I've been very bust working on this article about one of the busiest animals. Have at it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 16:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)reply
SG comments
EXTREME
MOS:SANDWICHing of images is everywhere. This can probably be solved by eliminating a number of images which aren't needed for understanding the topic. I am surprised to see this from an experienced nominator, and will try to read the article once this basic is addressed.
There isn't any sandwiching for me. It really depends on the breadth of your screen when you're on desktop mode User:Dunkleosteus77 |
push to talk 04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
MOS:CAPTIONS, please review punctuation on image captions, eg, A beaver lodge at the edge of a stream. ... does not require a full stop.
Check your ps and pps, eg Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 32–33. vs. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 85. ... this is everywhere. p. 56–57. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 58. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 57–58.
What is your page range scheme (citation consistency)? For example, Animal Behaviour. 63 (6): 1073–78. but ... BioScience. 38 (11): 753–762. Decide which digits you repeat.
Oppose a rushed nomination (as can be seen in the "bust" introduction). No, not fixed all. I suggested that giardiasis needed to worked in to the article; instead it was completely removed. Now we have no mention of a problem endemic to beavers. Similarly,
beaver attack could be worked in to the article rather than listed as a See also. FAs are supposed to be comprehensive, and giardia is a beaver issue. The image (and description) in infrastructure illustrate the need for alt text throughout. As a sighted person, I have a problem understanding the illustration of a lodge, and can't imagine what a person using a screen reader is supposed to make of that image and the associated confusing text in the article. The feeding and nesting chambers are the same? What is holding up the top part? The beavers and logs are similarly colored and difficult to distinguish. The text talks about all three structures in a way that I have to go back and re-read several times to understand that three different structures have been mentioned, yet never answers my questions about the image. There are copyedit issues throughout: sample "The ponds they have created certain have flooded other trees and vegetation." Which fish is which and who did what? "However, areas with introduced beaver were associated with increased populations of native puye fish (Galaxias maculatus), whereas the exotic species had negative effects on native stream fishes in the Cape Horn Biosphere Reserve, Chile." How did we get to New Zealand in the same paragraph?
Overuse of
however should be reviewed. The lead is choppy and an inadequate summary of the article; one thought does not flow to the next and it does not compel the reader to want to know more. Please don't expect FAC reviewers to do all the work of bringing an article through to the state of preparedness that should be there before the nomination; we should be able to focus instead on issues of substance at FAC, and repeat nominators should know this.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
These are being worked on. I just added in giardiasis before you put in your oppose.
LittleJerry (
talk) 15:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Two days earlier, you said "fixed all". My oppose stands: see
FAC talk.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 13:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Image review - in addition to Sandy's point above
Suggest adding alt text
Suggest reviewing captions for grammar
File:Die_Gartenlaube_(1858)_b_068_white_background.jpg: what is the author's date of death?
Who cares. The image is from 1858.
LittleJerry (
talk) 13:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
It includes a copyright tag based on author date of death, so this information should be provided.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 14:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Ernst Keil died in 1878 but I can't edit that in.
LittleJerry (
talk) 15:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
File:Beaver_lodge.jpg: the given source credits this image to what appears to be a copyrighted book.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 22:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"heir four incisors are chisel-shaped with continuous growth. The outer enamel of the incisors is very thick and colored orange due to the presence of iron. The roots of the lower incisors extend throughout the length of the lower jaw. Beavers have two premolars and six molars for each jaw adding up to 20 teeth in total." - Based on the math, it must be four incisors on each jaw. Clarify that, as it's not super obvious from the phrasing
"Beaver populations currently range from Spain and France, though central and eastern Europe and into Scandinavia and western Russia and their population totaled at least 639,000 by 2006." - Got a more up-to-date number?
"Starting in 2009, beavers have also been reintroduced to parts of Great Britain" - Surely it's been enough time to tell if it's been a successful reintroduction or not
"which are around 2 °C (36 °F) cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)" - Not the conversion you wanted. You wanted what two individual degrees equals, but you got what exactly 2 degrees is
You're misusing the convert template. A decrease of 2°C does not equal a decrease of 36°F. The convert template converts an absolute temperature, not a relative decrease.
Hog FarmBacon 14:47, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Within the lodge, beavers communicate with burgs and whines. They produce gargles and bubbles when entering and exiting" - Not clear what exactly some of these sound names are suppose to represent
Got to leave now, but I am not done yet. Will have some more points later.
Hog FarmBacon 23:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge. Beaver pelts were mainly used to make hats, which were considered a luxury item in 17th century England and were commonly stolen" - Weird tense switch
Note to coords: nonexpert here, so I'm not going to be able to detect potential flaws in technical matters. Mostly just a layman's review here.
Hog FarmBacon 02:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers tend to use the bank lodges during the summer, which are around two degrees cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)." - Got two issues with these sentences. First, two degrees celsius is about 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, so you have to state whether the two degrees is in Celsius or Fahrenheit. And then to provide the conversion, you're gonna have to do it by hand, as the template's gonna try to make it as two absolute degrees celsius. So you'll just have to do the conversion manually and stick in the parenthesis. Second, it's very unclear what 0.5 °C is suppose to mean here. It reads like it's suppose to mean that 0.5 °C is the temperature the water stays at, which seems implausible. Climactic conditions around the beaver's range means it isn't going to stick at 32.9 degrees Fahrenheit all winter, which suggests to me this is another poorly formatted range.
Hog FarmBacon 02:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge" - Still not sold here. The weird use of "will" here is an issue for me, as the rest of this paragraph is used to talk about historical events..
"The lineages of the two beaver species are estimated to have split around 7.5 mya" - Makes it sound pretty clear. However, the source says Similar to the divergence of the family Castoridae, the divergence time of the two extant beaver species has not yet been estimated with much precision.. Looks like there's some ambiguity that needs clarified. Also, this probably needs more than one study's results: cladistics and phylogenies can be very different between different scientists.
Fixed. This is the best and most recent cladogram I can find on fossil beavers.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"There is one case of a dog that died during surgery after being bitten by a beaver in 2010 at University Lake in Alaska, where a number of unprovoked attacks against pets were recorded" -
Beaver attack lists another dog killed, and is sourced. "There is one case ..." is thus a bit misleading.
Are beavers still hunted anywhere? I don't see this being mentioned in the article anywhere
Nearly every animal is hunted.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
C. Californicus is mentioned in the infobox, but nowhere else.
Its not significent. There's barely any information on it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
It at least needs a citation ...
Hog FarmBacon 03:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Well, there's more, and that was only a casual glance. I'll be giving this another close go-over, as I see more issues each time I look at this.
Hog FarmBacon 02:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Could you please wait. I listed it for a copyedit and have asked some people.to do it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Okay. Tell me when you're ready.
Hog FarmBacon 03:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose and suggest withdrawal These things should have been done before nomination. This one wasn't ready for FAC. Agree with Dunkleosteus, there's a good deal of missing information.
Hog FarmBacon 14:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Dunkleosteus77
When I left you at GA, I was kinda expecting you to expand the article a bit more, namely (as I said) on human–beaver interactions, extinct beaver species, diseases and parasites, the hunting of European beavers, the decline of beaver hunting, beaver hunting today (like, when's beaver season? Quota counts?) I know in the past you've said you don't want important articles to be dumping grounds for all kinds of random information, but for especially iconic animals such as the beaver, you should expect the article to have some girth, which isn't necessarily a crime User:Dunkleosteus77 |
push to talk 04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Closing note: This
candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see
WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the
bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
I've been very bust working on this article about one of the busiest animals. Have at it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 16:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)reply
SG comments
EXTREME
MOS:SANDWICHing of images is everywhere. This can probably be solved by eliminating a number of images which aren't needed for understanding the topic. I am surprised to see this from an experienced nominator, and will try to read the article once this basic is addressed.
There isn't any sandwiching for me. It really depends on the breadth of your screen when you're on desktop mode User:Dunkleosteus77 |
push to talk 04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
MOS:CAPTIONS, please review punctuation on image captions, eg, A beaver lodge at the edge of a stream. ... does not require a full stop.
Check your ps and pps, eg Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 32–33. vs. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 85. ... this is everywhere. p. 56–57. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, pp. 58. Müller-Schwarze & Lixing Sun 2003, p. 57–58.
What is your page range scheme (citation consistency)? For example, Animal Behaviour. 63 (6): 1073–78. but ... BioScience. 38 (11): 753–762. Decide which digits you repeat.
Oppose a rushed nomination (as can be seen in the "bust" introduction). No, not fixed all. I suggested that giardiasis needed to worked in to the article; instead it was completely removed. Now we have no mention of a problem endemic to beavers. Similarly,
beaver attack could be worked in to the article rather than listed as a See also. FAs are supposed to be comprehensive, and giardia is a beaver issue. The image (and description) in infrastructure illustrate the need for alt text throughout. As a sighted person, I have a problem understanding the illustration of a lodge, and can't imagine what a person using a screen reader is supposed to make of that image and the associated confusing text in the article. The feeding and nesting chambers are the same? What is holding up the top part? The beavers and logs are similarly colored and difficult to distinguish. The text talks about all three structures in a way that I have to go back and re-read several times to understand that three different structures have been mentioned, yet never answers my questions about the image. There are copyedit issues throughout: sample "The ponds they have created certain have flooded other trees and vegetation." Which fish is which and who did what? "However, areas with introduced beaver were associated with increased populations of native puye fish (Galaxias maculatus), whereas the exotic species had negative effects on native stream fishes in the Cape Horn Biosphere Reserve, Chile." How did we get to New Zealand in the same paragraph?
Overuse of
however should be reviewed. The lead is choppy and an inadequate summary of the article; one thought does not flow to the next and it does not compel the reader to want to know more. Please don't expect FAC reviewers to do all the work of bringing an article through to the state of preparedness that should be there before the nomination; we should be able to focus instead on issues of substance at FAC, and repeat nominators should know this.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 14:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
These are being worked on. I just added in giardiasis before you put in your oppose.
LittleJerry (
talk) 15:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Two days earlier, you said "fixed all". My oppose stands: see
FAC talk.
SandyGeorgia (
Talk) 13:51, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Image review - in addition to Sandy's point above
Suggest adding alt text
Suggest reviewing captions for grammar
File:Die_Gartenlaube_(1858)_b_068_white_background.jpg: what is the author's date of death?
Who cares. The image is from 1858.
LittleJerry (
talk) 13:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
It includes a copyright tag based on author date of death, so this information should be provided.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 14:09, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Ernst Keil died in 1878 but I can't edit that in.
LittleJerry (
talk) 15:50, 18 October 2020 (UTC)reply
File:Beaver_lodge.jpg: the given source credits this image to what appears to be a copyrighted book.
Nikkimaria (
talk) 22:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"heir four incisors are chisel-shaped with continuous growth. The outer enamel of the incisors is very thick and colored orange due to the presence of iron. The roots of the lower incisors extend throughout the length of the lower jaw. Beavers have two premolars and six molars for each jaw adding up to 20 teeth in total." - Based on the math, it must be four incisors on each jaw. Clarify that, as it's not super obvious from the phrasing
"Beaver populations currently range from Spain and France, though central and eastern Europe and into Scandinavia and western Russia and their population totaled at least 639,000 by 2006." - Got a more up-to-date number?
"Starting in 2009, beavers have also been reintroduced to parts of Great Britain" - Surely it's been enough time to tell if it's been a successful reintroduction or not
"which are around 2 °C (36 °F) cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)" - Not the conversion you wanted. You wanted what two individual degrees equals, but you got what exactly 2 degrees is
You're misusing the convert template. A decrease of 2°C does not equal a decrease of 36°F. The convert template converts an absolute temperature, not a relative decrease.
Hog FarmBacon 14:47, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Within the lodge, beavers communicate with burgs and whines. They produce gargles and bubbles when entering and exiting" - Not clear what exactly some of these sound names are suppose to represent
Got to leave now, but I am not done yet. Will have some more points later.
Hog FarmBacon 23:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge. Beaver pelts were mainly used to make hats, which were considered a luxury item in 17th century England and were commonly stolen" - Weird tense switch
Note to coords: nonexpert here, so I'm not going to be able to detect potential flaws in technical matters. Mostly just a layman's review here.
Hog FarmBacon 02:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers tend to use the bank lodges during the summer, which are around two degrees cooler than the surrounding air. Open-water lodges are used during the winter and their temperature is similar to that of the surrounding water, at around 0.5 °C (32.9 °F)." - Got two issues with these sentences. First, two degrees celsius is about 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, so you have to state whether the two degrees is in Celsius or Fahrenheit. And then to provide the conversion, you're gonna have to do it by hand, as the template's gonna try to make it as two absolute degrees celsius. So you'll just have to do the conversion manually and stick in the parenthesis. Second, it's very unclear what 0.5 °C is suppose to mean here. It reads like it's suppose to mean that 0.5 °C is the temperature the water stays at, which seems implausible. Climactic conditions around the beaver's range means it isn't going to stick at 32.9 degrees Fahrenheit all winter, which suggests to me this is another poorly formatted range.
Hog FarmBacon 02:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"Beavers were also hunted for their fur. They were particularly easy to find for trappers as they stayed in one place. Trappers will kill entire families in a lodge" - Still not sold here. The weird use of "will" here is an issue for me, as the rest of this paragraph is used to talk about historical events..
"The lineages of the two beaver species are estimated to have split around 7.5 mya" - Makes it sound pretty clear. However, the source says Similar to the divergence of the family Castoridae, the divergence time of the two extant beaver species has not yet been estimated with much precision.. Looks like there's some ambiguity that needs clarified. Also, this probably needs more than one study's results: cladistics and phylogenies can be very different between different scientists.
Fixed. This is the best and most recent cladogram I can find on fossil beavers.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
"There is one case of a dog that died during surgery after being bitten by a beaver in 2010 at University Lake in Alaska, where a number of unprovoked attacks against pets were recorded" -
Beaver attack lists another dog killed, and is sourced. "There is one case ..." is thus a bit misleading.
Are beavers still hunted anywhere? I don't see this being mentioned in the article anywhere
Nearly every animal is hunted.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
C. Californicus is mentioned in the infobox, but nowhere else.
Its not significent. There's barely any information on it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
It at least needs a citation ...
Hog FarmBacon 03:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Well, there's more, and that was only a casual glance. I'll be giving this another close go-over, as I see more issues each time I look at this.
Hog FarmBacon 02:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Could you please wait. I listed it for a copyedit and have asked some people.to do it.
LittleJerry (
talk) 03:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Okay. Tell me when you're ready.
Hog FarmBacon 03:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose and suggest withdrawal These things should have been done before nomination. This one wasn't ready for FAC. Agree with Dunkleosteus, there's a good deal of missing information.
Hog FarmBacon 14:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Dunkleosteus77
When I left you at GA, I was kinda expecting you to expand the article a bit more, namely (as I said) on human–beaver interactions, extinct beaver species, diseases and parasites, the hunting of European beavers, the decline of beaver hunting, beaver hunting today (like, when's beaver season? Quota counts?) I know in the past you've said you don't want important articles to be dumping grounds for all kinds of random information, but for especially iconic animals such as the beaver, you should expect the article to have some girth, which isn't necessarily a crime User:Dunkleosteus77 |
push to talk 04:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Closing note: This
candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see
WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the
bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.