be nice. Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Jimbo has appointed the Cunctator to a wikiquette arbitration committee (see
the mailing list) which, along with this
post, pretty much puts an end to the possibility of the Cunctator being de-sysoped.
Maximus Rex 22:18, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Well, I think all those who intend to express an opinion have done so, and it is therefore time to take the next step. There are two ways this can go: further pursuit of de-sysoping, or closing the matter and archiving the discussion.
I don't believe that developers have the responsibility of deciding when a user can no longer be trusted with sysop privileges. Therefore, the next step in the "de-sysoping" direction is for someone who actively seeks de-sysoping to collect evidence and make a case to Jimbo. (Any such case should note the dissenting opinions expressed here.) If no one will do this within 3 days, I will take it as a sign that the matter is considered closed, and will perform the required archiving (unless I hear different from someone). -- Cyan 22:16, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It seems I was too hasty in saying that all those who intend to express an opinion have done so. I will archive this discusison when it receives no posts for three consecutive days (unless I hear different from someone). -- Cyan 05:20, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Back to Requests for adminship/The Cunctator.
(this may or may not be a vote, depending on your wikipolitiks) (summary created by Daniel Quinlan, trying to determine whether there is any consensus)
I would like the request that User:The Cunctator be de-sysoped -- or could someone tell me why they should be a sysop. Recently they undeleted the santorum page, after the page had been deleted after the normal vfd procedure, and undeletion talk favored keeping the page deleted. Then they decide, unilaterally again, that a certain page listed on vfd shouldn't be deleted and proceeded to remove the vfd boilerplate from that page. When this change was reverted, they instead moved the boilerplate to the bottom of the page -- leading to small edit war over the position of the notice. Another sysop stepped in a protected the page, however 12 hours later The Cunctator unprotected the page (something that only sysops can do) and restored their edit. The Cunctator seems to believe that the vfd page is irrelevant and that he is not bound by it, or the communities consensus, in any way by. Beyond that, I don't trust their judgement, and good judgement is why someone is supposed to become a sysop in the first place. Maximus Rex 06:40, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I support this request. It is worth pointing out also that when questions were raised about The Cunctator's behavior in the edit war, the main reasoning behind his remarks in his own defense were along the lines that different rules should apply to administrators than apply to other users. This is not the sort of attitude we should foster here. - Hephaestos 14:01, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I cannot honestly oppose this request. In my view he is a valuable contributor. But we should be able to require that sysops, either accede to the policies formed in consensus which even non-sysops have an equal input, or in the contrary case act consistently to change the policy, but remain within the policy while the change is being debated. This is just my view. Others may legitimately disagree. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 14:11, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)
He should receive a specific warning before any further action his taken. His actions, while inappropriate, were not substantially so. Other sysops have made more serious violations, and no action has been taken whatsoever against them. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I think The Cunctator's behaviour over a long period has been way beyond what is acceptable for a sysop (his antics on ignoring the consensus on the redesigned front page was just one example). But using sysop powers to unprotect a page so that he could, not for the first time, ignore everyone else, was abuse of his powers. On its own it was highly questionable, but given it was not the first, or the second, or the third, time he acted in gross breach of consensus, I think there is no other alternative now but to remove his administratorship. FearÉIREANN 22:03, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
In my estimation, The Cunctator has not been using his administratorship well, so I support removing it. Most notably, he repeatedly unprotected a page where he was actively involved in an edit war and seems to have been the main instigator. 4 or 5 different sysops attempted to re-protect the page, but The Cunctator repeatedly unprotected it. This is way over the line. I am concerned that sysops who abuse of their status can cause more harm to Wikipedia than users, drive more people away, waste more time, etc. Daniel Quinlan 00:17, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
Protecting the page, as one can see by reviewing the edit history, certainly did effect the editing of RickK, Angela, Fuzheado etc. Just not you. The sole diffence here is that they are all responsible administrators. You are not.
After no edits to the page for ten hours, you and Rick reverted each other six times in an hour, and there was no reason to think either of you would stop. So I protected the page, stated so on the talk page and on Wikipedia:Protected page, and thought that was the end of it. The next step should have been a resolution of differences on the talk page, not a unilateral decision by you to continue it twelve hours later with no discussion whatsoever.
Now you compound the situation with an outright lie, claiming that nobody discussed your de-adminship with you before bringing it here, when I specifically did so on that article's talk page and it is still there for all to see.
You ask JTD for an explicit listing of complaints against you, I think, in an effort to buy time. Unilateral undeletion of an article voted for deletion, the fiasco over the redesign of the main page, heck nobody has time to list every single one of your screwups, there've been so many (although you've done a fair job of archiving them yourself). I repeat the question I asked on the mailing list and never got an answer to: why on earth were you ever made an admin at all? - Hephaestos 05:31, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hi Cunc et al, I've been following this little dustup, and I'd like to share my point of view on the events. First off, here's my understanding of what has occurred:
This is, I believe, the undisputed sequence of events. Now, those who want Cunc's de-adminship have one interpretation of these events, and Cunc (and perhaps also Eclecticology, who seems to support him on the mailing list) have a different interpretation.
The anti-Cunc interpretation:
The Cunc interpretation (which has been affirmed by Cunc on my talk page):
Now here's my opinion:
In the end, I perceive that Cunc's understanding of how and why to use protection in the resolving of disputes is out of sync with my understanding of the community consensus on these issues, which I believe I share with Maximus Rex, Angela, Hephaestos, Jiang, Daniel Quinlan and Cimon avaro. I accept Cunc's claim that he believes his actions were reasonable, but nonetheless, I do not oppose the removal of his sysop privileges (but will I not actively seek such action). -- Cyan 05:50, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I oppose this request. silsor 06:44, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
I have been reluctant to support this motion but I find unprotecting a page six times in a row grievously disrespectful to one's fellow admins as well as being in clear contravention of due process for resolving conflicts. In favor. -- Viajero 22:31, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Oppose. The Cunctator seems to have complied with the proposed policy regarding no more than three reversions and the protection seems to have been applied too early (just), when discussion would have been a better course and did resolve the matter. The Cunctator, while the presence of the notice is not mandatory it belongs at the top even though the edit had already served the purpose of alerting those interested in the VfD process. Your editing after the protection was applied, even though I think the protection was done too early, and your repeated protection/deprotection issue, were not appropriate and shouldn't be repeated. Ask others to intervene instead - this time they would have told you that you were acting foolishly, as you were. Jamesday 16:32, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think that Cunc needs to explain himself BEFORE making a major edit. He cut lists from the Philadelphia article and plaed them in about six other articles. He did the same thing, to about the same extent, in the New York, New York article.
In the New York article, he moved the history off to a separate page and then gave one sentence as a summary, which isn't much. Mav told me not to do that about a month ago, unless I make a good "news style" summary.
And I don't see why the Timeline of New York city crimes deserves its own article.
Meh, I haven't voted yet. I'm still trying to make up my mind on him. WhisperToMe 00:06, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Heaph is asking tc a question I repeat the question I asked on the mailing list and never got an answer to: why on earth were you ever made an admin at all? -
I think Haeph, that is not a question to ask to tc. Because it is not him to justify why he has been thought worth of trust by a communitee. It is to the communitee you should ask this question. When a long time employee is called by a new boss who want to fire him, the new boss will pile up a list of griefs, he will not request from the employee to justify why he has been hired in the first place. First because the employee "cannot" answer that question other than by "well, I had some good references, and the previous boss thought I would do the job" and second because the employee is not responsible for having been chosen. the responsability relies on the employer, here the community. Tc has been a nearly 3 years old contributor, and probably somewhere like 2 years old sysop. He was probably made sysop after the upgrade to phase II, and likely, the sysoping was either suggested by a group of core contributors, or by Jimbo himself, and in any case, it was supported by Jimbo at that time. So, I suggest you ask the old contributors still here, Stephen Gilbert, Astronomo, I suggest you contact Koyannis, and mostly I recommand you ask Jimbo, ~why on earth did they ever made tc an admin at all :-) Anthère
This is just my perception. Tc role is to break
groupthink, to insure community is not taking the first visible and thought correct decision. Usually, the first easy solution, is the easiest one, and it is easy for a community to quickly agree on it, forgetting to look for other solutions. To avoid hasty decision, most communities relying on consensus need someone (or a group of someone) to question decisions taken, a devil advocate. This is an essential element. But this is a dangerous state for a person, because this person finds itself always in the role of complaining, of grumbling, of opposing. Often, and it is the case in my firm, the role is hold anonymously (that is the little white box where you put the anonymous complaint or suggestion); another way to avoid someone becoming the black sheep, is that this role turns in a community, several members taking the role one after the other. I believe tc is taken more than his share, and is now bearing the consequences for holding that essential role, which is often not recognised. I know it is tough to have someone always opposing, but that is one of the ways to avoid hasty decisions. The second benefit (after the one suggesting that the solution found is perhaps not the best one) is to nurture those who do not dare to speak, because they see the flow of dominators going over a discussion, and they dare not speaking up their mind. All to aware speaking up their mind might results in bad consequences for them. And, all to often, this is true. In voicing in very loud voice, and convincing voice he does not agree, tc helps those who are timid to speak; in not saying why a decision is wrong, he fosters thoughts in other people minds; so that other people, not him, find a good solution, and are proud of it. In all communities, there are those who are noisy, and those who are shy. Tc nurtures the shy ones; he gives them protection, shield them a bit, to allow them to speak.
Whatever what you can think of him (and I sure recognise these actions may be irritating), I think those who made him sysops recognise this ability in tc.
Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
We are first building an encyclopedia. Building a community is a side project, as it helps building the real project. TC has been helping to build the main project, I am sure everyone will recognise this. Many people also think he has been building the community as well. I certainly do. Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This is what some of you are suggesting. Do not answer "but no, we are not excluding him, we are just unsysoping him". That is the same. There are two communities on Wikipedia. The community of trusted users, who are sysops, and the community of non trusted ones (essentially, though I agree there are a few sparse elements who are trusted), the non sysops. You are excluding him from the trusted community, from which he has been part for three years. That is, the importance of building the community is placed above the importance of building the encyclopedia. I regret this. In any cases, I think exclusion, be it from the trusted or from the other community is a *major* act, and not to be done quickly, i also suggest that oldbies and Jimbo's opinion is taking into consideration Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
::this is just plain and unjustified rudeness. It is pitifull to see a good argument being spoiled by rude langage.
I will not say anything about the fault itself, because I know not enough the en rules to be able to weight precisely enough the amound of the misdeed. The important point indeed is that some do not trust tc, and this is a fact. If some think he has done wrong, that must be acknowledged. But wrongs and punishment are two different things, which must be evaluated separatly. I am glad Cyan gave a two sided perspective for that, showing that the situation is not a clear as some would like to say. Whatever the conclusion (fault, or not fault), to my opinion, a punishment should be at the level of the fault, or the exclusion should be at the level of the lack of trust. That is, just unsysoping is quite a final act. There are several options at hand. First, there could be a warning, and I believe this discussion sure is a warning. Second there could be a limited in time desysoping just to show displeasure (perhaps a week, perhaps a month, dunno); and most important, there could be a limitation in sysop powers themselve. Do we trust tc to fight against vandalism (ie, to block ip) ? do we trust tc to delete a page that has been vandalised (ie, to delete a page, or to do an administration deletion) ? do we trust tc to protect a page (ie, like in an edit war). These are thoughts I offer, as I believe, just as when we ban someone, there are warning, there are steps. It is never black and white. We might trust him to stop doing on the things we think him doing bad. Perhaps he could be ask not to use protection/unprotection for a while, but be allowed to delete or undelete. This is just a suggestion.
Error description first; estimate whether it is a fault or a mistake; if a fault estimation of the gravity and risk for the encyclopedia itself; depending on the risk, decision over a punishment. One step at a time would be nice. Anthère 07:59, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Jimbo has appointed the Cunctator to a wikiquette arbitration committee (see
the mailing list) which, along with this
post, pretty much puts an end to the possibility of the Cunctator being de-sysoped.
Maximus Rex 22:18, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Well, I think all those who intend to express an opinion have done so, and it is therefore time to take the next step. There are two ways this can go: further pursuit of de-sysoping, or closing the matter and archiving the discussion.
I don't believe that developers have the responsibility of deciding when a user can no longer be trusted with sysop privileges. Therefore, the next step in the "de-sysoping" direction is for someone who actively seeks de-sysoping to collect evidence and make a case to Jimbo. (Any such case should note the dissenting opinions expressed here.) If no one will do this within 3 days, I will take it as a sign that the matter is considered closed, and will perform the required archiving (unless I hear different from someone). -- Cyan 22:16, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It seems I was too hasty in saying that all those who intend to express an opinion have done so. I will archive this discusison when it receives no posts for three consecutive days (unless I hear different from someone). -- Cyan 05:20, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Back to Requests for adminship/The Cunctator.