- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to List of Side degree and related bodies to Auxiliary (fraternal orders). MBisanz talk 21:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Side degree
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Unencyclopedic. This list is sourced mainly out of one book (Alan Axelrod's International Encyclopedia of Secret Societies and Fraternal Orders, published in 1997, and the overarching definition is questionable on several levels. The idea is that they aren't major things, but while I can't speak for the non-Masonic groups on the list, the majority of the things claimed to be side degrees are incorporated, independently-run, non-profit organizations (like the Shriners and the Grotto, for example). There were several women's groups listed as well, which I removed because they are not considered "side degrees" for the women. The major ones already have articles. So there's really an issue over whether the content is appropriately encyclopedic - the basic definition is suspect, and we can't have a list based on one source. MSJapan ( talk) 22:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The term "side degree" is also used in other sources, such as Preuss, Arthur, Schmidt, Alvin J. and Stevens, Albert C. Basically the idea is an organization within a larger fraternal organization, originally for humorous effect. I think the Shriners were the original ones within the Masons, but then other fraternal bodies copied the idea.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:41, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree though, it should be reformatted into "List of side degrees".-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:42, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Title should not be changed during the AfD. What are your other plans? Article do seem fine. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't know that was a rule.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 00:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 01:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 01:08, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 01:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Redirectto Double degree - the only use I see for this is as a double degree aka double major, as mention here confirms [1]. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how being in one club while also being in another club is a notable concept. If it's exclusively related to "secret societies" it might be just suitable to mention in the parent article of how they work. —Мандичка YO 😜 04:12, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Double Degree is an academic term. Side Degrees are fraternal orders "clubs within clubs" like the Shriners for Freemasonry. Other groups have developed side degrees like this to and it made sense to me anyway to create a list for them.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC) I suggest Rename to List of side degrees and related bodies - this will clear up the confusion of whether women's groups are side degrees and will more correctly identify the content as a list article.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:28, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- That won't help - it's an even broader category, doesn't address the issue of what a side degree is or isn't, and doesn't address the women's groups, because the women's groups are clearly related to the men's.
MSJapan (
talk) 23:30, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Look I only wanted to make a general list article on side degrees. Womens auxiliaries of side degrees are at least related to them. Do you of an authoritative source for a definition of a side degree.--
Bellerophon5685 (
talk) 17:45, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- And you've cut right to the heart of the problem - you don't have a source defining what is a side degree and what isn't, so you must have engaged in original research to come up with a definition. Nobody is going to put Shriners International, with 191 centers and 23 privately-funded hospitals, in the same category of "side degree" as whatever that Rotary thing was. In the same way, a "ladies auxiliary to a side degree" is a pretty understated definition for an organization with 243 chapters worldwide, such as Ladies Oriental Shrine. It's fine that you thought it was a good idea, but this is an overly vague dump list of everything you could copy out of three books. This is also what happens when the majority of your sources for modern organizations date back to a hundred years ago. MSJapan ( talk) 18:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Look I only wanted to make a general list article on side degrees. Womens auxiliaries of side degrees are at least related to them. Do you of an authoritative source for a definition of a side degree.--
Bellerophon5685 (
talk) 17:45, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Followup on further editing: I have removed the Rotary heading in the article, as Rotary is not a fraternal organization - it is a service organization and doesn't have degrees in the first place. I have also removed the information given by Axelrod on the Shrine; it was incorrect in almost all respects. The Shrine uses a "Middle Eastern" theme, not an "Islamic" one, and the membership requirements claimed have not been true for 15 years. The latter is a matter of timing, but if Axelrod gets a publicly visible organization like the Shrine wrong in basic detail, I'm skeptical of the source. None of the ladies' organizations related to the Shrine are "side degrees" for the women - they are the main organizations, as there is no membership prerequisite for them to join. So aside from the Masonic groups covered elsewhere in greater detail, there are now all of eight entries, most of which are based on one reference in one book. MSJapan ( talk) 17:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
All of which seems to be just so much hair splitting. They are all defined as side degrees. We have a definition from Axelrod, which is a published WP:RS. Some side degrees have larger organizations that other (like the Shriners) but that doesn't mean the other versions of side degrees that exist (or have existed) for fraternal orders or service clubs should be assigned to oblivion. BTW, I think your differentiation of a pseudo-Islamic and Middle Eastern theme is symptomatic of the larger problem. Axelrod rightly states that the Shriners imagery is based on 19th century orientalist misunderstanding of the Islamic/"Near Eastern" world. It is what we would today call cultural appropriation and aspects of it, particularly allowing alcoholic beverages in the "Shrine" would be very offensive to Muslims. But the point is, that is hair-spiting - and I can find other resources that make the same statements about different "appendent degrees". The fact is that most of them have become defunct and only the Shriners still exist as a large organization. Whether one wants to call the womens orders side degrees, appendent orders, etc. is - again - a semantic question.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:56, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
As for not having information on the other orders, I have been busy in grad school the last few months and have not had time to enlarge the entries. -- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:56, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
If you are looking for a list of womens auxiliary groups, I already have a list for them as well, though I have a feeling you will try to have that deleted too. Auxiliary (fraternal orders).-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 17:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Finally the differences between a service club and a fraternal order are vaguely defined on Wikipedia. The Category:Fraternal service organizations includes the Kiwanis, Rotary, Elks and Masons. Some of the service clubs had side degrees like the fraternal orders did.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 17:12, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 08:09, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Merge List of Side degree and related bodies to Auxiliary (fraternal orders), Redirect Side degree - this article's name was changed, but I would still argue that "side degree" is most commonly used as an academic term to mean double degree, as referenced by this usage in the New York Times and by the London School of Economics, which is why I still think side degree should redirect to double degree. I don't see how the most logical definition of side degree is related to clubs within the Shriners, Masons, Girl Scouts or whoever. Personally I think Auxiliary (fraternal orders) is the perfect place for this information, especially considering many of the auxiliary groups are also listed at List of Side degree and related bodies. There is nothing that says auxilliary must be a women's or children's group, but you could also just give the combined article a new title. —Мандичка YO 😜 09:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- That seems appropriate. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 10:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
OK, so have we decided we are going to merge.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to List of Side degree and related bodies to Auxiliary (fraternal orders). MBisanz talk 21:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Side degree
- Side degree ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unencyclopedic. This list is sourced mainly out of one book (Alan Axelrod's International Encyclopedia of Secret Societies and Fraternal Orders, published in 1997, and the overarching definition is questionable on several levels. The idea is that they aren't major things, but while I can't speak for the non-Masonic groups on the list, the majority of the things claimed to be side degrees are incorporated, independently-run, non-profit organizations (like the Shriners and the Grotto, for example). There were several women's groups listed as well, which I removed because they are not considered "side degrees" for the women. The major ones already have articles. So there's really an issue over whether the content is appropriately encyclopedic - the basic definition is suspect, and we can't have a list based on one source. MSJapan ( talk) 22:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The term "side degree" is also used in other sources, such as Preuss, Arthur, Schmidt, Alvin J. and Stevens, Albert C. Basically the idea is an organization within a larger fraternal organization, originally for humorous effect. I think the Shriners were the original ones within the Masons, but then other fraternal bodies copied the idea.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:41, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree though, it should be reformatted into "List of side degrees".-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:42, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Title should not be changed during the AfD. What are your other plans? Article do seem fine. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't know that was a rule.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 00:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 01:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 01:08, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 01:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Redirectto Double degree - the only use I see for this is as a double degree aka double major, as mention here confirms [1]. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how being in one club while also being in another club is a notable concept. If it's exclusively related to "secret societies" it might be just suitable to mention in the parent article of how they work. —Мандичка YO 😜 04:12, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Double Degree is an academic term. Side Degrees are fraternal orders "clubs within clubs" like the Shriners for Freemasonry. Other groups have developed side degrees like this to and it made sense to me anyway to create a list for them.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC) I suggest Rename to List of side degrees and related bodies - this will clear up the confusion of whether women's groups are side degrees and will more correctly identify the content as a list article.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 22:28, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- That won't help - it's an even broader category, doesn't address the issue of what a side degree is or isn't, and doesn't address the women's groups, because the women's groups are clearly related to the men's.
MSJapan (
talk) 23:30, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Look I only wanted to make a general list article on side degrees. Womens auxiliaries of side degrees are at least related to them. Do you of an authoritative source for a definition of a side degree.--
Bellerophon5685 (
talk) 17:45, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- And you've cut right to the heart of the problem - you don't have a source defining what is a side degree and what isn't, so you must have engaged in original research to come up with a definition. Nobody is going to put Shriners International, with 191 centers and 23 privately-funded hospitals, in the same category of "side degree" as whatever that Rotary thing was. In the same way, a "ladies auxiliary to a side degree" is a pretty understated definition for an organization with 243 chapters worldwide, such as Ladies Oriental Shrine. It's fine that you thought it was a good idea, but this is an overly vague dump list of everything you could copy out of three books. This is also what happens when the majority of your sources for modern organizations date back to a hundred years ago. MSJapan ( talk) 18:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Look I only wanted to make a general list article on side degrees. Womens auxiliaries of side degrees are at least related to them. Do you of an authoritative source for a definition of a side degree.--
Bellerophon5685 (
talk) 17:45, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Followup on further editing: I have removed the Rotary heading in the article, as Rotary is not a fraternal organization - it is a service organization and doesn't have degrees in the first place. I have also removed the information given by Axelrod on the Shrine; it was incorrect in almost all respects. The Shrine uses a "Middle Eastern" theme, not an "Islamic" one, and the membership requirements claimed have not been true for 15 years. The latter is a matter of timing, but if Axelrod gets a publicly visible organization like the Shrine wrong in basic detail, I'm skeptical of the source. None of the ladies' organizations related to the Shrine are "side degrees" for the women - they are the main organizations, as there is no membership prerequisite for them to join. So aside from the Masonic groups covered elsewhere in greater detail, there are now all of eight entries, most of which are based on one reference in one book. MSJapan ( talk) 17:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
All of which seems to be just so much hair splitting. They are all defined as side degrees. We have a definition from Axelrod, which is a published WP:RS. Some side degrees have larger organizations that other (like the Shriners) but that doesn't mean the other versions of side degrees that exist (or have existed) for fraternal orders or service clubs should be assigned to oblivion. BTW, I think your differentiation of a pseudo-Islamic and Middle Eastern theme is symptomatic of the larger problem. Axelrod rightly states that the Shriners imagery is based on 19th century orientalist misunderstanding of the Islamic/"Near Eastern" world. It is what we would today call cultural appropriation and aspects of it, particularly allowing alcoholic beverages in the "Shrine" would be very offensive to Muslims. But the point is, that is hair-spiting - and I can find other resources that make the same statements about different "appendent degrees". The fact is that most of them have become defunct and only the Shriners still exist as a large organization. Whether one wants to call the womens orders side degrees, appendent orders, etc. is - again - a semantic question.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:56, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
As for not having information on the other orders, I have been busy in grad school the last few months and have not had time to enlarge the entries. -- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:56, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
If you are looking for a list of womens auxiliary groups, I already have a list for them as well, though I have a feeling you will try to have that deleted too. Auxiliary (fraternal orders).-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 17:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Finally the differences between a service club and a fraternal order are vaguely defined on Wikipedia. The Category:Fraternal service organizations includes the Kiwanis, Rotary, Elks and Masons. Some of the service clubs had side degrees like the fraternal orders did.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 17:12, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 08:09, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Merge List of Side degree and related bodies to Auxiliary (fraternal orders), Redirect Side degree - this article's name was changed, but I would still argue that "side degree" is most commonly used as an academic term to mean double degree, as referenced by this usage in the New York Times and by the London School of Economics, which is why I still think side degree should redirect to double degree. I don't see how the most logical definition of side degree is related to clubs within the Shriners, Masons, Girl Scouts or whoever. Personally I think Auxiliary (fraternal orders) is the perfect place for this information, especially considering many of the auxiliary groups are also listed at List of Side degree and related bodies. There is nothing that says auxilliary must be a women's or children's group, but you could also just give the combined article a new title. —Мандичка YO 😜 09:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- That seems appropriate. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 10:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
OK, so have we decided we are going to merge.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 16:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.