Michael Jackson
This article has been nominated for FA status before, but failed. All opposing comments have been addressed. It has been a very long time since this article was last nominated. Since then, it has really improved dramatically. This article definately deserves FA status. - Street walker 06:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. There should be a References section with full citations of all the refernces given throughout the article (see Wikipedia:Inline Citation and WP:CITE). Also, years are overlinked in the lead (see date formatting). -- Fritz Saalfeld ( Talk) 11:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)- Comment.
Is this what you mean? I've only done the lead so far.
Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, pretty much. Although a numbered list with full citations would be better (see Kylie Minogue for a Featured Article on a similar topic that lists the references that way). -- Fritz Saalfeld ( Talk) 15:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment.
Is this what you mean? I've only done the lead so far.
Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support. In the case of this particular article, citing a book doesn't add too much. I think the article is complete and well written.
ChaTo 12:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. Agreed, but since a request/complaint has been made for inline citation and it has cost this article an opposing vote, I think the best thing to do is follow up on the request/complaint made. Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- As many reliable and professional books there are that cover Michael Jackson, citing a book would indeed add much. -- FuriousFreddy 18:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Conditionally support as more bibliography could be in the list (as further reading). May be some part of the physical appearance could be embodied in the article. Brandmeister 13:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support per ChaTo. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 17:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose, again. This article does not deserve featured status as it currently stands. Writing is not of featured article quality. Exceedingly excessive in-line citations (in general, things like when people were born and when albums were released don't need inline citations unless they are particularly disputed), which lead to dubious sources. In-line citations are not linked to references in a "Footnotes" or "Notes" section. The header is too large, and does not properly summarize the article it is supposed to introduce. There is a significant number of Michael Jackson biographies (including an autobiography), magazine articles, televsion interviews, and other materials that can be used as professional references to create a professional article on the entertainer. This article is not even decent on the basic levels being clearly formatted and clearly covering Jackson's life in a clear, professional tone. This is at least the third time this article has been nominated here in the last two months. Before it is relisted for a fourth, or fifth, or wherever we're at, the person who keeps nominating it neeeds to stop. We have an entire Manual of Style, pages explainging how to write and reference articles, and several templates to assist in that process. Just take a look at Phil Collins; while I'm not particularly fond of the writing and formatting, it is at least properly referenced. And reliable, properly formatted references are a basic requirment of a featured article. -- FuriousFreddy 18:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
CommentOppose: I just went through one section and found a handful of internal links that needed to be improved, either to avoid redirects or to lead to the most relevant article. I made the fixes in that section, but the rest of the article should be checked over. Other than that, this seems like a solid article. On another note, in regard to Brandmeister's suggestion, I think the information on his physical appearance is sufficient in this article, considering that there is a separate article entirely dedicated to that topic. I'll be happy to vote my support when the internal links are all fine-tuned. Kafziel 18:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)- I just went back in after a week, and the very first link I clicked on (a piped link under "controversial behaviour in Berlin") was a redirect. Changing my comment to oppose until all of the internal links are fixed. Kafziel 15:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Until those citations are fixed, the printable version will look disastrous. O bli ( Talk) 22:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment some of the prose is choppy. Example: "jackson caused a stir when he walked into a women's toilet" near the end. It has no place in the paragraph as written. I, too, find the incessant citations to be a hindrance to reading. Needs some work, although seems to be pretty well on the way to FA status. aa v ^ 00:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Object per FuriousFreddy; those external link refs need to be formatted properly. Thanks! Flcelloguy ( A note?) 16:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. The article has now been properly referenced, see
Michael Jackson#References.
Flcelloguy,
Obli, and
Fritz Saalfeld feel free to retract your opposing votes at anytime. I hope the article now lives up to your standards.
Street walker 08:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- The article still isn't properly referenced; the first reference links to the article's talk page (!), and none of the references are properly cited (see Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations; the footnotes should contain information on the authors, publishers, etc.) There are still a number of highly unneccesary citations for things like the birthdates of Jackson's children, and the release dates of his albums (a general reference will suffice to cover all of that, which is why it is better to seperate "footnotes" from "references." Direct citation should only be used for things such as direct quotes, exact figures, disputed facts, etc.) The article's lead is excessively long; nearly a third of the legnth of the article. Changing opposition to Strong Oppose until nominator and persons working on article stop constantly pushing the article for FA status in a half-done state, and, if they desire the article make it through, take the time out to properly revise, format, and balance the article so that it is FA worthy. I still feel that this revision from back in October, while still requiring referencing and summarization in places, is far superior prose-wise to the current revision (I didn't write that version, but I did do cleanup/formatting for it). Until the current version of the article meets or exceeds that version as far as the quality of the writing and the information covered (Jackson's music career and personal life should be covered seperately, but in the same article, for the sake of page flow), this article should not be featured. -- FuriousFreddy 01:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support Article ticks all the right boxes for an FA. Rdysn5 10:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- Conditionally Oppose Article still lacks that certain sheen it will need. Sourcing isn't excessive, but sourcing still isn't quite the ticket. Too many links to fan sites. Sourcing using fan sites isn't reliable for some things. Don't get me wrong, the article is almost unrecognisable from the last peer review, but it's not quite right.
- I also have concerns regarding the removal of information which is unfavorable to Jackson. I don't see that "Jackson walks into a woman's toilet" anymore (which probably belonged there in a more edited fashion), and I just replaced an entire section on his custody case which was removed, along with Messereau no longer representing him - a seeming whitewash (paragraph beginning "An appeals court ruled..." [1]).
- also, where is information about Jackson's constant fatigiung? Jackson is almost anorexic according to his BMI based on his weight on his arrest photo, why isn't this mentioned? Why are his constantly 'odd' patterns of behaviour whitewashed over? It needs fixing-- Manboobies 20:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Object The article is woefully unbalanced, therefore not comprehensive, favoring an account of his commercial releases and his private life based on media sources, while almost completely failing to cover his basic artistic skills and talents as, primarily, a singer and dancer, and also actor, and his involvement in music production and choreography. On this basis, the article needs considerable amount of additional material, sections such "Training, Style, Influences", comparisons or other measure of his abilities with professional peers, and so forth. This imbalance also creates a bias towards MJ's (sensationalized) media image rather than a rounded treatment of all the relevant aspects, and so is not neutral. In addition, specific problem areas include:
- The lead is not neutral and not particularly readable The lead gives equal emphasis to MJ's entertainment career and his controversial personal life. While this is perhaps warranted in the lead, freely mixing career and "media findings" without distinction is not IMO encylopedic. "King of Pop" and "Wakco Jacko" are not equivalent terms. His marriages and children are included up front presumably only because of his notorious association with "children". And so forth. Also, there are too many citations, which is entirely distracting: ideally, the lead should be citation free, summarizing material developed (and cited if necessary) in the main text.
- Business career is not covered A brief mention and a link to a three-paragraph article, Michael Jackson finances, do not adequately cover his business dealings. The Beatles catalog, his lavish spending, his sponsorship deals, are all of an MJ proportion equivalent to his "kiddy" stuff, yet they are given little mention.
- Periods of success, particularly Thriller area, not accurately presented This is a writing issue. I don't find the different stages of his career are well-explained. The stats are there, but there is no summary of the incredible wave of popularity around Thriller, the impact of the moonwalk, the cross-demographic appeal. The article skims over these areas, and relatively lavishes attention on his trials and publicized personal life.
- MJ as dancer not covered His abilities as a dancer, which have been widely noted in many media, are not explained.
- MJ behavioral theories are not mentioned There has been much published speculation about MJ's "behaviors". Considering the amount of coverage given his personal trials and tribulations, a summary of the analyses and speculation about his behavior deserves some mention.
- MJ is probably one of the most covered entertainers ever. There is endless source material. The general and specific points mentioned here can certainly be found, they are simply not here. MJ is one of those "baseline" articles for determining overall article quality, it is a big topic that requires a lot of work, and unfortunately I don't find that yet reflected here. I don't get a sense of MJ professionally or personally, only a lot of stats, and media bits assembled on a timeline... --
Tsavage 01:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose Does anybody want to give this sucker more publicity than he already has? 82.42.225.31 00:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Badly formatted citations, and some of the sources are questionable. That every single source is online bothers me too. Suggests (rightly or wrongly) a Google copy and paste job. What about books, journals and (pre web) press coverage? -- kingboyk 00:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Michael Jackson
This article has been nominated for FA status before, but failed. All opposing comments have been addressed. It has been a very long time since this article was last nominated. Since then, it has really improved dramatically. This article definately deserves FA status. - Street walker 06:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. There should be a References section with full citations of all the refernces given throughout the article (see Wikipedia:Inline Citation and WP:CITE). Also, years are overlinked in the lead (see date formatting). -- Fritz Saalfeld ( Talk) 11:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)- Comment.
Is this what you mean? I've only done the lead so far.
Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, pretty much. Although a numbered list with full citations would be better (see Kylie Minogue for a Featured Article on a similar topic that lists the references that way). -- Fritz Saalfeld ( Talk) 15:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment.
Is this what you mean? I've only done the lead so far.
Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support. In the case of this particular article, citing a book doesn't add too much. I think the article is complete and well written.
ChaTo 12:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. Agreed, but since a request/complaint has been made for inline citation and it has cost this article an opposing vote, I think the best thing to do is follow up on the request/complaint made. Street walker 12:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- As many reliable and professional books there are that cover Michael Jackson, citing a book would indeed add much. -- FuriousFreddy 18:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Conditionally support as more bibliography could be in the list (as further reading). May be some part of the physical appearance could be embodied in the article. Brandmeister 13:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Support per ChaTo. -- S iva1979 Talk to me 17:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose, again. This article does not deserve featured status as it currently stands. Writing is not of featured article quality. Exceedingly excessive in-line citations (in general, things like when people were born and when albums were released don't need inline citations unless they are particularly disputed), which lead to dubious sources. In-line citations are not linked to references in a "Footnotes" or "Notes" section. The header is too large, and does not properly summarize the article it is supposed to introduce. There is a significant number of Michael Jackson biographies (including an autobiography), magazine articles, televsion interviews, and other materials that can be used as professional references to create a professional article on the entertainer. This article is not even decent on the basic levels being clearly formatted and clearly covering Jackson's life in a clear, professional tone. This is at least the third time this article has been nominated here in the last two months. Before it is relisted for a fourth, or fifth, or wherever we're at, the person who keeps nominating it neeeds to stop. We have an entire Manual of Style, pages explainging how to write and reference articles, and several templates to assist in that process. Just take a look at Phil Collins; while I'm not particularly fond of the writing and formatting, it is at least properly referenced. And reliable, properly formatted references are a basic requirment of a featured article. -- FuriousFreddy 18:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
CommentOppose: I just went through one section and found a handful of internal links that needed to be improved, either to avoid redirects or to lead to the most relevant article. I made the fixes in that section, but the rest of the article should be checked over. Other than that, this seems like a solid article. On another note, in regard to Brandmeister's suggestion, I think the information on his physical appearance is sufficient in this article, considering that there is a separate article entirely dedicated to that topic. I'll be happy to vote my support when the internal links are all fine-tuned. Kafziel 18:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)- I just went back in after a week, and the very first link I clicked on (a piped link under "controversial behaviour in Berlin") was a redirect. Changing my comment to oppose until all of the internal links are fixed. Kafziel 15:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Until those citations are fixed, the printable version will look disastrous. O bli ( Talk) 22:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment some of the prose is choppy. Example: "jackson caused a stir when he walked into a women's toilet" near the end. It has no place in the paragraph as written. I, too, find the incessant citations to be a hindrance to reading. Needs some work, although seems to be pretty well on the way to FA status. aa v ^ 00:18, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Object per FuriousFreddy; those external link refs need to be formatted properly. Thanks! Flcelloguy ( A note?) 16:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. The article has now been properly referenced, see
Michael Jackson#References.
Flcelloguy,
Obli, and
Fritz Saalfeld feel free to retract your opposing votes at anytime. I hope the article now lives up to your standards.
Street walker 08:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- The article still isn't properly referenced; the first reference links to the article's talk page (!), and none of the references are properly cited (see Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations; the footnotes should contain information on the authors, publishers, etc.) There are still a number of highly unneccesary citations for things like the birthdates of Jackson's children, and the release dates of his albums (a general reference will suffice to cover all of that, which is why it is better to seperate "footnotes" from "references." Direct citation should only be used for things such as direct quotes, exact figures, disputed facts, etc.) The article's lead is excessively long; nearly a third of the legnth of the article. Changing opposition to Strong Oppose until nominator and persons working on article stop constantly pushing the article for FA status in a half-done state, and, if they desire the article make it through, take the time out to properly revise, format, and balance the article so that it is FA worthy. I still feel that this revision from back in October, while still requiring referencing and summarization in places, is far superior prose-wise to the current revision (I didn't write that version, but I did do cleanup/formatting for it). Until the current version of the article meets or exceeds that version as far as the quality of the writing and the information covered (Jackson's music career and personal life should be covered seperately, but in the same article, for the sake of page flow), this article should not be featured. -- FuriousFreddy 01:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support Article ticks all the right boxes for an FA. Rdysn5 10:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- Conditionally Oppose Article still lacks that certain sheen it will need. Sourcing isn't excessive, but sourcing still isn't quite the ticket. Too many links to fan sites. Sourcing using fan sites isn't reliable for some things. Don't get me wrong, the article is almost unrecognisable from the last peer review, but it's not quite right.
- I also have concerns regarding the removal of information which is unfavorable to Jackson. I don't see that "Jackson walks into a woman's toilet" anymore (which probably belonged there in a more edited fashion), and I just replaced an entire section on his custody case which was removed, along with Messereau no longer representing him - a seeming whitewash (paragraph beginning "An appeals court ruled..." [1]).
- also, where is information about Jackson's constant fatigiung? Jackson is almost anorexic according to his BMI based on his weight on his arrest photo, why isn't this mentioned? Why are his constantly 'odd' patterns of behaviour whitewashed over? It needs fixing-- Manboobies 20:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Object The article is woefully unbalanced, therefore not comprehensive, favoring an account of his commercial releases and his private life based on media sources, while almost completely failing to cover his basic artistic skills and talents as, primarily, a singer and dancer, and also actor, and his involvement in music production and choreography. On this basis, the article needs considerable amount of additional material, sections such "Training, Style, Influences", comparisons or other measure of his abilities with professional peers, and so forth. This imbalance also creates a bias towards MJ's (sensationalized) media image rather than a rounded treatment of all the relevant aspects, and so is not neutral. In addition, specific problem areas include:
- The lead is not neutral and not particularly readable The lead gives equal emphasis to MJ's entertainment career and his controversial personal life. While this is perhaps warranted in the lead, freely mixing career and "media findings" without distinction is not IMO encylopedic. "King of Pop" and "Wakco Jacko" are not equivalent terms. His marriages and children are included up front presumably only because of his notorious association with "children". And so forth. Also, there are too many citations, which is entirely distracting: ideally, the lead should be citation free, summarizing material developed (and cited if necessary) in the main text.
- Business career is not covered A brief mention and a link to a three-paragraph article, Michael Jackson finances, do not adequately cover his business dealings. The Beatles catalog, his lavish spending, his sponsorship deals, are all of an MJ proportion equivalent to his "kiddy" stuff, yet they are given little mention.
- Periods of success, particularly Thriller area, not accurately presented This is a writing issue. I don't find the different stages of his career are well-explained. The stats are there, but there is no summary of the incredible wave of popularity around Thriller, the impact of the moonwalk, the cross-demographic appeal. The article skims over these areas, and relatively lavishes attention on his trials and publicized personal life.
- MJ as dancer not covered His abilities as a dancer, which have been widely noted in many media, are not explained.
- MJ behavioral theories are not mentioned There has been much published speculation about MJ's "behaviors". Considering the amount of coverage given his personal trials and tribulations, a summary of the analyses and speculation about his behavior deserves some mention.
- MJ is probably one of the most covered entertainers ever. There is endless source material. The general and specific points mentioned here can certainly be found, they are simply not here. MJ is one of those "baseline" articles for determining overall article quality, it is a big topic that requires a lot of work, and unfortunately I don't find that yet reflected here. I don't get a sense of MJ professionally or personally, only a lot of stats, and media bits assembled on a timeline... --
Tsavage 01:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose Does anybody want to give this sucker more publicity than he already has? 82.42.225.31 00:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Badly formatted citations, and some of the sources are questionable. That every single source is online bothers me too. Suggests (rightly or wrongly) a Google copy and paste job. What about books, journals and (pre web) press coverage? -- kingboyk 00:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)