- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot ( talk) 3 February 2023 [1].
Eileen Collins
I have recently completed a series on the first six NASA women astronauts. All though were mission specialists - scientists, doctors and engineers who worked with the Space Shuttle payloads. But who was the first woman to actually fly the Space Shuttle and go on to command a mission? Well, we have an article on her too. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Kusma
Happy to review another astronaut soon. — Kusma ( talk) 22:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Referring to the missions just as STS-63 etc. is jargon that should better be explained. (at least use "the STS-63 Space Shuttle mission" at first use); I would also prefer to see "mission" or so added to the section titles, but I won't insist on that
- "Her ancestors came to America in the mid-1800s, settling in Pennsylvania and Elmira, New York." It is a bit odd that you omit her proudly proclaimed Irish heritage.
- God Is My Co-Pilot what is that book? Fate Is the Hunter could also benefit from an explanation, but at least we have a link there
- God is My Co-Pilot is a 1943 novel by Robert Lee Scott Jr. about his exploits in World War II with the Flying Tigers and the United States Army Air Forces in China and Burma. We don't have an article on it, but it is red-linked elsewhere on Wikipedia. We do have an article on the 1945 film though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- "a trainer is not considered an operational aircraft." according to whom? And is this still true today?
- The sections about the missions could have {{ main}} introducing them; this is especially necessary for STS-93 and STS-114 where the link isn't in the first sentence.
- Her husband was trained as a pilot, but worked for the Air Force Academy as golf instructor, but then became a commercial pilot? This sounds odd. Or was the golf instructing just a side gig?
- He was assigned to the USAF Academy's Athletics department as the golf coach. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is fine if he was no longer serving as a pilot.
- What?! That's not right. Where did that idea come from? He retained his pilot rating and military flight pay, which is worth up to $35,000 a year. He flew the required number of hours to retain it. One annoyance was that after he got married he couldn't fly with Eileen any more, due to a USAF regulation prohibiting spouses flying together (so that their children won't be orphans if they crash). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is fine if he was no longer serving as a pilot.
- He was assigned to the USAF Academy's Athletics department as the golf coach. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Collins's selection as one of the twenty-three astronaut candidates (ASCANs) in NASA Astronaut Group 13." garbled
- "This was another routine assignment that astronauts did that help familiarise them with the Space Shuttle's systems and procedure" garbled
- "Had this occurred, the engines would have had to be replaced" what is "this"?
Probably more later! — Kusma ( talk) 09:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overall the article seems to be in excellent shape. Happy to support on prose (but I share the concerns about potential over-reliance on her autobiography). — Kusma ( talk) 10:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Steelkamp
- Why is "bachelor of Arts" have a lowercase "b" but "Master of Science" have an uppercase "M"?
- Why does the article use DMY dates? I always thought that American articles were meant to have MDY dates.
- MOS:DATETIES: articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I will have more comments later. Steelkamp ( talk) 05:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Space Shuttle orbiter should be linked the first time that orbiter is mentioned.
- "and she attended the El-Ne-Ho summer camp." Is this really that important? There isn't much information about this camp on Google.
- "But most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft..." Could this changed so the sentence doesn't begin with "but". How about: "Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft though, ..."
- "But women were still not permitted to fly combat aircraft, ..." Same as above.
- "Pilot Instructor Training (PIT)". Is this acronym necessary, considering it is not used later in the article?
- "and only woman flight instructor at Vance..." Should this be "and the only woman flight instructor at Vance..."?
- "... Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, and then to back to Clark, to Diego Garcia again, ..." This is written confusingly.
- What is a golf instructor? Does it have to do with the sport of gold? I'm confused because it later says Youngs was a commercial pilot.
- Someone who teaches you how to play golf. Linked. The article seems clear enough to me: Youngs was also posted to the Air Force Academy, as a golf instructor. They were married on 1 August 1987. Youngs eventually left the USAF to fly as a commercial pilot for Delta Air Lines, thereby giving himself the flexibility to follow Collins as her career progressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Steelkamp ( talk) 16:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- United States Air Force Academy can be linked in the body.
- "which also included Carolyn Huntoon, the Director of Life Sciences; Joseph Atkinson, the Chief of Equal Opportunity Programs". Does this conform with
MOS:JOBTITLES?
- I think so.
When writing "minister of foreign affairs" or "minister of national defence", the portfolio should be lower cased as it is not a proper noun on its own (i.e. write minister of foreign affairs or, as a proper noun, Minister of Foreign Affairs; do not write minister of Foreign Affairs).
What could be clearer? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think so.
- There's an inconsistency in the capitalisation of "Orbiter".
- "Some, like one of the other leaking thrusters, could be shut off, but one, R1U, was required for rendezvous." What does "some" mean in this context. This sentence is confusing.
- "The Mir EO-23 mission commander". Should Mir be italicised here?
Steelkamp ( talk) 11:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- "was made by the First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton". This seems to also go against
MOS:JOBTITLES. It should either be "was made by the first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton" or "was made by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton".
- The second form is called a false title. De-capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- Should The Tonight Show with Jay Leno be linked?
- "Although Discovery was not damaged, video of the launch revealed that the problem with debris striking the Space Shuttle had not been resolved.[96] Ten pieces of foam had broken off the external tank during lift off, including a 92-by-279-by-17-centimeter (36.3 in × 110 in × 6.7 in) piece that was the largest ever recorded." This is referring to the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster right? I think you should make that clearer for those who might not know about the circumstances of that disaster.
- "The three spacewalks and the transfer of supplies was carried out without problems." Change "was" to "were".
That's it from me. Steelkamp ( talk) 08:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Comments by Ian
Recusing coord duties to review...
- Copyedited as usual, hopefully I didn't misunderstand anything. The lede read very well. Outstanding points re. prose/content:
- No reason she shouldn't be proud of her Irish heritage but not sure we need in the article unless it motivated her activities in some way. Can we drop and just say her ancestors came from Ireland in the previous sentence?
- Don't think sibling names are necessary unless notable, can we just mention sexes and places in the brood relative to Eileen?
- a logical assignment for a mathematics major -- maybe the source says this but it still reads like editorialising; maybe it can reworded, but I don't think it'd hurt to just drop it.
- She knew one other member of the group, who called themselves the "Hairballs", well -- I went "uh?" at the "well" on first reading; I'm guessing Collins knew others in the group but not well, is that right?
- Referencing-wise, in due course I'll walk through and let you know if I have any concerns with citations to the co-written autobiography, as I did in a previous astronaut FAC (I note that the book under Further reading appears to be quite short and aimed at children)... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk) 22:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a book for young readers. I have used such books in the past, but only when no better source was available.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I have to admit I was initially sceptical of the value of Osprey's books on fighter aces because they were so slim and so profusely illustrated that they seemed little more than kids' stuff, and then I looked at the caliber of authors and their no-nonsense writing and found them to be a very worthwhile source of information. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 17:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a book for young readers. I have used such books in the past, but only when no better source was available.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Source review
- Not strictly a source review query but are three citations really necessary for Her parents were James Edward Collins and his wife Rose Marie née O'Hara.?
- Sources look reliable, formatting check later.
- Generally I'm not concerned with using the (co-written) autobiography for uncontroversial info and/or stuff that purely relates to the subject and her thoughts/goals/actions/reactions. More general statements about the Air Force or NASA programs, and especially about distinctions/firsts, I believe should at least be augmented by other sources, e.g.
- In 1976, women had different fitness standards from the men, but Collins was granted permission to do the morning run with the men, who had to run 12 furlongs (2.4 km) in less than 12 minutes. The training included classes on the history of the USAF and the theory of flight, a ride in a Fairchild C-123 Provider and a flight in a Cessna T-37 Tweet with an instructor.
- the Syracuse AFROTC commander, Colonel Vernon Hagen, informed her that the USAF was now accepting up to ten women from AFROTC programs for pilot training, and offered to put her name forward for this.
- She was one of four women in the class; there were ten men. The purpose of the FSP was to screen out unsuitable pilots before sending them to the more expensive Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) program. Collins was almost eliminated on medical grounds due to her left eye and a suspected heart murmur, but was cleared to fly. Training flights were conducted from nearby Hondo Municipal Airport in Cessna T-41 Mescalero aircraft.
- The top-ranking members of the class went on to fly single-pilot aircraft, while the others became co-pilots. Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft, which woman could not yet fly,
- and the only woman flight instructor at Vance between September 1979 and December 1982
- Pretty well the whole of the fourth para of Air Force career barring the first two sentences (i.e. Now a captain, Collins set her sights on becoming an astronaut. To achieve this goal, she aimed to graduate from the USAF Test Pilot School.)
- During the American invasion of Grenada in October 1983, her aircraft flew troops of the 82nd Airborne Division from Pope Air Force Base in North Carolina to Grenada, and took thirty-six medical students back. Although women were not supposed to fly in combat, the USAF gave her combat pay for the mission, and awarded her the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.
- Through the Air Force Institute of Technology, she earned a Master of Science in operations research from Stanford University in 1986
- Pretty well everything in the second-last para of Air Force career, up to and including but this time a waiver was granted.
- She was also the most senior member of the class, as she was the only one with the rank of major, which made her the class leader.
- I'm going to stop there, pls consider Astronaut career in the same light and look at further referencing for passages that rely solely on the autobiography but are not strictly to do with Collins' own actions/reactions -- happy to have another look after that. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 18:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@ WP:FAC coordinators: I don't think this is going anywhere. Please close. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Withdrawn. The usual two-week hiatus will apply.
- Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{ featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot ( talk) 3 February 2023 [1].
Eileen Collins
I have recently completed a series on the first six NASA women astronauts. All though were mission specialists - scientists, doctors and engineers who worked with the Space Shuttle payloads. But who was the first woman to actually fly the Space Shuttle and go on to command a mission? Well, we have an article on her too. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:58, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Kusma
Happy to review another astronaut soon. — Kusma ( talk) 22:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Referring to the missions just as STS-63 etc. is jargon that should better be explained. (at least use "the STS-63 Space Shuttle mission" at first use); I would also prefer to see "mission" or so added to the section titles, but I won't insist on that
- "Her ancestors came to America in the mid-1800s, settling in Pennsylvania and Elmira, New York." It is a bit odd that you omit her proudly proclaimed Irish heritage.
- God Is My Co-Pilot what is that book? Fate Is the Hunter could also benefit from an explanation, but at least we have a link there
- God is My Co-Pilot is a 1943 novel by Robert Lee Scott Jr. about his exploits in World War II with the Flying Tigers and the United States Army Air Forces in China and Burma. We don't have an article on it, but it is red-linked elsewhere on Wikipedia. We do have an article on the 1945 film though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- "a trainer is not considered an operational aircraft." according to whom? And is this still true today?
- The sections about the missions could have {{ main}} introducing them; this is especially necessary for STS-93 and STS-114 where the link isn't in the first sentence.
- Her husband was trained as a pilot, but worked for the Air Force Academy as golf instructor, but then became a commercial pilot? This sounds odd. Or was the golf instructing just a side gig?
- He was assigned to the USAF Academy's Athletics department as the golf coach. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is fine if he was no longer serving as a pilot.
- What?! That's not right. Where did that idea come from? He retained his pilot rating and military flight pay, which is worth up to $35,000 a year. He flew the required number of hours to retain it. One annoyance was that after he got married he couldn't fly with Eileen any more, due to a USAF regulation prohibiting spouses flying together (so that their children won't be orphans if they crash). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it is fine if he was no longer serving as a pilot.
- He was assigned to the USAF Academy's Athletics department as the golf coach. It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 19:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Collins's selection as one of the twenty-three astronaut candidates (ASCANs) in NASA Astronaut Group 13." garbled
- "This was another routine assignment that astronauts did that help familiarise them with the Space Shuttle's systems and procedure" garbled
- "Had this occurred, the engines would have had to be replaced" what is "this"?
Probably more later! — Kusma ( talk) 09:48, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Overall the article seems to be in excellent shape. Happy to support on prose (but I share the concerns about potential over-reliance on her autobiography). — Kusma ( talk) 10:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Steelkamp
- Why is "bachelor of Arts" have a lowercase "b" but "Master of Science" have an uppercase "M"?
- Why does the article use DMY dates? I always thought that American articles were meant to have MDY dates.
- MOS:DATETIES: articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I will have more comments later. Steelkamp ( talk) 05:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Space Shuttle orbiter should be linked the first time that orbiter is mentioned.
- "and she attended the El-Ne-Ho summer camp." Is this really that important? There isn't much information about this camp on Google.
- "But most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft..." Could this changed so the sentence doesn't begin with "but". How about: "Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft though, ..."
- "But women were still not permitted to fly combat aircraft, ..." Same as above.
- "Pilot Instructor Training (PIT)". Is this acronym necessary, considering it is not used later in the article?
- "and only woman flight instructor at Vance..." Should this be "and the only woman flight instructor at Vance..."?
- "... Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, and then to back to Clark, to Diego Garcia again, ..." This is written confusingly.
- What is a golf instructor? Does it have to do with the sport of gold? I'm confused because it later says Youngs was a commercial pilot.
- Someone who teaches you how to play golf. Linked. The article seems clear enough to me: Youngs was also posted to the Air Force Academy, as a golf instructor. They were married on 1 August 1987. Youngs eventually left the USAF to fly as a commercial pilot for Delta Air Lines, thereby giving himself the flexibility to follow Collins as her career progressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:47, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Steelkamp ( talk) 16:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- United States Air Force Academy can be linked in the body.
- "which also included Carolyn Huntoon, the Director of Life Sciences; Joseph Atkinson, the Chief of Equal Opportunity Programs". Does this conform with
MOS:JOBTITLES?
- I think so.
When writing "minister of foreign affairs" or "minister of national defence", the portfolio should be lower cased as it is not a proper noun on its own (i.e. write minister of foreign affairs or, as a proper noun, Minister of Foreign Affairs; do not write minister of Foreign Affairs).
What could be clearer? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think so.
- There's an inconsistency in the capitalisation of "Orbiter".
- "Some, like one of the other leaking thrusters, could be shut off, but one, R1U, was required for rendezvous." What does "some" mean in this context. This sentence is confusing.
- "The Mir EO-23 mission commander". Should Mir be italicised here?
Steelkamp ( talk) 11:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- "was made by the First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton". This seems to also go against
MOS:JOBTITLES. It should either be "was made by the first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton" or "was made by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton".
- The second form is called a false title. De-capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- Should The Tonight Show with Jay Leno be linked?
- "Although Discovery was not damaged, video of the launch revealed that the problem with debris striking the Space Shuttle had not been resolved.[96] Ten pieces of foam had broken off the external tank during lift off, including a 92-by-279-by-17-centimeter (36.3 in × 110 in × 6.7 in) piece that was the largest ever recorded." This is referring to the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster right? I think you should make that clearer for those who might not know about the circumstances of that disaster.
- "The three spacewalks and the transfer of supplies was carried out without problems." Change "was" to "were".
That's it from me. Steelkamp ( talk) 08:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Comments by Ian
Recusing coord duties to review...
- Copyedited as usual, hopefully I didn't misunderstand anything. The lede read very well. Outstanding points re. prose/content:
- No reason she shouldn't be proud of her Irish heritage but not sure we need in the article unless it motivated her activities in some way. Can we drop and just say her ancestors came from Ireland in the previous sentence?
- Don't think sibling names are necessary unless notable, can we just mention sexes and places in the brood relative to Eileen?
- a logical assignment for a mathematics major -- maybe the source says this but it still reads like editorialising; maybe it can reworded, but I don't think it'd hurt to just drop it.
- She knew one other member of the group, who called themselves the "Hairballs", well -- I went "uh?" at the "well" on first reading; I'm guessing Collins knew others in the group but not well, is that right?
- Referencing-wise, in due course I'll walk through and let you know if I have any concerns with citations to the co-written autobiography, as I did in a previous astronaut FAC (I note that the book under Further reading appears to be quite short and aimed at children)... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk) 22:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a book for young readers. I have used such books in the past, but only when no better source was available.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I have to admit I was initially sceptical of the value of Osprey's books on fighter aces because they were so slim and so profusely illustrated that they seemed little more than kids' stuff, and then I looked at the caliber of authors and their no-nonsense writing and found them to be a very worthwhile source of information. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 17:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a book for young readers. I have used such books in the past, but only when no better source was available.
Hawkeye7
(discuss) 00:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Source review
- Not strictly a source review query but are three citations really necessary for Her parents were James Edward Collins and his wife Rose Marie née O'Hara.?
- Sources look reliable, formatting check later.
- Generally I'm not concerned with using the (co-written) autobiography for uncontroversial info and/or stuff that purely relates to the subject and her thoughts/goals/actions/reactions. More general statements about the Air Force or NASA programs, and especially about distinctions/firsts, I believe should at least be augmented by other sources, e.g.
- In 1976, women had different fitness standards from the men, but Collins was granted permission to do the morning run with the men, who had to run 12 furlongs (2.4 km) in less than 12 minutes. The training included classes on the history of the USAF and the theory of flight, a ride in a Fairchild C-123 Provider and a flight in a Cessna T-37 Tweet with an instructor.
- the Syracuse AFROTC commander, Colonel Vernon Hagen, informed her that the USAF was now accepting up to ten women from AFROTC programs for pilot training, and offered to put her name forward for this.
- She was one of four women in the class; there were ten men. The purpose of the FSP was to screen out unsuitable pilots before sending them to the more expensive Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) program. Collins was almost eliminated on medical grounds due to her left eye and a suspected heart murmur, but was cleared to fly. Training flights were conducted from nearby Hondo Municipal Airport in Cessna T-41 Mescalero aircraft.
- The top-ranking members of the class went on to fly single-pilot aircraft, while the others became co-pilots. Most single-pilot aircraft were combat aircraft, which woman could not yet fly,
- and the only woman flight instructor at Vance between September 1979 and December 1982
- Pretty well the whole of the fourth para of Air Force career barring the first two sentences (i.e. Now a captain, Collins set her sights on becoming an astronaut. To achieve this goal, she aimed to graduate from the USAF Test Pilot School.)
- During the American invasion of Grenada in October 1983, her aircraft flew troops of the 82nd Airborne Division from Pope Air Force Base in North Carolina to Grenada, and took thirty-six medical students back. Although women were not supposed to fly in combat, the USAF gave her combat pay for the mission, and awarded her the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal.
- Through the Air Force Institute of Technology, she earned a Master of Science in operations research from Stanford University in 1986
- Pretty well everything in the second-last para of Air Force career, up to and including but this time a waiver was granted.
- She was also the most senior member of the class, as she was the only one with the rank of major, which made her the class leader.
- I'm going to stop there, pls consider Astronaut career in the same light and look at further referencing for passages that rely solely on the autobiography but are not strictly to do with Collins' own actions/reactions -- happy to have another look after that. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 18:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@ WP:FAC coordinators: I don't think this is going anywhere. Please close. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- Withdrawn. The usual two-week hiatus will apply.
- Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{ featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.