-
A455bcd9
Look at this image.
- 1 Is Hassaniyya spoken in all of Western Sahara except for the small area where Moroccan is spoken?
- 2 Is it those three small areas for Hassaniyya?
- 3 I don't understand which part it's supposed to be for Hassaniyya? --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 17:05, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: I've just been unbanned :) Copying here what I wrote earlier on my talk page:
- Yes: all of Western Sahara except for the small area where Moroccan is spoken
- Yes: Ethnologue also says "
Tindouf Province" for Hassaniya in Algeria, see
here
- Ethnologue says for Hassaniya in Morocco "proper": "
Souss-Massa-Drâa region:
Mhamid, western Algeria border", see
here => so small that you can probably forget about it...
- Thanks again for your help!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 19:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 I'm so happy it all worked out for you and so quickly.
- ----
- The drafts I show you are PNG versions of the original SVG file I'm working in and will upload to commons.
- The drafts are shown for proofreading only.
- ----
- I want to check some things before I continue
- Sometimes you have to exaggerate the size of very small areas which I have done here, so for this and what to come, just tell me if you want me to make some smaller or remove.
- We have some 30 areas with different colors and to me it's very difficult to distinguish them, especially for people with color deficiency so I suggest we also use numbers as I have done in this draft.
- Check this draft
as-1 and give me feedback if this is an acceptecal way for us to work on this. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 11:32, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9: I'm also glad it all worked out in the end.
M.Bitton (
talk) 23:58, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, I'm glad as well :)
- Regarding your questions:
- "exaggerate the size of very small areas": OK
- colors: I'm
red/green colorblind so this is definitely an issue for me. I like the approach you proposed!
-
A455bcd9 (
talk) 13:41, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
M.Bitton: thanks!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 07:55, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 I want you to check a draft for each area that I have completed so it won't be to much to edit/check.
- For this first draft I would like you to tell me which of the two variations you want, grey or colored numbers. Check all the areas, thanks.
- --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:29, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: looks amazing! I prefer the grey numbers. (I have difficulties reading some colored numbers.)
A455bcd9 (
talk) 15:52, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Draft 6-9. I had some problems with some areas so tell me what to edit, thanks. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 17:03, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: looks perfect to me (for "Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Western Sahara" & "Libya and Egypt"), thanks!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 18:08, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 I can't figure
this map out, you will have to help me here or show me another map. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 For all of the maps regarding Mali, I can't find the language "Hassaniya Arabic (mey)" in them? --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, hi! Re. Mali:
Hasanya Arabic in the North, in an area shared with Tamasheq,
top left hand corner with Tamashed,
top left hand corner in one area alone and in another with Soninke.
- Regarding Niger: I'll try to find another map, let's focus on other countries in the meantime.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 17:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- For Niger @
Goran tek-en, here are four maps (one for each Arabic dialect spoken in Niger) that should be able to make sense of the general Niger map:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yqIOWXaVrsYbzt6YL2d8xonsT0iAyY__?usp=sharing Please let me know if you have further questions.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 17:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 Two things:
- the maps you shared by drive was very good for me, easy to see and I can copy-trace from them as the are based on OpenStreetMap, much easier for me, thanks
- we have the same vernacular in different countries, should they not have the same color but different numbers or do you want to keep it like this?
-
Draft 11-15. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 12:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: Good to know for the maps. "same vernacular in different countries" => yes, should have the same number and same color, in particular I think the following:
- Hassaniyya (mey): 1, 10, 12, 15
- Libyan: 6, 13
- Algerian Saharan (aao): 3, 11
-
A455bcd9 (
talk) 13:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 And the draft, fine? --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 14:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en Perfect 👌
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 You wouldn't have the same type of map for Tchad that you linked to in your drive? --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: yes, Chadian Arabic (Shuwa) in Chad is
here. I think that the rest of the country (besides the core areas where Shuwa is mentioned) should be hatched as Ethnologue says it's "widespread" in Chad.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 16:30, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Check everything as I have edited numbers, colors.
- Sudan both. To me the Ethnologue maps are covering the whole of the countries, not an area, the P 194 map shows an area, which should it be I don't understand.
- Sudan south. You are giving me too much information I don't know what to do with it. Please just give me the maps to follow and be specific, if you have the other type of maps (based on OSM) please provide them as first option for each area/country.
- --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 17:36, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: looks great! 10 & 11 should be of the same color (Chadian/Shuwa Arabic).
A455bcd9 (
talk) 17:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, for the Sudans, I suggest:
- Using the map p. 194 as the core area of Sudanese Arabic (apd),
- Hatch the rest of (North) Sudan in the same color (the one of Sudanese Arabic (apd))
- Using
this map (Carte 1, p. 11) as the core area of Sudanese Creole Arabic (pga) (Arabe de Juba (arabi juba) on Carte 1)
- Hatch the rest of South Sudan using the colors of BOTH Sudanese Arabic (apd) and Sudanese Creole Arabic (pga)
-
A455bcd9 (
talk) 17:57, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Draft av_11-12 --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 11:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Amazing @
Goran tek-en!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 12:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 I'm not sure I got those right,
draft 8, 13-17 --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 13:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, it's all correct! In terms of style, when two dialects share the same area (such as 8 & 14 in Jordan, or 13 & 17 in Syria), would it be possible to hatch without seeing the background (currently there's one band of one color, one band of another color, and then one band with the background [so a "transparent band"])? [it's a detail that we can fix later if you prefer]
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:19, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 @
A455bcd9 This is something I have been thinking of also. So far (to my understanding) we have two variations when a dialect is not covering 100% of an area.
- widely spread (10, 11)
- mixed dialects (11-12, 13-14, 13-17)
- is this correct?
- If this is correct I will show the mixed areas in a different way so there is a clear difference between them, but then you will have to tell me which is widely or mixed. It's also always difficult when you have both big and small areas to be covered with the same pattern. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en 100% correct!
A455bcd9 (I've just checked the remaining maps and the situation of 'mixed dialects' won't happen much, so we're almost done with the problematic areas, the rest should be simpler, or at least I hope so...) (
talk) 17:38, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
A455bcd9
Iraq draft and new patterns, but check all as I often have to move stuff around --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 17:37, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: looks perfect, thanks a lot!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 18:02, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 I really don't think you could have checked everything this quickly. I ask you to really check it as finding problems later on will be so much more difficult for me to fix. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 18:14, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en I saw your message EXACTLY when you posted it (I was editing on Wikipedia at the same time) and directly checked the map. It took me about 15-20 minutes. I confirm that everything is correct.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 18:15, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Draft up to 26 --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 12:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: thanks! There are 3 issues:
- The inset for Bahrein should not cover Iran, where there are also Arabic speakers (as we'll see later). We could put the inset in the middle of the
Indian Ocean instead.
- In
Oman, the area hatched with white in the middle of the country should be plain "18". Indeed, the other language spoken in this area is "Harsusi", which is not an Arabic dialect. We only consider Arabic varieties for the purpose of this map.
- The varieties spoken in the
Musandam Governorate (Omani exclave) are Gulf Arabic (18 on your map, correct) and Shihhi Arabic. However, Shihhi Arabic doesn't appear on your map, you used Omani Arabic instead (22 on your map). So we need to add Shihhi Arabic (new variant not on the current map) and color this area accordingly.
- Please let me know if you have any questions. Cheers,
A455bcd9 (
talk) 12:51, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
- Inset, yeah I will move it as needed when it arises.
- I know, that is why I only have one color in it leaving the second color/dialect not visible. But if yo want it full I will change it here and in other places also, so tell me.
- I forgot to put out a new number for that, right now country borders are about the same color as 22 but that is just for now and to help me.
- --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 13:41, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 For Tajikistan map, which areas, arabic has always been green but this is confusing, tell what labels to use, thanks. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 13:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en:
- Inset: OK, thanks.
- Oman, hatched area: please fill up this area totally with the "18" color. No need for a hatched area here as the other language spoken in this area is not an Arabic variety. I don't think there are other areas in the current map where this situation arises.
- Got it, thanks.
- Tajikistan: there's only one small area on
the map in the south west near
Qubodiyon where "Tajiki Spoken Arabic" (abh) is spoken. It is not green on this map because the color is for "
Afro-Asiatic", the family to which Arabic belongs. (they used another shade of green for Turkic on this map, but it is of no relevance to us).
- Please let me know if you have questions. Cheers,
A455bcd9 (
talk) 15:24, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
- @
Goran tek-en, you're correct, we have the same situation in Northern Cameroon: it's perfect.
- Here's
Figure 32.1 (mentioned for Djibouti, Sénégal, Kenya, and Uganda, for inspiration...)
A455bcd9 (
talk) 19:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also @
Goran tek-en: this is a detail (and if you don't want to change it, it's fine for me) but sometimes there's no border between areas (e.g., in Algeria, between 4 and 5) whereas sometimes there's a thin white border (e.g., in Chad, between 10 plain and 10 hatched; in South Sudan, between 12 plain and 12/11 hatched; in Saudi Arabia, between 13/20 hatched and 20 plain and 13 hatched): I feel like (but I'm not sure) it may be better without this white border: have you tried?
A455bcd9 (
talk) 20:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 The reason for those borders is that when there is a solid color next to a hatched (widely spread) or round pattern (mixed dialects) area I added this thin empty space (visible as a thin line) so that there are a distinction between the different types of fill. To me it's much more visible where the different areas has it boundaries, easier to view and understand the map. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 13:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- OK got it @
Goran tek-en, thanks for the clarification!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 13:50, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 Djibouti, what do you want me to see at
this link. How do I access the page and map you are referring to? --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 14:19, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I sent you the link above (message from 19:54, 31 October 2022 (UTC)). It's
here.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en forgot to ping you, sorry.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Draft Cyprus, Central African Republic, Malta, Djibouti, Senegal, Eritrea --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 14:53, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en:
- Cyprus: you colored the whole
Northern Cyprus, but only a few areas have Cypriot Arabic speakers, mainly in
Kormakitis,
Nicosia,
Limassol, and
Peristerona as shown on the map. Be careful: they used green for Turkish on that map, which is confusing...
- Central African Republic: OK
- Malta: OK
- Djibouti: OK
- Senegal: I wasn't clear enough, sorry: only the
Matam Region and the
Saint-Louis Region should be hatched
- Eritrea: OK
-
A455bcd9 (
talk) 15:17, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 The areas in Cyprus is really small,
new draft --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 16:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, yes it's tiny... Perfect map: we're good to go and almost done :)
A455bcd9 (
talk) 16:55, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 Iran, there are so many different sources showing different areas and to my understanding your sources for the two different dialects overlap each other. So I would really need a clarification, as few sources as possible and just tell me which area should be which dialect, mixes etc, thanks. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 11:22, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en OK sorry, so for Iran:
- Is it clearer?
A455bcd9 (
talk) 11:27, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 Yes, thanks. I will need the same for Turkey.
- Drafts Kenya, Uganda, Iran. Two variations with and without "insets" (not true insets) and if you choose without I will move the number.
-
with inset
-
no inset
- --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 11:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: Iran is perfect. For Kenya & Uganda: no inset please.
- For Turkey:
this map:
- "Syrian dialects" (dark) = North Levantine Arabic (apc)
- "Mesopotamian qeltu dialects" (vertical stripes) = North Mesopotamian Arabic (ayp)
- "Shawi dialects" (light) = Mesopotamian Arabic (acm)
-
A455bcd9 (
talk) 12:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
- Shuwa, The grey on
this draft is what's supposed to be #10 according to
this image but it overlaps hatched and other colors so I don't know what to follow, what is correct for the different parts. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 14:39, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, sorry I wasn't clear. This "grey" should be of the same color as "10" and plain (not hatched) because they're both Chadian Arabic, but from different sources. Do this for Niger (but don't bother for the small area where this "grey" overlaps with the Libyan Arabic strip: ignore it), Chad, Nigeria, Cameroon, and the Central African Republic. For Sudan and South Sudan I feel like it's gonna be too hard to do something nice; so let's do nothing, unless you can think of a nice way to overlap this "grey" (Baggara/Chadian Arabic) with the existing dialects in Sudan and South Sudan.
- Let me know if you have any questions.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
A455bcd9 Two drafts for the area discussed above.
- @
Goran tek-en: I prefer the "not changed Sudan", thanks for trying the other one though.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 20:55, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9 Which one?
- @
Goran tek-en wow, "second attempt Sudan" is amazing! Thanks and congrats.
A455bcd9 (
talk) 14:48, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, there's a blue dot in the middle of the Central African Republic: I think it's a mistake, isn't it?
A455bcd9 (
talk) 15:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
A455bcd9
Israel and all before, check everything, thanks.
- I didn't "fill" the parts in West bank but followed the map. If you want me to "fill" just say so, we could also make an inset if you think it's important. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 15:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, it's amazing. I'll take some time to review it and get back to you asap. (poke @
Pathawi)
A455bcd9 (
talk) 15:44, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Thanks for the poke,
A455bcd9 (
talk ·
contribs).) This looks fantastic. I'll try to give this detailed review tonight & tomorrow, but at first glance this is great. This is an enormous amount of work,
Goran tek-en (
talk ·
contribs). Thank you.
Pathawi (
talk) 15:59, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Pathawi@
A455bcd9 I have started to think about the legend that you want in the information part. To my understanding we can do in at least two different ways.
- 1 Have the 31 colors and respective dialect
- 2 I think we could divide it in to areas/countries, like the request is and within each area have color-dialect
- Version 2 will be longer, more information but you would have the area/country information.
- Give me feedback or maybe you have some other version/way to organize this. --always ping me--
Goran tek-en (
talk) 16:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: I incline toward the former. The earlier map had 26 or so "dialects", & that was already quite a lot. Listing each dialect just once, we'll have 31 here. Going country-by-country will involve a fair bit of repetition, & I think would get unwieldy. It ought to be possible to use this map as the basis for country-specific maps on pages like
Languages of Egypt, & I think that might address any increase in utility that a reader would get from a country-by-country break-down.
Pathawi (
talk) 16:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en, I agree with @
Pathawi: let's keep it simple, one dialect = one color (it's already hard enough for color blind people like me with 31 colors!).
- Few remarks, by dialect:
- Hassaniyya: the area near the Algerian border is actually
M'Hamid El Ghizlane, so a bit more inside Morocco
- Moroccan: Perfect ✅
- Saharan: Perfect ✅
- Algerian: Perfect ✅
- Tunisian:
Djerba should be colored as well (note: Ethnologue forgot to include the island in their map,
they'll fix this issue in the next edition)
- Libyan: Perfect ✅
- Egyptian: the whole
Greater Cairo (
Cairo Governorate +
Giza +
6th of October +
Sheikh Zayed City +
Shubra El Kheima +
Obour (city)) should be colored as belonging to this dialect area. (Note: Ethnologue's map was unclear here.)
- Eastern Egyptian Bedawi/Levantine Bedawi: a/ For me 7 and 8 appear as of the same color, could you please change one of these to make them more distinguishable? b/ The multiple lines pointing to the small areas along the
Red Sea coast in Egypt are hard to read. What about deleting these lines and instead circling the whole area (similar to
this map)?
- Sa’idi: A/ As said above, let's exclude the whole
Greater Cairo. B/ Sa’idi is also spoken in the western "band" together with Libyan, so this area should be hatched with Sa’idi & Libyan as shown on
this map (was hard to understand, I missed it as well and only realized the issue now...)
- Chadian/Shuwa/Baggara: one small area in the West of Chad is missing (see
map: the "3;5" area on the left near the Niger border)
- Sudanese: Perfect ✅
- Juba: Perfect ✅
- Najdi: Perfect ✅
- South Levantine: please "fill" the map in the West Bank: west = South Levantine (14) and East = Bedawi (8). Inset not needed I think.
- North Levantine: Perfect ✅
- North Mesopotamian/Qeltu: Perfect ✅
- Mesopotamian/Gilit: Perfect ✅
- Gulf: Perfect ✅
- Baharna: Perfect ✅
- Hijazi: no need to add lines to the small islands in the Red Sea. One line to the Eritrean coast is enough.
- Shihhi: Perfect ✅
- Omani: Perfect ✅
- Dhofari: Perfect ✅
- Sanaani: Perfect ✅
- Ta’izzi-Adeni: Perfect ✅
- Hadrami: color too close to 25 for me
- Uzbeki: Perfect ✅
- Tajiki: Perfect ✅
- Cypriot: Perfect ✅ (should we do an inset?)
- Maltese: worth adding a circle around Malta? (done on many maps such as
File:Anglophone World.svg)
- Ki-Nubi: Perfect ✅
- If possible, numbers shouldn't be on a country's border or on a dialect's border, especially:
- 8
- 14
- 15
- 16
- 18
- 19 (this one may be okay?)
- 23 (we could put it in the sea as you did with 21 and 22)
- 25
- Besides these small corrections, it's a WONDERFUL map: thank you so much @
Goran tek-en!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 18:38, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Other details @
Goran tek-en:
- Could we reduce the number or length of some black lines? For instance for 2/Moroccan, instead of two long lines coming from "2" we could have one long and another small connecting the small southern area to the other bigger southern area (as you did for 18)
- The colors of 27 and 28 are too close (what about using yellow for one of them?)
- 15 and 16 are also too similar
- Thanks for your help!
A455bcd9 (
talk) 07:59, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- @
Goran tek-en: 11 and 20 are also too similar for me. 20 and 25 as well. (sorry, only realizing this point now...)
A455bcd9 (
talk) 12:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
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