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The result of the discussion was:listify and delete. I will ask the nominator to create the list. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This seems to be over-categorisation of 'performers by performance' (
WP:OC#PERF). Our general practice is to delete such categories, as they're non-defining: true, reading at a presidential inauguration is a rare honour, but it's still not really a defining characteristic of any of these people. This is the kind of content that's better expressed with a list than a category.
Robofish (
talk) 23:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete this is a performer by performance category, which we do not do.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - Over-categorization. However, this would probably make for a great article.
Blueboar (
talk) 04:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I would second the notion that this could make an article, and probably more than just a list.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Listify if neceessary then delete -- it is a performance by performer category. Lists do the job much better, because they can be placed in order.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:23, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hindi loandwords
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The result of the discussion was:delete all, and do not listify. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale This is an encyclopedia. Thus the articles are on things. The article
Cotton, which is in one of these categories, is on the thing called cotton, not on the word cotton. Thus we categoriez things by what they are, not what they are named. We do not categorize things by having a shared name, but that is exactly what we are doing here. This is a bad idea. It is also much better covered by lists. Categories should group things by having like traits, but this category has nothing to do with what the thing is, but what it is called. The categories garbanzo bean and chick pea are in should be exactly the same because they are the same thing, but having categories like this would lead the article to be categoriezed differently by what name we chose to give it.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 23:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
However the articles are not on words and phrases, they are on things.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and previous CFDs (
example). It's not necessary to listify in WP as the Wiktionary categories contain such a list.
DexDor (
talk) 07:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete categorization of titles, rather than articles, is not proper (see
WP:OCAT, and we have recent precedents on this.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 23:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Wow, I had forgotten about the Loanwords cat discussion (and I even was invovled in it), so I guess we have a precedent to delete.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep (at worst listify before deletion)-- These are all relatively unusual etymological sources. Greek, Latin, German, and French would be too common to make wothwhile categories. Some of the categories need purging of things like surnames. We might also make it a requirement that the article should include a discussion of the etymology.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Such a requirement would just encorage people to turn encyclopedia articles into dictionary articles. The articles are on the things, not the words.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 16:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete a complete mess. Some of these contain loanwords from that language in English, others contain loanwords in that language from other languages, others contain loanwords from that language in other languages. Clearly these names are extremely ambiguous, and useless, since they are being used in a multitude of ways. --
70.24.246.233 (
talk) 16:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment I have come up with the best description of why this category is a downright horrible idea. We have an article
Looting, which we then say is exactly the same as sacking, plundering, despoiling, despoliation, and pillaging. The article should still be in the same categories no matter which of those names we place it in. However if we moved it to being at
plundering, whicb is a redirect to this article, we could not put it in
Category:Hindi loanwords because plundering comes from German. However since plundering and looing are the same thing, they should be in the same categories.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Another example is
Cheetah. If for some reason we decided to rename all animal articles to their scientific names and thus renamed this article
Acinonyx jubatus, it should still be in the same categories. It would still fit in
Category:Mammals of Asia and even
Category:Animals described in 1776 but it would not longer fit in this category. That shows that we are here categorizing by other than what the thing is, and that is just plain a bad idea.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes. Articles should have appropriate categorization based on what the title means (i.e. the subject of the article), not the title itself. Most articles (even those with titles like
Yara-ma-yha-who) also have subject-based categories. Articles like
Doryanthes excelsa don't even have a title that's of Aboriginal origin. Having a pale imitation of
Wiktionary:Category:Australian Aboriginal languages just clutters up Wikipedia.
DexDor (
talk) 06:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete all Categorization by etymology is a bad idea.
Mangoe (
talk) 13:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Persistent organic pollutants
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The result of the discussion was:delete, after a selective upmerge per Fayenatic london's proposal. .The difficulty with this category is that persistence is not a binary characteristic (where compounds either persist or don't); it is a scale, in which compounds may have a half-life ranging from seconds to years. Without a threshold, a category of
persistent organic pollutants is meaningless (or at least
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE, but attempts to apply a threshold fall foul of
WP:OC#ARBITRARY. So the consensus is to retain the
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention, which does have clear inclusion criteria, and delete this one. Editors may wish to consider creating a list of other
persistent organic pollutants. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 18:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep: I see no problem with a
fuzzy category. As currently structured,
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention is a subcategory within this one; that seems appropriate to me. A logical analogy would be restricting the categorization of hazardous substances to only those substances covered under the European RoHS Directive; this overly restrictive approach would not make sense. Thanks,
DA Sonnenfeld (
talk) 22:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I did not mean my words to be taken as a vote to keep. –
FayenaticLondon 19:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The complaint is that the boundaries of the category are vague, but presumably the criterion is that the substances are not naturally degraded in the envirnoment. Surely that is a robust boundary.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes, there is a sufficiently robust boundary. Some chemicals are defined as
persistent organic pollutants by reputable sources and that is what should be in the category (or subcat). --
Alan Liefting (
talk -
contribs) 19:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Peterkingiron is wrong. Even Persistent Organic Pollutants under the Stockholm Convention are in fact naturally degraded in the environment, just slow. Thresholds in half-lives are two months for water and six months for soil and sediment.
What kind of strong defining characteristic is there for compounds that are not regulated under the Stockholm convention? None that is not
OR. --
Leyo 22:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete, with very selective upmerge. Despite three
!votes to "keep", I am not seeing any policy reason to do so, and in particular those opinions have not addressed the objection from the guideline
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE. Many of the compounds in the category are
persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic substances but if they do not meet a threshold definitin of POP then they should not be so categorised.
DA Sonnenfeld refers above to categorization of hazardous substances, but that gives no precedent at all, since
category:Hazardous materials is restricted to general articles about handling of haz.mat. Similarly, the head category
Category:Pollutants does not contain all polluting substances, and should perhaps be pruned likewise.
On further examination I find that the three non-substance pages which I mentioned are already linked under "see also" in the main article, which suffices for navigation. Just upmerge the main article and the sub-cat
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention to the parents of the nominated cat (for the record, I only placed that sub-cat within this one after the nomination); also selectively categorise the convention, protocol & network into the parent
Category:Biodegradable waste management. –
FayenaticLondon 19:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Joe Arroyo
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Category:Grupo Niche
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Category:Eastman School of Music alumni
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:speedy keep. The consensus was that the current name fits with the existing naming convention, so the nominator withdrew the nomination. An RFC is underway at
Wikipedia talk:Categorization#RfC - Alumni, which may lead to changes in the convention. If there is a consensus there to change the convention in a way that affects this category, feel free to nominate this category again. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Indeed so. US editors seem content with a long string of words followed by 'alumni' (eg
Category:School of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston alumni) whereas UK editors find 'Alumni of' to be more comprehensible. Other countries choose one or the other. (ENGVAR perhaps.)
Oculi (
talk) 22:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I wonder who considers the interests of our readers; especially on articles about people who have degrees from institutions on each side of the Atlantic? Clearly, there will be no consensus for this change; I now propose a speedy closeAndy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits 22:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
keep per Oculi.
Mangoe (
talk) 20:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment/lament. Why—no seriously—WHY? are there two different standards that are used amongst the various countries? It's things like this that make WP categories frustrating. It's not an ENGVAR issue at all. If anything, it's this WikiProject-inspired "change what you want but don't mess with my country's content or the things I'm interested in"-attitude that constantly works to the detriment of the whole project. This is an issue that we should be able to agree on one form or the other to be implemented universally.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
You are probably right. I would probably support the rename of all x alumni to alumni of x categories, but I see no reason to support the rename of just this one. It seems that people in England are more into using formal names and formal phrasing, but I am not sure that reflects anything more than the foibles of usage in wikipedia. At some level I have suspicions that it might be the other way around. In the US we know it is the University of Michigan, not
Michigan Univeristy, however in Britain
Oxford University is about as used as the
University of Oxford. This is not an English usage thing, this is a "we want to show that our area is different" thing. It makes no sense really.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films in The Hobbit film series
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:OC#SMALL. The category will never have more than three articles in it.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 16:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment - It might have more if you include the LotR movies, and other Hobbit and LotR films (not made by Jackson).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 16:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per Peterkingiron above. No need for this subcategory, unless there end up being rather more films in this series than have so far been announced...
Robofish (
talk) 00:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The Hobit: An Unexpected Journey is not, which is why I did not realize that category existed.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The parent to this category is in "Middle-earth films]], if you followed the tree up. --
76.65.128.43 (
talk) 01:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete—The sub-category is not required because articles should not be in both a sub-category and its parent, and it would be very strange not to have the films in
Category:The Hobbit film series, but relegated to a sub-category. The purpose of categories is to aid navigation, which this sub-category does not.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 01:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sportswomen from Newcastle, New South Wales
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The result of the discussion was:keep.
delldot∇. 00:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary. Sportspeople aren't divided by gender.
...William 12:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep Useful. The majority of sports still divide men's and women's competitions. Wouldn't it have been easier to wait until the earlier nominations were closed to see which way the rest of the community wants to go with this? --
99of9 (
talk) 12:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment. There are categories like this
[1] for female athletes. As I pointed out previously, the categorization by gender and city/territory location isn't done by city. Except it seems in Australia. The debate doesn't have to wait either
...William 14:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm not talking about past practice on Wiki (although Jayvdb has shown you some counterexamples on that), I'm talking about real life. Sports people are very used to constantly being divided by gender, in competition and out, it is one of the ways that humans categorize sportspeople when we talk about them and write about them. Thus it is a useful category to put encyclopedia articles in. Per
WP:USEFUL. --
99of9 (
talk) 11:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom. No need for this level of breakdown. Being "
useful" isn't a valid reason to keep it. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead 19:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Why don't people read the links they cite anymore? The last sentence of
WP:USEFUL explicitly states: "There are some pages within Wikipedia which are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more—disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects, for instance—so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion; for these types of pages, usefulness is a valid argument.". --
99of9 (
talk) 23:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Newcastle is not Sydney, so this is not the same thing. With city categories larger cities often have some specific type of people categories that smaller cities lack. So even if the Sydney ones were kepts it would not force a keep on the Newcastle ones.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Is anyone going to make a Newcastle-specific argument for deletion then? I'd really rather not have to copy both my keep votes and my rebuttal of false-policy into many more carbon copy CfDs. --
99of9 (
talk) 23:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep I was originally going to argue on the particular merits of Newcastle to upmerge, but I decided that actually the particular merits of Newcastle suggest to keep. The Newcaslte category has over 100 entries overall, and it makes sense to split sportspeople by gender since almsot all sports competitions are so divided, so this works.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. The nominator's basic premise is false: sportspeople are routinely divided by gender, per
WP:Cat gender, because sport itself is routinely divided by gender. The nominator also fails to note that any upmerger should be to two categories:
Category:Sportswomen from New South Wales to
Category:Sportspeople from Newcastle, New South Wales. Both of those target categories are well-populated, so sub-categorising them by gender is a good way of managing the categories, and follows the defining characteristics of sportpeople. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sportswomen from New South Wales
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The result of the discussion was:keep.
delldot∇. 00:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary. Sportspeople aren't divided by gender.
...William 12:34, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep Useful. The majority of sports still divide men's and women's competitions. Wouldn't it have been easier to wait until the earlier nominations were closed to see which way the rest of the community wants to go with this? --
99of9 (
talk) 12:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment. There are categories like this
[2] for female athletes. As I pointed out previously, the categorization by gender and city/territory location isn't done by city. Except it seems in Australia. The debate doesn't have to wait either
...William 14:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom. No need for this level of breakdown. Being "
useful" isn't a valid reason to keep it. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead 19:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:USEFUL is about removing non-encyclopedic content so I don't think it's relevant here - if anything the last paragraph of it applies.
DexDor (
talk) 07:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per actually reading
WP:USEFUL and
WP:Cat/gender. Nom has offered no real reason for deletion. Sportspeople are indeed commonly divided by gender, so 'we don't do cities' is not much help without an actual reason why they shouldn't be done that couldn't be taken as 'we haven't gotten around to it yet'. As others have pointed out, there exist by region splits in some male-only categories, so this is simply a more overt version of something already done, and I would suggest being more overt in categorisation is very much 'useful' to readers. --
Qetuth (
talk) 22:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per the reasons offered by Qetuth.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep splitting sportspeople by gneder at the state level is entriely reasonable.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. The nominator's basic premise is false: sportspeople are routinely divided by gender, per
WP:Cat gender, because sport itself is routinely divided by gender. It's disappointing to see a CFD nomination made on the basis of such an easily-falsifiable proposition; a {{
minnow}}ing is in order. This particular category is well-populated, and is an appropriate subdivisoon of the well-populated parent
Category:Sportspeople from New South Wales. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:User Pages
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Nominator's rationale: User pages are in the tiered "Wikipedians" category. This is an outlier created last month, with only eight users in it.
McGeddon (
talk) 09:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom - I guess this was created by mistake and the creator didn't realise that the 'Wikipedians' category includes all user pages already.
Robofish (
talk) 00:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Wikipedia categories named after musicians
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The result of the discussion was:delete all. In future similar cases it would be appreciated if nominators would check that an artists' songs and albums categories are mutually linked using {{
related category}}, and of course linked to the artist's page. The category only becomes unnecessary once those links are provided. –
FayenaticLondon 19:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. Per numerous precedent and
WP:OC#Eponymous, these categories have minimal content to justify them. None of these have anything more than songs and albums for the artist as child categories, and maybe a template. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 08:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete the first one (1 subcat). I am not bothered either way about the others (2 subcats).
Oculi (
talk) 09:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete all none of these meet the existing requirements for starting an eponymous category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Webcomic authors
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Nominator's rationale: "Authors" is terribly ambiguous. With webcomics, nearly all the creators are both author and artist, so splitting doesn't make much sense. As very few creatives take over someone else's webcomic, "creators" seems the best renaming possibility, similar to
Category:Comics creators.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 08:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American Reformed clergy
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The result of the discussion was:rename both to
Category:American Calvinist and Reformed clergy. From the discussion, both category names are correct but not expansive enough, yet both overlap. So putting them together seems the smartest thing.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: All Reformed are Calvinists, but all Calvinists are not Reformed... for the purposes of Wikipedia these two terms are interchangeable and having two categories is redundant.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 04:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment—If not all Calvinists are "Reformed", then shouldn't the Reformed category be a subcategory of the Calvinist category? At the moment it's the other way round. Additionally, if not all Calvinists are Reformed, then Reformed is a subset of Calvinists and leaving the categories unmerged is probably correct.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 09:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - Some people use the term interchangeably in academic literature, others do not. There is no general concensus, but on Wikipedia the terms are used interchangeably. Everywhere except here. See
Reformed for evidence of that.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 12:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I think the reason they are arranged as they are now is because some people see Reformed as a more general term for the tradition (which includes mainline Presbyterians and
United Reformeds who dislike association with Calvin and traditional Calvinist teachings) and reserve Calvinist for those holding a specific soteriological/predestinarian perspective. I can't know for sure, because there is no description given at
Category:Reformed Christians. --
JFH (
talk) 16:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Actually no. "People" don't see it this way. The only reason that "Reformed" is a redirect to "Calvinism" is that Jfhutson changed the redirect from
Reformed churches as part of what appears to be a campaign to force the two to be equivalent here on WP. Jfhutson's argument immediately above is specious.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Please share with us your preferred definitions for the terms. I just tried to answer your question based on how I have heard some people use the terms. I said some people differentiate the terms this way, and these are just mainline Presbies I know who don't like to be called Calvinists. As for my redirect and move of
Continental Reformed church, why is CfD being used to oppose a usage which is being accepted in the mainspace? --
JFH (
talk) 17:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Reformed and Calvinism have been synonymous on Wikipedia for as long as I can remember.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 19:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The rationale does not seem rational, as the comment says. The same thing seems to be going on at a higher level: There is
Category:Reformed clergy and
Category:Calvinist clergy, and there is the same strange reversal where Calvinist is in the Reformed category. So this non-equivalence of Reformed and Calvinist seems to be going on other places besides here.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 22:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge this as well as
Category:Reformed Christians and it's subcats, as your argument applies equally there. See the discussion
here. I actually think
Category:Reformed Christians would be the better destination, but I'll take either one. I'd be interested to hear what you mean by Calvinist and Reformed when you say "All Reformed are Calvinists, but all Calvinists are not Reformed." Regardless, the terms are obviously confusing and ambiguous, and it would be better to have one category tree for Calvinists or Reformed Christians as broadly construed to mean everyone following the Reformed tradition as per
Calvinism. I found the last discussion on this maddening because several people asserted that there was some difference between the terms without explaining what it was, and those who did had conflicting definitions. I'd like at least for this discussion to lead to a description for
Category:Reformed Christians, because for now I don't know what should go in there and what should go in
Category:Calvinists. --
JFH (
talk) 15:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Using this discussion as a back-door to get the no consensus result of your previous bid for merge overturned is inappropriate.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
It would be inappropriate to have this as an outlier. Why would we keep the current setup if ReformedArsenal's logic is accepted? --
JFH (
talk) 17:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - Being Reformed includes your ecclesiology and sacramental theology. Primarily it means that you subordinate yourself to a subordinate standard in the form of one of the Reformed confessions (Heidelberg, Belgic, or Westminster). Being a Calvinist is predominantly a soteriological perspective and has little implication for your ecclesiology (Calvinistic Baptists are an example of this). Technically speaking to be Reformed you would need to affirm infant baptism in a covenantal framework. However, as I mentioned above... different academic resources use the term interchangeably with Calvinist (particularly resources that fall in the category of non-Reformed Calvinist leanings, i.e. John Piper, John MacArthur, etc), and the precedent on Wikipedia is to use them interchangeably.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 15:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
OK, I just want to reiterate that this is just one way the terms are differentiated, and it is somewhat problematic. For example,
Reformed Baptists uses "Reformed" in the primary usage for that tradition. I realize you are agreeing that they should be used interchangeably, I just want it to be crystal clear for everyone. --
JFH (
talk) 16:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Well, I don't agree that they should be used interchangeably... however that is the way they are being used, and it isn't pragmatic to go through all of Wikipedia and fix every article (And there is academic attestation to the equivocation of the terms).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 16:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Perhaps Reverse merge -- "reformed" is a denominational status. "Calvinist" can be a theological position, held by members of a number of protestant denominations. The two intersect, but they are not the same. I would draw attention to two smaller UK denominations - Wesleyan Reformed and Calvinistic Methodist, which (if American) would fit into one of the categories under discussion, at least in theory. I would prefer to see clergy being categorised more by denomination.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose merger and rename I think the denominational approach is to be preferred, and is easier to apply. The theological position can be used to then classify denominations, and I imagine some denominations will straddle positions. Seeing "American Calivinist" as a subcategory of "American Reformed", as is now the case, doesn't seem right to me. And certainly people from every denomination that puts "reformed" in its name don't all belong in the category. I meant the category to refer to denominations stemming from the Dutch Reformed and similar traditions. A note to this effect probably belongs on the category page. I think these denominations adopted the name "reformed" first, and so perhaps the category can remain with its current name, that is with no qualification as to what sort of reformed church. Other "reformed" denominations from different traditions could certainly use "reformed" in the category name, but would want to include other information to differentiate it from the unqualified category.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 17:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The word "Reformed" is used in two different ways. One is to describe denominations that hold to a specific set of doctrinal convictions (Dutch Reformed Church, German Reformed Church, etc). The other is to describe those theological convictions (See RC Sproul's What is Reformed Theology). Currently, Calvinist is used in the latter, and the line is getting blurred with Reformed (For example... Matt Chandler was moved to Reformed, despite the fact that he is no ta part of a Reformed denomination.) If we're going to use it in the denominational sense, then there needs to be categories for specific Reformed denominations, not just a Reformed tag. If we're using it in the theological sense, then it is used interchangeably with Calvinist on Wikipedia.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 19:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
That sounds like a situation I was trying to deal with. I would like to differentiate clergy by the congregations they serve, and/or also by authorities they represent or are certified by. I got the sense there were some American congregations that came pretty directly from this continental Reformed tradition, and had preachers that did as well, and there were other congregations that didn't come directly from this tradition, but could accept a minister coming from that tradition. In both cases, I would probably use this American Reformed clergy category for the clergy involved, but maybe in the second case I could also see giving the minister in addition a category corresponding to the congregation served. I don't think this category needs to be renamed, but it definitely should get a description, and I put a request there, since I am not prepared to put a description at this point, but what you are saying sounds close to what I was thinking. The same request is made at
Category:Reformed clergy, and the necessity is probably as great there.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 22:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose there are churches in the US that use the "reformed" name, but there have always been many congregationalist and Prysbyterian churches in the US that are clearly Calvinist but not designated as reformed, so this is clearly not the same thing as Calvinist.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Sigh... Reformed describes a theological system. Presbyterians are BY DEFINITION Reformed (that is, they come out of the Reformed tradition following down through
John Knox and the Scotish Reformation). Congregationalists are NOT Reformed... since being Reformed BY DEFINITION includes a presbyterian polity (that is, an ecclesiastical government that is Elder based, not congregational).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 01:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
But many congregationalist are Calvinists, so you just admitted the terms are not synonymous, which means that the argument to merge the two falls apart.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Did you even read what I've been saying?!? I explicitly said that they are not synonymous... but that they are being used that way on Wikipedia (and are used that way in other contexts as well). Therefore we have the choice to either fix all of Wikipedia (something I'm not willing to commit to) or have the categories reflect the equivocated usage that is already the precedent.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 05:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
If they are not synonymous than we should not merge them.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
That's not how categorization is supposed to work. There are many nuanced ways to use words which would not be acceptable for categorization. ReformedArsenal's opinion that they are not synonymous is based on his own usage of the terms, which does not have much attestation in RSes in my opinion. That usage will also be very difficult to use on WP because there are a large number of people who will self-identify as Reformed and who will be called Reformed in RSes who do not meet his standard. --
JFH (
talk) 18:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"the term "Reformed" specifically designates that branch of the Reformation of the western church originally characterized by a distinctively non-Lutheran, Augustinian sacramental theology with a high ecclesiology but little regard for ecclesiatical tradition that is not traceable to the Scriptures or the earliest church. - Johnson, Roger,
"What Is Reformed Theology?", Institute for Reformed Theology, Union Theological Seminary and Presbyterian School of Christian Education, retrieved 24 January 2013
"The best English expression of the Reformed faith is arguably contained in the Westminster Confession of Faith." -Westminster Theological Seminary,
What is Reformed Theology, retrieved 24 January 2013
"On the one hand, the words Reformed and Calvinist are historically and ecclesiastically rooted in confessional Reformed “theology, piety, and practice,” to employ the language of R. Scott Clark in his helpful epilogue, “Predestination Is Not Enough,” in
Clark, R. Scott (October 2008),
Recovering the Reformed Confession: Our Theology, Piety, and Practice, P & R Publishing Company,
ISBN978-1-59638-110-0, retrieved 24 January 2013." - Parsons, Burk,
"Calvinism Isn't Enough", Ligonier Ministries, retrieved 24 January 2013
I didn't say it wasn't used that way at all, especially in polemical and popular works. I just don't think it's that widespread, especially in historical literature, for us to make a distinction like that that's not going to be confusing in categorization. --
JFH (
talk) 20:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom; the theological debate above is interesting, but we cannot categorize pastors on whether the church they preach at is called reformed or not, so ReformedArsenal has the better argument. As for JFH's argument for broadening this debate, I'd hold off for now because it's the damned if you do and damned if you don't: by nominating more than one, there's an increased likelihood of no consensus. Let consensus gel here (if it does), and if this is an outlier, then nominate the sister categories for harmony, then the parent to match. Baby steps, which is part of the bureaucracy of the no bureaucracy...
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 23:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, etc. A reverse merge would also be better than no action, but the cat-tree makes more use of the term "Calvinist", so that seems the better way to go. tahcchat 22:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge.Support merge, but only to an amalgam, such as
Category:American Calvinist and Reformed clergy Not all Reformed are Calvinist - at least, according to some definitions of "Reformed" and "Calvinist". It is better to restrict the "Reformed" category to denominationally reformed rather than theologically reformed.
StAnselm (
talk) 23:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - So what do you do about all the Reformed folks who are not a part of a denomination that is called "Reformed" (All Presbyterians, and many Anglicans...)
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 23:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Possibly call them "Calvinist".
StAnselm (
talk) 00:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
So we're going to call some people who are Reformed "Calvinists" and other people who are Reformed "Reformed? That sure clears things up.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 02:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I would be amicable to identifying with something like Category: Members of Reformed Christian Denominations and then having a sub category for each denomination (Category: Member of the Dutch Reformed Denomination). I just think to call out people as Reformed while ignoring other people who are also Reformed is an error and presents something that is inaccurate. If we keep it denominationally based (and made clear by including the word denomination in the Category) I'd be fine with it.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 12:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I have changed my !vote above. If some people are saying "merge", and others are saying "reverse merge", it looks like we should have an amalgamation.
StAnselm (
talk) 21:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Overpasses
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. While we have an article on an
overpass, it is not clear how defining this is in classifying these structures. If you look at the articles, some are about overpasses and others are about much more then this one feature in an interchange. Based on looking at the contents, I thought that a rename to
Category:Interchanges might be an option, but that was deleted
here as empty. Proposing delete, but unsure if there is a better option which would include keeping. If I understand this correctly, an overpass is a bridge that crosses a road or a rail line.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 02:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment aren't they a form of
Category:Viaducts ? (underpasses, overpasses, interchanges, etc) --
76.65.128.43 (
talk) 06:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Road interchanges which is where all those deleted categories on interchanges finally ended up. I don't think that making a sharp distinction between overpasses as individual components of interchanges and the interchange as a whole is justified considering that most of these articles are either plainly about the whole interchange or at least blur the difference.
Mangoe (
talk) 15:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cold War intercontinental ballistic missiles
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. Deleting the Cold War weapons categories en masse might be possible, but this corner case should not be where that effort starts.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:14, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Some of this group has been nominated before, as part of the clean-up of
User:Target for Today's category-creating enthusiasms. The situation hasn't changed: there's no such thing as a Soviet weapon that isn't a Cold War weapon, more or less by definition; and it turns out that the American SSBNs all date from the same period. Therefore all of these categories overlap with other categories or only contain categories in this structure which I propose to be rid of.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Support -- "Cold War" is redundant and overcategorisation. There were virtually none pre-Cold War, and I suspect no (or few) new ones developed post-Cold War. The USA/USSR distinction is worth having, with those of other states (FRance/Iran/North Korea) left in the parent. I think the UK ones were US types.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I am still considering a larger-scale examination of the cold war weapons categories. There are after all hardly any non-Cold-war missiles of the US, and of course none for the Soviet Union.
Mangoe (
talk) 20:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
As long as we have a
Category:Weapons by period category structure then we shouldn't be taking ICBM/SLBM articles out of it. That structure is a bit of a mess so merging/renaming "Cold War" cats (e.g. into "post-1945" or "20th-century" cats) might make sense, but that isn't what this CFD is proposing. It isn't logical to say "all Soviet missiles are Cold War missiles so they should be taken out of the Cold War category".
DexDor (
talk) 21:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
This (unlike the Falklands War categories for example) isn't just a "weapons by conflict" category; "
Weapons of the Cold War" can be interpreted as "Weapons introduced during the Cold War period" and indeed the category is in both the "Military equipment by conflict" and "Weapons by period" trees. Currently any articles in the Cold War weapons category should not also be in
Category:Weapons post-1945 as that category would be redundant. Therefore we shouldn't delete Cold War categories without upmerging most/all of the articles to a post-1945 or 20th-century category (incidentally, that overlap needs sorting out as well).
DexDor (
talk) 06:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Hmm. I guess I can see that point - rather like the "Napoleonic period". In that case the category needs to be taken out of "Military equipment by conflict" (which it really shouldn't have been in per se anyway). This particular set of categories though is redundant, as mentioned - and I would argue that upmerging to the post-1945 category (which should be divided from "pre-1945" in the 20th Century as the rocket/missile/jet era weapons are quite distinct from the previous ones) would be better than keeping. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 07:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerging Cold War categories to post-1945 categories is a step we might take in the future, but that should be done separately from this nom which only covers a few of the Cold War categories.
DexDor (
talk) 19:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge/Delete per nom. There are not enough from other periods to make this dinstinction worth while.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep all. The nominator is correct that most of these types of weapon were developed in the Cold War, and that few were developed either before or after that period. However, DexDor correctly observes that unless these categs are merged to multiple targets, they will be removed from some of their parents, which just increases category clutter and impedes maintenance. The Bushranger cites
WP:COMMONSENSE ... but I don't see any
common sense in taking a series of mostly categories containing dozens of articles, and doubling the number of categories in which each article is placed. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The common sense came from the fact that "all ICBMs are Cold War period weapons" Therefore "ICBMs of the Cold War" is a bit redundant... (I would point out, though, to the nom, that Soviet weapons from 1919-1945 would not be Cold War weapons.) -
The BushrangerOne ping only 07:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
An ICBM is (by definition) a missile with certain characteristics (e.g. range). Having entered service during the Cold War is not part of that definition; the next ICBM type to be fielded by any country (DPRK?) will be an ICBM, but not a Cold War ICBM. Even if we knew there would never be another type of ICBM that's no reason to remove articles (e.g.
R-29 Vysota) from the "weapons by period" tree.
DexDor (
talk) 19:44, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep All The time period that these weapons were developed and introduced is a specifically relevant and defining characteristic appropriate for categorization and an aid to navigation across these articles.
Alansohn (
talk) 19:55, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:LGBT scientists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:withdrawn by nominator. I forgot about the very recent discussion and it's clear that this nomination isn't going to go through.
Mangoe (
talk) 19:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. There appears to be a growing consensus, as expressed in several recent deletion discussions, that many if not most LGBT by occupation categories are not notable intersections. Some subcats of this have already been deleted. It seems to me hard to argue that there is some connection between sexuality and scientific inquiry in general.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per whatever I said when this was nominated last week.
Rivertorch (
talk) 06:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep the nomination rationale is an
WP:OTHERSTUFF invalid argument.
Diego (
talk) 07:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per MrX. Previous discussion was closed 2 days ago.--В и к и T 10:05, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Withdraw My bad, I forgot about the most recent discussion.
Mangoe (
talk) 11:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Passenger train by highest speed in commercial operations
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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I'm not sure that
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed is workable. While the train may be capable of a certain speed, does it actually operate at that speed? This is the maximum speed that the train can achieve.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
RenameCategory:Passenger trains by speed or perhaps
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed (as Peterkingiron, but with an "s"). Perhaps we should also think about how this is organised - should a 350+ train also be in all the other cats (possibly by nesting the cats) ? or would it be better to have a category ("Passenger trains by speed in kph") where the speed is used as the index (and the cat is limited to >200kph trains) ?
DexDor (
talk) 20:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Category:Skyscrapers by height is how this type of problem is handled for buildings. Keep in mind that these subcategories may well be arbitrary definitions.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete as
WP:OC. Not especially defining, and often moot - most of the lines aren't the responsibility of Mussolini, and thus, despite rated speeds, they don't run on time.
-
The BushrangerOne ping only 02:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Reply. That argument might have some traction if we discussing the sub-categories, but the sub-cats are not part of this nomination. The nominated category is a {{
container category}}, and deleting it will isolate the sub-cats. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)reply
...gah, the subcats are even worse. Where's the
WP:TNT when you need it. They absolutely need to go. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 01:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Cart before the horse, Bushie. I would probably support a proposal to delete the subcats. However the subcats are not part of this nom, and so long as they remain, this container cat is needed. If the sub-cats are deleted, this one can be
speedied as empty. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
Neutral on renaming, but oppose deletion. A {{
container category}} should not be simply deleted unless empty; it may be upmerged if that is a better way of organising tings, but deleting it just isolates the subcats. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
That would be classification by an arbitrary definition. So it would not work.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 03:50, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Arbitrary? Not on our part. Description by reliable secondary sources as high-speed could be the standard.
Rivertorch (
talk) 19:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Except "high-speed" varies by country. 150 miles per hour (240 km/h) would be "high-speed" in the United States, but would produce yawns in France and downright impatience in Japan. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 20:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Absolutely right; the term "high-speed" is relative. That's why inclusion would be based on a reliable source describing a train as high-speed, not the actual speed of the train.
Rivertorch (
talk) 09:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
But those reliable sources may well differ by country. So if country A defines it as 100 mph and country B as 250 mph, what determines in a high speed category? By your position a train from country A doing 100 mph would be in a high speed category but a train from country B doing 245 mph would not be. That seems oh so wrong. Also, can you guarantee that this recognized standard will not change in the future? If it does, we would need to review membership in the category. If you do this, a fixed number, which is arbitrary, is clean and simple.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:48, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Weak support for
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed. While I don't agree with this, it is a move to a better name and an improvement over what we are using currently. Sometimes compromise is needed to improve things.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:52, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:listify and delete. I will ask the nominator to create the list. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This seems to be over-categorisation of 'performers by performance' (
WP:OC#PERF). Our general practice is to delete such categories, as they're non-defining: true, reading at a presidential inauguration is a rare honour, but it's still not really a defining characteristic of any of these people. This is the kind of content that's better expressed with a list than a category.
Robofish (
talk) 23:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete this is a performer by performance category, which we do not do.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete - Over-categorization. However, this would probably make for a great article.
Blueboar (
talk) 04:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I would second the notion that this could make an article, and probably more than just a list.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Listify if neceessary then delete -- it is a performance by performer category. Lists do the job much better, because they can be placed in order.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:23, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hindi loandwords
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete all, and do not listify. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 17:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale This is an encyclopedia. Thus the articles are on things. The article
Cotton, which is in one of these categories, is on the thing called cotton, not on the word cotton. Thus we categoriez things by what they are, not what they are named. We do not categorize things by having a shared name, but that is exactly what we are doing here. This is a bad idea. It is also much better covered by lists. Categories should group things by having like traits, but this category has nothing to do with what the thing is, but what it is called. The categories garbanzo bean and chick pea are in should be exactly the same because they are the same thing, but having categories like this would lead the article to be categoriezed differently by what name we chose to give it.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 23:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
However the articles are not on words and phrases, they are on things.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and previous CFDs (
example). It's not necessary to listify in WP as the Wiktionary categories contain such a list.
DexDor (
talk) 07:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete categorization of titles, rather than articles, is not proper (see
WP:OCAT, and we have recent precedents on this.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 23:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Wow, I had forgotten about the Loanwords cat discussion (and I even was invovled in it), so I guess we have a precedent to delete.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep (at worst listify before deletion)-- These are all relatively unusual etymological sources. Greek, Latin, German, and French would be too common to make wothwhile categories. Some of the categories need purging of things like surnames. We might also make it a requirement that the article should include a discussion of the etymology.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Such a requirement would just encorage people to turn encyclopedia articles into dictionary articles. The articles are on the things, not the words.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 16:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete a complete mess. Some of these contain loanwords from that language in English, others contain loanwords in that language from other languages, others contain loanwords from that language in other languages. Clearly these names are extremely ambiguous, and useless, since they are being used in a multitude of ways. --
70.24.246.233 (
talk) 16:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment I have come up with the best description of why this category is a downright horrible idea. We have an article
Looting, which we then say is exactly the same as sacking, plundering, despoiling, despoliation, and pillaging. The article should still be in the same categories no matter which of those names we place it in. However if we moved it to being at
plundering, whicb is a redirect to this article, we could not put it in
Category:Hindi loanwords because plundering comes from German. However since plundering and looing are the same thing, they should be in the same categories.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Another example is
Cheetah. If for some reason we decided to rename all animal articles to their scientific names and thus renamed this article
Acinonyx jubatus, it should still be in the same categories. It would still fit in
Category:Mammals of Asia and even
Category:Animals described in 1776 but it would not longer fit in this category. That shows that we are here categorizing by other than what the thing is, and that is just plain a bad idea.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes. Articles should have appropriate categorization based on what the title means (i.e. the subject of the article), not the title itself. Most articles (even those with titles like
Yara-ma-yha-who) also have subject-based categories. Articles like
Doryanthes excelsa don't even have a title that's of Aboriginal origin. Having a pale imitation of
Wiktionary:Category:Australian Aboriginal languages just clutters up Wikipedia.
DexDor (
talk) 06:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete all Categorization by etymology is a bad idea.
Mangoe (
talk) 13:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Persistent organic pollutants
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talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:delete, after a selective upmerge per Fayenatic london's proposal. .The difficulty with this category is that persistence is not a binary characteristic (where compounds either persist or don't); it is a scale, in which compounds may have a half-life ranging from seconds to years. Without a threshold, a category of
persistent organic pollutants is meaningless (or at least
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE, but attempts to apply a threshold fall foul of
WP:OC#ARBITRARY. So the consensus is to retain the
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention, which does have clear inclusion criteria, and delete this one. Editors may wish to consider creating a list of other
persistent organic pollutants. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 18:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep: I see no problem with a
fuzzy category. As currently structured,
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention is a subcategory within this one; that seems appropriate to me. A logical analogy would be restricting the categorization of hazardous substances to only those substances covered under the European RoHS Directive; this overly restrictive approach would not make sense. Thanks,
DA Sonnenfeld (
talk) 22:42, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I did not mean my words to be taken as a vote to keep. –
FayenaticLondon 19:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The complaint is that the boundaries of the category are vague, but presumably the criterion is that the substances are not naturally degraded in the envirnoment. Surely that is a robust boundary.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes, there is a sufficiently robust boundary. Some chemicals are defined as
persistent organic pollutants by reputable sources and that is what should be in the category (or subcat). --
Alan Liefting (
talk -
contribs) 19:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Peterkingiron is wrong. Even Persistent Organic Pollutants under the Stockholm Convention are in fact naturally degraded in the environment, just slow. Thresholds in half-lives are two months for water and six months for soil and sediment.
What kind of strong defining characteristic is there for compounds that are not regulated under the Stockholm convention? None that is not
OR. --
Leyo 22:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete, with very selective upmerge. Despite three
!votes to "keep", I am not seeing any policy reason to do so, and in particular those opinions have not addressed the objection from the guideline
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE. Many of the compounds in the category are
persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic substances but if they do not meet a threshold definitin of POP then they should not be so categorised.
DA Sonnenfeld refers above to categorization of hazardous substances, but that gives no precedent at all, since
category:Hazardous materials is restricted to general articles about handling of haz.mat. Similarly, the head category
Category:Pollutants does not contain all polluting substances, and should perhaps be pruned likewise.
On further examination I find that the three non-substance pages which I mentioned are already linked under "see also" in the main article, which suffices for navigation. Just upmerge the main article and the sub-cat
Category:Persistent Organic Pollutant under the Stockholm Convention to the parents of the nominated cat (for the record, I only placed that sub-cat within this one after the nomination); also selectively categorise the convention, protocol & network into the parent
Category:Biodegradable waste management. –
FayenaticLondon 19:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Joe Arroyo
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Category:Grupo Niche
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Category:Eastman School of Music alumni
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:speedy keep. The consensus was that the current name fits with the existing naming convention, so the nominator withdrew the nomination. An RFC is underway at
Wikipedia talk:Categorization#RfC - Alumni, which may lead to changes in the convention. If there is a consensus there to change the convention in a way that affects this category, feel free to nominate this category again. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 12:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Indeed so. US editors seem content with a long string of words followed by 'alumni' (eg
Category:School of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston alumni) whereas UK editors find 'Alumni of' to be more comprehensible. Other countries choose one or the other. (ENGVAR perhaps.)
Oculi (
talk) 22:07, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I wonder who considers the interests of our readers; especially on articles about people who have degrees from institutions on each side of the Atlantic? Clearly, there will be no consensus for this change; I now propose a speedy closeAndy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits 22:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
keep per Oculi.
Mangoe (
talk) 20:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment/lament. Why—no seriously—WHY? are there two different standards that are used amongst the various countries? It's things like this that make WP categories frustrating. It's not an ENGVAR issue at all. If anything, it's this WikiProject-inspired "change what you want but don't mess with my country's content or the things I'm interested in"-attitude that constantly works to the detriment of the whole project. This is an issue that we should be able to agree on one form or the other to be implemented universally.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
You are probably right. I would probably support the rename of all x alumni to alumni of x categories, but I see no reason to support the rename of just this one. It seems that people in England are more into using formal names and formal phrasing, but I am not sure that reflects anything more than the foibles of usage in wikipedia. At some level I have suspicions that it might be the other way around. In the US we know it is the University of Michigan, not
Michigan Univeristy, however in Britain
Oxford University is about as used as the
University of Oxford. This is not an English usage thing, this is a "we want to show that our area is different" thing. It makes no sense really.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films in The Hobbit film series
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Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:OC#SMALL. The category will never have more than three articles in it.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 16:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment - It might have more if you include the LotR movies, and other Hobbit and LotR films (not made by Jackson).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 16:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per Peterkingiron above. No need for this subcategory, unless there end up being rather more films in this series than have so far been announced...
Robofish (
talk) 00:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The Hobit: An Unexpected Journey is not, which is why I did not realize that category existed.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The parent to this category is in "Middle-earth films]], if you followed the tree up. --
76.65.128.43 (
talk) 01:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete—The sub-category is not required because articles should not be in both a sub-category and its parent, and it would be very strange not to have the films in
Category:The Hobbit film series, but relegated to a sub-category. The purpose of categories is to aid navigation, which this sub-category does not.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 01:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sportswomen from Newcastle, New South Wales
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The result of the discussion was:keep.
delldot∇. 00:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary. Sportspeople aren't divided by gender.
...William 12:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep Useful. The majority of sports still divide men's and women's competitions. Wouldn't it have been easier to wait until the earlier nominations were closed to see which way the rest of the community wants to go with this? --
99of9 (
talk) 12:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment. There are categories like this
[1] for female athletes. As I pointed out previously, the categorization by gender and city/territory location isn't done by city. Except it seems in Australia. The debate doesn't have to wait either
...William 14:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I'm not talking about past practice on Wiki (although Jayvdb has shown you some counterexamples on that), I'm talking about real life. Sports people are very used to constantly being divided by gender, in competition and out, it is one of the ways that humans categorize sportspeople when we talk about them and write about them. Thus it is a useful category to put encyclopedia articles in. Per
WP:USEFUL. --
99of9 (
talk) 11:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom. No need for this level of breakdown. Being "
useful" isn't a valid reason to keep it. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead 19:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Why don't people read the links they cite anymore? The last sentence of
WP:USEFUL explicitly states: "There are some pages within Wikipedia which are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more—disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects, for instance—so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion; for these types of pages, usefulness is a valid argument.". --
99of9 (
talk) 23:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Newcastle is not Sydney, so this is not the same thing. With city categories larger cities often have some specific type of people categories that smaller cities lack. So even if the Sydney ones were kepts it would not force a keep on the Newcastle ones.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Is anyone going to make a Newcastle-specific argument for deletion then? I'd really rather not have to copy both my keep votes and my rebuttal of false-policy into many more carbon copy CfDs. --
99of9 (
talk) 23:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep I was originally going to argue on the particular merits of Newcastle to upmerge, but I decided that actually the particular merits of Newcastle suggest to keep. The Newcaslte category has over 100 entries overall, and it makes sense to split sportspeople by gender since almsot all sports competitions are so divided, so this works.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. The nominator's basic premise is false: sportspeople are routinely divided by gender, per
WP:Cat gender, because sport itself is routinely divided by gender. The nominator also fails to note that any upmerger should be to two categories:
Category:Sportswomen from New South Wales to
Category:Sportspeople from Newcastle, New South Wales. Both of those target categories are well-populated, so sub-categorising them by gender is a good way of managing the categories, and follows the defining characteristics of sportpeople. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sportswomen from New South Wales
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The result of the discussion was:keep.
delldot∇. 00:42, 6 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary. Sportspeople aren't divided by gender.
...William 12:34, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep Useful. The majority of sports still divide men's and women's competitions. Wouldn't it have been easier to wait until the earlier nominations were closed to see which way the rest of the community wants to go with this? --
99of9 (
talk) 12:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment. There are categories like this
[2] for female athletes. As I pointed out previously, the categorization by gender and city/territory location isn't done by city. Except it seems in Australia. The debate doesn't have to wait either
...William 14:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nom. No need for this level of breakdown. Being "
useful" isn't a valid reason to keep it. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead 19:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:USEFUL is about removing non-encyclopedic content so I don't think it's relevant here - if anything the last paragraph of it applies.
DexDor (
talk) 07:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per actually reading
WP:USEFUL and
WP:Cat/gender. Nom has offered no real reason for deletion. Sportspeople are indeed commonly divided by gender, so 'we don't do cities' is not much help without an actual reason why they shouldn't be done that couldn't be taken as 'we haven't gotten around to it yet'. As others have pointed out, there exist by region splits in some male-only categories, so this is simply a more overt version of something already done, and I would suggest being more overt in categorisation is very much 'useful' to readers. --
Qetuth (
talk) 22:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per the reasons offered by Qetuth.
Dimadick (
talk) 09:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep splitting sportspeople by gneder at the state level is entriely reasonable.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep. The nominator's basic premise is false: sportspeople are routinely divided by gender, per
WP:Cat gender, because sport itself is routinely divided by gender. It's disappointing to see a CFD nomination made on the basis of such an easily-falsifiable proposition; a {{
minnow}}ing is in order. This particular category is well-populated, and is an appropriate subdivisoon of the well-populated parent
Category:Sportspeople from New South Wales. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:User Pages
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: User pages are in the tiered "Wikipedians" category. This is an outlier created last month, with only eight users in it.
McGeddon (
talk) 09:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom - I guess this was created by mistake and the creator didn't realise that the 'Wikipedians' category includes all user pages already.
Robofish (
talk) 00:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Wikipedia categories named after musicians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:delete all. In future similar cases it would be appreciated if nominators would check that an artists' songs and albums categories are mutually linked using {{
related category}}, and of course linked to the artist's page. The category only becomes unnecessary once those links are provided. –
FayenaticLondon 19:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. Per numerous precedent and
WP:OC#Eponymous, these categories have minimal content to justify them. None of these have anything more than songs and albums for the artist as child categories, and maybe a template. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 08:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete the first one (1 subcat). I am not bothered either way about the others (2 subcats).
Oculi (
talk) 09:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete all none of these meet the existing requirements for starting an eponymous category.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Webcomic authors
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: "Authors" is terribly ambiguous. With webcomics, nearly all the creators are both author and artist, so splitting doesn't make much sense. As very few creatives take over someone else's webcomic, "creators" seems the best renaming possibility, similar to
Category:Comics creators.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 08:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:American Reformed clergy
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:rename both to
Category:American Calvinist and Reformed clergy. From the discussion, both category names are correct but not expansive enough, yet both overlap. So putting them together seems the smartest thing.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: All Reformed are Calvinists, but all Calvinists are not Reformed... for the purposes of Wikipedia these two terms are interchangeable and having two categories is redundant.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 04:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment—If not all Calvinists are "Reformed", then shouldn't the Reformed category be a subcategory of the Calvinist category? At the moment it's the other way round. Additionally, if not all Calvinists are Reformed, then Reformed is a subset of Calvinists and leaving the categories unmerged is probably correct.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 09:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - Some people use the term interchangeably in academic literature, others do not. There is no general concensus, but on Wikipedia the terms are used interchangeably. Everywhere except here. See
Reformed for evidence of that.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 12:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I think the reason they are arranged as they are now is because some people see Reformed as a more general term for the tradition (which includes mainline Presbyterians and
United Reformeds who dislike association with Calvin and traditional Calvinist teachings) and reserve Calvinist for those holding a specific soteriological/predestinarian perspective. I can't know for sure, because there is no description given at
Category:Reformed Christians. --
JFH (
talk) 16:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Actually no. "People" don't see it this way. The only reason that "Reformed" is a redirect to "Calvinism" is that Jfhutson changed the redirect from
Reformed churches as part of what appears to be a campaign to force the two to be equivalent here on WP. Jfhutson's argument immediately above is specious.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Please share with us your preferred definitions for the terms. I just tried to answer your question based on how I have heard some people use the terms. I said some people differentiate the terms this way, and these are just mainline Presbies I know who don't like to be called Calvinists. As for my redirect and move of
Continental Reformed church, why is CfD being used to oppose a usage which is being accepted in the mainspace? --
JFH (
talk) 17:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Reformed and Calvinism have been synonymous on Wikipedia for as long as I can remember.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 19:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The rationale does not seem rational, as the comment says. The same thing seems to be going on at a higher level: There is
Category:Reformed clergy and
Category:Calvinist clergy, and there is the same strange reversal where Calvinist is in the Reformed category. So this non-equivalence of Reformed and Calvinist seems to be going on other places besides here.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 22:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge this as well as
Category:Reformed Christians and it's subcats, as your argument applies equally there. See the discussion
here. I actually think
Category:Reformed Christians would be the better destination, but I'll take either one. I'd be interested to hear what you mean by Calvinist and Reformed when you say "All Reformed are Calvinists, but all Calvinists are not Reformed." Regardless, the terms are obviously confusing and ambiguous, and it would be better to have one category tree for Calvinists or Reformed Christians as broadly construed to mean everyone following the Reformed tradition as per
Calvinism. I found the last discussion on this maddening because several people asserted that there was some difference between the terms without explaining what it was, and those who did had conflicting definitions. I'd like at least for this discussion to lead to a description for
Category:Reformed Christians, because for now I don't know what should go in there and what should go in
Category:Calvinists. --
JFH (
talk) 15:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Using this discussion as a back-door to get the no consensus result of your previous bid for merge overturned is inappropriate.
Beeswaxcandle (
talk) 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
It would be inappropriate to have this as an outlier. Why would we keep the current setup if ReformedArsenal's logic is accepted? --
JFH (
talk) 17:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - Being Reformed includes your ecclesiology and sacramental theology. Primarily it means that you subordinate yourself to a subordinate standard in the form of one of the Reformed confessions (Heidelberg, Belgic, or Westminster). Being a Calvinist is predominantly a soteriological perspective and has little implication for your ecclesiology (Calvinistic Baptists are an example of this). Technically speaking to be Reformed you would need to affirm infant baptism in a covenantal framework. However, as I mentioned above... different academic resources use the term interchangeably with Calvinist (particularly resources that fall in the category of non-Reformed Calvinist leanings, i.e. John Piper, John MacArthur, etc), and the precedent on Wikipedia is to use them interchangeably.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 15:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
OK, I just want to reiterate that this is just one way the terms are differentiated, and it is somewhat problematic. For example,
Reformed Baptists uses "Reformed" in the primary usage for that tradition. I realize you are agreeing that they should be used interchangeably, I just want it to be crystal clear for everyone. --
JFH (
talk) 16:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Well, I don't agree that they should be used interchangeably... however that is the way they are being used, and it isn't pragmatic to go through all of Wikipedia and fix every article (And there is academic attestation to the equivocation of the terms).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 16:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Perhaps Reverse merge -- "reformed" is a denominational status. "Calvinist" can be a theological position, held by members of a number of protestant denominations. The two intersect, but they are not the same. I would draw attention to two smaller UK denominations - Wesleyan Reformed and Calvinistic Methodist, which (if American) would fit into one of the categories under discussion, at least in theory. I would prefer to see clergy being categorised more by denomination.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose merger and rename I think the denominational approach is to be preferred, and is easier to apply. The theological position can be used to then classify denominations, and I imagine some denominations will straddle positions. Seeing "American Calivinist" as a subcategory of "American Reformed", as is now the case, doesn't seem right to me. And certainly people from every denomination that puts "reformed" in its name don't all belong in the category. I meant the category to refer to denominations stemming from the Dutch Reformed and similar traditions. A note to this effect probably belongs on the category page. I think these denominations adopted the name "reformed" first, and so perhaps the category can remain with its current name, that is with no qualification as to what sort of reformed church. Other "reformed" denominations from different traditions could certainly use "reformed" in the category name, but would want to include other information to differentiate it from the unqualified category.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 17:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The word "Reformed" is used in two different ways. One is to describe denominations that hold to a specific set of doctrinal convictions (Dutch Reformed Church, German Reformed Church, etc). The other is to describe those theological convictions (See RC Sproul's What is Reformed Theology). Currently, Calvinist is used in the latter, and the line is getting blurred with Reformed (For example... Matt Chandler was moved to Reformed, despite the fact that he is no ta part of a Reformed denomination.) If we're going to use it in the denominational sense, then there needs to be categories for specific Reformed denominations, not just a Reformed tag. If we're using it in the theological sense, then it is used interchangeably with Calvinist on Wikipedia.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 19:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
That sounds like a situation I was trying to deal with. I would like to differentiate clergy by the congregations they serve, and/or also by authorities they represent or are certified by. I got the sense there were some American congregations that came pretty directly from this continental Reformed tradition, and had preachers that did as well, and there were other congregations that didn't come directly from this tradition, but could accept a minister coming from that tradition. In both cases, I would probably use this American Reformed clergy category for the clergy involved, but maybe in the second case I could also see giving the minister in addition a category corresponding to the congregation served. I don't think this category needs to be renamed, but it definitely should get a description, and I put a request there, since I am not prepared to put a description at this point, but what you are saying sounds close to what I was thinking. The same request is made at
Category:Reformed clergy, and the necessity is probably as great there.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk) 22:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose there are churches in the US that use the "reformed" name, but there have always been many congregationalist and Prysbyterian churches in the US that are clearly Calvinist but not designated as reformed, so this is clearly not the same thing as Calvinist.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Sigh... Reformed describes a theological system. Presbyterians are BY DEFINITION Reformed (that is, they come out of the Reformed tradition following down through
John Knox and the Scotish Reformation). Congregationalists are NOT Reformed... since being Reformed BY DEFINITION includes a presbyterian polity (that is, an ecclesiastical government that is Elder based, not congregational).
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 01:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
But many congregationalist are Calvinists, so you just admitted the terms are not synonymous, which means that the argument to merge the two falls apart.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 04:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Did you even read what I've been saying?!? I explicitly said that they are not synonymous... but that they are being used that way on Wikipedia (and are used that way in other contexts as well). Therefore we have the choice to either fix all of Wikipedia (something I'm not willing to commit to) or have the categories reflect the equivocated usage that is already the precedent.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 05:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
If they are not synonymous than we should not merge them.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 18:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
That's not how categorization is supposed to work. There are many nuanced ways to use words which would not be acceptable for categorization. ReformedArsenal's opinion that they are not synonymous is based on his own usage of the terms, which does not have much attestation in RSes in my opinion. That usage will also be very difficult to use on WP because there are a large number of people who will self-identify as Reformed and who will be called Reformed in RSes who do not meet his standard. --
JFH (
talk) 18:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"the term "Reformed" specifically designates that branch of the Reformation of the western church originally characterized by a distinctively non-Lutheran, Augustinian sacramental theology with a high ecclesiology but little regard for ecclesiatical tradition that is not traceable to the Scriptures or the earliest church. - Johnson, Roger,
"What Is Reformed Theology?", Institute for Reformed Theology, Union Theological Seminary and Presbyterian School of Christian Education, retrieved 24 January 2013
"The best English expression of the Reformed faith is arguably contained in the Westminster Confession of Faith." -Westminster Theological Seminary,
What is Reformed Theology, retrieved 24 January 2013
"On the one hand, the words Reformed and Calvinist are historically and ecclesiastically rooted in confessional Reformed “theology, piety, and practice,” to employ the language of R. Scott Clark in his helpful epilogue, “Predestination Is Not Enough,” in
Clark, R. Scott (October 2008),
Recovering the Reformed Confession: Our Theology, Piety, and Practice, P & R Publishing Company,
ISBN978-1-59638-110-0, retrieved 24 January 2013." - Parsons, Burk,
"Calvinism Isn't Enough", Ligonier Ministries, retrieved 24 January 2013
I didn't say it wasn't used that way at all, especially in polemical and popular works. I just don't think it's that widespread, especially in historical literature, for us to make a distinction like that that's not going to be confusing in categorization. --
JFH (
talk) 20:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom; the theological debate above is interesting, but we cannot categorize pastors on whether the church they preach at is called reformed or not, so ReformedArsenal has the better argument. As for JFH's argument for broadening this debate, I'd hold off for now because it's the damned if you do and damned if you don't: by nominating more than one, there's an increased likelihood of no consensus. Let consensus gel here (if it does), and if this is an outlier, then nominate the sister categories for harmony, then the parent to match. Baby steps, which is part of the bureaucracy of the no bureaucracy...
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 23:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, etc. A reverse merge would also be better than no action, but the cat-tree makes more use of the term "Calvinist", so that seems the better way to go. tahcchat 22:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose merge.Support merge, but only to an amalgam, such as
Category:American Calvinist and Reformed clergy Not all Reformed are Calvinist - at least, according to some definitions of "Reformed" and "Calvinist". It is better to restrict the "Reformed" category to denominationally reformed rather than theologically reformed.
StAnselm (
talk) 23:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Response - So what do you do about all the Reformed folks who are not a part of a denomination that is called "Reformed" (All Presbyterians, and many Anglicans...)
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 23:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Possibly call them "Calvinist".
StAnselm (
talk) 00:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
So we're going to call some people who are Reformed "Calvinists" and other people who are Reformed "Reformed? That sure clears things up.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 02:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I would be amicable to identifying with something like Category: Members of Reformed Christian Denominations and then having a sub category for each denomination (Category: Member of the Dutch Reformed Denomination). I just think to call out people as Reformed while ignoring other people who are also Reformed is an error and presents something that is inaccurate. If we keep it denominationally based (and made clear by including the word denomination in the Category) I'd be fine with it.
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 12:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I have changed my !vote above. If some people are saying "merge", and others are saying "reverse merge", it looks like we should have an amalgamation.
StAnselm (
talk) 21:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
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Category:Overpasses
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. While we have an article on an
overpass, it is not clear how defining this is in classifying these structures. If you look at the articles, some are about overpasses and others are about much more then this one feature in an interchange. Based on looking at the contents, I thought that a rename to
Category:Interchanges might be an option, but that was deleted
here as empty. Proposing delete, but unsure if there is a better option which would include keeping. If I understand this correctly, an overpass is a bridge that crosses a road or a rail line.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 02:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment aren't they a form of
Category:Viaducts ? (underpasses, overpasses, interchanges, etc) --
76.65.128.43 (
talk) 06:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Category:Road interchanges which is where all those deleted categories on interchanges finally ended up. I don't think that making a sharp distinction between overpasses as individual components of interchanges and the interchange as a whole is justified considering that most of these articles are either plainly about the whole interchange or at least blur the difference.
Mangoe (
talk) 15:24, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cold War intercontinental ballistic missiles
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:no consensus. Deleting the Cold War weapons categories en masse might be possible, but this corner case should not be where that effort starts.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:14, 17 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Some of this group has been nominated before, as part of the clean-up of
User:Target for Today's category-creating enthusiasms. The situation hasn't changed: there's no such thing as a Soviet weapon that isn't a Cold War weapon, more or less by definition; and it turns out that the American SSBNs all date from the same period. Therefore all of these categories overlap with other categories or only contain categories in this structure which I propose to be rid of.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Support -- "Cold War" is redundant and overcategorisation. There were virtually none pre-Cold War, and I suspect no (or few) new ones developed post-Cold War. The USA/USSR distinction is worth having, with those of other states (FRance/Iran/North Korea) left in the parent. I think the UK ones were US types.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:03, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
I am still considering a larger-scale examination of the cold war weapons categories. There are after all hardly any non-Cold-war missiles of the US, and of course none for the Soviet Union.
Mangoe (
talk) 20:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
As long as we have a
Category:Weapons by period category structure then we shouldn't be taking ICBM/SLBM articles out of it. That structure is a bit of a mess so merging/renaming "Cold War" cats (e.g. into "post-1945" or "20th-century" cats) might make sense, but that isn't what this CFD is proposing. It isn't logical to say "all Soviet missiles are Cold War missiles so they should be taken out of the Cold War category".
DexDor (
talk) 21:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
This (unlike the Falklands War categories for example) isn't just a "weapons by conflict" category; "
Weapons of the Cold War" can be interpreted as "Weapons introduced during the Cold War period" and indeed the category is in both the "Military equipment by conflict" and "Weapons by period" trees. Currently any articles in the Cold War weapons category should not also be in
Category:Weapons post-1945 as that category would be redundant. Therefore we shouldn't delete Cold War categories without upmerging most/all of the articles to a post-1945 or 20th-century category (incidentally, that overlap needs sorting out as well).
DexDor (
talk) 06:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Hmm. I guess I can see that point - rather like the "Napoleonic period". In that case the category needs to be taken out of "Military equipment by conflict" (which it really shouldn't have been in per se anyway). This particular set of categories though is redundant, as mentioned - and I would argue that upmerging to the post-1945 category (which should be divided from "pre-1945" in the 20th Century as the rocket/missile/jet era weapons are quite distinct from the previous ones) would be better than keeping. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 07:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Upmerging Cold War categories to post-1945 categories is a step we might take in the future, but that should be done separately from this nom which only covers a few of the Cold War categories.
DexDor (
talk) 19:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Merge/Delete per nom. There are not enough from other periods to make this dinstinction worth while.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 00:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep all. The nominator is correct that most of these types of weapon were developed in the Cold War, and that few were developed either before or after that period. However, DexDor correctly observes that unless these categs are merged to multiple targets, they will be removed from some of their parents, which just increases category clutter and impedes maintenance. The Bushranger cites
WP:COMMONSENSE ... but I don't see any
common sense in taking a series of mostly categories containing dozens of articles, and doubling the number of categories in which each article is placed. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 14:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The common sense came from the fact that "all ICBMs are Cold War period weapons" Therefore "ICBMs of the Cold War" is a bit redundant... (I would point out, though, to the nom, that Soviet weapons from 1919-1945 would not be Cold War weapons.) -
The BushrangerOne ping only 07:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
An ICBM is (by definition) a missile with certain characteristics (e.g. range). Having entered service during the Cold War is not part of that definition; the next ICBM type to be fielded by any country (DPRK?) will be an ICBM, but not a Cold War ICBM. Even if we knew there would never be another type of ICBM that's no reason to remove articles (e.g.
R-29 Vysota) from the "weapons by period" tree.
DexDor (
talk) 19:44, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep All The time period that these weapons were developed and introduced is a specifically relevant and defining characteristic appropriate for categorization and an aid to navigation across these articles.
Alansohn (
talk) 19:55, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:LGBT scientists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:withdrawn by nominator. I forgot about the very recent discussion and it's clear that this nomination isn't going to go through.
Mangoe (
talk) 19:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. There appears to be a growing consensus, as expressed in several recent deletion discussions, that many if not most LGBT by occupation categories are not notable intersections. Some subcats of this have already been deleted. It seems to me hard to argue that there is some connection between sexuality and scientific inquiry in general.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:14, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per whatever I said when this was nominated last week.
Rivertorch (
talk) 06:41, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep the nomination rationale is an
WP:OTHERSTUFF invalid argument.
Diego (
talk) 07:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep per MrX. Previous discussion was closed 2 days ago.--В и к и T 10:05, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Withdraw My bad, I forgot about the most recent discussion.
Mangoe (
talk) 11:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Passenger train by highest speed in commercial operations
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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I'm not sure that
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed is workable. While the train may be capable of a certain speed, does it actually operate at that speed? This is the maximum speed that the train can achieve.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
RenameCategory:Passenger trains by speed or perhaps
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed (as Peterkingiron, but with an "s"). Perhaps we should also think about how this is organised - should a 350+ train also be in all the other cats (possibly by nesting the cats) ? or would it be better to have a category ("Passenger trains by speed in kph") where the speed is used as the index (and the cat is limited to >200kph trains) ?
DexDor (
talk) 20:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Category:Skyscrapers by height is how this type of problem is handled for buildings. Keep in mind that these subcategories may well be arbitrary definitions.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Delete as
WP:OC. Not especially defining, and often moot - most of the lines aren't the responsibility of Mussolini, and thus, despite rated speeds, they don't run on time.
-
The BushrangerOne ping only 02:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Reply. That argument might have some traction if we discussing the sub-categories, but the sub-cats are not part of this nomination. The nominated category is a {{
container category}}, and deleting it will isolate the sub-cats. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)reply
...gah, the subcats are even worse. Where's the
WP:TNT when you need it. They absolutely need to go. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 01:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Cart before the horse, Bushie. I would probably support a proposal to delete the subcats. However the subcats are not part of this nom, and so long as they remain, this container cat is needed. If the sub-cats are deleted, this one can be
speedied as empty. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
Neutral on renaming, but oppose deletion. A {{
container category}} should not be simply deleted unless empty; it may be upmerged if that is a better way of organising tings, but deleting it just isolates the subcats. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
That would be classification by an arbitrary definition. So it would not work.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 03:50, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Arbitrary? Not on our part. Description by reliable secondary sources as high-speed could be the standard.
Rivertorch (
talk) 19:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Except "high-speed" varies by country. 150 miles per hour (240 km/h) would be "high-speed" in the United States, but would produce yawns in France and downright impatience in Japan. -
The BushrangerOne ping only 20:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Absolutely right; the term "high-speed" is relative. That's why inclusion would be based on a reliable source describing a train as high-speed, not the actual speed of the train.
Rivertorch (
talk) 09:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)reply
But those reliable sources may well differ by country. So if country A defines it as 100 mph and country B as 250 mph, what determines in a high speed category? By your position a train from country A doing 100 mph would be in a high speed category but a train from country B doing 245 mph would not be. That seems oh so wrong. Also, can you guarantee that this recognized standard will not change in the future? If it does, we would need to review membership in the category. If you do this, a fixed number, which is arbitrary, is clean and simple.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:48, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Weak support for
Category:Passenger trains by operating speed. While I don't agree with this, it is a move to a better name and an improvement over what we are using currently. Sometimes compromise is needed to improve things.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:52, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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