The result was The multiple listing became difficult to manage as the discussion was leading to some being kept and some being deleted. Relisting would not help as that would only increase the potential number of conflicting outcomes. The suggestion to be bold makes sense. Redirect those that are agreed as the least notable, and relist individually those for which there is some doubt.. SilkTork * YES! 14:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC) reply
Nominated with:
WP:NSONG tells us three things relevant to this nomination. First, "[m]ost songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article." Second, songs must must the requirements of WP:GNG, although placement on "national or significant music charts ... [or winning] significant awards or honors" establishes a presumption of notability. And third, even if a song is notable, it should only be treated in a separate article "when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article...."
I like Dream Theater, but our articles on their singles catalog don't meet WP:NSONG's standards for separate articles. Notability is dubious for most, and their content appears to be a mixture of incidental or trivial details about the song, its video, and its release (we learn from Lie, for instance, that the pickups on the guitar played by John Petrucci in the video are green), descriptions of the song's musical structure ( Home and Constant Motion, for instance, tell us about various time signature changes in the songs; readers who know what that means already know about it from listening to the songs, and anyone who doesn't know what it means is unlikely to care), and fancruft (according to Pull Me Under, a poster on the band's drummer's forum "recently stated that the [song's] abrupt ending was inspired by I Want You (She's So Heavy), a track from The Beatles" (internal quotation marks omitted)). Deletion seems appropriate. - Simon Dodd { U· T· C· WP:LAW } 02:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC) reply
The creating editors who are still active on Wikipedia have been notified of this AFD, as have registered editors who have made substantial recent contributions to the articles.- Simon Dodd {
U·
T·
C·
WP:LAW } 02:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
reply
Better source, if not merge, Delete, and Keep. Dream Theater fan as well.
Delete:
Another_Day_(Dream_Theater_song)
Better source, if not merge:
Pull_Me_Under
Delete:
Lie_(Dream_Theater_song) (love the green pickups part :D)
Delete:
The Silent Man
Delete:
Hollow Years
Delete, but mention: in Metropolis Part 2 article,
Through_Her_Eyes
Keep, Better source and improve:
Constant_Motion. Wording should change "thanks to Petrucci's guitar solo."
Weak Keep:
Forsaken_(song)
Delete:
A_Rite_of_Passage
The
Weak
Willed 12:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
reply
Comment: Chart info added for Pull Me Under (#10), Another Day (#22), Take the Time (#29), Lie (#38). I agree that DT has way too many song articles, I even commented on it, but it would appear nothing was ever done. Why every song on Systematic Chaos has a song, and yet none charted is beyond me. Those could probably be added to the list here as well, but the said songs that charted should be kept. black ngold29 15:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC) reply
This thing of deleting articles everywhere makes me sick. I think they should stay where they are, and where they always have been. In Lie, for example, we all know that the pickups are green, but I didn't know it was the Steve Vai signature guitar, a guitar Petrucci never played live, but used only in that video clip. The different time signatures in Constant Motion is something that helps people trying to play the song theirselves. I like Wikipedia because we can always find information about the entire discography of a band, information about the creation process of the songs, CD cover arts... It's a complete source of information. I vote to keep everything the way it is, and if someone isn't happy with the content of the articles, then try to complete it! -- Rodolfostanic ( talk) 18:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC) reply
CD Release Surely it is useful to include any Singles which were given a direct single release or EP of their own, rather than just a promo release. "Another Day", "Lie", "The Silent Man", "Hollow Years", "Through Her Eyes" and "Forsaken" fall into this category. "Rite of Passage" and "Constant Motion" are more dubious as they do have quite widespread promo CD circulation but are not official CD singles, only radio/video/digital. http://www.dreamtheater.net/disco_dreamtheater.php confirms this for older singles by only mentioning those with official CD releases, though for some reason Forsaken EP is not mentioned. As an EP, though, it surely warrants an article as much as "Change of Seasons" does. Information on song construction and video (green pickups!) is probably not useful but surely information on track listings and edits and suchlike are useful for catalogueing one's music. Encyclopedia Metallum ( http://www.metal-archives.com/) contains track info (all that is needed for the articles I think) on not only the commercial singles but also the promotional. This article does, on a related note, also contain info on the ytsejam official bootlegs, which together with information from www.ytsejamrecords.com could surely produce a few useful articles on said official bootlegs. www.dreamtheater.net could do the same along with www.metal-archives.com for the Christmas CDs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Athlon Duster ( talk • contribs) 14:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply
I can't find anything else to add to these articles. For other AfD's you may want to see Category:Dream_Theater_songs. A lot of stuff to cut out there The Weak Willed 17:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply
Comment:
People should create some more useful articles theirselves instead of discussing what articles are "appropriate for deletion" or not. For all the articles cited here, there is significant coverage, most of them ranked on music charts, and there is enough material to make detailed articles. The articles are so detailed that we even know what guitar Petrucci used for the Lie video, and the color of the pickups. Reading Another Day, we can learn that the lyrics are about Petrucci's father. In Take The Time, using the information about the samples at the beggining of the song, I edited myself a very similar intro, so that I can use during my live performances of the song as a keyboard player. This kind of information is useful to the fans, and these articles don't infringe any rules of WP:NSONGS. I don't see why they should be deleted.-- Rodolfostanic ( talk) 18:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply
The result was The multiple listing became difficult to manage as the discussion was leading to some being kept and some being deleted. Relisting would not help as that would only increase the potential number of conflicting outcomes. The suggestion to be bold makes sense. Redirect those that are agreed as the least notable, and relist individually those for which there is some doubt.. SilkTork * YES! 14:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC) reply
Nominated with:
WP:NSONG tells us three things relevant to this nomination. First, "[m]ost songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article." Second, songs must must the requirements of WP:GNG, although placement on "national or significant music charts ... [or winning] significant awards or honors" establishes a presumption of notability. And third, even if a song is notable, it should only be treated in a separate article "when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article...."
I like Dream Theater, but our articles on their singles catalog don't meet WP:NSONG's standards for separate articles. Notability is dubious for most, and their content appears to be a mixture of incidental or trivial details about the song, its video, and its release (we learn from Lie, for instance, that the pickups on the guitar played by John Petrucci in the video are green), descriptions of the song's musical structure ( Home and Constant Motion, for instance, tell us about various time signature changes in the songs; readers who know what that means already know about it from listening to the songs, and anyone who doesn't know what it means is unlikely to care), and fancruft (according to Pull Me Under, a poster on the band's drummer's forum "recently stated that the [song's] abrupt ending was inspired by I Want You (She's So Heavy), a track from The Beatles" (internal quotation marks omitted)). Deletion seems appropriate. - Simon Dodd { U· T· C· WP:LAW } 02:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC) reply
The creating editors who are still active on Wikipedia have been notified of this AFD, as have registered editors who have made substantial recent contributions to the articles.- Simon Dodd {
U·
T·
C·
WP:LAW } 02:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
reply
Better source, if not merge, Delete, and Keep. Dream Theater fan as well.
Delete:
Another_Day_(Dream_Theater_song)
Better source, if not merge:
Pull_Me_Under
Delete:
Lie_(Dream_Theater_song) (love the green pickups part :D)
Delete:
The Silent Man
Delete:
Hollow Years
Delete, but mention: in Metropolis Part 2 article,
Through_Her_Eyes
Keep, Better source and improve:
Constant_Motion. Wording should change "thanks to Petrucci's guitar solo."
Weak Keep:
Forsaken_(song)
Delete:
A_Rite_of_Passage
The
Weak
Willed 12:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
reply
Comment: Chart info added for Pull Me Under (#10), Another Day (#22), Take the Time (#29), Lie (#38). I agree that DT has way too many song articles, I even commented on it, but it would appear nothing was ever done. Why every song on Systematic Chaos has a song, and yet none charted is beyond me. Those could probably be added to the list here as well, but the said songs that charted should be kept. black ngold29 15:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC) reply
This thing of deleting articles everywhere makes me sick. I think they should stay where they are, and where they always have been. In Lie, for example, we all know that the pickups are green, but I didn't know it was the Steve Vai signature guitar, a guitar Petrucci never played live, but used only in that video clip. The different time signatures in Constant Motion is something that helps people trying to play the song theirselves. I like Wikipedia because we can always find information about the entire discography of a band, information about the creation process of the songs, CD cover arts... It's a complete source of information. I vote to keep everything the way it is, and if someone isn't happy with the content of the articles, then try to complete it! -- Rodolfostanic ( talk) 18:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC) reply
CD Release Surely it is useful to include any Singles which were given a direct single release or EP of their own, rather than just a promo release. "Another Day", "Lie", "The Silent Man", "Hollow Years", "Through Her Eyes" and "Forsaken" fall into this category. "Rite of Passage" and "Constant Motion" are more dubious as they do have quite widespread promo CD circulation but are not official CD singles, only radio/video/digital. http://www.dreamtheater.net/disco_dreamtheater.php confirms this for older singles by only mentioning those with official CD releases, though for some reason Forsaken EP is not mentioned. As an EP, though, it surely warrants an article as much as "Change of Seasons" does. Information on song construction and video (green pickups!) is probably not useful but surely information on track listings and edits and suchlike are useful for catalogueing one's music. Encyclopedia Metallum ( http://www.metal-archives.com/) contains track info (all that is needed for the articles I think) on not only the commercial singles but also the promotional. This article does, on a related note, also contain info on the ytsejam official bootlegs, which together with information from www.ytsejamrecords.com could surely produce a few useful articles on said official bootlegs. www.dreamtheater.net could do the same along with www.metal-archives.com for the Christmas CDs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Athlon Duster ( talk • contribs) 14:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply
I can't find anything else to add to these articles. For other AfD's you may want to see Category:Dream_Theater_songs. A lot of stuff to cut out there The Weak Willed 17:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply
Comment:
People should create some more useful articles theirselves instead of discussing what articles are "appropriate for deletion" or not. For all the articles cited here, there is significant coverage, most of them ranked on music charts, and there is enough material to make detailed articles. The articles are so detailed that we even know what guitar Petrucci used for the Lie video, and the color of the pickups. Reading Another Day, we can learn that the lyrics are about Petrucci's father. In Take The Time, using the information about the samples at the beggining of the song, I edited myself a very similar intro, so that I can use during my live performances of the song as a keyboard player. This kind of information is useful to the fans, and these articles don't infringe any rules of WP:NSONGS. I don't see why they should be deleted.-- Rodolfostanic ( talk) 18:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC) reply