- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was archived by Ealdgyth via FACBot ( talk) 6 May 2020 [1].
Hyborian War
- Nominator(s): Airborne84 ( talk) 03:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
This article is about the play-by-mail (PBM) game which occurs in the Hyborian Age with Conan the Barbarian created by Robert E. Howard. The game began in 1985 in a period of rapid growth in the PBM industry, and is one of the few games that has survived to the modern day, maintaining a loyal fan base with multiple fan sites. The game started strongly, earning a #1 spot as the Best Play By Mail Game of 1987 in Paper Mayhem magazine, but suffered from poor reviews and customer service feedback in subsequent years. In the 21st century, the game has done well, earning positive reviews and a 2008 Origins Award for Best Play By Mail Game.
Hyborian War was promoted to GA about five weeks ago after a copyedit and review by Gog the Mild, who apparently is somewhat of an expert in this field. Airborne84 ( talk) 03:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm a bit too biased to offer anything of value in evaluating this article as an FA, since I started the article and followed its progress as Airborne84 built it from a little stub, and I acted as a coach/cheerleader to see it to GA and hopefully beyond, but I will say that his work on this and other articles has impressed me. It is the first GA for a play-by-mail game, so would obviously be the first FA for a PBM topic as well; I don't know if there are any other Conan FA's, but there may be an opportunity there as well. I want to wish you best of luck! BOZ ( talk) 04:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Boz! Airborne84 ( talk) 16:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
Nb. I intend to claim points for this review in the WikiCup.
Reserving a place. I have a lot on at the moment, so it may be a while before I can do the review. Note for the coordinators, while not familiar with Hyborian War I was, back in the day, very familiar with the genre of activity - PBM fantasy games. I have even had reviews published in the old semi-commercial UK PBM magazine. So I should be OK to check that it covers what an article on this sort of topic should. And, I suppose, the source review and spot check. Airborne84, is this your first FAC? Gog the Mild ( talk) 18:15, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild, I got Sentence spacing through as an FA in 2010, so no, not the first one. However, it's been a while, and that was the only one, so I'm not claiming to be the FAC expert. But I'm ready for whatever heavy lifting may be needed here. Airborne84 ( talk) 02:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
As you know, I like this article. However, having reskimmed it, I am not sure that it is ready for FAC. Nothing similar seems to have been offered here before, so there are no precedents. What I don't see is any background on what PBM/PBEM is/was; how it worked; how it developed. Or any background on heroic fantasy/the world of Conan. Or anything on player interaction: players "communicate among themselves"; how and why? This is an encyclopedia article, but it takes a lot of knowledge as a given. "Orders are submitted by mail or email" - how about an example of a turnsheet, an explanation of what at least some of it means, an image of the subsequent completed ordersheet, again with a partial explanation of the tactics and a fuller explanation of the strategy they are part of. For FAC I would expect a fairly deep level of knowledge to be imparted.
Before I put the time into a full review, I would be interested in other reviewers' and the nominator's, opinions as to what the scope of the article should be. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I appreciate it. A few thoughts below.
- I decided against trying to describe the history and basics of play-by-mail gaming in the article. Instead, I overhauled the article on play-by-mail games from this earlier version to provide that. My thoughts were to link to a useful page rather than summarize PBM basics in an in-article section. It may be that there should be more relevant links to that article—I'll check. Of course, if others feel the PBM topic should be summarized in this article, I'll defer to the consensus.
- Similarly, I can summarize heroic fantasy and Conan in the article versus only linking to them. I'm open to that if other editors think that is necessary to satisfy criterion 1b. It's difficult to say from WP:RS's what the answer should be: most articles on this topic just describe the game. However, some have dived into the fantasy/Conan area. I think it's reasonable to summarize in a section and it's also reasonable to mention it peripherally and link to the main articles as done. I defer to the consensus.
- I can certainly address player interaction in more detail. For one thing, a link to this section will do for a start (weak as it is). But I'll add a few sentences describing how players can and do interact.
- I was actually thinking about order sheet images last night. I think that and an example turn sheet would be a great addition. I'm on it. Airborne84 ( talk) 23:08, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- (
watching) @
Airborne84: per
the criteria, 1b the article must demonstratably
place...the subject in context
. This means, effectively, a short paragraph about the broader topic, and a link is insufficient. Having said that of course, it's a balancing act between that and providing so much background that it lends it undue weight. A short para, maybe 100 words (that's a guess only), which you can more or less lift (with attribution from the base article (and yes, although you wrote most of that yourself, it's still good for the optics to provide attribution on principle)). I don't think lack of context should be a big enough lack for you to withdraw, as it shouldn't be difficult to resolve; having said that, Gog may have further fire and brimstone to send you...by mail, presumably :) SERIAL # 14:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
-
M'learned friend is, of course, quite correct. I was holding fire, and brimstone, until I saw what you came up with. But if it were me, and it ain't, I would definitely go the cut, paste and trim route.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 15:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. Am working now in my sandbox. The text sections for PBM context and Heroic Fantasy/Conan setting won't take long—24 to 48 hours. I have order sheets and turns sheets on hand for image examples, but need to investigate the licensing. Fair use will leave the text unreadable at low resolution. But I'm not sure I can use a Creative Commons license. Working. Thanks again!
Airborne84 (
talk) 17:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- At a push you could contact Reality Sim, explain what you are doing and ask them for a licence for a turn and order sheet. I don't see a downside for them and it's free publicity.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed—was already thinking that was the best option. Thanks! Airborne84 ( talk) 20:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- At a push you could contact Reality Sim, explain what you are doing and ask them for a licence for a turn and order sheet. I don't see a downside for them and it's free publicity.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. Am working now in my sandbox. The text sections for PBM context and Heroic Fantasy/Conan setting won't take long—24 to 48 hours. I have order sheets and turns sheets on hand for image examples, but need to investigate the licensing. Fair use will leave the text unreadable at low resolution. But I'm not sure I can use a Creative Commons license. Working. Thanks again!
Airborne84 (
talk) 17:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
-
M'learned friend is, of course, quite correct. I was holding fire, and brimstone, until I saw what you came up with. But if it were me, and it ain't, I would definitely go the cut, paste and trim route.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 15:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- (
watching) @
Airborne84: per
the criteria, 1b the article must demonstratably
FA coordinators, Ian Rose, Laser brain, and Ealdgyth, after some discussion, I'm withdrawing this nomination. I'm going to complete the recommended modifications above. However, some of the image licensing and final revisions will take some time, so I'll renominate when complete and it just needs a bit of minor polish. Thanks for your time and thank you to the reviewers here for their useful recommendations. Airborne84 ( talk) 19:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{ featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. I'm archiving this. But when you have something ready for putting int eh article, ping me and I'll do a look over of it and see if I have any sources that might have some bearing on it also ... I have a few books on the history of the gaming industry, specifically the more esoteric parts (not the consoles...) -- Ealdgyth ( talk) 19:22, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Ealdgyth, will do. Thanks! Airborne84 ( talk) 19:35, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was archived by Ealdgyth via FACBot ( talk) 6 May 2020 [1].
Hyborian War
- Nominator(s): Airborne84 ( talk) 03:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
This article is about the play-by-mail (PBM) game which occurs in the Hyborian Age with Conan the Barbarian created by Robert E. Howard. The game began in 1985 in a period of rapid growth in the PBM industry, and is one of the few games that has survived to the modern day, maintaining a loyal fan base with multiple fan sites. The game started strongly, earning a #1 spot as the Best Play By Mail Game of 1987 in Paper Mayhem magazine, but suffered from poor reviews and customer service feedback in subsequent years. In the 21st century, the game has done well, earning positive reviews and a 2008 Origins Award for Best Play By Mail Game.
Hyborian War was promoted to GA about five weeks ago after a copyedit and review by Gog the Mild, who apparently is somewhat of an expert in this field. Airborne84 ( talk) 03:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm a bit too biased to offer anything of value in evaluating this article as an FA, since I started the article and followed its progress as Airborne84 built it from a little stub, and I acted as a coach/cheerleader to see it to GA and hopefully beyond, but I will say that his work on this and other articles has impressed me. It is the first GA for a play-by-mail game, so would obviously be the first FA for a PBM topic as well; I don't know if there are any other Conan FA's, but there may be an opportunity there as well. I want to wish you best of luck! BOZ ( talk) 04:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Boz! Airborne84 ( talk) 16:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
Nb. I intend to claim points for this review in the WikiCup.
Reserving a place. I have a lot on at the moment, so it may be a while before I can do the review. Note for the coordinators, while not familiar with Hyborian War I was, back in the day, very familiar with the genre of activity - PBM fantasy games. I have even had reviews published in the old semi-commercial UK PBM magazine. So I should be OK to check that it covers what an article on this sort of topic should. And, I suppose, the source review and spot check. Airborne84, is this your first FAC? Gog the Mild ( talk) 18:15, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild, I got Sentence spacing through as an FA in 2010, so no, not the first one. However, it's been a while, and that was the only one, so I'm not claiming to be the FAC expert. But I'm ready for whatever heavy lifting may be needed here. Airborne84 ( talk) 02:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
As you know, I like this article. However, having reskimmed it, I am not sure that it is ready for FAC. Nothing similar seems to have been offered here before, so there are no precedents. What I don't see is any background on what PBM/PBEM is/was; how it worked; how it developed. Or any background on heroic fantasy/the world of Conan. Or anything on player interaction: players "communicate among themselves"; how and why? This is an encyclopedia article, but it takes a lot of knowledge as a given. "Orders are submitted by mail or email" - how about an example of a turnsheet, an explanation of what at least some of it means, an image of the subsequent completed ordersheet, again with a partial explanation of the tactics and a fuller explanation of the strategy they are part of. For FAC I would expect a fairly deep level of knowledge to be imparted.
Before I put the time into a full review, I would be interested in other reviewers' and the nominator's, opinions as to what the scope of the article should be. Gog the Mild ( talk) 20:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I appreciate it. A few thoughts below.
- I decided against trying to describe the history and basics of play-by-mail gaming in the article. Instead, I overhauled the article on play-by-mail games from this earlier version to provide that. My thoughts were to link to a useful page rather than summarize PBM basics in an in-article section. It may be that there should be more relevant links to that article—I'll check. Of course, if others feel the PBM topic should be summarized in this article, I'll defer to the consensus.
- Similarly, I can summarize heroic fantasy and Conan in the article versus only linking to them. I'm open to that if other editors think that is necessary to satisfy criterion 1b. It's difficult to say from WP:RS's what the answer should be: most articles on this topic just describe the game. However, some have dived into the fantasy/Conan area. I think it's reasonable to summarize in a section and it's also reasonable to mention it peripherally and link to the main articles as done. I defer to the consensus.
- I can certainly address player interaction in more detail. For one thing, a link to this section will do for a start (weak as it is). But I'll add a few sentences describing how players can and do interact.
- I was actually thinking about order sheet images last night. I think that and an example turn sheet would be a great addition. I'm on it. Airborne84 ( talk) 23:08, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- (
watching) @
Airborne84: per
the criteria, 1b the article must demonstratably
place...the subject in context
. This means, effectively, a short paragraph about the broader topic, and a link is insufficient. Having said that of course, it's a balancing act between that and providing so much background that it lends it undue weight. A short para, maybe 100 words (that's a guess only), which you can more or less lift (with attribution from the base article (and yes, although you wrote most of that yourself, it's still good for the optics to provide attribution on principle)). I don't think lack of context should be a big enough lack for you to withdraw, as it shouldn't be difficult to resolve; having said that, Gog may have further fire and brimstone to send you...by mail, presumably :) SERIAL # 14:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
-
M'learned friend is, of course, quite correct. I was holding fire, and brimstone, until I saw what you came up with. But if it were me, and it ain't, I would definitely go the cut, paste and trim route.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 15:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. Am working now in my sandbox. The text sections for PBM context and Heroic Fantasy/Conan setting won't take long—24 to 48 hours. I have order sheets and turns sheets on hand for image examples, but need to investigate the licensing. Fair use will leave the text unreadable at low resolution. But I'm not sure I can use a Creative Commons license. Working. Thanks again!
Airborne84 (
talk) 17:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- At a push you could contact Reality Sim, explain what you are doing and ask them for a licence for a turn and order sheet. I don't see a downside for them and it's free publicity.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed—was already thinking that was the best option. Thanks! Airborne84 ( talk) 20:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- At a push you could contact Reality Sim, explain what you are doing and ask them for a licence for a turn and order sheet. I don't see a downside for them and it's free publicity.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. Am working now in my sandbox. The text sections for PBM context and Heroic Fantasy/Conan setting won't take long—24 to 48 hours. I have order sheets and turns sheets on hand for image examples, but need to investigate the licensing. Fair use will leave the text unreadable at low resolution. But I'm not sure I can use a Creative Commons license. Working. Thanks again!
Airborne84 (
talk) 17:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
-
M'learned friend is, of course, quite correct. I was holding fire, and brimstone, until I saw what you came up with. But if it were me, and it ain't, I would definitely go the cut, paste and trim route.
Gog the Mild (
talk) 15:04, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- (
watching) @
Airborne84: per
the criteria, 1b the article must demonstratably
FA coordinators, Ian Rose, Laser brain, and Ealdgyth, after some discussion, I'm withdrawing this nomination. I'm going to complete the recommended modifications above. However, some of the image licensing and final revisions will take some time, so I'll renominate when complete and it just needs a bit of minor polish. Thanks for your time and thank you to the reviewers here for their useful recommendations. Airborne84 ( talk) 19:01, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{ featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. I'm archiving this. But when you have something ready for putting int eh article, ping me and I'll do a look over of it and see if I have any sources that might have some bearing on it also ... I have a few books on the history of the gaming industry, specifically the more esoteric parts (not the consoles...) -- Ealdgyth ( talk) 19:22, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Ealdgyth, will do. Thanks! Airborne84 ( talk) 19:35, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.