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(undent) You know, the more I listen to these arguments, the more convinced I am that 'original research' is just the wrong phrase, because it traps editors in an entirely incorrect model of behavior. The correct model to use here is the journalistic one, not the scientific one: we shouldn't be excluding original research, we should be excluding bad reporting. The '1+1=2?' issues are tricky to address as issues of science. heck, mathematicians know that 1+1=2 only under a given set of metrical preconditions, and there has been a lot of actual original research in mathematics distinguishing where it is true and where it is false. But from a journalistic perspective, the questions is a non-issue, because a good journalist uses common sense without worrying about the ontological basis for it. e.g. a good reporter will happily report that 1 male + 1 female = 2 people, but will not report that 1 male + 1 Asian = 2 people; common sense dictates the first, but not the second. and note, the first statement might be wrong (see hermaphrodite), and may get corrected in the future, but a reporter isn't obliged to worry about that - all he needs to do is report, in good faith and with common sense, as best possible.
so let's note out limitations:
what we have is common sense, and common access to reason, and the ability to discuss things. If I thought it had a snowball's chance in hell I'd suggest that we scrap the entire 'original research' concept and replace it with a journalism 101 primer. it would save us a tremendous amount of wikilawyering in countless pages. -- Ludwigs2 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Ludwig2 you are my freakin hero. I wish you had been present for some disagreements I've had on articles with editors who DEMANDED citations for EVERYTHING regardless of commonsense or concensus and removed anything and everything not cited or cited with a reference that they did not think "reliable enough", or put in citations for info that was clearly wrong; ie- an editor decided that a hamlet (place) in a particular incorporated town had a couple of references that called the hamlet a "town" and therefore demanded that the hamlet article refer to the hamlet as a "town" even though many of us tried to explain that legally it wasnt a town but that editor demanded that the only way to remove his edit without it being "vandalism" was to have a better source that specifically said "hamlet X is not a town". Camelbinky ( talk) 14:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
User Mattise writes "I am not making a connection. I do not think "homosexual transsexualism" is used by any professionally accepted diagnostic system. As I said, I think the WHO category above is the closest you will come for an RS, in answer to your question above." diff The WHO category refered to is ego-dystonic homosexuality. Mattise cites the ICD 10 [1] If one reads what the source actually says...
Egodystonic Sexual Orientation The gender identity or sexual preference (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or prepubertal) is not in doubt, but the individual wishes it were different because of associated psychological and behavioural disorders, and may seek treatment in order to change it. [2]
Do you all think making this connection based on the above source is Original research?-- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I left out that this appears on the talk page of the article Homosexual transsexual under Talk:Homosexual_transsexual#Ego_Dystonic_homosexuality.-- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
For all of those reasons I think that what Mattisse asserts in this instance is their own original research, which is in contradiction with very acessible reliable secondary sources. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please help me at this article? I've tried several times to tell the editor that simply citing a lyrics directory and a dictionary is not a good way to go about explaining a song's content, especially in such detail, but the user just won't listen. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 16:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi — An editor has deleted the following paragraph of the article World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories, stating: "remove WP:OR and WP:SYN. Find a secondary source that says this. Don't cite primary sources." [4] (The article now contains the old paragraph again, with a {{fact}} tag, and an informal warning about edit-warring has been issued.)
Given that the sequence of the publications that are included in the paragraph is obvious from the publication dates, can this possibly be regarded as WP:OR or WP:SYN? Cs32en 18:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm putting together a new article. The accepted definitive source on the subject uses pseudonyms for a few of the involved people, because at the time of original publication (1966) they were still alive and there were privacy concerns, although not defamation concerns because the real names are used in public court records. In a re-published (2001) edition, the author reveals the real names behind all pseudonyms but one. I have an original newspaper article which, based on the circumstances of the legal action and identifiers in both the original article and the book (age and occupation, with no one else involved in the legal situation having both the same age and occupation and no one else remaining unidentified), includes the person's real name. Any OR problem with my using the real name in the article? Otto4711 ( talk) 22:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
For several days now a couple of editors have been trying to add the following material to the hasbara article:
In 1977, recently elected Likud Prime Minister, Menachem Begin named Shmuel Katz to become the "Adviser to the Prime Minister of Information Abroad". (The New York Times, January 6 1978, Adviser to Begin quits)
I challenged the material, asking how the editor adding it knew it was related to hasbara. His response was that it was "obvious", or "common sense", or "seems too coincidental to be OR". Another editor eventually brought a different source related Katz to hasbara; specifically that he had commented on the topic in 2001, and at that time encouraged Ariel Sharon to create a permanent department for it. They are now using this second citation as a pretext for including the first citation, and the material from it. I have pointed out to them that this is classic WP:NOR/ WP:SYNTH, but they don't appear to care. I've brought the issue here for additional viewpoints. Jayjg (talk) 02:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I just learned of this. Excuse me, I do not believe this resolves all questions of SYNTH concerning this episode on the page. Please give me some time to get my diffs in order. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Specifically in light of Roland’s “good catch” (much thanks, by the way), I am now a less-than-happy-camper. What I particularly object to is the administrator’s SYNTH synopsis that my “response was that it was "obvious", or "common sense", or "seems too coincidental to be OR"” Had I known, I would have said my response was this, which was my initial response. It included specific, technical and relevant material concerning why my edit was not OR, and also pointed to his own OR assumptions, based on RSs on the article page. It includes, by the way, “the contemporaneous, specifically quoted (but awkward) phrase, “Adviser to the Prime Minister of Information Abroad””, that “ The editor also wanted to modify the phrasing into something more grammatical, but that would have been OR, based on the reference; he considered it may have come from a verbatim Hebrew phrase, and left the RS alone.”
We are now after that ‘good catch’ fact, but frankly, even three weeks ago it showed little, if any AGF on the part of the admin-user. So, with whom is a lowly (oppositely pov’d) editor supposed to be discussing hot-topic content? As the discussion continued, and after his shouted replies, I make note of this [7], and asked some specific questions regarding OR and SYNTH. But, even though the admin had already brought his factually inaccurate, SYNTH’ed description of the situation to the OR noticeboard, he does not even have the courtesy or etiquette to reply to simple questions at the original page. Those questions, I believe, are now sitting on this table, and they deserve a reply. I will not be pushed aside, like so many others, without a fair hearing of these issues; must we accept admins, who seem to stand on gaming and one POV, rather than on WP:Five Pillars? I am tired and frustrated that the project suffers excessively from certain admins, who appear to operate under the Mushroom Method of Management. I do not believe that this is what Wikipedia is supposed to be. I consider this an ‘incident’; does this stay here, or what? I am asking. Reasonably cool and civil, under the circumstances. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
This section relates to perceived WP:SYNTH, on this very page, documented and summarized succinctly here. It comes originally from Hasbara, best documented here. The page was subsequently renamed/moved. I have the following initial concerns:
Issue 1: Is it a violation of policy, or just a guideline etiquette-thingy, for an experienced administrator to fail to notify other editors that their week-long OR dispute has been brought to this page? The original page may fall within the general purview of Wikipedia:ARBPIA-type pages, and the editors are known, and ‘involved’.
Issue 2: Is it a violation of policy, or just another etiquette-type thingy (which one), when an administrator then severely synthesizes the opposing and unknowing editor’s reply, when he reports it for review on this page? The administrator’s original OR complaint has since been serendipitously disproven; the synth alleged here is yet to be discussed. Discussion of it is requested.
Issue 3. If the alleged synth is found to be the case. Does it thus constitute a violation of gaming by an experienced administrator? Or again, is it just some other wiki-stuff; please explain. As I understand things, this specific page is project-designed to help end the gaming, not be a hall of fame forum for it to be played.
Issue 4. Possibly elucidate on the policy/guideline-mandated balance between degrees of normative thinking and WP:OR, or the balance between the former and normative relations.
That is, at least, the way I see events and administrative decisions made. I do not consider these to be minor kerfuffle, and expect to find little catharsis; those arteries are already clogged. Regardless, I will notify relevant others shortly. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 07:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Outdent: Returning much refreshed, as well as more aware, I consider this well Resolved. Warmest regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 05:22, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I'd like to post to this page an interesting development over at the Internet homicide article. In the interest of pruning out some or any of the "OR" in it, User:Ludwigs2 has made a proposal to broaden and refocus its topic toward achieving this end. It's here: Talk:Internet_homicide#alternate proposal. If any readers of this noticeboard might have a spare moment to check it out and comment, we'll greatly appreciate it! ↜Just M E here , now 18:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Is an interview, published by a reliable source, a primary source or a self-published source (or both)? Would it be original research to use statements from such an interview, or can statements from such an interview be used in the article, following the guideline on self-published sources? Cs32en 16:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your answer and for the explanation of the issues involved! The following section from the article
has been replaced by:
The section of the interview that has been used for the article reads:
Cs32en 02:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Editors are discussing the insertion (or re-insertion) of a reference to Michael Moore in the featured article The Age of Reason. The Age of Reason is a book written by Thomas Paine, a 19th-century free-thinking writer who espoused liberal political views and was highly critical and contemptuous of the Christian establishment of his day. The disputed passage in the proposal is emboldened below.
Paine's text is still published today, one of the few eighteenth-century religious texts to be widely available,[96] and his style has continued to influence writers and critics. For example, the American filmmaker and writer Michael Moore's polemical style has been compared to Paine's and he has been called "the new Tom Paine" by the left.[Porton, Stuckey, Andersen] The book's message still resonates as well, evidenced by British atheist and author of God is Not Great Christopher Hitchens's statement that "if the rights of man are to be upheld in a dark time, we shall require an age of reason". His 2006 book on the Rights of Man ends with the claim that "in a time . . . when both rights and reason are under several kinds of open and covert attack, the life and writing of Thomas Paine will always be part of the arsenal on which we shall need to depend."[97]
Short version:
WP:SYN says: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."
The SYN steps in this case are:
Is it appropriate to add C to this Featured Article?
TLDR version:
There has already been an RfC on the question of including a reference to Moore, and four previously uninvolved editors have given their opinion that such a mention is inappropriate, against one in favour. The problem is that not one of the sources editors wish to cite to justify inclusion of this sentence mentions The Age of Reason, or the style in which it is written. They merely draw a generalised parallel between Paine and Moore as free-thinkers.
As per WP:SYN, it is not up to editors to establish a connection between Moore's literary style and The Age of Reason if no source connects Moore's literary style with this book. Yet editors are still trying to reword the Moore reference in the hope that it will pass muster in this FA.
It should be noted that The Age of Reason is really a book against the Christian religious establishment of its day. Michael Moore is not particularly anti-religious. He identifies as a Christian, and as a Catholic. Paine most certainly did not. So any points of similarity between Moore and Paine don't lie in the way they write about religion, but in their liberal political views. And Moore is not even mentioned as a writer in Paine's tradition, or someone whose style is similar to Paine's, in the article on Thomas Paine.
The mention of Christopher Hitchens, on the other hand, is entirely appropriate in The Age of Reason, because Hitchens has specifically referenced the book in his own writing, and expresses fairly similar views on organised religion, views which he himself feels are in Paine's tradition. Jayen 466 20:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
."A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."
Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked. To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented.
(edit conflict) Here is the sentence in question: [Paine's] style has continued to influence writers and critics. For example, the American filmmaker and writer Michael Moore's polemical style has been compared to Paine's and he has been called "the new Tom Paine" by the left." The sources say the same thing. Here are three examples of the sources we have been discussing:
There is a request for comment on this already so, take it there. There is no reason to forumshop, and forumhop. Keep discussion in one place.
Syn
ergy 00:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Sexologist and professor of psychology J. Michael Bailey does research related to transsexuality. One of his peer-reviewed papers on transwomen leads with the following plain statement (taken from the abstract):
Currently the predominant cultural understanding of male-to-female transsexualism is that all male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals are, essentially, women trapped in men's bodies.
— J. Michael Bailey, Kiira Triea. "What many transgender activists don't want you to know: and why you should know it anyway." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine. Autumn 2007 v50 i4 p521(14). PMID 17951886
An editor with a long history of tendentious editing (several failed informal mediations, two RfC/Us, two failed formal mediations, one rejected arbcom case...) has apparently decided that this is merely a statement of opinion, and that the predominant cultural understanding of this expert's field could be anything in the world. Consequently, he wants this presented in the style of "The president of the Flat Earth Society says..." instead of simply stating this fact -- a fact that is, as far as I can tell, uncontested by anyone except the editor in question; apparently his personal research (sample size of n=1) is a better way to determine what most Western people think of transwomen.
This is but one of today's problems at feminine essence theory of transsexuality; you'll find it at Talk:Feminine_essence_theory_of_transsexuality#Style. Others from today involve yet another discussion about what an author might have meant by contrasting "literally" with "figuratively", and how to figure out what a pronoun stands for. (Yes: this is from a middle-aged native English speaker.) Would someone else please take over? Almost everything on that 156K talk page is an effort to stop his misdirected efforts at "improving" the article.
I gave up on good faith during the last failed round of formal mediation and the RfC/U that ended it, but at this moment, remaining even barely civil is a strain, so I'm signing off for the night. If you want to help in the longer term, I can get copies of most of the relevant sources to you; please leave a note on the article's talk page. In the short term, common sense and a basic grasp of English grammar are likely to be more than sufficient. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 06:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Could we have external opinions here? A SPA editor wants to add breakdown of the costing of Woods' discharge from the US Army, using found sources that don't mention Woods and aren't cited in any third-party accounts of said discharge. Looks like WP:SYNTH to me. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 00:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
If I were to say that "Here with Me" was REO Speedwagon's last top 20 single on The Billboard Hot 100 according to this source [12], am I violating WP:OR? Based on the chart, it's clearly their last top 20 single, but it doesn't specifically say that. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Is the image currently illustrating Susan Boyle a violation of our original research policy? See discussion at talk page: [13] Dlabtot ( talk) 16:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
User-created images of this kind are a catch-22. If they only used a copyrighted work as a reference, they are likely derivative works and so a non-free use rationale is needed for the original work in addition to a license for the derivative. If they are completely original, then how do we verify that they accurately illustrate what they purport to? A non-notable artist's personal interpretation or expression of what someone looks like is of no encyclopedic value, so these are only worth using if they are accurate illustrations. So how do we evaluate that? Postdlf ( talk) 20:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
User-created portraits pose a very different problem than user-created images generally, because not everyone is capable of drawing a faithful portrait of a real individual, and unless the artist is notable, the portrait is only useful to the extent it is an accurate depiction of the real life subject. The exception to user-created images in WP:OR is not an invitation to invent facts, so any information the image purports to communicate must be verifiable. So at a minimum, we should always insist on references for a user-created portrait—on what did the creator base his depiction? Did he have a private sitting with the subject? Did he see the subject in public from a distance? Or did he somehow adapt it from one or more copyrighted sources, such as photographs or videos? This will help establish whether it is a copyvio, but will also help establish whether it is accurate. Is this something we can trust to individual article editors to determine? Or do we need a broader policy either forbidding such images across the board, or providing criteria for their usage? Postdlf ( talk) 22:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. It's not just people; how do we know this picture really is what a human lung looks like? How do we know that this photo really is an polyphemus moth, and not some other species that's been mis-identified? Questions that are relevant to user-created images:
I have a lot of sympathy for arguing on principle, but unless we want to codify image-recognition AI as part of WP:V, there comes a point at which we have to be pragmatic and say "yes, it looks like what it's supposed to be". -- GenericBob ( talk) 00:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
This map [14] is clearly original research -- see the talk page. (I also doubt that the creator drew the map, so there may be a copyvio issue here also, but that's not my point right now). Is this acceptable? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Any input welcome here. ╟─ Treasury Tag► contribs─╢ 15:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Should the following be removed? -- Drogonov ( talk) 16:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Technical problems
In May's version there is an error causes the computer to reboot when starting games that use gameguard as an anti-cheating device, unless Defence+ is turned off. This problem has been solved if the game hosts updated gameguard and have the Comodo Firewall updated to the June version at least. [1] The problem reappears for Vista users in the February version.
References
- ^ Comodo Forum thread "Gameguard + Comodo = Computer reboot ", begun April 23, 2008.
ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS?:-)
Users keep on adding content to this US Politician's article, and reverting my reverts that is claiming original research and wp:blp guidelines. My concern is that this user describes a speech by the politician as being "criticized due to her surprisingly poor use of grammar, and dramatic mispronunciation of several words including "congratulate," as well as the names of Percy Harvin and Coach Urban Meyer." User includes a link to a video of this speech but there is still no reliable source to back up the content.
Do not want to violate the three-revert rule here.
Thank You -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 17:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The main
article for "Swine Flu" is a synthesis of hundreds of articles approximately 140 (some up-to-date, and some not from official and unofficial sources), and puts forth the Wikipedia-generated conclusion that there are 909 925 world-wide cases of "Swine Flu", which disagrees with published figures by the World Health Organization.
Flipper9 (
talk) 18:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
2009 US swine flu outbreak table}}
, where previously the editors there were using a novel method for determining relative severity for organizing the table. —/
Mendaliv/
2¢/
Δ's/ 19:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
2009 swine flu outbreak table}}
; it's basically just
2009 swine flu outbreak in the United States, which is a blatant violation of SPS (see specifically the section on Wikipedia and its mirrors). Why is this done? Because the people at {{
2009 swine flu outbreak table}}
cannot source the totals used at {{
2009 US swine flu outbreak table}}
without referencing every single one of the 51 references currently in that table. Is this a
WP:SYN issue, or is it a
WP:RS issue? —/
Mendaliv/
2¢/
Δ's/ 00:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Just found this discussion here. Note that the template template:2009 swine flu outbreak table has now been nominated for deletion (discussion is here). There have been developments. Barnaby dawson ( talk) 17:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Most of this article relies on primary sources and presents them as if it is the truth. The concluding section shows that there is a considerable body of secondary sources debating various aspects of this topic, yet those sources are ignored for most of the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi there. There's a lively debate going on in Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Guidelines - Possible conflict with WP:NOR, in which a user contends that the use of cropped images of box art for video games (where we use the common portion of the box art shown on multiple releases of a game, but crop out the logos for a specific console) constitutes original research. Many of us in the project disagree, but now it's turning into a discussion about official policy, so I felt it might be good to ask this question here. Thanks. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 20:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
In trying to establish the notability of a creative artist based on work in museums, would refs like this, this, and this constitute OR? Also, if no one minds, I'll repeat what I asked here: would these be considered primary sources, and if so, do they contribute towards notability? Mbinebri talk ← 02:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm doing a GA assessment for TNA X Division Championship. There is a section on the belt that the author has written based on information put into the TNA belt designer's website over time. I'm not sure it's, first, verifiable, and second, since it is based on the author's observations of the belt and its design changes, if it qualifies as original research. Advice please? -- Auntieruth55 ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
"The photos come from a site selling replica belts - how do we know these photos are of the actual belts? They are primary sources which have not been reliably published, so are not much use for anything." First, click on this link: TNA Legends Championship. In that article is a source to TNA's website that introduces the Legends Championship. The pictures used are the exact same ones used on Millican's website. I believe there is a link as well to Millican's website and credit to him as well. On Millican's website, the link to all of TNA's championships states the TNA ??? Championship, showing that the title is the actual title. He has also been credited by TNA as the creator of all of their titles. All of their now used championships have been created in the last two years. Again your statement is questionable in itself. If someone takes a picture of one of the Olsen twins, and saying it is Ashely. How do you know it isn't Mary Kate? You don't unless you are in love with them. I'm friends with twins: Dakota and Shalen. When they graduated this year, I went and thought I was talking to Dakota when I was talking to Shalen. Unless it is said, you can't tell. So you can think you have the Mona Lisa, and say it is the Mona Lisa, but how do you know it is the Mona Lisa. The second statement, I can't understand. I'm guessing your asking how do we know Millcan is reliable? What is the point? Even if the pictures are of replicas, it is still the same design. There are multiple other photos of the champions with the belt on here. The belt looks the same as the ones in this article. Here are a few championship images: File:Petey Williams in London Sep 2008.jpg, File:Petey Williams Bloomington 062408.jpg, File:Daniels y AJ en Destination X.jpg, File:Shiek Abdul Bashir Chicago IL 121208.jpg, File:Shelly2009.JPG, File:Shelley2009.JPG, and File:Shellyxdivision2009.JPG which are all from TNA events so they are the actual championship. Plus one which is in the article not from Millcan: File:NWATNAFirstXTitle.jpg. "The X Division Championship has had two designs during its existence." Common sense. How do you know that you are real? You just know. If in the 7 year existence all images of the said championship have not changed between 2002 and 2007, then that is one. Through all of the programs TNA have had and done, the design has not changed between 2002 and 2007, then that is one. If TNA debuted a new shiny X Division Title because they said in another video that they would in May 2007, that is two. "The first design was used from June 2002 to May 2007." Took care of with previous statements. "The second design was introduced in May 2007 after the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA) ended their five-year partnership with TNA, which allowed the NWA to regain control over the NWA World Heavyweight and World Tag Team Championships that TNA had controlled since June 2002." Is covered with the NWA source. That source is covering the breaking up between TNA and the NWA. Not the design. "The new and current design of the championship was introduced on the May 16, 2007 edition of TNA's online podcast TNA Today. A belt was introduced, but was it a new design and is it the current design?" The sentence says new and current. The NWA and TNA broke up on May 13, 2007. Read the TNA World Heavyweight Championship for more information. Hell even its reign list. This statement is covered by the Youtube video, which is published directly by TNA Wrestling. They even include it on their website. That video is the May 16, 2007 edition of TNA's online podcast which they've done since 2006 called TNA Today which they continue to do. They take pride that it is the most viewed online show. That ref isn't about the design per-say. It is about the new belt, which is really a new design when a new belt is made. "Moreover, there is also an obvious NPOV dimension to consider - if these designs are not discussed in any reliable third-party sources, they should not be included, in line with WP:UNDUE." I state it isn't talked about, but I can't be sure. I don't go looking around sites because I can't tell what is reliable. So I don't search in things I don't know. Stuff I know I look in. So there could be some site out there that talks about it. I could search, but then we would have to move this to the reliable source noticeboard to determine that it is reliable when I find a source. I say chark this up to good faith and covered by common sense. You can see that my statements are true if you have eyes, and if you don't have eyes, then why are you on wikipedia trying to read a article you can't see and a better question is how the hell did you even get the computer on, get on the internet, on wikipedia, find the X title, and even know about the belt design section? Now I'm just having fun. I'm enjoying this conversation dude and I look forward to your reply.-- Will C 12:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Some discussion on intent may help resolve this. I was involved in the initial drafting of the Original Images section of this policy... the understanding at that time was that images (including photographs) should not be considered "sources" on their own... that images are "illustrations" of information discussed in the text. In order to discuss things in the text, we need to cite reliable (written) sources. Once that is done, then we can illustrate what we talk about by including an image of it. I hope this explanation clarifies things. Blueboar ( talk) 16:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
An editor recently added diff this statement to the article:
Shortly after GM soy products were introduced into Britain, soy allergies were seen to increase by 50%. Skin prick tests indicated some people were reacting to GM soy but not to GM free soy. [1]
I expanded this, and corrected the statement about skin tests, and the section now reads:
Worldwide, reports of allergies to all kinds of foods, particularly nuts, fish and shellfish, seem to be increasing, but it is not known if this reflects a genuine change in the risk of allergy, or an increased awareness of food allergies by the public. [2] A review published in 2008 stated that less than 1% of the population are allergic to soy. [3] In a set of skin prick tests performed in 2005, one person reacted to GM soy but not to GM free soy. [4]
Although I've now corrected the editor's misrepresentation of the source on skin prick testing and the text is now at least accurate, is this section still original research? Only the final article (the 2005 article by Yum) mentions GM food, and does not link this to rising food allergy rates. Tim Vickers ( talk) 17:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've rewritten the section and removed the study on soybeans. Tim Vickers ( talk) 23:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Is primary sourcing OK for Alexa traffic rankings? Please see
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 12:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is part of the chart below to illustrate what the Alexa sources are referencing, and how it is currently done. See this version of the article:
Wiki farm | Alexa rank (lower is better) [5] | Cost? | Ad? | Content license |
---|---|---|---|---|
@wiki | 96,000 [6] as of June 4, 2009. | Free | Yes | |
BrainKeeper | 630,000 [7] as of June 4, 2009. | Non-free Nonfree | ? | |
BusinessWiki | 550,000 [8] as of June 4, 2009. | Free (3 users) / Paid (14 days trial) | No | GPL |
Central Desktop | 21,000 [9] as of June 4, 2009. | Non-free Nonfree | ? | |
Wiki farm | Alexa. Approximative rank according to Alexa Internet. Click on the rank to get the last figures. | Cost? | Ad? | Content license |
I believe these are the relevant guidelines:
Tthere are many Wikipedia pages with Alexa traffic rankings. See the results of this search of Wikipedia articles. There is also an infobox with Alexa rank as one of the parameters: Template:Infobox Website. That infobox is on many pages. See Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox Website. They all use primary sourcing for the Alexa rank they show.
My question is whether this primary sourcing is OK for Alexa traffic ranks? I believe it is. I am not asking about whether the Alexa ranks are appropriate for this article. That is another issue, and not covered by this noticeboard. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 13:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently trying to deal with an apparent bid to introduce OR into Cyrus cylinder. There have been claims by various people that the Cyrus cylinder was "the world's first declaration of human rights." According to a 1999 book by Professor Josef Wiesehöfer, this claim can be traced back to a work published by the late Shah of Iran in 1967 that has since been taken up by various Iranian nationalists. An (apparently Iranian) editor, Nepaheshgar ( talk · contribs), disagrees; he has found a snippet on Google Books from the Christian Science Journal of 1911 which makes a similar argument (see [18]). On this basis, Nepaheshgar argues that the CSJ snippet should be included as, presumably, a refutation of Wiesehöfer's book. This seems to me to be rather obvious original research; it appears to be intended to make an argument - i.e. "Wiesehöfer is wrong" - that is not stated by the source (which was published 40 years before Wiesehöfer was even born!). I'd be interested to know what other editors think. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
From my perspective (i.e. ignorance of this topic ;-) it seems to me that we're going to a lot of trouble to make a controversy from two sources (MBE's 1911 comments and the Shah's book) that seem to largely agree with one another in their characterisation of the cylinder. Subject to one caveat, I'd be inclined to write it something like this:
Mary Baker Eddy, writing in 1911, described the cylinder as strengthening "the impression that Cyrus believed in the sacred rights of individual freedom". The Cyrus cylinder has been called "the world's first declaration of human rights" by some scholars,[45], a position that was strongly advocated by the pre-1979 Iranian regime[46]; Wiesehöfer credits the first appearance of this characterisation to a 1967 book, The White Revolution of Iran, by the then Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, who made Cyrus the Great a key figure in government ideology..."
Readers can then make up their own minds whether MBE is expressing the same idea as later Iranian sources, or merely a similar idea that doesn't contradict Wiesehöfer's statement. If this article was named Shah of Iran (historian), it might be important to get into the question of whether his characterisation was original, but it's not.
The caveat is that all I've been able to see of the MBE quote is a short snippet on Google Books that isn't enough for me to be certain of its context, so somebody would need to check the full version of the article to confirm that the quote is representative.
(I have some doubts about MBE's credentials as a historian, but then I can say the same for the Shah; it seems that this section is as much about the use of this particular interpretation for political ends as it is about the accuracy of that interpretation, so the relevance of both MBE and the Shah lies in the fact that they were influential figures with a wide readership, not in their credibility.) -- GenericBob ( talk) 02:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, Mary Baker Eddy isn't a good source for the description of an ancient artifact/text. So I have strong reservations about using her in the article at all. That aside, time's arrow only points in one direction, so a source written in 1911 cannot refute a source written in 1999. Nepaheshgar's argument is original research, and should not be included in the article. --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
(I should add that I posted here after a request by ChrisO on my talk page; but since I have participated in the discussion at Talk:Cyrus cylinder before, and it's still on my watchlist, I was planning to participate in this discussion anyway...) --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think an independent editor GenericBob has proposed the right solution and I am read to follow that formula. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there are a few misunderstandings here which I'll try to correct. I urge our uninvolved contributors here to look at Cyrus cylinder#As a charter of human rights to get some idea of the context of this discussion. Briefly, the prevailing view among academics is that interpreting the cylinder as a "charter of human rights" is wrong, but it's an interpretation that was advanced by the Shah's old regime and by Iranian nationalists since then. Wiesehofer states that this view originated with the Shah's regime in a 1967 book published under the Shah's name, and was subsequently heavily promoted by the Shah in connection with the 1971 celebrations of the 2,500th year of the Iranian monarchy. To address the three points raised by GenericBob:
(1) Our article doesn't quote the Shah at any point and certainly doesn't represent him as an expert. The Shah is only invoked through Wiesehofer's description of how his regime used the Cyrus cylinder as an instrument of propaganda.
(2) I don't think the CSJ snippet does address the question of "human rights". It speaks of sacred rights - i.e. rights bestowed by divine authority - not human rights. The CSJ piece doesn't mention "human rights" at all - it's purely Nepaheshgar's personal interpretation that it does. The CSJ piece also does not describe the cylinder itself as a "human rights charter", so it does not address the argument put forward by the Shah. Note that it says: "Cyrus believed in the sacred rights of individual freedom' and has a keen sense of human justice based upon the demands of principle." In other words, it is describing Cyrus's purported views, not the text of the cylinder. Nepaheshgar is reading into the CSJ piece something that simply isn't there.
(3) This does appear to be the key point. Nepaheshgar has for a long time objected to the (well-documented) view that the "human rights charter" interpretation is a product of the Shah's propaganda efforts. He is rather transparently trying to refute this by finding a source that he claims made this interpretation before the Shah. Except that it doesn't, as I've pointed out at (2).
Finally, I'd like to point out that we know absolutely nothing about who wrote the CSJ article. I've not found any other information about "Richard P. Verral" - assuming it's the name of a real person and not a pen name. He is mentioned again briefly in a 1947 edition of the Christian Science Sentinel, apparently as a speaker at some event. [27] He appears to have no published books or academic works. The CSJ piece in question does not appear to have been cited by any other sources. Do we have any reason to suppose that he is in any way a significant viewpoint? Quite apart from the problem with original research, I think it would be undue weight to use a 98-year-old source by an essentially unknown author which does not appear to have been picked up by any other sources. There's no indication that Verrel's viewpoint is in any way representative of or has influenced any wider body of opinion about the meaning of the Cyrus cylinder. -- ChrisO ( talk) 07:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Just to respond (note I am not pursuing the matter):
1) On point (2), the CSJ is talking about human-rights related concepts "individual freedom", "human justice". It does not need to mention human rights in particular, because these are components of Human rights. Also the author is talking about the cylinder because he quotes a portion of the cylinder first, and then in the next sentence he talks about "Cyrus's purported view". So obviously if someone quotes the cylinder, and then writes "Cyrus's puported view", he is taking Cyrus's purported view based upon the cylinder. On point (3), the only matter was simply to quote it without any intrepretation. But I have emailed Wiesehofer himself and I am sure he will get back to me. Afterwards, he will be the final authority to see if it contradicts him or not. Of course I will not edit the article (I have CC'ed two admins on that email), but simply we will see who is correct on this matter.
Thanks to GenericBob for providing an unbiased viewpoint. I am going to let it go right now for the best (there seems to be politics behind the issue rather than purely editorial pursuit and there is no reason to escalate it) but we can see a non-convanssed user gave exactly what would be the right viewpoint. Other users simply wanted to suppress information they did not like although this was the general charectirazation of the cylinder way before the Shah of Iran or even Pahlavids took power. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 14:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Some advice please? I don't want to bite a newcomer but I was very unsure what to do about Uganda, Acholi and today's contributions from 64.252.184.216. It may violate some policy, possibly this one, but I am not (indeed very far from) a policy expert. I was somewhat alarmed by the pasting-in of what might appear to be entire essays (check the page histories and watch the sizes) and it certainly doesn't to me read like an encyclopaedic contribution, but then what do I know? Advice please? Cheers DBaK ( talk) 14:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC) PS I've pointed out to the editor that this question is here. DBaK.
This editor's attempts to add OR material to the article include the use of his own original translation of a primary source to substantiate his claim. He appears to me to be an single issue editor who is actively engaged in agenda pushing. The discussion can be found here. In the subsequent RFC discussion he seems to have adopted a defensive posture, rejecting all comments that do not agree with his own. Could someone here lend a fresh pair of eyes to this very frustrating process? Thanks. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 15:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
As discussed here this editor appears to be trying to add OR to this article by falsifying sources and citing them to support statements they do not make. Could I have some uninvolved eyes look over this editors' contributions? There seems to be an ongoing pattern of problematic edits. Tim Vickers ( talk) 15:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
If I'd stumbled across this article a week ago, I'd have just about stubbed it based on BLP issues alone, given the complete lack of sourcing on key points -- it's mostly a summary of the program based on an individual viewer's take on it -- the equivalent of a long plot summary in a TV or movie article. Its almost entirely OR, and I think it should be radically abridged, down to what is clearly reliably sourced, but it's sensitive enough right now that I don't quite want to go ahead without checking for objections. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 02:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors argue that Taiwan is part of China based on the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758. However, the resolution only states that the seat of China has been transfered to the PRC, but doesn't say anything about Taiwan. Essentially, the resolution doesn't state what is meant by "China", and whether Taiwan is or isn't part of it. I would think that assuming anything about Taiwan based on this resolution is WP:OR, what do you think? Laurent ( talk) 10:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I hope this does not look too much like WP:forum shopping, but a discussion elsewhere has raised a point of principle, namely, is WP:OR allowed in framing category definitions or should categories always be based on well-established concepts? The examples I have in mind are those for national/lingustic/cultural groups of surnames. There used to be a [[Category:English surnames]], [[Category:Hungarian surnames]] and so on. The names and underlying concepts were supported by books and papers such as P. H. Reaney. A Dictionary of English Surnames. Oxford University Press. Now, however, we have [[Category:English-language surnames]], [[Category:Czech-language surnames]] etc, but there seems to no literature referring to these concepts by these names. Is this contrary to the spirit, perhaps also to the letter of WP:NOR? SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 12:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Is "will air alongside Samurai Sentai Shinkenger in TV Asahi's Super Hero Time programming block" in the Kamen Rider Double article original research? I think it is original research and Ryulong thinks its not original research. ( see me talk page) What do you think is it original research or not? Powergate92 Talk 17:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I had no idea we had a no original research noticeboard. What a trip down the rabbit hole this is. Regardless, my only comment on this is that it's usually pretty easy to find sources for even the most basic or trivial info. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need to have inline citations for every common sense statement. There's a balance somewhere. And usually refs attached to other sentences "cover" for sentences that don't have any inline cites. If that makes any sense. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 19:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: {{ Future television}} articles should be very carefully sourced. I think one could both argue that it is OR and that it isn't, so we have a draw. The litmus test for inclusion here begins with whether it is important to describe the programming block. I'm not terribly convinced of the need to include it, but neither am I admittedly knowledgeable about the topic. If there is a clear pattern from past series, showing that the programming block is consistent and not subject to change, the one could argue for inclusion. But the problem of adding unsourced speculation to any type of upcoming/future topic artice is something to be concerned about. Then again, if one can accurately make this observation from a published report or listing, it would seal the deal. If no such link or reference exists, the material does border on OR, as we can't be sure of this information without some way to verify it. Viriditas ( talk) 13:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I contend whether he is/is not, as a topic of controversy, must be explicitly quoted from published sources, which sources contradict; therefore, for WPaedians to advance either side via their own argumentation is original research. (The article talkpage where this is being discussed is here: Talk:Jimmy Wales#Semantics of 'founder' wrt Sanger.) Any input? ↜Just M E here , now 20:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Larry Sanger is a co-founder of Wikipedia. Please see all the material collected and documented at the page "My role in Wikipedia (larrysanger.org)" -- Seth Finkelstein ( talk) 16:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
↜Just M E here , now 22:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Larry Sanger himself argues (quote): I believe "founder" is used in two closely-related ways, depending on whether the thing founded is either a business enterprise, on the one hand, or a community project, movement, etc., on the other hand. In a business context, frequently, the founders of an enterprise are its original funders or sponsors. In a community context, however, the founders are those who had the most personal influence in getting a community started. So, for example, we might say the French government was a "founder" of the United States in the business sense, while Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were among the community founders. (end quote).
↜Just M E here , now 03:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)After a hard day's work, I sit down at a bar. (Why are these set pieces always in a bar, I wonder?)
"Gimme an English malt," I say, gesturing to a placard.
Bartender gives me an OE800.
A voice is heard from down the bar. It's man in a tweed jacket. "I'll have you know, sir, that brew is made in Milwaukee."
After mulling the bubbles in my beer for 3 7/8 seconds, I raise it to the man in a mock toast, "Ah, Wisconsin. Land of 800 lakes!" (with what I believe, at least, to be a wry smile -- )
"You reveal yourself a fool. The Land ofaTen Thousand Lakes is Minnesota," says the man.
I scratch my head...unsure of what the game is this gentleman and I are playing.
Hi, I need help. I'm author and have in my book a new word. In that matter it is extremely important to me to be able to be the first person motioning the word on the net. And what could be better the most known lexicon.
I have been in contact with the guys at the Swedish Wikipedia but I do not get a real explanation on my question.
I have read the policy about "No original research" but I can't find the information I seek. My question is. How established doses a word need to be before I can publish it on Wikipedia? Is it good enough to publish the word in my book and on some specific webpage’s? I use the word in all my courses, seminaries and similar.
Kind regards /Freddie
Hi and thanks for the quick answer. So if I understand you correct, there is no strict criteria’s to decide if a word is established or not, it's up to reviewer? How do you guys investigate if a word is established?
/Freddie
In the George Trenholm biography, an editor inserted his fringe theory that the fictitious character Rhett Butler in the novel Gone with the Wind is modeled after George Trenholm.
I tagged, challenged and removed the fringe theory almost one year ago. There are simply no reliable sources on this subject, other than the self-published book by the creator of this theory. Just recently, another editor believed the theory should be included in the biography, and inserted:
It is claimed that novelist Margaret Mitchell patterned her fictional character, Rhett Butler, on the life of Trenholm
The references given are:
This has lead to an edit war, as the references given are not solid enough to be included in an historical figure biography. The references are repeating hearsay/rumors and do not go into explanation on the matter. The 3O who is trying to assist is on the fence, but cited WP:UNDO and the claim/rumor should be dropped if no WP:RS could be cited.
Discussion here: Talk:George_Trenholm
What say thee? Jim ( talk) 11:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
Could somebody please take a look at the thread Talk:Evolutionary_argument_against_naturalism#Article_lead, particularly the discussion about the following proposed wording for the article lead;
Attempts have been made to link the argument with advocacy of Intelligent Design and it has been claimed that the argument is an attack on evolutionary theory itself. Whilst certain ID supporters have appealed to EAAN in support of their own anti-naturalistic claims, Plantinga has responded by asserting that the EAAN does not serve an anti-evolutionary purpose.
And advise whether it constitutes a violation of WP:SYNTH?
I commented on the above that;
I've offered a synthesis of what seem to me four quite easily demonstrated facts; (1) that certain ID theorists have "adopted" EAAN; (2) that Plantinga is sympathetic to ID; (3) that Plantinga denies that EAAN is an anti-evolutionary argument; (4) that Plantinga acknowledges that a theist may rationally believe in forms of evolution guided by God (re Biola lecture) - Which of 1-4 are you objecting to, and on which basis? And if your claim is that EAAN is an argument against evolution ("while X"), then what's your WP:RS?
To which the response;
I've offered a synthesis of what seem to me four quite easily demonstrated facts - please see WP:SYNTH. Taking "four quite easily demonstrated facts", and connecting them in a novel fashion, is against policy. So we can't do it here. No matter how many false attacks you sling my way, synthesis isn't allowed, whether SoP's initial stuff, or your new phrasing.
To which my response;
If I can close with only one procedural/policy observation: WP:SYNTH is specifically aimed at preventing editors from drawing conclusions on the basis of synthesis, not on preventing multi-point sentences. Using the term "synthesis" was poor form on my part, but I meant only that I had "put together" four points (1), (2), (3), (4). I did not draw a conclusion ("therefore (5)") and the WP:SYNTH objection is therefore misplaced.
This was rejected as an explanation, but I'm unable to see that I have violated WP:SYNTH as I although I carelessly made reference to a "synthesis" of four facts, I drew no conclusions. Any advice appreciated.
Thanks, -- Muzhogg ( talk) 23:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Boy do we need help in List of Grand Slam Women's Singles champions and List of Grand Slam Men's Singles champions. This content problem also affects doubles, mixed doubles, boy and girls websites on tennis slams. Background is that prior to the 1925 French Championships the tournament was not open to international play. The tournament actually started in 1891 but you had to belong to a French Tennis club to participate. The other 3 slams (US Open, Wimbledon and Australian Open) did not have this restriction though one person editing will argue that the other 3 slams' rules were a bit sketchy in the first few years. Every book, encyclopedia or magazine at your local bookstore or library will list all champions of all years of the French Championships... 1891 onwards, as they should since the person who won in 1895 did win the French title. No argument there.
The content problem is in listing slam wins for the above mentioned events. If you go to your local bookstore or library and look at almanacs, encyclopedias, espn sports guides, etc... and they list slam winners in tennis history you will not see any of them list the pre-1925 French winners as "slam" winners. They all say that because it was not an international event (i.e. open to all players) it is not counted. I have cited them in my edits and I will head to the library in the next few days to get more sources. The charts on the pages calculate the players slam wins so it is important we keep accurate numbers so that we can have item like most slam wins ever, most slam win in a row, most slam victories on one surface, etc. I feel those pre-1925 French winners should not be in the charts because the multitude of sources don't back up that they should. It seems like original research to contradict published information. Even if one or two guides can be shown to say otherwise the vast majority would say don't include those players.
But I am in an impasse with one editor that I have a history with and I really don't want to keep reverting his edits... but I don't want the article to suffer with inaccurate info. I need to clarify one other item. I had thought an agreement long ago might be a possible road to compromise but it has not worked. The original framers of the article (before my time) had listed the pre-1925 winners grayed out with no numbers to show they existed but that they weren't counted. We left it at that status quo but as time has worn on new editors saw the names and keep adding them to the numbering and other charts on a regular basis. I seem to be the only one who keeps fixing these things. The other editor never fixes any of these inaccuracies. To be fair neither does anyone else usually. This situation is getting tiresome and I want this to be a good accurate article. We all have other beefs of chart order, colors, etc... but those are visual things they may need standard mediation. This pre-1925 thing is a major content item and I really don't know what to do about it without daily reverts. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated or if this is the wrong place to post kindly tell me what is my best alternative. Thanks. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 09:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Should this edit be reverted? Three (links to abstracts of) patents are being cited to support the statement "[The company was founded by] David T. Hon, a former laser physicist". 58.8.209.249 ( talk) 09:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I am party to an ongoing dispute here. Following advice found at WP:DR, I am seeking opinions about some questions raised.
1) The section in the article being discussed includes a citation to a published paper. After asking several times, no editor admits to actually having read this paper. The question is: Does a citation need to be "verified" or is simply being "verifiable" enough?
2) Another question is the neutrality. I see that WP:UNDUE requires that neutrality match the proportion of prominence of opinions found in the published reliable sources. (As opposed to the proportion of personal opinions of the editors which may be instead based on original research or on dubious sourcing.) To verify that the proportion matches the published reliable sources it seems there needs to be discussion of what reliable sources are being considered. The other editors in this dispute claim they have no obligation to disclose which sourcing they use to form an opinion about the proper neutrality balance.
Excerpts from the talk page discussion:
"Editors may choose to contribute based on whatever knowledge they have on the subject and should not be obligated to share the source of their knowledge." [29]
"...nobody has any obligation to answer any of your questions" [30]
"Editors ... are not required to disclose the source of their knowledge here on the discussion page." [31]
For editor neutrality judgments: Is there an obligation to disclose how their sourcing is reliable or how can we confirm that the sourcing being used is not the original research of the editor? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 18:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Salty... You're asking at the wrong place... your questions do not relate to the concept of No Original Research... they are questions for other policy pages... ask about verifiability at WT:V and Undue at WT:NPOV. Thanks. Blueboar ( talk) 21:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
(Some text temporarily removed for technical reasons. Will fix in a minute. Hans Adler 20:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC))
Would someone care to express an opinion here as to whether presenting plot items from the film itself (using the film itself as a source, per WP:FILM), and other reliable sources about real-life events, constitutes invalid synthesis? Rodhull andemu 00:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Huh? How is that any different than —
NOVEL | FILM |
---|---|
Edward has red hair. | Edward has blond hair. |
Maggie is 43 years of age. | Maggie is 37 years of age. |
That is clearly Synthesis, just as clearly as —
Differences between film and novel
Edward has red hair in the novel. Edward has blond hair in the film. Also, Maggie appears to be 43 years of age in the novel. In the film Maggie is 37 years old.
All you're doing is leaving our comparative conjunctions to make it appear the WP editor is not making the connection or comparison. 173.72.140.146 ( talk) 14:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
::Exactly... If we were to say something like: "In the film, Edward has blond hair, but this is inaccurate because in reality he had red hair" we would an OR violation (as we would be stating a conclusion... ie that the film is inaccurate). Mearly pointing out the fact that the film and some other source differ is fine.
Blueboar (
talk) 14:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Getting back to the point here... I don't think it is OR to include statements as to the differences between a fictional movie and the non-fictional source that the movie is based upon (this is going to be true of any fictional work that is based upon reality). So long as all we are doing is saying "the movie depicts X while the book says Y", we are not synthisizing. We are mearly comparing and contrasting sources. We do this with sources all the time in our articles. However, I would agree that petty details like "so and so had brown hair in the movie, but was a blond in real life" is little more than trivia. But something like (just to make something up): "The movie depicts one of the tunnels being discovered by the Germans. This is not mentioned in any of the historical accounts" would be more than trivia and might be worth mentioning. Blueboar ( talk) 21:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Normally an article about differences between a film and another work or event would be contained within the article, unless there's so much info that it's too large. But those differences still need proper sourcing. The first thing that came to mind is The Natural. The most obvious difference in the book vs. the film is the 180 degree difference in the way they end. Pointing that out could be argued to be OR, except that it's verifiable by the reader/viewer. And furthermore, it's discussed in the DVD special, so there's no need for OR. But when comparing a real-life event with a film, if something is asserted to be different, the question might arise, "How do you know?" If it requires a lengthy discussion about "the film says this while this historical book says that", then that's OR. But if the answer is, "So-and-so film critic pointed it out here", then that erases the OR. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
At Talk:USS Texas (BB-35) there is an ongoing (civil) dispute between IronShip and a few other editors over alleged inaccurate information in the article USS Texas (BB-35). IronShip has produced what should be reliable sources for his information in the form of deck logs, cruise books, and other official medium from the battleship which he believes will allow the incorrect material to be corrected since the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability, not truth. Unfortunately though, we have hit a snag: the material is not available online or in a readily accessible print format. To resolve this problem a proposal has been raised to have the material added to the talk page in the form of images, which should resolve the information dispute by providing the sources for the claims, but we are unsure of the extent of the OR policies on wikipedia as it applies to this strategy. Can we do this, or will we have to come up with a different plan of action? TomStar81 ( Talk) 05:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
"Three minutes thought would suffice to find this out; but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time." A.E. Housman Camelbinky ( talk) 14:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
All of the primary sources that I cite (log book, cruise reports, war diary, action reports) are available to anyone (viewing or purchase) from the National Archives and Records Administration. This is where I obtained most of my copies. No FOIA is required. IronShip ( talk) 00:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
On that Green Day related article, the song, 21 Guns, I was wondering if this is original research, because it is most likely not in a source. But let me tell you that it can be proven, and it is a fact, it's just a fact that no one has thought of before.
The fact is: the Pop 100 stopped its charting about a month ago and so it was discontinued, but I wanted to say that that was why 21 Guns was so far back on the Pop 100, because it could not chart anymore. And you know that's true, but how can you prove it? I just feel that users should know that.
Is that original research? Because I feel like it is, but it is something that can be actually proven, because the facts are all there, they just haven't been put together in one link. -- Zzguitar14 ( talk) 15:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like some outside input. I performed a very basic merger of earthquake light and earthquake cloud into earthquake weather ( stable version). The merger had been proposed for a while, as they all relate to atmospheric conditions preceding or coinciding with earthquakes. An editor has claimed that this is OR, as the clouds and lights are "not what people have in mind when they say earthquake weather". I have never heard anyone say this phrase, I only knew the title from an album by Joe Strummer. Even if this is a common piece of folklore, I don't see how adding real-world context is bad, and I certainly don't see how this is OR. Please see the full discussion at Talk:Earthquake_weather#lights, and I would appreciate comments (either way) there. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 23:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
A draft of revised material for Views of Lyndon LaRouche#Gays and AIDS is here: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS. It contains a paragraph that describes two incidents that were reported in reliable sources. Here are excerpts from those sources:
Here is the proposed text:
FYI, there is also a widely reported incident [32] in which a representative verbally harassed Henry Kissinger with a sexual allegation at an airport, resulting in an altercation with his wife. The follower pressed charges, and it went to trial, but the Nancy Kissinger was found not guilty. That material is problably relevant too and might be added. The draft already has several sources that explicitly say LaRouche himself has a history of attacking gays and of attacking opponents with charges of homosexuality. Also, this matter was first raised at WP:RSN#The Times of London when an editor said the reporting may be incorrect, but that was withdrawn. The editor said the larger issue was WP:NOR, so this is moving here. The question is: does this summary violate WP:SYNTH? Will Beback talk 00:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I could go on listing sources that link the views of LaRouche followers to LaRouche, but but I think that last source helps cover the matter of supposed original research. LaRouche urged his followers to spread panic, and they did what he told them to. I see no source that in any way implies that LaRouche's followers and activists, when acting on his behalf, express ideas idfferent than his own. Unless an uninvolved editor has a different view on this, I don't think we're any closer to supporting your assertion that there is improper synthesis here. Will Beback talk 22:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
(undent) You know, the more I listen to these arguments, the more convinced I am that 'original research' is just the wrong phrase, because it traps editors in an entirely incorrect model of behavior. The correct model to use here is the journalistic one, not the scientific one: we shouldn't be excluding original research, we should be excluding bad reporting. The '1+1=2?' issues are tricky to address as issues of science. heck, mathematicians know that 1+1=2 only under a given set of metrical preconditions, and there has been a lot of actual original research in mathematics distinguishing where it is true and where it is false. But from a journalistic perspective, the questions is a non-issue, because a good journalist uses common sense without worrying about the ontological basis for it. e.g. a good reporter will happily report that 1 male + 1 female = 2 people, but will not report that 1 male + 1 Asian = 2 people; common sense dictates the first, but not the second. and note, the first statement might be wrong (see hermaphrodite), and may get corrected in the future, but a reporter isn't obliged to worry about that - all he needs to do is report, in good faith and with common sense, as best possible.
so let's note out limitations:
what we have is common sense, and common access to reason, and the ability to discuss things. If I thought it had a snowball's chance in hell I'd suggest that we scrap the entire 'original research' concept and replace it with a journalism 101 primer. it would save us a tremendous amount of wikilawyering in countless pages. -- Ludwigs2 14:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Ludwig2 you are my freakin hero. I wish you had been present for some disagreements I've had on articles with editors who DEMANDED citations for EVERYTHING regardless of commonsense or concensus and removed anything and everything not cited or cited with a reference that they did not think "reliable enough", or put in citations for info that was clearly wrong; ie- an editor decided that a hamlet (place) in a particular incorporated town had a couple of references that called the hamlet a "town" and therefore demanded that the hamlet article refer to the hamlet as a "town" even though many of us tried to explain that legally it wasnt a town but that editor demanded that the only way to remove his edit without it being "vandalism" was to have a better source that specifically said "hamlet X is not a town". Camelbinky ( talk) 14:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
User Mattise writes "I am not making a connection. I do not think "homosexual transsexualism" is used by any professionally accepted diagnostic system. As I said, I think the WHO category above is the closest you will come for an RS, in answer to your question above." diff The WHO category refered to is ego-dystonic homosexuality. Mattise cites the ICD 10 [1] If one reads what the source actually says...
Egodystonic Sexual Orientation The gender identity or sexual preference (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or prepubertal) is not in doubt, but the individual wishes it were different because of associated psychological and behavioural disorders, and may seek treatment in order to change it. [2]
Do you all think making this connection based on the above source is Original research?-- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I left out that this appears on the talk page of the article Homosexual transsexual under Talk:Homosexual_transsexual#Ego_Dystonic_homosexuality.-- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
For all of those reasons I think that what Mattisse asserts in this instance is their own original research, which is in contradiction with very acessible reliable secondary sources. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 16:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please help me at this article? I've tried several times to tell the editor that simply citing a lyrics directory and a dictionary is not a good way to go about explaining a song's content, especially in such detail, but the user just won't listen. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Many otters • One hammer • HELP) 16:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi — An editor has deleted the following paragraph of the article World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories, stating: "remove WP:OR and WP:SYN. Find a secondary source that says this. Don't cite primary sources." [4] (The article now contains the old paragraph again, with a {{fact}} tag, and an informal warning about edit-warring has been issued.)
Given that the sequence of the publications that are included in the paragraph is obvious from the publication dates, can this possibly be regarded as WP:OR or WP:SYN? Cs32en 18:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm putting together a new article. The accepted definitive source on the subject uses pseudonyms for a few of the involved people, because at the time of original publication (1966) they were still alive and there were privacy concerns, although not defamation concerns because the real names are used in public court records. In a re-published (2001) edition, the author reveals the real names behind all pseudonyms but one. I have an original newspaper article which, based on the circumstances of the legal action and identifiers in both the original article and the book (age and occupation, with no one else involved in the legal situation having both the same age and occupation and no one else remaining unidentified), includes the person's real name. Any OR problem with my using the real name in the article? Otto4711 ( talk) 22:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
For several days now a couple of editors have been trying to add the following material to the hasbara article:
In 1977, recently elected Likud Prime Minister, Menachem Begin named Shmuel Katz to become the "Adviser to the Prime Minister of Information Abroad". (The New York Times, January 6 1978, Adviser to Begin quits)
I challenged the material, asking how the editor adding it knew it was related to hasbara. His response was that it was "obvious", or "common sense", or "seems too coincidental to be OR". Another editor eventually brought a different source related Katz to hasbara; specifically that he had commented on the topic in 2001, and at that time encouraged Ariel Sharon to create a permanent department for it. They are now using this second citation as a pretext for including the first citation, and the material from it. I have pointed out to them that this is classic WP:NOR/ WP:SYNTH, but they don't appear to care. I've brought the issue here for additional viewpoints. Jayjg (talk) 02:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I just learned of this. Excuse me, I do not believe this resolves all questions of SYNTH concerning this episode on the page. Please give me some time to get my diffs in order. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 04:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Specifically in light of Roland’s “good catch” (much thanks, by the way), I am now a less-than-happy-camper. What I particularly object to is the administrator’s SYNTH synopsis that my “response was that it was "obvious", or "common sense", or "seems too coincidental to be OR"” Had I known, I would have said my response was this, which was my initial response. It included specific, technical and relevant material concerning why my edit was not OR, and also pointed to his own OR assumptions, based on RSs on the article page. It includes, by the way, “the contemporaneous, specifically quoted (but awkward) phrase, “Adviser to the Prime Minister of Information Abroad””, that “ The editor also wanted to modify the phrasing into something more grammatical, but that would have been OR, based on the reference; he considered it may have come from a verbatim Hebrew phrase, and left the RS alone.”
We are now after that ‘good catch’ fact, but frankly, even three weeks ago it showed little, if any AGF on the part of the admin-user. So, with whom is a lowly (oppositely pov’d) editor supposed to be discussing hot-topic content? As the discussion continued, and after his shouted replies, I make note of this [7], and asked some specific questions regarding OR and SYNTH. But, even though the admin had already brought his factually inaccurate, SYNTH’ed description of the situation to the OR noticeboard, he does not even have the courtesy or etiquette to reply to simple questions at the original page. Those questions, I believe, are now sitting on this table, and they deserve a reply. I will not be pushed aside, like so many others, without a fair hearing of these issues; must we accept admins, who seem to stand on gaming and one POV, rather than on WP:Five Pillars? I am tired and frustrated that the project suffers excessively from certain admins, who appear to operate under the Mushroom Method of Management. I do not believe that this is what Wikipedia is supposed to be. I consider this an ‘incident’; does this stay here, or what? I am asking. Reasonably cool and civil, under the circumstances. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
This section relates to perceived WP:SYNTH, on this very page, documented and summarized succinctly here. It comes originally from Hasbara, best documented here. The page was subsequently renamed/moved. I have the following initial concerns:
Issue 1: Is it a violation of policy, or just a guideline etiquette-thingy, for an experienced administrator to fail to notify other editors that their week-long OR dispute has been brought to this page? The original page may fall within the general purview of Wikipedia:ARBPIA-type pages, and the editors are known, and ‘involved’.
Issue 2: Is it a violation of policy, or just another etiquette-type thingy (which one), when an administrator then severely synthesizes the opposing and unknowing editor’s reply, when he reports it for review on this page? The administrator’s original OR complaint has since been serendipitously disproven; the synth alleged here is yet to be discussed. Discussion of it is requested.
Issue 3. If the alleged synth is found to be the case. Does it thus constitute a violation of gaming by an experienced administrator? Or again, is it just some other wiki-stuff; please explain. As I understand things, this specific page is project-designed to help end the gaming, not be a hall of fame forum for it to be played.
Issue 4. Possibly elucidate on the policy/guideline-mandated balance between degrees of normative thinking and WP:OR, or the balance between the former and normative relations.
That is, at least, the way I see events and administrative decisions made. I do not consider these to be minor kerfuffle, and expect to find little catharsis; those arteries are already clogged. Regardless, I will notify relevant others shortly. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 07:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Outdent: Returning much refreshed, as well as more aware, I consider this well Resolved. Warmest regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 05:22, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I'd like to post to this page an interesting development over at the Internet homicide article. In the interest of pruning out some or any of the "OR" in it, User:Ludwigs2 has made a proposal to broaden and refocus its topic toward achieving this end. It's here: Talk:Internet_homicide#alternate proposal. If any readers of this noticeboard might have a spare moment to check it out and comment, we'll greatly appreciate it! ↜Just M E here , now 18:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Is an interview, published by a reliable source, a primary source or a self-published source (or both)? Would it be original research to use statements from such an interview, or can statements from such an interview be used in the article, following the guideline on self-published sources? Cs32en 16:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your answer and for the explanation of the issues involved! The following section from the article
has been replaced by:
The section of the interview that has been used for the article reads:
Cs32en 02:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Editors are discussing the insertion (or re-insertion) of a reference to Michael Moore in the featured article The Age of Reason. The Age of Reason is a book written by Thomas Paine, a 19th-century free-thinking writer who espoused liberal political views and was highly critical and contemptuous of the Christian establishment of his day. The disputed passage in the proposal is emboldened below.
Paine's text is still published today, one of the few eighteenth-century religious texts to be widely available,[96] and his style has continued to influence writers and critics. For example, the American filmmaker and writer Michael Moore's polemical style has been compared to Paine's and he has been called "the new Tom Paine" by the left.[Porton, Stuckey, Andersen] The book's message still resonates as well, evidenced by British atheist and author of God is Not Great Christopher Hitchens's statement that "if the rights of man are to be upheld in a dark time, we shall require an age of reason". His 2006 book on the Rights of Man ends with the claim that "in a time . . . when both rights and reason are under several kinds of open and covert attack, the life and writing of Thomas Paine will always be part of the arsenal on which we shall need to depend."[97]
Short version:
WP:SYN says: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."
The SYN steps in this case are:
Is it appropriate to add C to this Featured Article?
TLDR version:
There has already been an RfC on the question of including a reference to Moore, and four previously uninvolved editors have given their opinion that such a mention is inappropriate, against one in favour. The problem is that not one of the sources editors wish to cite to justify inclusion of this sentence mentions The Age of Reason, or the style in which it is written. They merely draw a generalised parallel between Paine and Moore as free-thinkers.
As per WP:SYN, it is not up to editors to establish a connection between Moore's literary style and The Age of Reason if no source connects Moore's literary style with this book. Yet editors are still trying to reword the Moore reference in the hope that it will pass muster in this FA.
It should be noted that The Age of Reason is really a book against the Christian religious establishment of its day. Michael Moore is not particularly anti-religious. He identifies as a Christian, and as a Catholic. Paine most certainly did not. So any points of similarity between Moore and Paine don't lie in the way they write about religion, but in their liberal political views. And Moore is not even mentioned as a writer in Paine's tradition, or someone whose style is similar to Paine's, in the article on Thomas Paine.
The mention of Christopher Hitchens, on the other hand, is entirely appropriate in The Age of Reason, because Hitchens has specifically referenced the book in his own writing, and expresses fairly similar views on organised religion, views which he himself feels are in Paine's tradition. Jayen 466 20:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
."A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."
Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked. To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented.
(edit conflict) Here is the sentence in question: [Paine's] style has continued to influence writers and critics. For example, the American filmmaker and writer Michael Moore's polemical style has been compared to Paine's and he has been called "the new Tom Paine" by the left." The sources say the same thing. Here are three examples of the sources we have been discussing:
There is a request for comment on this already so, take it there. There is no reason to forumshop, and forumhop. Keep discussion in one place.
Syn
ergy 00:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Sexologist and professor of psychology J. Michael Bailey does research related to transsexuality. One of his peer-reviewed papers on transwomen leads with the following plain statement (taken from the abstract):
Currently the predominant cultural understanding of male-to-female transsexualism is that all male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals are, essentially, women trapped in men's bodies.
— J. Michael Bailey, Kiira Triea. "What many transgender activists don't want you to know: and why you should know it anyway." Perspectives in Biology and Medicine. Autumn 2007 v50 i4 p521(14). PMID 17951886
An editor with a long history of tendentious editing (several failed informal mediations, two RfC/Us, two failed formal mediations, one rejected arbcom case...) has apparently decided that this is merely a statement of opinion, and that the predominant cultural understanding of this expert's field could be anything in the world. Consequently, he wants this presented in the style of "The president of the Flat Earth Society says..." instead of simply stating this fact -- a fact that is, as far as I can tell, uncontested by anyone except the editor in question; apparently his personal research (sample size of n=1) is a better way to determine what most Western people think of transwomen.
This is but one of today's problems at feminine essence theory of transsexuality; you'll find it at Talk:Feminine_essence_theory_of_transsexuality#Style. Others from today involve yet another discussion about what an author might have meant by contrasting "literally" with "figuratively", and how to figure out what a pronoun stands for. (Yes: this is from a middle-aged native English speaker.) Would someone else please take over? Almost everything on that 156K talk page is an effort to stop his misdirected efforts at "improving" the article.
I gave up on good faith during the last failed round of formal mediation and the RfC/U that ended it, but at this moment, remaining even barely civil is a strain, so I'm signing off for the night. If you want to help in the longer term, I can get copies of most of the relevant sources to you; please leave a note on the article's talk page. In the short term, common sense and a basic grasp of English grammar are likely to be more than sufficient. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 06:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Could we have external opinions here? A SPA editor wants to add breakdown of the costing of Woods' discharge from the US Army, using found sources that don't mention Woods and aren't cited in any third-party accounts of said discharge. Looks like WP:SYNTH to me. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 00:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
If I were to say that "Here with Me" was REO Speedwagon's last top 20 single on The Billboard Hot 100 according to this source [12], am I violating WP:OR? Based on the chart, it's clearly their last top 20 single, but it doesn't specifically say that. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Is the image currently illustrating Susan Boyle a violation of our original research policy? See discussion at talk page: [13] Dlabtot ( talk) 16:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
User-created images of this kind are a catch-22. If they only used a copyrighted work as a reference, they are likely derivative works and so a non-free use rationale is needed for the original work in addition to a license for the derivative. If they are completely original, then how do we verify that they accurately illustrate what they purport to? A non-notable artist's personal interpretation or expression of what someone looks like is of no encyclopedic value, so these are only worth using if they are accurate illustrations. So how do we evaluate that? Postdlf ( talk) 20:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
User-created portraits pose a very different problem than user-created images generally, because not everyone is capable of drawing a faithful portrait of a real individual, and unless the artist is notable, the portrait is only useful to the extent it is an accurate depiction of the real life subject. The exception to user-created images in WP:OR is not an invitation to invent facts, so any information the image purports to communicate must be verifiable. So at a minimum, we should always insist on references for a user-created portrait—on what did the creator base his depiction? Did he have a private sitting with the subject? Did he see the subject in public from a distance? Or did he somehow adapt it from one or more copyrighted sources, such as photographs or videos? This will help establish whether it is a copyvio, but will also help establish whether it is accurate. Is this something we can trust to individual article editors to determine? Or do we need a broader policy either forbidding such images across the board, or providing criteria for their usage? Postdlf ( talk) 22:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. It's not just people; how do we know this picture really is what a human lung looks like? How do we know that this photo really is an polyphemus moth, and not some other species that's been mis-identified? Questions that are relevant to user-created images:
I have a lot of sympathy for arguing on principle, but unless we want to codify image-recognition AI as part of WP:V, there comes a point at which we have to be pragmatic and say "yes, it looks like what it's supposed to be". -- GenericBob ( talk) 00:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
This map [14] is clearly original research -- see the talk page. (I also doubt that the creator drew the map, so there may be a copyvio issue here also, but that's not my point right now). Is this acceptable? Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Any input welcome here. ╟─ Treasury Tag► contribs─╢ 15:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Should the following be removed? -- Drogonov ( talk) 16:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Technical problems
In May's version there is an error causes the computer to reboot when starting games that use gameguard as an anti-cheating device, unless Defence+ is turned off. This problem has been solved if the game hosts updated gameguard and have the Comodo Firewall updated to the June version at least. [1] The problem reappears for Vista users in the February version.
References
- ^ Comodo Forum thread "Gameguard + Comodo = Computer reboot ", begun April 23, 2008.
ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS?:-)
Users keep on adding content to this US Politician's article, and reverting my reverts that is claiming original research and wp:blp guidelines. My concern is that this user describes a speech by the politician as being "criticized due to her surprisingly poor use of grammar, and dramatic mispronunciation of several words including "congratulate," as well as the names of Percy Harvin and Coach Urban Meyer." User includes a link to a video of this speech but there is still no reliable source to back up the content.
Do not want to violate the three-revert rule here.
Thank You -- Omarcheeseboro ( talk) 17:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The main
article for "Swine Flu" is a synthesis of hundreds of articles approximately 140 (some up-to-date, and some not from official and unofficial sources), and puts forth the Wikipedia-generated conclusion that there are 909 925 world-wide cases of "Swine Flu", which disagrees with published figures by the World Health Organization.
Flipper9 (
talk) 18:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
2009 US swine flu outbreak table}}
, where previously the editors there were using a novel method for determining relative severity for organizing the table. —/
Mendaliv/
2¢/
Δ's/ 19:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
2009 swine flu outbreak table}}
; it's basically just
2009 swine flu outbreak in the United States, which is a blatant violation of SPS (see specifically the section on Wikipedia and its mirrors). Why is this done? Because the people at {{
2009 swine flu outbreak table}}
cannot source the totals used at {{
2009 US swine flu outbreak table}}
without referencing every single one of the 51 references currently in that table. Is this a
WP:SYN issue, or is it a
WP:RS issue? —/
Mendaliv/
2¢/
Δ's/ 00:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Just found this discussion here. Note that the template template:2009 swine flu outbreak table has now been nominated for deletion (discussion is here). There have been developments. Barnaby dawson ( talk) 17:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Most of this article relies on primary sources and presents them as if it is the truth. The concluding section shows that there is a considerable body of secondary sources debating various aspects of this topic, yet those sources are ignored for most of the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi there. There's a lively debate going on in Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Guidelines - Possible conflict with WP:NOR, in which a user contends that the use of cropped images of box art for video games (where we use the common portion of the box art shown on multiple releases of a game, but crop out the logos for a specific console) constitutes original research. Many of us in the project disagree, but now it's turning into a discussion about official policy, so I felt it might be good to ask this question here. Thanks. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 20:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
In trying to establish the notability of a creative artist based on work in museums, would refs like this, this, and this constitute OR? Also, if no one minds, I'll repeat what I asked here: would these be considered primary sources, and if so, do they contribute towards notability? Mbinebri talk ← 02:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm doing a GA assessment for TNA X Division Championship. There is a section on the belt that the author has written based on information put into the TNA belt designer's website over time. I'm not sure it's, first, verifiable, and second, since it is based on the author's observations of the belt and its design changes, if it qualifies as original research. Advice please? -- Auntieruth55 ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
"The photos come from a site selling replica belts - how do we know these photos are of the actual belts? They are primary sources which have not been reliably published, so are not much use for anything." First, click on this link: TNA Legends Championship. In that article is a source to TNA's website that introduces the Legends Championship. The pictures used are the exact same ones used on Millican's website. I believe there is a link as well to Millican's website and credit to him as well. On Millican's website, the link to all of TNA's championships states the TNA ??? Championship, showing that the title is the actual title. He has also been credited by TNA as the creator of all of their titles. All of their now used championships have been created in the last two years. Again your statement is questionable in itself. If someone takes a picture of one of the Olsen twins, and saying it is Ashely. How do you know it isn't Mary Kate? You don't unless you are in love with them. I'm friends with twins: Dakota and Shalen. When they graduated this year, I went and thought I was talking to Dakota when I was talking to Shalen. Unless it is said, you can't tell. So you can think you have the Mona Lisa, and say it is the Mona Lisa, but how do you know it is the Mona Lisa. The second statement, I can't understand. I'm guessing your asking how do we know Millcan is reliable? What is the point? Even if the pictures are of replicas, it is still the same design. There are multiple other photos of the champions with the belt on here. The belt looks the same as the ones in this article. Here are a few championship images: File:Petey Williams in London Sep 2008.jpg, File:Petey Williams Bloomington 062408.jpg, File:Daniels y AJ en Destination X.jpg, File:Shiek Abdul Bashir Chicago IL 121208.jpg, File:Shelly2009.JPG, File:Shelley2009.JPG, and File:Shellyxdivision2009.JPG which are all from TNA events so they are the actual championship. Plus one which is in the article not from Millcan: File:NWATNAFirstXTitle.jpg. "The X Division Championship has had two designs during its existence." Common sense. How do you know that you are real? You just know. If in the 7 year existence all images of the said championship have not changed between 2002 and 2007, then that is one. Through all of the programs TNA have had and done, the design has not changed between 2002 and 2007, then that is one. If TNA debuted a new shiny X Division Title because they said in another video that they would in May 2007, that is two. "The first design was used from June 2002 to May 2007." Took care of with previous statements. "The second design was introduced in May 2007 after the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA) ended their five-year partnership with TNA, which allowed the NWA to regain control over the NWA World Heavyweight and World Tag Team Championships that TNA had controlled since June 2002." Is covered with the NWA source. That source is covering the breaking up between TNA and the NWA. Not the design. "The new and current design of the championship was introduced on the May 16, 2007 edition of TNA's online podcast TNA Today. A belt was introduced, but was it a new design and is it the current design?" The sentence says new and current. The NWA and TNA broke up on May 13, 2007. Read the TNA World Heavyweight Championship for more information. Hell even its reign list. This statement is covered by the Youtube video, which is published directly by TNA Wrestling. They even include it on their website. That video is the May 16, 2007 edition of TNA's online podcast which they've done since 2006 called TNA Today which they continue to do. They take pride that it is the most viewed online show. That ref isn't about the design per-say. It is about the new belt, which is really a new design when a new belt is made. "Moreover, there is also an obvious NPOV dimension to consider - if these designs are not discussed in any reliable third-party sources, they should not be included, in line with WP:UNDUE." I state it isn't talked about, but I can't be sure. I don't go looking around sites because I can't tell what is reliable. So I don't search in things I don't know. Stuff I know I look in. So there could be some site out there that talks about it. I could search, but then we would have to move this to the reliable source noticeboard to determine that it is reliable when I find a source. I say chark this up to good faith and covered by common sense. You can see that my statements are true if you have eyes, and if you don't have eyes, then why are you on wikipedia trying to read a article you can't see and a better question is how the hell did you even get the computer on, get on the internet, on wikipedia, find the X title, and even know about the belt design section? Now I'm just having fun. I'm enjoying this conversation dude and I look forward to your reply.-- Will C 12:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Some discussion on intent may help resolve this. I was involved in the initial drafting of the Original Images section of this policy... the understanding at that time was that images (including photographs) should not be considered "sources" on their own... that images are "illustrations" of information discussed in the text. In order to discuss things in the text, we need to cite reliable (written) sources. Once that is done, then we can illustrate what we talk about by including an image of it. I hope this explanation clarifies things. Blueboar ( talk) 16:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
An editor recently added diff this statement to the article:
Shortly after GM soy products were introduced into Britain, soy allergies were seen to increase by 50%. Skin prick tests indicated some people were reacting to GM soy but not to GM free soy. [1]
I expanded this, and corrected the statement about skin tests, and the section now reads:
Worldwide, reports of allergies to all kinds of foods, particularly nuts, fish and shellfish, seem to be increasing, but it is not known if this reflects a genuine change in the risk of allergy, or an increased awareness of food allergies by the public. [2] A review published in 2008 stated that less than 1% of the population are allergic to soy. [3] In a set of skin prick tests performed in 2005, one person reacted to GM soy but not to GM free soy. [4]
Although I've now corrected the editor's misrepresentation of the source on skin prick testing and the text is now at least accurate, is this section still original research? Only the final article (the 2005 article by Yum) mentions GM food, and does not link this to rising food allergy rates. Tim Vickers ( talk) 17:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've rewritten the section and removed the study on soybeans. Tim Vickers ( talk) 23:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Is primary sourcing OK for Alexa traffic rankings? Please see
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 12:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is part of the chart below to illustrate what the Alexa sources are referencing, and how it is currently done. See this version of the article:
Wiki farm | Alexa rank (lower is better) [5] | Cost? | Ad? | Content license |
---|---|---|---|---|
@wiki | 96,000 [6] as of June 4, 2009. | Free | Yes | |
BrainKeeper | 630,000 [7] as of June 4, 2009. | Non-free Nonfree | ? | |
BusinessWiki | 550,000 [8] as of June 4, 2009. | Free (3 users) / Paid (14 days trial) | No | GPL |
Central Desktop | 21,000 [9] as of June 4, 2009. | Non-free Nonfree | ? | |
Wiki farm | Alexa. Approximative rank according to Alexa Internet. Click on the rank to get the last figures. | Cost? | Ad? | Content license |
I believe these are the relevant guidelines:
Tthere are many Wikipedia pages with Alexa traffic rankings. See the results of this search of Wikipedia articles. There is also an infobox with Alexa rank as one of the parameters: Template:Infobox Website. That infobox is on many pages. See Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox Website. They all use primary sourcing for the Alexa rank they show.
My question is whether this primary sourcing is OK for Alexa traffic ranks? I believe it is. I am not asking about whether the Alexa ranks are appropriate for this article. That is another issue, and not covered by this noticeboard. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 13:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently trying to deal with an apparent bid to introduce OR into Cyrus cylinder. There have been claims by various people that the Cyrus cylinder was "the world's first declaration of human rights." According to a 1999 book by Professor Josef Wiesehöfer, this claim can be traced back to a work published by the late Shah of Iran in 1967 that has since been taken up by various Iranian nationalists. An (apparently Iranian) editor, Nepaheshgar ( talk · contribs), disagrees; he has found a snippet on Google Books from the Christian Science Journal of 1911 which makes a similar argument (see [18]). On this basis, Nepaheshgar argues that the CSJ snippet should be included as, presumably, a refutation of Wiesehöfer's book. This seems to me to be rather obvious original research; it appears to be intended to make an argument - i.e. "Wiesehöfer is wrong" - that is not stated by the source (which was published 40 years before Wiesehöfer was even born!). I'd be interested to know what other editors think. -- ChrisO ( talk) 23:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
From my perspective (i.e. ignorance of this topic ;-) it seems to me that we're going to a lot of trouble to make a controversy from two sources (MBE's 1911 comments and the Shah's book) that seem to largely agree with one another in their characterisation of the cylinder. Subject to one caveat, I'd be inclined to write it something like this:
Mary Baker Eddy, writing in 1911, described the cylinder as strengthening "the impression that Cyrus believed in the sacred rights of individual freedom". The Cyrus cylinder has been called "the world's first declaration of human rights" by some scholars,[45], a position that was strongly advocated by the pre-1979 Iranian regime[46]; Wiesehöfer credits the first appearance of this characterisation to a 1967 book, The White Revolution of Iran, by the then Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, who made Cyrus the Great a key figure in government ideology..."
Readers can then make up their own minds whether MBE is expressing the same idea as later Iranian sources, or merely a similar idea that doesn't contradict Wiesehöfer's statement. If this article was named Shah of Iran (historian), it might be important to get into the question of whether his characterisation was original, but it's not.
The caveat is that all I've been able to see of the MBE quote is a short snippet on Google Books that isn't enough for me to be certain of its context, so somebody would need to check the full version of the article to confirm that the quote is representative.
(I have some doubts about MBE's credentials as a historian, but then I can say the same for the Shah; it seems that this section is as much about the use of this particular interpretation for political ends as it is about the accuracy of that interpretation, so the relevance of both MBE and the Shah lies in the fact that they were influential figures with a wide readership, not in their credibility.) -- GenericBob ( talk) 02:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, Mary Baker Eddy isn't a good source for the description of an ancient artifact/text. So I have strong reservations about using her in the article at all. That aside, time's arrow only points in one direction, so a source written in 1911 cannot refute a source written in 1999. Nepaheshgar's argument is original research, and should not be included in the article. --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
(I should add that I posted here after a request by ChrisO on my talk page; but since I have participated in the discussion at Talk:Cyrus cylinder before, and it's still on my watchlist, I was planning to participate in this discussion anyway...) --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think an independent editor GenericBob has proposed the right solution and I am read to follow that formula. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there are a few misunderstandings here which I'll try to correct. I urge our uninvolved contributors here to look at Cyrus cylinder#As a charter of human rights to get some idea of the context of this discussion. Briefly, the prevailing view among academics is that interpreting the cylinder as a "charter of human rights" is wrong, but it's an interpretation that was advanced by the Shah's old regime and by Iranian nationalists since then. Wiesehofer states that this view originated with the Shah's regime in a 1967 book published under the Shah's name, and was subsequently heavily promoted by the Shah in connection with the 1971 celebrations of the 2,500th year of the Iranian monarchy. To address the three points raised by GenericBob:
(1) Our article doesn't quote the Shah at any point and certainly doesn't represent him as an expert. The Shah is only invoked through Wiesehofer's description of how his regime used the Cyrus cylinder as an instrument of propaganda.
(2) I don't think the CSJ snippet does address the question of "human rights". It speaks of sacred rights - i.e. rights bestowed by divine authority - not human rights. The CSJ piece doesn't mention "human rights" at all - it's purely Nepaheshgar's personal interpretation that it does. The CSJ piece also does not describe the cylinder itself as a "human rights charter", so it does not address the argument put forward by the Shah. Note that it says: "Cyrus believed in the sacred rights of individual freedom' and has a keen sense of human justice based upon the demands of principle." In other words, it is describing Cyrus's purported views, not the text of the cylinder. Nepaheshgar is reading into the CSJ piece something that simply isn't there.
(3) This does appear to be the key point. Nepaheshgar has for a long time objected to the (well-documented) view that the "human rights charter" interpretation is a product of the Shah's propaganda efforts. He is rather transparently trying to refute this by finding a source that he claims made this interpretation before the Shah. Except that it doesn't, as I've pointed out at (2).
Finally, I'd like to point out that we know absolutely nothing about who wrote the CSJ article. I've not found any other information about "Richard P. Verral" - assuming it's the name of a real person and not a pen name. He is mentioned again briefly in a 1947 edition of the Christian Science Sentinel, apparently as a speaker at some event. [27] He appears to have no published books or academic works. The CSJ piece in question does not appear to have been cited by any other sources. Do we have any reason to suppose that he is in any way a significant viewpoint? Quite apart from the problem with original research, I think it would be undue weight to use a 98-year-old source by an essentially unknown author which does not appear to have been picked up by any other sources. There's no indication that Verrel's viewpoint is in any way representative of or has influenced any wider body of opinion about the meaning of the Cyrus cylinder. -- ChrisO ( talk) 07:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Just to respond (note I am not pursuing the matter):
1) On point (2), the CSJ is talking about human-rights related concepts "individual freedom", "human justice". It does not need to mention human rights in particular, because these are components of Human rights. Also the author is talking about the cylinder because he quotes a portion of the cylinder first, and then in the next sentence he talks about "Cyrus's purported view". So obviously if someone quotes the cylinder, and then writes "Cyrus's puported view", he is taking Cyrus's purported view based upon the cylinder. On point (3), the only matter was simply to quote it without any intrepretation. But I have emailed Wiesehofer himself and I am sure he will get back to me. Afterwards, he will be the final authority to see if it contradicts him or not. Of course I will not edit the article (I have CC'ed two admins on that email), but simply we will see who is correct on this matter.
Thanks to GenericBob for providing an unbiased viewpoint. I am going to let it go right now for the best (there seems to be politics behind the issue rather than purely editorial pursuit and there is no reason to escalate it) but we can see a non-convanssed user gave exactly what would be the right viewpoint. Other users simply wanted to suppress information they did not like although this was the general charectirazation of the cylinder way before the Shah of Iran or even Pahlavids took power. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 14:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Some advice please? I don't want to bite a newcomer but I was very unsure what to do about Uganda, Acholi and today's contributions from 64.252.184.216. It may violate some policy, possibly this one, but I am not (indeed very far from) a policy expert. I was somewhat alarmed by the pasting-in of what might appear to be entire essays (check the page histories and watch the sizes) and it certainly doesn't to me read like an encyclopaedic contribution, but then what do I know? Advice please? Cheers DBaK ( talk) 14:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC) PS I've pointed out to the editor that this question is here. DBaK.
This editor's attempts to add OR material to the article include the use of his own original translation of a primary source to substantiate his claim. He appears to me to be an single issue editor who is actively engaged in agenda pushing. The discussion can be found here. In the subsequent RFC discussion he seems to have adopted a defensive posture, rejecting all comments that do not agree with his own. Could someone here lend a fresh pair of eyes to this very frustrating process? Thanks. ~ Alcmaeonid ( talk) 15:14, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
As discussed here this editor appears to be trying to add OR to this article by falsifying sources and citing them to support statements they do not make. Could I have some uninvolved eyes look over this editors' contributions? There seems to be an ongoing pattern of problematic edits. Tim Vickers ( talk) 15:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
If I'd stumbled across this article a week ago, I'd have just about stubbed it based on BLP issues alone, given the complete lack of sourcing on key points -- it's mostly a summary of the program based on an individual viewer's take on it -- the equivalent of a long plot summary in a TV or movie article. Its almost entirely OR, and I think it should be radically abridged, down to what is clearly reliably sourced, but it's sensitive enough right now that I don't quite want to go ahead without checking for objections. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 02:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Some editors argue that Taiwan is part of China based on the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758. However, the resolution only states that the seat of China has been transfered to the PRC, but doesn't say anything about Taiwan. Essentially, the resolution doesn't state what is meant by "China", and whether Taiwan is or isn't part of it. I would think that assuming anything about Taiwan based on this resolution is WP:OR, what do you think? Laurent ( talk) 10:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I hope this does not look too much like WP:forum shopping, but a discussion elsewhere has raised a point of principle, namely, is WP:OR allowed in framing category definitions or should categories always be based on well-established concepts? The examples I have in mind are those for national/lingustic/cultural groups of surnames. There used to be a [[Category:English surnames]], [[Category:Hungarian surnames]] and so on. The names and underlying concepts were supported by books and papers such as P. H. Reaney. A Dictionary of English Surnames. Oxford University Press. Now, however, we have [[Category:English-language surnames]], [[Category:Czech-language surnames]] etc, but there seems to no literature referring to these concepts by these names. Is this contrary to the spirit, perhaps also to the letter of WP:NOR? SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 12:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Is "will air alongside Samurai Sentai Shinkenger in TV Asahi's Super Hero Time programming block" in the Kamen Rider Double article original research? I think it is original research and Ryulong thinks its not original research. ( see me talk page) What do you think is it original research or not? Powergate92 Talk 17:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I had no idea we had a no original research noticeboard. What a trip down the rabbit hole this is. Regardless, my only comment on this is that it's usually pretty easy to find sources for even the most basic or trivial info. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you need to have inline citations for every common sense statement. There's a balance somewhere. And usually refs attached to other sentences "cover" for sentences that don't have any inline cites. If that makes any sense. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 19:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: {{ Future television}} articles should be very carefully sourced. I think one could both argue that it is OR and that it isn't, so we have a draw. The litmus test for inclusion here begins with whether it is important to describe the programming block. I'm not terribly convinced of the need to include it, but neither am I admittedly knowledgeable about the topic. If there is a clear pattern from past series, showing that the programming block is consistent and not subject to change, the one could argue for inclusion. But the problem of adding unsourced speculation to any type of upcoming/future topic artice is something to be concerned about. Then again, if one can accurately make this observation from a published report or listing, it would seal the deal. If no such link or reference exists, the material does border on OR, as we can't be sure of this information without some way to verify it. Viriditas ( talk) 13:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I contend whether he is/is not, as a topic of controversy, must be explicitly quoted from published sources, which sources contradict; therefore, for WPaedians to advance either side via their own argumentation is original research. (The article talkpage where this is being discussed is here: Talk:Jimmy Wales#Semantics of 'founder' wrt Sanger.) Any input? ↜Just M E here , now 20:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Larry Sanger is a co-founder of Wikipedia. Please see all the material collected and documented at the page "My role in Wikipedia (larrysanger.org)" -- Seth Finkelstein ( talk) 16:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
↜Just M E here , now 22:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)Larry Sanger himself argues (quote): I believe "founder" is used in two closely-related ways, depending on whether the thing founded is either a business enterprise, on the one hand, or a community project, movement, etc., on the other hand. In a business context, frequently, the founders of an enterprise are its original funders or sponsors. In a community context, however, the founders are those who had the most personal influence in getting a community started. So, for example, we might say the French government was a "founder" of the United States in the business sense, while Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were among the community founders. (end quote).
↜Just M E here , now 03:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)After a hard day's work, I sit down at a bar. (Why are these set pieces always in a bar, I wonder?)
"Gimme an English malt," I say, gesturing to a placard.
Bartender gives me an OE800.
A voice is heard from down the bar. It's man in a tweed jacket. "I'll have you know, sir, that brew is made in Milwaukee."
After mulling the bubbles in my beer for 3 7/8 seconds, I raise it to the man in a mock toast, "Ah, Wisconsin. Land of 800 lakes!" (with what I believe, at least, to be a wry smile -- )
"You reveal yourself a fool. The Land ofaTen Thousand Lakes is Minnesota," says the man.
I scratch my head...unsure of what the game is this gentleman and I are playing.
Hi, I need help. I'm author and have in my book a new word. In that matter it is extremely important to me to be able to be the first person motioning the word on the net. And what could be better the most known lexicon.
I have been in contact with the guys at the Swedish Wikipedia but I do not get a real explanation on my question.
I have read the policy about "No original research" but I can't find the information I seek. My question is. How established doses a word need to be before I can publish it on Wikipedia? Is it good enough to publish the word in my book and on some specific webpage’s? I use the word in all my courses, seminaries and similar.
Kind regards /Freddie
Hi and thanks for the quick answer. So if I understand you correct, there is no strict criteria’s to decide if a word is established or not, it's up to reviewer? How do you guys investigate if a word is established?
/Freddie
In the George Trenholm biography, an editor inserted his fringe theory that the fictitious character Rhett Butler in the novel Gone with the Wind is modeled after George Trenholm.
I tagged, challenged and removed the fringe theory almost one year ago. There are simply no reliable sources on this subject, other than the self-published book by the creator of this theory. Just recently, another editor believed the theory should be included in the biography, and inserted:
It is claimed that novelist Margaret Mitchell patterned her fictional character, Rhett Butler, on the life of Trenholm
The references given are:
This has lead to an edit war, as the references given are not solid enough to be included in an historical figure biography. The references are repeating hearsay/rumors and do not go into explanation on the matter. The 3O who is trying to assist is on the fence, but cited WP:UNDO and the claim/rumor should be dropped if no WP:RS could be cited.
Discussion here: Talk:George_Trenholm
What say thee? Jim ( talk) 11:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
Could somebody please take a look at the thread Talk:Evolutionary_argument_against_naturalism#Article_lead, particularly the discussion about the following proposed wording for the article lead;
Attempts have been made to link the argument with advocacy of Intelligent Design and it has been claimed that the argument is an attack on evolutionary theory itself. Whilst certain ID supporters have appealed to EAAN in support of their own anti-naturalistic claims, Plantinga has responded by asserting that the EAAN does not serve an anti-evolutionary purpose.
And advise whether it constitutes a violation of WP:SYNTH?
I commented on the above that;
I've offered a synthesis of what seem to me four quite easily demonstrated facts; (1) that certain ID theorists have "adopted" EAAN; (2) that Plantinga is sympathetic to ID; (3) that Plantinga denies that EAAN is an anti-evolutionary argument; (4) that Plantinga acknowledges that a theist may rationally believe in forms of evolution guided by God (re Biola lecture) - Which of 1-4 are you objecting to, and on which basis? And if your claim is that EAAN is an argument against evolution ("while X"), then what's your WP:RS?
To which the response;
I've offered a synthesis of what seem to me four quite easily demonstrated facts - please see WP:SYNTH. Taking "four quite easily demonstrated facts", and connecting them in a novel fashion, is against policy. So we can't do it here. No matter how many false attacks you sling my way, synthesis isn't allowed, whether SoP's initial stuff, or your new phrasing.
To which my response;
If I can close with only one procedural/policy observation: WP:SYNTH is specifically aimed at preventing editors from drawing conclusions on the basis of synthesis, not on preventing multi-point sentences. Using the term "synthesis" was poor form on my part, but I meant only that I had "put together" four points (1), (2), (3), (4). I did not draw a conclusion ("therefore (5)") and the WP:SYNTH objection is therefore misplaced.
This was rejected as an explanation, but I'm unable to see that I have violated WP:SYNTH as I although I carelessly made reference to a "synthesis" of four facts, I drew no conclusions. Any advice appreciated.
Thanks, -- Muzhogg ( talk) 23:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Boy do we need help in List of Grand Slam Women's Singles champions and List of Grand Slam Men's Singles champions. This content problem also affects doubles, mixed doubles, boy and girls websites on tennis slams. Background is that prior to the 1925 French Championships the tournament was not open to international play. The tournament actually started in 1891 but you had to belong to a French Tennis club to participate. The other 3 slams (US Open, Wimbledon and Australian Open) did not have this restriction though one person editing will argue that the other 3 slams' rules were a bit sketchy in the first few years. Every book, encyclopedia or magazine at your local bookstore or library will list all champions of all years of the French Championships... 1891 onwards, as they should since the person who won in 1895 did win the French title. No argument there.
The content problem is in listing slam wins for the above mentioned events. If you go to your local bookstore or library and look at almanacs, encyclopedias, espn sports guides, etc... and they list slam winners in tennis history you will not see any of them list the pre-1925 French winners as "slam" winners. They all say that because it was not an international event (i.e. open to all players) it is not counted. I have cited them in my edits and I will head to the library in the next few days to get more sources. The charts on the pages calculate the players slam wins so it is important we keep accurate numbers so that we can have item like most slam wins ever, most slam win in a row, most slam victories on one surface, etc. I feel those pre-1925 French winners should not be in the charts because the multitude of sources don't back up that they should. It seems like original research to contradict published information. Even if one or two guides can be shown to say otherwise the vast majority would say don't include those players.
But I am in an impasse with one editor that I have a history with and I really don't want to keep reverting his edits... but I don't want the article to suffer with inaccurate info. I need to clarify one other item. I had thought an agreement long ago might be a possible road to compromise but it has not worked. The original framers of the article (before my time) had listed the pre-1925 winners grayed out with no numbers to show they existed but that they weren't counted. We left it at that status quo but as time has worn on new editors saw the names and keep adding them to the numbering and other charts on a regular basis. I seem to be the only one who keeps fixing these things. The other editor never fixes any of these inaccuracies. To be fair neither does anyone else usually. This situation is getting tiresome and I want this to be a good accurate article. We all have other beefs of chart order, colors, etc... but those are visual things they may need standard mediation. This pre-1925 thing is a major content item and I really don't know what to do about it without daily reverts. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated or if this is the wrong place to post kindly tell me what is my best alternative. Thanks. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 09:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Should this edit be reverted? Three (links to abstracts of) patents are being cited to support the statement "[The company was founded by] David T. Hon, a former laser physicist". 58.8.209.249 ( talk) 09:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I am party to an ongoing dispute here. Following advice found at WP:DR, I am seeking opinions about some questions raised.
1) The section in the article being discussed includes a citation to a published paper. After asking several times, no editor admits to actually having read this paper. The question is: Does a citation need to be "verified" or is simply being "verifiable" enough?
2) Another question is the neutrality. I see that WP:UNDUE requires that neutrality match the proportion of prominence of opinions found in the published reliable sources. (As opposed to the proportion of personal opinions of the editors which may be instead based on original research or on dubious sourcing.) To verify that the proportion matches the published reliable sources it seems there needs to be discussion of what reliable sources are being considered. The other editors in this dispute claim they have no obligation to disclose which sourcing they use to form an opinion about the proper neutrality balance.
Excerpts from the talk page discussion:
"Editors may choose to contribute based on whatever knowledge they have on the subject and should not be obligated to share the source of their knowledge." [29]
"...nobody has any obligation to answer any of your questions" [30]
"Editors ... are not required to disclose the source of their knowledge here on the discussion page." [31]
For editor neutrality judgments: Is there an obligation to disclose how their sourcing is reliable or how can we confirm that the sourcing being used is not the original research of the editor? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 18:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Salty... You're asking at the wrong place... your questions do not relate to the concept of No Original Research... they are questions for other policy pages... ask about verifiability at WT:V and Undue at WT:NPOV. Thanks. Blueboar ( talk) 21:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
(Some text temporarily removed for technical reasons. Will fix in a minute. Hans Adler 20:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC))
Would someone care to express an opinion here as to whether presenting plot items from the film itself (using the film itself as a source, per WP:FILM), and other reliable sources about real-life events, constitutes invalid synthesis? Rodhull andemu 00:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Huh? How is that any different than —
NOVEL | FILM |
---|---|
Edward has red hair. | Edward has blond hair. |
Maggie is 43 years of age. | Maggie is 37 years of age. |
That is clearly Synthesis, just as clearly as —
Differences between film and novel
Edward has red hair in the novel. Edward has blond hair in the film. Also, Maggie appears to be 43 years of age in the novel. In the film Maggie is 37 years old.
All you're doing is leaving our comparative conjunctions to make it appear the WP editor is not making the connection or comparison. 173.72.140.146 ( talk) 14:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
::Exactly... If we were to say something like: "In the film, Edward has blond hair, but this is inaccurate because in reality he had red hair" we would an OR violation (as we would be stating a conclusion... ie that the film is inaccurate). Mearly pointing out the fact that the film and some other source differ is fine.
Blueboar (
talk) 14:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Getting back to the point here... I don't think it is OR to include statements as to the differences between a fictional movie and the non-fictional source that the movie is based upon (this is going to be true of any fictional work that is based upon reality). So long as all we are doing is saying "the movie depicts X while the book says Y", we are not synthisizing. We are mearly comparing and contrasting sources. We do this with sources all the time in our articles. However, I would agree that petty details like "so and so had brown hair in the movie, but was a blond in real life" is little more than trivia. But something like (just to make something up): "The movie depicts one of the tunnels being discovered by the Germans. This is not mentioned in any of the historical accounts" would be more than trivia and might be worth mentioning. Blueboar ( talk) 21:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Normally an article about differences between a film and another work or event would be contained within the article, unless there's so much info that it's too large. But those differences still need proper sourcing. The first thing that came to mind is The Natural. The most obvious difference in the book vs. the film is the 180 degree difference in the way they end. Pointing that out could be argued to be OR, except that it's verifiable by the reader/viewer. And furthermore, it's discussed in the DVD special, so there's no need for OR. But when comparing a real-life event with a film, if something is asserted to be different, the question might arise, "How do you know?" If it requires a lengthy discussion about "the film says this while this historical book says that", then that's OR. But if the answer is, "So-and-so film critic pointed it out here", then that erases the OR. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
At Talk:USS Texas (BB-35) there is an ongoing (civil) dispute between IronShip and a few other editors over alleged inaccurate information in the article USS Texas (BB-35). IronShip has produced what should be reliable sources for his information in the form of deck logs, cruise books, and other official medium from the battleship which he believes will allow the incorrect material to be corrected since the threshold for inclusion here is verifiability, not truth. Unfortunately though, we have hit a snag: the material is not available online or in a readily accessible print format. To resolve this problem a proposal has been raised to have the material added to the talk page in the form of images, which should resolve the information dispute by providing the sources for the claims, but we are unsure of the extent of the OR policies on wikipedia as it applies to this strategy. Can we do this, or will we have to come up with a different plan of action? TomStar81 ( Talk) 05:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
"Three minutes thought would suffice to find this out; but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time." A.E. Housman Camelbinky ( talk) 14:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
All of the primary sources that I cite (log book, cruise reports, war diary, action reports) are available to anyone (viewing or purchase) from the National Archives and Records Administration. This is where I obtained most of my copies. No FOIA is required. IronShip ( talk) 00:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
On that Green Day related article, the song, 21 Guns, I was wondering if this is original research, because it is most likely not in a source. But let me tell you that it can be proven, and it is a fact, it's just a fact that no one has thought of before.
The fact is: the Pop 100 stopped its charting about a month ago and so it was discontinued, but I wanted to say that that was why 21 Guns was so far back on the Pop 100, because it could not chart anymore. And you know that's true, but how can you prove it? I just feel that users should know that.
Is that original research? Because I feel like it is, but it is something that can be actually proven, because the facts are all there, they just haven't been put together in one link. -- Zzguitar14 ( talk) 15:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like some outside input. I performed a very basic merger of earthquake light and earthquake cloud into earthquake weather ( stable version). The merger had been proposed for a while, as they all relate to atmospheric conditions preceding or coinciding with earthquakes. An editor has claimed that this is OR, as the clouds and lights are "not what people have in mind when they say earthquake weather". I have never heard anyone say this phrase, I only knew the title from an album by Joe Strummer. Even if this is a common piece of folklore, I don't see how adding real-world context is bad, and I certainly don't see how this is OR. Please see the full discussion at Talk:Earthquake_weather#lights, and I would appreciate comments (either way) there. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 23:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
A draft of revised material for Views of Lyndon LaRouche#Gays and AIDS is here: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS. It contains a paragraph that describes two incidents that were reported in reliable sources. Here are excerpts from those sources:
Here is the proposed text:
FYI, there is also a widely reported incident [32] in which a representative verbally harassed Henry Kissinger with a sexual allegation at an airport, resulting in an altercation with his wife. The follower pressed charges, and it went to trial, but the Nancy Kissinger was found not guilty. That material is problably relevant too and might be added. The draft already has several sources that explicitly say LaRouche himself has a history of attacking gays and of attacking opponents with charges of homosexuality. Also, this matter was first raised at WP:RSN#The Times of London when an editor said the reporting may be incorrect, but that was withdrawn. The editor said the larger issue was WP:NOR, so this is moving here. The question is: does this summary violate WP:SYNTH? Will Beback talk 00:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I could go on listing sources that link the views of LaRouche followers to LaRouche, but but I think that last source helps cover the matter of supposed original research. LaRouche urged his followers to spread panic, and they did what he told them to. I see no source that in any way implies that LaRouche's followers and activists, when acting on his behalf, express ideas idfferent than his own. Unless an uninvolved editor has a different view on this, I don't think we're any closer to supporting your assertion that there is improper synthesis here. Will Beback talk 22:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)