The article was delisted by Nikkimaria via FACBot ( talk) 2:37, 20 August 2022 (UTC) [1].
This featured article review is one of six procedural nominations, as considerable issues have been found in other Featured articles by the same nominator. Thus the article needs to be immediately reassessed. The original nominator is blocked. Note that this does not necessarily mean that it is not up to standard, but that it needs to be checked. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from Gerda I have been invited and feel responsible as this is about German literature. I am not familiar with the elegies, though (but read Malte Laurids Brigge when growing up), and I have often trouble recognising what something given in English might have been in German. Often - in this article - only English is given, and even when there are both, there's this trouble, such as "aus der Engel Ordnungen" (from the legendary first line) which has no hint of "hierarchies".
I did a round of copy-edits, dropping some extra years of people with a link, removing links to common terms, such things. I tried to use the past tense for Rilke's writing process throughout, - a major change - thinking that this was clearly written in a past, and doesn't profit from a construed immediacy. I left the present tense for the writer of the last lines, - no idea yet who that is and what his evalution counts.
I did this today in fond memory of Brian Boulton whose birthday is today, and who supported the FAC in 2013, hoping that in the end, we can support his view. I plan to do a round of source-checking, and may also look at the equivalent German article. Both probably not today.
Last time I dealt with a poetry article by the same author, Victoria was very helpful, but I don't know about her availability and readiness for this subject. That article is now part of a featured topic, thanks to Eddie891 who might also be a good advisor here. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:31, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from Kusma Not sure if I'll manage a full review, just wanted to comment on something Gerda said: I find the "hierarchies of angels" not implausible at all, and this translation also uses "angelic hierarchies" for "angelic orders". May check back later. — Kusma ( talk) 16:54, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Just saw this. I'll work on verifying the integrity of text to source where I can. Though, the next three weeks will be touch and go until I have time to focus. I'll also edit as I go, hoping to keep it light as the article looks thorough on the surface. Gerda, if my edits get in your way, let me know. Wtfiv ( talk) 18:40, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Update?
If this is trying to be retained as featured, it should probably also be updated. The last translation mentioned dates from 1981, but by now we have also 2000, 2013 and 2014, among others. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Gerda pinged me here. All I have to add is that many years ago I made a few clean up edits to When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd (same editor) and did find some issues - though don't remember exactly what off the top of my head. The editor uses the "rp" citation style, so it's easy to find their additions. Victoria ( tk) 19:05, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply
See the source check at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Geology Hall, New Brunswick, New Jersey/archive1, which is similar to what has been found in every ColonelHenry FA looked at so far; every source will need to be checked. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 09:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from wtfiv Working with Gerda and Grimes2, We've fully converted the article to sfn. Citation page numbers are now linked. Between Gerda and I, they have all been verified. (I looked at them all, but as you know Sandy, my work could use spotchecking. So one more pair of eyes wouldn't hurt). I checked sources for cite-text linkage. Removing both sources and text when it didn't align, and seeking out new sources to preserve the general form of the article. Overall, I think ColonelHenry did a pretty good job with this article. There were a few...how do you say...interesting non-alignments, but most could be saved with a new source. I even learned that some of the language in the article has taken on a life of its own, being published in multiple books without attribution, one even in an academic publisher!
In addition, I'm also suggesting deleting "Further Reading". That section always strikes me as problematic, as it can be used as an ever-growing source of promotion and even self-promotion that seems quite arbitrary from the outside. Beyond that and minor changes, I feel we've addressed the major FAR concern, and I've done what I committed to: cleaning up citation integrity and creating verifiable sources. Though, I'm still available if needed. Wtfiv ( talk) 04:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Comment from Victoria
Chiming in re this discussion I noticed on Gerda's page. Short version is that the sentence should be deleted. Long version is that the evolution is interesting: the idea is added here, expanded here, cited to primary source, rewritten here, cited to Rilke, beauty/suffering cited to Gass here. What Gass says here is that angels, who embody perfection, fail to intervene in human suffering. I don't quite get "weigh beauty and existential suffering" from Gass's text. The sentence definitely isn't a quotation from Gass (and similar such artifacts should be checked), and in my view should not be presented in Wiki voice in the lead. I've not looked to see whether Gass is a Rilke scholar and definitely merits inclusion. If yes, then Gass should be properly paraphrased in the body and then those points distilled and maybe re-added to the lead w/ different phrasing. Victoria ( tk) 15:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Additional comments from wtfiv I think I need to reiterate a point I made and then respond to Victoria's point, as I raised the "weigh beauty and existential suffering" issue in the first place.
Additional comments (Victoria) This should have been a procedural FAR, the article delisted, and probably stubbed back to its pre-Col. Henry, 5 Dec. 2012 version, per the account's original ban discussion and per today's comment from the blocking admin ( Risker who says "I'd suggest taking the article back to bare bones of what can be sourced with confidence and then delisting it," ( diff). Instead there have been 300 or more edits, the referencing style has been overhauled and made robust, attempts have been made to match text to references, all of which is a tremendous amount of work that shouldn't be overlooked and cast aside. That said, the questions now are a.) are there still textual problems; and b.) is it FA quality? From a brief look I believe there are lingering textual problems, and despite the robust citation syntax the article fails Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
I've found the following issues from looking at "Publication and reception" and only portions of "Symbolism and themes" and "Influence".
In the second para about Adorno, the first sentence cites Adorno for an extended quote; the next sentence has a double citation to an abstract at "Philipine e-journals"? Why? If we have access to Adorno, then we should be paraphrasing him; otherwise suggest deleting. Only a single page of Adorno is viewable - the page with the quote - so it's impossible to contextualize what he's saying. My interpretation is he thinks the elegies are poorly written, bad poetry, not actually literally evil. But again, without the full text it's impossible to tell. Adorno is 1964, so the reception section spans immediately post-publication in 1923 and stops in 1964. Seems there should be more?
In all it took six edits to fix two sentences, [2].
Obviously the article has seen tremendous work and improvements but judging from those few sections there are still sourcing issues, i.e a search on Google scholar for Rilke "Duino Elegies", here gives a large number of results. Of the first three secondary sources on the first page of the search result, Gass, Bell, McDonald, Hollander, we quote one from a separate source and don't use any of the others. Probably a lit search is in order, rather than trying to fit existing text with search strings to pages viewable on the internet. In other words of the criteria, 1 is not satisfied, 2.c. is satisfied, not sure about 3 or 4. Bottom line, we should go ahead and delist. Victoria ( tk) 19:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC) replyThe Eligies raise a number of questions. What is their subject? Is it primarily the creative act – the life, death, being, transformation of art, of poetry itself? Does Rilke take Life for his subject? Or is it primarily the Life of Art? I believe that the Eligies must be seen as the experience of being human, which includes the experience of art ...Cohn, Stephen. "Introduction", in Duino Eligies, A Bilingual Edition, (1998) p.18,
The article was delisted by Nikkimaria via FACBot ( talk) 2:37, 20 August 2022 (UTC) [1].
This featured article review is one of six procedural nominations, as considerable issues have been found in other Featured articles by the same nominator. Thus the article needs to be immediately reassessed. The original nominator is blocked. Note that this does not necessarily mean that it is not up to standard, but that it needs to be checked. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from Gerda I have been invited and feel responsible as this is about German literature. I am not familiar with the elegies, though (but read Malte Laurids Brigge when growing up), and I have often trouble recognising what something given in English might have been in German. Often - in this article - only English is given, and even when there are both, there's this trouble, such as "aus der Engel Ordnungen" (from the legendary first line) which has no hint of "hierarchies".
I did a round of copy-edits, dropping some extra years of people with a link, removing links to common terms, such things. I tried to use the past tense for Rilke's writing process throughout, - a major change - thinking that this was clearly written in a past, and doesn't profit from a construed immediacy. I left the present tense for the writer of the last lines, - no idea yet who that is and what his evalution counts.
I did this today in fond memory of Brian Boulton whose birthday is today, and who supported the FAC in 2013, hoping that in the end, we can support his view. I plan to do a round of source-checking, and may also look at the equivalent German article. Both probably not today.
Last time I dealt with a poetry article by the same author, Victoria was very helpful, but I don't know about her availability and readiness for this subject. That article is now part of a featured topic, thanks to Eddie891 who might also be a good advisor here. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:31, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from Kusma Not sure if I'll manage a full review, just wanted to comment on something Gerda said: I find the "hierarchies of angels" not implausible at all, and this translation also uses "angelic hierarchies" for "angelic orders". May check back later. — Kusma ( talk) 16:54, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Just saw this. I'll work on verifying the integrity of text to source where I can. Though, the next three weeks will be touch and go until I have time to focus. I'll also edit as I go, hoping to keep it light as the article looks thorough on the surface. Gerda, if my edits get in your way, let me know. Wtfiv ( talk) 18:40, 4 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Update?
If this is trying to be retained as featured, it should probably also be updated. The last translation mentioned dates from 1981, but by now we have also 2000, 2013 and 2014, among others. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Gerda pinged me here. All I have to add is that many years ago I made a few clean up edits to When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd (same editor) and did find some issues - though don't remember exactly what off the top of my head. The editor uses the "rp" citation style, so it's easy to find their additions. Victoria ( tk) 19:05, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply
See the source check at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Geology Hall, New Brunswick, New Jersey/archive1, which is similar to what has been found in every ColonelHenry FA looked at so far; every source will need to be checked. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 09:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply
Comments from wtfiv Working with Gerda and Grimes2, We've fully converted the article to sfn. Citation page numbers are now linked. Between Gerda and I, they have all been verified. (I looked at them all, but as you know Sandy, my work could use spotchecking. So one more pair of eyes wouldn't hurt). I checked sources for cite-text linkage. Removing both sources and text when it didn't align, and seeking out new sources to preserve the general form of the article. Overall, I think ColonelHenry did a pretty good job with this article. There were a few...how do you say...interesting non-alignments, but most could be saved with a new source. I even learned that some of the language in the article has taken on a life of its own, being published in multiple books without attribution, one even in an academic publisher!
In addition, I'm also suggesting deleting "Further Reading". That section always strikes me as problematic, as it can be used as an ever-growing source of promotion and even self-promotion that seems quite arbitrary from the outside. Beyond that and minor changes, I feel we've addressed the major FAR concern, and I've done what I committed to: cleaning up citation integrity and creating verifiable sources. Though, I'm still available if needed. Wtfiv ( talk) 04:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Comment from Victoria
Chiming in re this discussion I noticed on Gerda's page. Short version is that the sentence should be deleted. Long version is that the evolution is interesting: the idea is added here, expanded here, cited to primary source, rewritten here, cited to Rilke, beauty/suffering cited to Gass here. What Gass says here is that angels, who embody perfection, fail to intervene in human suffering. I don't quite get "weigh beauty and existential suffering" from Gass's text. The sentence definitely isn't a quotation from Gass (and similar such artifacts should be checked), and in my view should not be presented in Wiki voice in the lead. I've not looked to see whether Gass is a Rilke scholar and definitely merits inclusion. If yes, then Gass should be properly paraphrased in the body and then those points distilled and maybe re-added to the lead w/ different phrasing. Victoria ( tk) 15:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC) reply
Additional comments from wtfiv I think I need to reiterate a point I made and then respond to Victoria's point, as I raised the "weigh beauty and existential suffering" issue in the first place.
Additional comments (Victoria) This should have been a procedural FAR, the article delisted, and probably stubbed back to its pre-Col. Henry, 5 Dec. 2012 version, per the account's original ban discussion and per today's comment from the blocking admin ( Risker who says "I'd suggest taking the article back to bare bones of what can be sourced with confidence and then delisting it," ( diff). Instead there have been 300 or more edits, the referencing style has been overhauled and made robust, attempts have been made to match text to references, all of which is a tremendous amount of work that shouldn't be overlooked and cast aside. That said, the questions now are a.) are there still textual problems; and b.) is it FA quality? From a brief look I believe there are lingering textual problems, and despite the robust citation syntax the article fails Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
I've found the following issues from looking at "Publication and reception" and only portions of "Symbolism and themes" and "Influence".
In the second para about Adorno, the first sentence cites Adorno for an extended quote; the next sentence has a double citation to an abstract at "Philipine e-journals"? Why? If we have access to Adorno, then we should be paraphrasing him; otherwise suggest deleting. Only a single page of Adorno is viewable - the page with the quote - so it's impossible to contextualize what he's saying. My interpretation is he thinks the elegies are poorly written, bad poetry, not actually literally evil. But again, without the full text it's impossible to tell. Adorno is 1964, so the reception section spans immediately post-publication in 1923 and stops in 1964. Seems there should be more?
In all it took six edits to fix two sentences, [2].
Obviously the article has seen tremendous work and improvements but judging from those few sections there are still sourcing issues, i.e a search on Google scholar for Rilke "Duino Elegies", here gives a large number of results. Of the first three secondary sources on the first page of the search result, Gass, Bell, McDonald, Hollander, we quote one from a separate source and don't use any of the others. Probably a lit search is in order, rather than trying to fit existing text with search strings to pages viewable on the internet. In other words of the criteria, 1 is not satisfied, 2.c. is satisfied, not sure about 3 or 4. Bottom line, we should go ahead and delist. Victoria ( tk) 19:23, 6 August 2022 (UTC) replyThe Eligies raise a number of questions. What is their subject? Is it primarily the creative act – the life, death, being, transformation of art, of poetry itself? Does Rilke take Life for his subject? Or is it primarily the Life of Art? I believe that the Eligies must be seen as the experience of being human, which includes the experience of art ...Cohn, Stephen. "Introduction", in Duino Eligies, A Bilingual Edition, (1998) p.18,