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Nominator's rationale: There is a category
Category:2012 phenomenon that can incorporate all of these biographies. The problem with this category's name is that it elevates them to "theorists", an ambiguous if not misleading monicker, when most are only pseudoscientists and/or spiritualists.
jps (
talk) 22:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
RenameCategory:2012 phenomenon authors. The nom appears to be calling for this authors category to be merged with their subject. That does not seem appropriate. I accept that it is mostly a load of rubbish, but unfortunately people will believe these things.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:33, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Not sure "authors" is good either -
David Gerard (
talk) 12:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. Their works may be more accurately described as "incoherent hypotheses", but "theorist" is the word used for this sort of thing, e.g. "conspiracy theorist". There are more shadings of meaning for the word "theory" than just "scientific theory", and this is an example -
David Gerard (
talk) 12:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Via Francigena
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. This is basically a follow up from
this discussion which was closed as no consensus since there was a mix of trails, some of which probably should be deleted and others kept. So I'm sorting through that list to see which ones merit a separate deletion discussion. Again the question here is, are the places along the trail defined by the trail? This name appears to apply to both an ancient road as well as a pilgrimage route. Based on the contents of the category, it would appear that this is intended for the pilgrimage route. I don't see the places listed as being defined by being on this pilgrimage route. The main article has a list of the original way points from one direction of the first pilgrimage along this route which does a better job of explaining the various points and the finer details then a category could.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 20:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. This trail is not a permanent
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the articles currently in the category (apart from the eponymous article which is already in the parent categories).
DexDor (
talk) 04:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is not even a recognised trail: it is almost certainly largely a series of roads. In view of the distance, I am not convinced that there was only a single road from London (or Canterbury) to Rome. I doubt there are many features (e.g. abbeys or shrines) that were specifically related to this pilgrimage, rather than just happening to be on the route.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:1960 establishments in the Federation of Malaya
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Merge per nom. We seem to have decided to just use the term Malaya.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 19:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nominator.
...William 20:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom —dainomite 01:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge -- Obvioulsy the same thing.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:President of Ethiopia
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Nominator's rationale: We have categories for both "President of Ethiopia" (which is also an article, describing the office) and "Presidents of Ethiopia". The former category is more populous, but I believe the latter has the correct name. In any case we don't need both categories.
Gyrofrog (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge we use the plural form in such category names.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge -- The plural is clearly needed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Richford, Vermont
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. Small community with just 4 entries.
...William 17:22, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom —dainomite 01:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters
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"Television presenter" is an occupation category. Tagging these categories under the Eurovision contest is also a contravention of
WP:PERF. "Justice" has nothing to do with Wikipedia categorization.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 00:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This is categorization of performers by performance.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Eurovision Song Contest. Although if a television presenter is an occupation, then the people who presented Eurovision Song Contest, which is a television show, are therefore doing their "occupation" as a presenter of a major annual TV event.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. A TV presenter may present (or appear in) dozens/hundreds of shows. Their occupation may be a notable/defining characteristic, but which particular shows they've been in isn't.
DexDor (
talk) 04:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete & Replace - Changed my mind after some considerable thought. A reasonable compromise IMO, would be to replace any articles which are currently categorise with
Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters, with
Category:Television presenters and
Category:Eurovision Song Contest. The former shows they were TV presenters of a show, and the latter also provide the fact they have connections with Junior Eurovision (if that makes sense). Then delete the nominated category.
WesleyMᴥuse 05:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment We do not want to put these people in the category for the show. In general, being a presenter or actor in a show does not create a deep enough link to categorize by. We do not put
Terri Hatcher or
Dean Cain in
Category:Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, yet they were not only the stars of the show, they each wrote at least one episode. Actually, we put no people in that category, not even
Deborah Joy LeVine who was the moving force behind creating the show is put in the category. Although that last might partly be because no one has yet found good sources to explain Levine's relationship to the show.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - Clear overcategorization per
WP:OC#PERF. Categories are not for categorizing performers by their performances. —dainomite 01:34, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is clearly a p[erformance by performer category, which we do not allow.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American Horror Story (season 1) episodes
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Category:Chemical compounds found in Actinobacteria
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Delete For all the reasons given in the previous discussions.
JamesBWatson (
talk) 10:23, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per precedent. These are as bad as performance categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete this is not a defining trait to the articles involved.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 15:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Honorary Fellows of the Australian Institute of Building
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Delete We generally avoid categories for people who are only honorary something.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This award is not a defining characteristic of an individual. Classic overcategorization per
WP:OC#AWARD. —dainomite 01:17, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- WE do n ot generally allow awards categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:42, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Venues of the 2011 European Youth Summer Olympic Festival
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Delete - non-defining characteristic that's already listified on an article. —dainomite 01:18, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest presenters
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Keep - per Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters. Presenters of major music events should have its own category.--
BabbaQ (
talk) 12:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - as a performer by performance venue. The other presenters category should also be deleted.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 15:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
"Television presenter" is an occupation category. Tagging these categories under the Eurovision contest is also a contravention of
WP:PERF. "Justice" has nothing to do with Wikipedia categorization.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 00:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
You may have misinterpreted my meaning of "justice", it wasn't justice as in law, it was justice as in justification, justifying. Tagging under
Category:Eurovision Song Contest wouldn't contravene
WP:PERF either, the articles currently tagged under the above nominated deletion are personalities who have presented a major event (Eurovision Song Contest) watched by over 120 million worldwide, so to place them under the category for which they have had dealings with would not be going against WP:PERF. Or at least that is my opinion anyway, something to which I am entitled to.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Placing presenters in the general category would contravene PERF. The rule is to not categorize individual performers in conjunction with that in which they performed. Just as for example
Ricardo Montalban is not under PERF properly categorized in
Category:Star Trek actors, he is not properly categorized under
Category:Star Trek either. Putting the presenters directly in the contest category would violate PERF in exactly the way categorizing Montalban directly in the show category would.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 09:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Using Caterogy:Junior Eurovision Song Contest would not be in violation of PERF though. The category itself is not solely to categorise contest articles only. The category name was given as an all-in-one category name (only because project members couldn't reach a compromise on other proposals at the time). Articles such as artists that performed in a contest, their songs, host cities, articles such as
United Kingdom in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest, and many more have all been placed under a universal category title
Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest. This is to highlight the subject in question is in relation to Junior Eurovision Song Contest in general and not in the way of highlighting performer by performance. Both Eurovision and Junior Eurovision are more than just a show, they are an entity and a brand within their own right, as outlined by the
European Broadcasting Union. This is when
Ignore all rules would apply, as placing articles under a generalised category fulfils the guidelines set out at
Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization (and I'm not trying to imply the nominated category should stay). Besides,
WP:PERF doesn't mention anything about violations, WP:PERF is in regards to server performances, not BLP performances.
WesleyMᴥuse 15:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This is a performer by performance category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest. Although if a television presenter is an occupation, then the people who presented Junior Eurovision Song Contest, which is a television show, are therefore doing their "occupation" as a presenter of a major annual TV event.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Question to Armburst - Is there a reason to nominate a merge for
Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters, yet a nomination of delete for this Junior version? I'm just curious that's all, as both categories are similar (one being for the adult contest, the other a junior contest).
WesleyMᴥuse 17:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment Yes, the "Junior" category has far less members, and therefore I checked every member of it. The "senior" has many more members, and didn't wanted to check all of them.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 21:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment The reason the senior one has more members is because the senior version has been around since
1956, the junior version only started in
2003. But both versions are the creation of the
European Broadcasting Union.
WesleyMᴥuse 22:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
But since he wants to functionally remove both categories, that detail does not matter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:AGF John, I asked Armburst a question, to which I got a reply, and as the editor pointed something out I thought it would only be polite to explain why they found more in one category and hardly any in the other.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Living paths!
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Nominator's rationale: With the current title (and contents and lack of parent categories) it's very unclear what the category is for - possibly it's intended to be a WikiProject category.
DexDor (
talk) 04:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
This is a long term project (
Living Paths Project), which will collate all the articles created as a result of the project into one category; this way we will be able to keep monitor the achievments. Thanks.
Llywelyn2000 (
talk) 05:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. If the project wants to create a category for its own materials, then it should be named
Category:WikiProject Living Paths! per convention of
Category:WikiProjects. However, any such category should not include article-space pages, so it would need ti be created from scratch. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BrownHairedGirl (
talk •
contribs) --14:19, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - It does not follow WikiProject category naming conventions. —dainomite 01:15, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- Are these the people giving us all the categories for places along paths (which we are currently busy deleting)? If so, they are getting beyond themselves. It could be called
Category:WikiProject Living Paths (preferably without "!"), but I would have thought that the project page was all they needed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: There is a category
Category:2012 phenomenon that can incorporate all of these biographies. The problem with this category's name is that it elevates them to "theorists", an ambiguous if not misleading monicker, when most are only pseudoscientists and/or spiritualists.
jps (
talk) 22:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
RenameCategory:2012 phenomenon authors. The nom appears to be calling for this authors category to be merged with their subject. That does not seem appropriate. I accept that it is mostly a load of rubbish, but unfortunately people will believe these things.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:33, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Not sure "authors" is good either -
David Gerard (
talk) 12:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. Their works may be more accurately described as "incoherent hypotheses", but "theorist" is the word used for this sort of thing, e.g. "conspiracy theorist". There are more shadings of meaning for the word "theory" than just "scientific theory", and this is an example -
David Gerard (
talk) 12:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Via Francigena
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. This is basically a follow up from
this discussion which was closed as no consensus since there was a mix of trails, some of which probably should be deleted and others kept. So I'm sorting through that list to see which ones merit a separate deletion discussion. Again the question here is, are the places along the trail defined by the trail? This name appears to apply to both an ancient road as well as a pilgrimage route. Based on the contents of the category, it would appear that this is intended for the pilgrimage route. I don't see the places listed as being defined by being on this pilgrimage route. The main article has a list of the original way points from one direction of the first pilgrimage along this route which does a better job of explaining the various points and the finer details then a category could.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 20:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. This trail is not a permanent
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the articles currently in the category (apart from the eponymous article which is already in the parent categories).
DexDor (
talk) 04:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is not even a recognised trail: it is almost certainly largely a series of roads. In view of the distance, I am not convinced that there was only a single road from London (or Canterbury) to Rome. I doubt there are many features (e.g. abbeys or shrines) that were specifically related to this pilgrimage, rather than just happening to be on the route.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:1960 establishments in the Federation of Malaya
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Merge per nom. We seem to have decided to just use the term Malaya.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 19:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nominator.
...William 20:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom —dainomite 01:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge -- Obvioulsy the same thing.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:President of Ethiopia
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Nominator's rationale: We have categories for both "President of Ethiopia" (which is also an article, describing the office) and "Presidents of Ethiopia". The former category is more populous, but I believe the latter has the correct name. In any case we don't need both categories.
Gyrofrog (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge we use the plural form in such category names.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge -- The plural is clearly needed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Richford, Vermont
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. Small community with just 4 entries.
...William 17:22, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom —dainomite 01:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters
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"Television presenter" is an occupation category. Tagging these categories under the Eurovision contest is also a contravention of
WP:PERF. "Justice" has nothing to do with Wikipedia categorization.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 00:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This is categorization of performers by performance.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Eurovision Song Contest. Although if a television presenter is an occupation, then the people who presented Eurovision Song Contest, which is a television show, are therefore doing their "occupation" as a presenter of a major annual TV event.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. A TV presenter may present (or appear in) dozens/hundreds of shows. Their occupation may be a notable/defining characteristic, but which particular shows they've been in isn't.
DexDor (
talk) 04:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete & Replace - Changed my mind after some considerable thought. A reasonable compromise IMO, would be to replace any articles which are currently categorise with
Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters, with
Category:Television presenters and
Category:Eurovision Song Contest. The former shows they were TV presenters of a show, and the latter also provide the fact they have connections with Junior Eurovision (if that makes sense). Then delete the nominated category.
WesleyMᴥuse 05:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment We do not want to put these people in the category for the show. In general, being a presenter or actor in a show does not create a deep enough link to categorize by. We do not put
Terri Hatcher or
Dean Cain in
Category:Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, yet they were not only the stars of the show, they each wrote at least one episode. Actually, we put no people in that category, not even
Deborah Joy LeVine who was the moving force behind creating the show is put in the category. Although that last might partly be because no one has yet found good sources to explain Levine's relationship to the show.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - Clear overcategorization per
WP:OC#PERF. Categories are not for categorizing performers by their performances. —dainomite 01:34, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is clearly a p[erformance by performer category, which we do not allow.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American Horror Story (season 1) episodes
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Category:Chemical compounds found in Actinobacteria
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Delete For all the reasons given in the previous discussions.
JamesBWatson (
talk) 10:23, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per precedent. These are as bad as performance categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete this is not a defining trait to the articles involved.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 15:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Honorary Fellows of the Australian Institute of Building
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Delete We generally avoid categories for people who are only honorary something.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This award is not a defining characteristic of an individual. Classic overcategorization per
WP:OC#AWARD. —dainomite 01:17, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- WE do n ot generally allow awards categories.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:42, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Venues of the 2011 European Youth Summer Olympic Festival
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Delete - non-defining characteristic that's already listified on an article. —dainomite 01:18, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest presenters
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Keep - per Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters. Presenters of major music events should have its own category.--
BabbaQ (
talk) 12:21, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - as a performer by performance venue. The other presenters category should also be deleted.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 15:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
"Television presenter" is an occupation category. Tagging these categories under the Eurovision contest is also a contravention of
WP:PERF. "Justice" has nothing to do with Wikipedia categorization.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 00:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
You may have misinterpreted my meaning of "justice", it wasn't justice as in law, it was justice as in justification, justifying. Tagging under
Category:Eurovision Song Contest wouldn't contravene
WP:PERF either, the articles currently tagged under the above nominated deletion are personalities who have presented a major event (Eurovision Song Contest) watched by over 120 million worldwide, so to place them under the category for which they have had dealings with would not be going against WP:PERF. Or at least that is my opinion anyway, something to which I am entitled to.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Placing presenters in the general category would contravene PERF. The rule is to not categorize individual performers in conjunction with that in which they performed. Just as for example
Ricardo Montalban is not under PERF properly categorized in
Category:Star Trek actors, he is not properly categorized under
Category:Star Trek either. Putting the presenters directly in the contest category would violate PERF in exactly the way categorizing Montalban directly in the show category would.
Jerry Pepsi (
talk) 09:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Using Caterogy:Junior Eurovision Song Contest would not be in violation of PERF though. The category itself is not solely to categorise contest articles only. The category name was given as an all-in-one category name (only because project members couldn't reach a compromise on other proposals at the time). Articles such as artists that performed in a contest, their songs, host cities, articles such as
United Kingdom in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest, and many more have all been placed under a universal category title
Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest. This is to highlight the subject in question is in relation to Junior Eurovision Song Contest in general and not in the way of highlighting performer by performance. Both Eurovision and Junior Eurovision are more than just a show, they are an entity and a brand within their own right, as outlined by the
European Broadcasting Union. This is when
Ignore all rules would apply, as placing articles under a generalised category fulfils the guidelines set out at
Wikipedia:FAQ/Categorization (and I'm not trying to imply the nominated category should stay). Besides,
WP:PERF doesn't mention anything about violations, WP:PERF is in regards to server performances, not BLP performances.
WesleyMᴥuse 15:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete This is a performer by performance category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Junior Eurovision Song Contest. Although if a television presenter is an occupation, then the people who presented Junior Eurovision Song Contest, which is a television show, are therefore doing their "occupation" as a presenter of a major annual TV event.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Question to Armburst - Is there a reason to nominate a merge for
Category:Eurovision Song Contest presenters, yet a nomination of delete for this Junior version? I'm just curious that's all, as both categories are similar (one being for the adult contest, the other a junior contest).
WesleyMᴥuse 17:07, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment Yes, the "Junior" category has far less members, and therefore I checked every member of it. The "senior" has many more members, and didn't wanted to check all of them.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 21:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment The reason the senior one has more members is because the senior version has been around since
1956, the junior version only started in
2003. But both versions are the creation of the
European Broadcasting Union.
WesleyMᴥuse 22:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)reply
But since he wants to functionally remove both categories, that detail does not matter.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:AGF John, I asked Armburst a question, to which I got a reply, and as the editor pointed something out I thought it would only be polite to explain why they found more in one category and hardly any in the other.
WesleyMᴥuse 02:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Living paths!
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: With the current title (and contents and lack of parent categories) it's very unclear what the category is for - possibly it's intended to be a WikiProject category.
DexDor (
talk) 04:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)reply
This is a long term project (
Living Paths Project), which will collate all the articles created as a result of the project into one category; this way we will be able to keep monitor the achievments. Thanks.
Llywelyn2000 (
talk) 05:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete. If the project wants to create a category for its own materials, then it should be named
Category:WikiProject Living Paths! per convention of
Category:WikiProjects. However, any such category should not include article-space pages, so it would need ti be created from scratch. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BrownHairedGirl (
talk •
contribs) --14:19, 10 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - It does not follow WikiProject category naming conventions. —dainomite 01:15, 11 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete -- Are these the people giving us all the categories for places along paths (which we are currently busy deleting)? If so, they are getting beyond themselves. It could be called
Category:WikiProject Living Paths (preferably without "!"), but I would have thought that the project page was all they needed.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 15:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.