- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Going with the keeps to allow for them to improve, expand and grow this article with the "exhaustive" citations that supposedly exist.
Also, in the future, please keep it civil in deletion discussions.
Thanks everyone for participating. Unhappy with this decision? If one wishes to renominate this article with another policy-based rationale, they are able to do so. I will defer to other administrators to review it. I will not re-review my decision. Happy holidays. Missvain ( talk) 00:28, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Makhtumkala
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- Makhtumkala ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Not finding anything (legal recognition or GNG) to establish notability aside from the single travel guide entry that's cited. Coordinates may be off, since there doesn't seem to be a village at this location. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkmenistan-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strong keep - The travel guide is by Paul Brummell, former British Ambassador to Turkmenistan and that he found the village worthy of an entire paragraph is an indicator of notability in itself.Sources concerning Turkmenistan are in Russian/Turkmen and shall not be expected to be found online. This is a result of systemic bias as well as censorship practices of Govt. of Turkmenistan — for example, their National Library does not have any presence in internet! It is for the former reasons, that we presume populated, legally recognized places to be notable, even if their population is very low. I do not assume the nominator to be proficient in Turkmen to know where to search for "legal recognition." [Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages.] These are the coordinates of Makhtumkala (var. Magtymgala) and I cannot be held responsible for a (rogue) bot. This news-article from Turkmenistan Government discusses the settlement and the mausoleum in significant detail. I am yet to start listing offline sources including archaeological reports on the mausoleum - stop wasting my time. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:23, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- TrangaBellam, I'm confused by your "stop wasting my time" comment. If you created an article based on a single travel guide source, then surely you either had sufficient sourcing on hand to establish notability (3 reliable sources is a general rule of thumb) or planned to add it in the near future. How is anyone wasting your time by asking you to do something that you were going to do anyway? Were you expecting others to do this work for you? – dlthewave ☎ 17:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- Further,
andМАГТЫМГАЛА - [..] Кака районында магтымларың яшаян обасы, гала [..]
— Атаныязов, Солтанша (1970). Туркменистаның географик атларынын душундиришли сѳзлуги [Toponym Dictionary of Turkmenistan]. Ashgabat: Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences. p. 201.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 12:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)In West Kopetdagh in the 1970s, leopards were spotted in [..] next to the village of Makhtumkala in the Sumbar Valley (June 1976, one adult) [..]
— Rustamov, Anver K.; Sopyev, Ovez (1994). Fet, Victor; Atamuradov, Khabibulla I. (eds.). Vertebrates in the Red Data Book of Turkmenistan. Monographiae Biologicae. Dordrecht: Springer Netherlands. p. 208. doi: 10.1007/978-94-011-1116-4_13. ISBN 978-94-011-1116-4.{{ cite book}}:|work=ignored ( help)
- Comment TrangaBellam, ill-feeling could be avoided if you'd incubated this article in draft-space until after you'd finished listing the offline sources. It is reasonable for someone to bring it here if they consider it inadequately supported, and if they cannot find sources themselves, even if there are political reasons why those sources are hard to find. I'd therefore suggest draftifying until you and/or others have completed the work. Elemimele ( talk) 10:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
and if they cannot find sources themselves
- WP:CIR. The editor has been nominating tens of articles from different geographical regions in the belief that they violate GEOLAND - it is impossible that someone will be competent enough to ascertain legal status of territories in so many countries and such a bull-in-the-chinashop approach is only indicative of hubris. TrangaBellam ( talk) 11:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - TrangaBellam has identified only passing mentions of the location. What is required for a WP:GEOLAND#1 pass is evidence of legal recognition, but no evidence of that is provided here. Similarly a pass under WP:GNG requires significant coverage in multiple sources, but again there is no such evidence provided here.
- There seems to be a misunderstanding here that any populated place is notable: this is not the case.
Wikipedia is not a gazetteer, it does not include articles on localities with no legal recognition and about which no encyclopaedic article can be written. The entire point of what we are trying to achieve here is that we are supposed to be writing encyclopaedia articles,
not directory listings.
FOARP (
talk) 19:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I had linked to a
pdf about legally recognized places. Did
you read that or do you expect me to read it for you? Maybe, teach you Turkmen language? You wish to claim that the
Government of Turkmenistan is ignorant about its own villages when it
describes the settlement and the mausoleum in five paragraphs? Or, that the Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences is similarly ignorant? Wow.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 19:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Wow indeed. You posted
a 404 link (to openstreetmap.org . . . ). Maybe lessons in HTML and
Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources are called for? Or since
the Turkmenistan govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all, a lesson in reading? And since this is a government website pitched to tourists, a lesson in what an independent source actually is? Followed by a lesson in how to discuss things on the internet?
FOARP (
talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Does
this link work for you? Since you have some inability in reading English, let me quote the passage:
It might be new knowledge to you that there is no independent media or scholarship in Turkmenistan. Almost everything that you will ever have on post-independent Turkmenistan will be either sourced to Turkmenistan Government and scholars affiliated to them (either directly or via various missions) or travel guides by former diplomats. Concerning politics etc, you have some Moscow based specialists. Of the few western scholars—Victoria Clement, Slavomir Horak et al—who specialize on the country, none has been allowed access to the State Archives despite intense diplomatic efforts and that says something. Now, it is your call whether you want to start nuking 80% content belonging to Wikiproject Turkmenistan or apply common sense. TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)Modest mausoleum called by native people as Magtym – mayazem stands alone in the Sumbar river valley near Magtymgala settlement. In translation from Arabic, “mahdum” (magsym) means “master” and “myaezem” means “great”. The mausoleum was built in honour of holy patron of magtyms, whose name occupies seventy-eight position in the chain from Adam where Prophet Mohammed is on forty-nine place. People used to call him Mahzum Agzam or Imam Agzam as it was forbidden to say own name of powerful and respected representative of Sufi clergy.
However, it is known that he was born in Gorgan two hundred years after Mongolian invasion and was not only Sufi by birth but also passed judgement for 10 years while being ruler of his velayat in the interfluve of Atrek and Gorgan rivers. The Holy man died in XV century and was buried at place of mausoleum, the legend says that white camel carrying the corpse of deceased has stopped and laid down there, much probably, following his will to inter him in certain place. Close disciples and associates of Magtym Myaezem considered stop of camel as a sign.
There were three attempts to build mausoleum on top of the grave but all of them ended up feebly. Another attempt was undertaken in XVI century and as it mentioned in one of the manuscripts of genealogy, it was organized by Seyitguly – sopy, rahmanguly – sultan and Temirbeg – yuzbashy, Musa Bin Abu Muhammed from Isfahan was an architect.
Uniqueness of modest looking mausoleum is that it resembles some of famous monuments of XV century by its planning composition. Entrance portal peshtak with vaulted niche dominates on main façade; there are smaller arched niches in two rows on both side of it.
Two spiral staircases inside the walls lead to miniature balconies and the roof. Cruciform hall is covered by double-layer dome based on shield - shaped pendentives, which are decorated by gunch plaster. Looking at the dome while standing in the centre of the hall, one can see that its edges make sixteen points star.
The Magtym Mausoleum has entered the history of national architecture as sample of classic constructive forms.
- A search for МАГТЫМГАЛА in that document brings up no hits, so we're still where we were. Quoting from a tourist website (i.e., essentially an advert) does not substantiate notability. I have no problem with deleting poorly-sourced non-notable Geostubs en masse, regardless of what country they apply to.
User:FOARP (
talk) 20:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I cannot speak a lick of Turkmen, but when I search for Magtymg-, I get multiple hits. Google Translate's limited Turkmen-English translation capabilities mention that it's next to words like village. I'm not sure if this is what it refers to, but I can't tell what else it could be. But it does make me wonder why the article name is Makhtumkala instead of Magtymgala. Dege31 ( talk) 19:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Search better. Till now, you were stating that the
govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all.
Now you are proposing that the government source describing the village and associated mausoleum be discounted because it is an advertisement? - How did you ascertain it to be a
tourist website
? The website is of "Altyn Asyr", mouthpiece of the National news agency. TrangaBellam ( talk)
- A search for МАГТЫМГАЛА in that document brings up no hits, so we're still where we were. Quoting from a tourist website (i.e., essentially an advert) does not substantiate notability. I have no problem with deleting poorly-sourced non-notable Geostubs en masse, regardless of what country they apply to.
User:FOARP (
talk) 20:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- (
edit conflict)You want more "legal recognition?"
Even more?Sany we onuň üýtgemek ýagdaýy [of ÇYPAR AGŞAMÇYSY]: Ýary-ganatlaryň ýek‑tüki Magtymgala oba-synda (Sumbar jülgesi) [...]
Number and tendencies to change [of COMMON NOCTULE]: Single occurrences were registered in Magtymgala village (on Sumbar river) [...]
— Atayev, K; Kokanova, E., eds. (2011). The Red Data Book of Turkmenistan. Vol. 2: Invertebrate and Vertebrate Animals (3 ed.). Ashgabat: Ministry of Nature Protection, Government of Turkmenistan. p. 314.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)Gerkez obasynda, 10 kilometr Gündogarda Magtymgala obasy ýerleşýär. Obada XIV asyrdan galan ýadygärlik Magtym Mäzemiň aramgähi seleňläp dur. Rowaýatlara görä, bu mawzoleý ozallar türkmeniň magtymlar tiresiniň keramatly şyhynyň aramgähimiş. Aramgähde 3-4 sany mazar bar. Geçen asyryň ortalaryna çenli aramgähiň içinde arça agajyndan ýasalan uly sandyk bardy. Şol sandyk kitapdan doly eken. Ol kitaplar soň ýok edilipdir. Aramgähiň çep tarapyndaky uly gaýanyň üstünde ir döwürlerden galan galanyň sudurlary bar. Şol obaly ýaşuly Öwezberdi aganyň aýtmagyna görä, bu gala hem berk goralýan, barmasy aňsat bolmadyk bir dagyň üstünde ýerleşipdir. Muny basybalyjylar şunça synanyşsalar-da, alyp bilmändirler. Her çozuşa galanyň ilaty berk gaýtawul bermegi başarypdyr. Galanyň töwereklerinde, Sumbar jülgesiniň ugurlaryna ekin ekipdirler, mal bakypdyrlar.Ýagy çozan mahalynda bolsa, hemmesi gala ýygnanar ekenler. Galada juda köp adam bolupdyr. Ätiýaçlyk suwlary gutaranda olar Sumbardan dürli suw gaplarda suw alyp, hatara durup, bir-biriniň eline berip, galadaky daşdan howza guýar ekenler. Gaýra ýurtly bir kerwen mydama şu gala gelip, söwda-satyk edip, iküç gün dynç alar eken. Şeýdip, ol kerwen galanyň hanynyň, ilatynyň ynamyna girýär. Olar gije gelse-de, eglenmän, dogry gala goýberer ekenler. Bir gezek ol söwda etmäge gaýdanynda, ýurt görer diýip, öz oglunam ýany bilen alyp gaýdýar. Gelşine-de eglenmän, gala girýär. Dynç alanyndan soňra geçip gidýär. Onuň ogluny alyp gelendigini bilen duşmanlar oglanjygy alyp, söwdagäriň öňünde: «Bize şol gala girmek üçin ýol tapyp ber, bolmasa-da ogluňy öldüreris» diýýärler. Täjir kerweni bilen gijäniň bir wagty gelip, galanyň derwezesini kakýar. Derweze açylanda, duşmanlar gala girip, galanyň ilatyny gyrýarlar. Ogly olja, gyzy ýesir edýärler. Şondan soň, ol gala öňki kaddyna gelip dikelmändir. Bu oba Magtymgala diýen adyň, bu ýerde iňňän ir döwürlerden bäri «magtymlar» tiresiniň ýaşanlygyndan galan bolmagy mümkindir. Galanyň Gündogar we Günbatar taraplarynda birki metrden beýik bolmadyk daşlardan gurulan diwarlaryň galyndylary henizlerem bar.
— "Geçmişiň gözli şaýatlary". serhetabat-dovletabat.gov.tm. Retrieved 2021-12-05.- Page FOARP. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Does
this link work for you? Since you have some inability in reading English, let me quote the passage:
- Wow indeed. You posted
a 404 link (to openstreetmap.org . . . ). Maybe lessons in HTML and
Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources are called for? Or since
the Turkmenistan govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all, a lesson in reading? And since this is a government website pitched to tourists, a lesson in what an independent source actually is? Followed by a lesson in how to discuss things on the internet?
FOARP (
talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I had linked to a
pdf about legally recognized places. Did
you read that or do you expect me to read it for you? Maybe, teach you Turkmen language? You wish to claim that the
Government of Turkmenistan is ignorant about its own villages when it
describes the settlement and the mausoleum in five paragraphs? Or, that the Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences is similarly ignorant? Wow.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 19:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein 08:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One more round, please. It would be great to have some fresh eyes on this that aren't involved in the article itself.
Also please keep it civil.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Missvain (
talk) 16:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Draftify The article is a stub. The notability is questionable, and were it not for
WP:NPLACE's option for legal recognition there would be little else showing significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The Apologies to
TrangaBellam but that's how it appears to my eyes. Suggest moving it to Draft space where improvements can be made, including providing a robust source for the legal registration, and hopefully some further interesting facts about the place and its history, economy, transport, wildlife and people, all backed up by lovely, lovely, cited sources.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
-
Chumpih, independent of the subject? If you are pointing at non-govt. sources, you won't get any: media is controlled by Turkmen Government directly (or indirectly). Robust sources: if Government publications mentioning it as a village are not robust, I don't know what it is.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 21:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well, as independent as possible. Once in Draft space this can be brought up to spec, then go through appropriate review via AfC.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- You need to give definite arguments; not handwave at policies and claim violations. What is
as independent as possible
? What are the specs? I have cited at-least three sources which devote more than a paragraph to the village and the mausoleum - why do you feel that they fail to establish WP:N? Draftspace is not a IDONTLIKEIT junkyard. TrangaBellam ( talk) 21:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)- My suggestion is made. Chumpih. ( talk) 21:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- OK, how about going for
WP:THREE. Please reply with the very best 3 sources, all working, non 404ing. Optionally provide them via a translation service. Please don't copy-and-paste the contents. Just 3 URLs that satisfy
WP:GNG for Makhtumkala.
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- GEOLAND do not require a GNG pass. That being said, consult the article for the sources?
TrangaBellam (
talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, per
WP:NPLACE there needs to be legal recognition or satisfy
WP:GNG. What source shows legal recognition?
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- It is your claim that sources authored by Turkmenistan government noting it to be a village in their publications do not make it one? Or is it your claim that individual villages are not recognized in Turkmenistan? Or is it your claim that I am yet to provide any source from Turkmenistan Government noting the subject to be a village?
- As I wrote at the outset,
Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages.
They haven't conducted a census since '95 - so you won't be getting fancy tables etc. TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)- It's probably the first. And therein lies the issue. The fact that something gets a mention in some decree or brochure might not necessarily give it legal recognition. The slippery slope argument would cry: "every property address mentioned in every court case could end up with its own wiki page". There has to be some threshold - some definition for legal recognition. Do we know of any?
- That said, the additional citations that today appeared in the article help with
WP:GNG.
Chumpih. (
talk) 18:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Good luck convincing others. The sources were already cited in this AfD but whatever. Please have the last word. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, per
WP:NPLACE there needs to be legal recognition or satisfy
WP:GNG. What source shows legal recognition?
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- GEOLAND do not require a GNG pass. That being said, consult the article for the sources?
TrangaBellam (
talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- You need to give definite arguments; not handwave at policies and claim violations. What is
- Well, as independent as possible. Once in Draft space this can be brought up to spec, then go through appropriate review via AfC.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
-
Chumpih, independent of the subject? If you are pointing at non-govt. sources, you won't get any: media is controlled by Turkmen Government directly (or indirectly). Robust sources: if Government publications mentioning it as a village are not robust, I don't know what it is.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 21:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. I am convinced by the arguments and sourcing that it is a recognised settlement and therefore passes
WP:GEOLAND. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 08:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- @
Necrothesp: For the sake of clarity, which particular source showing legal recognition did you find convincing?
Chumpih. (
talk) 12:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Those cited above by TrangaBellam. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- @
Necrothesp: For the sake of clarity, which particular source showing legal recognition did you find convincing?
Chumpih. (
talk) 12:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - adequately sourced as it stands - no need for draftification. There is no ban on stubs - articles don't have to start as, umm, Start class. I must also comment that in my view the treatment of TrangaBellam above, who there is no reason to doubt is a GF editor, is coming close to bullying. Ingratis ( talk) 17:09, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Going with the keeps to allow for them to improve, expand and grow this article with the "exhaustive" citations that supposedly exist.
Also, in the future, please keep it civil in deletion discussions.
Thanks everyone for participating. Unhappy with this decision? If one wishes to renominate this article with another policy-based rationale, they are able to do so. I will defer to other administrators to review it. I will not re-review my decision. Happy holidays. Missvain ( talk) 00:28, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Makhtumkala
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Makhtumkala ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not finding anything (legal recognition or GNG) to establish notability aside from the single travel guide entry that's cited. Coordinates may be off, since there doesn't seem to be a village at this location. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkmenistan-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strong keep - The travel guide is by Paul Brummell, former British Ambassador to Turkmenistan and that he found the village worthy of an entire paragraph is an indicator of notability in itself.Sources concerning Turkmenistan are in Russian/Turkmen and shall not be expected to be found online. This is a result of systemic bias as well as censorship practices of Govt. of Turkmenistan — for example, their National Library does not have any presence in internet! It is for the former reasons, that we presume populated, legally recognized places to be notable, even if their population is very low. I do not assume the nominator to be proficient in Turkmen to know where to search for "legal recognition." [Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages.] These are the coordinates of Makhtumkala (var. Magtymgala) and I cannot be held responsible for a (rogue) bot. This news-article from Turkmenistan Government discusses the settlement and the mausoleum in significant detail. I am yet to start listing offline sources including archaeological reports on the mausoleum - stop wasting my time. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:23, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- TrangaBellam, I'm confused by your "stop wasting my time" comment. If you created an article based on a single travel guide source, then surely you either had sufficient sourcing on hand to establish notability (3 reliable sources is a general rule of thumb) or planned to add it in the near future. How is anyone wasting your time by asking you to do something that you were going to do anyway? Were you expecting others to do this work for you? – dlthewave ☎ 17:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- Further,
andМАГТЫМГАЛА - [..] Кака районында магтымларың яшаян обасы, гала [..]
— Атаныязов, Солтанша (1970). Туркменистаның географик атларынын душундиришли сѳзлуги [Toponym Dictionary of Turkmenistan]. Ashgabat: Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences. p. 201.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 12:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)In West Kopetdagh in the 1970s, leopards were spotted in [..] next to the village of Makhtumkala in the Sumbar Valley (June 1976, one adult) [..]
— Rustamov, Anver K.; Sopyev, Ovez (1994). Fet, Victor; Atamuradov, Khabibulla I. (eds.). Vertebrates in the Red Data Book of Turkmenistan. Monographiae Biologicae. Dordrecht: Springer Netherlands. p. 208. doi: 10.1007/978-94-011-1116-4_13. ISBN 978-94-011-1116-4.{{ cite book}}:|work=ignored ( help)
- Comment TrangaBellam, ill-feeling could be avoided if you'd incubated this article in draft-space until after you'd finished listing the offline sources. It is reasonable for someone to bring it here if they consider it inadequately supported, and if they cannot find sources themselves, even if there are political reasons why those sources are hard to find. I'd therefore suggest draftifying until you and/or others have completed the work. Elemimele ( talk) 10:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
and if they cannot find sources themselves
- WP:CIR. The editor has been nominating tens of articles from different geographical regions in the belief that they violate GEOLAND - it is impossible that someone will be competent enough to ascertain legal status of territories in so many countries and such a bull-in-the-chinashop approach is only indicative of hubris. TrangaBellam ( talk) 11:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - TrangaBellam has identified only passing mentions of the location. What is required for a WP:GEOLAND#1 pass is evidence of legal recognition, but no evidence of that is provided here. Similarly a pass under WP:GNG requires significant coverage in multiple sources, but again there is no such evidence provided here.
- There seems to be a misunderstanding here that any populated place is notable: this is not the case.
Wikipedia is not a gazetteer, it does not include articles on localities with no legal recognition and about which no encyclopaedic article can be written. The entire point of what we are trying to achieve here is that we are supposed to be writing encyclopaedia articles,
not directory listings.
FOARP (
talk) 19:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I had linked to a
pdf about legally recognized places. Did
you read that or do you expect me to read it for you? Maybe, teach you Turkmen language? You wish to claim that the
Government of Turkmenistan is ignorant about its own villages when it
describes the settlement and the mausoleum in five paragraphs? Or, that the Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences is similarly ignorant? Wow.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 19:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Wow indeed. You posted
a 404 link (to openstreetmap.org . . . ). Maybe lessons in HTML and
Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources are called for? Or since
the Turkmenistan govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all, a lesson in reading? And since this is a government website pitched to tourists, a lesson in what an independent source actually is? Followed by a lesson in how to discuss things on the internet?
FOARP (
talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- Does
this link work for you? Since you have some inability in reading English, let me quote the passage:
It might be new knowledge to you that there is no independent media or scholarship in Turkmenistan. Almost everything that you will ever have on post-independent Turkmenistan will be either sourced to Turkmenistan Government and scholars affiliated to them (either directly or via various missions) or travel guides by former diplomats. Concerning politics etc, you have some Moscow based specialists. Of the few western scholars—Victoria Clement, Slavomir Horak et al—who specialize on the country, none has been allowed access to the State Archives despite intense diplomatic efforts and that says something. Now, it is your call whether you want to start nuking 80% content belonging to Wikiproject Turkmenistan or apply common sense. TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)Modest mausoleum called by native people as Magtym – mayazem stands alone in the Sumbar river valley near Magtymgala settlement. In translation from Arabic, “mahdum” (magsym) means “master” and “myaezem” means “great”. The mausoleum was built in honour of holy patron of magtyms, whose name occupies seventy-eight position in the chain from Adam where Prophet Mohammed is on forty-nine place. People used to call him Mahzum Agzam or Imam Agzam as it was forbidden to say own name of powerful and respected representative of Sufi clergy.
However, it is known that he was born in Gorgan two hundred years after Mongolian invasion and was not only Sufi by birth but also passed judgement for 10 years while being ruler of his velayat in the interfluve of Atrek and Gorgan rivers. The Holy man died in XV century and was buried at place of mausoleum, the legend says that white camel carrying the corpse of deceased has stopped and laid down there, much probably, following his will to inter him in certain place. Close disciples and associates of Magtym Myaezem considered stop of camel as a sign.
There were three attempts to build mausoleum on top of the grave but all of them ended up feebly. Another attempt was undertaken in XVI century and as it mentioned in one of the manuscripts of genealogy, it was organized by Seyitguly – sopy, rahmanguly – sultan and Temirbeg – yuzbashy, Musa Bin Abu Muhammed from Isfahan was an architect.
Uniqueness of modest looking mausoleum is that it resembles some of famous monuments of XV century by its planning composition. Entrance portal peshtak with vaulted niche dominates on main façade; there are smaller arched niches in two rows on both side of it.
Two spiral staircases inside the walls lead to miniature balconies and the roof. Cruciform hall is covered by double-layer dome based on shield - shaped pendentives, which are decorated by gunch plaster. Looking at the dome while standing in the centre of the hall, one can see that its edges make sixteen points star.
The Magtym Mausoleum has entered the history of national architecture as sample of classic constructive forms.
- A search for МАГТЫМГАЛА in that document brings up no hits, so we're still where we were. Quoting from a tourist website (i.e., essentially an advert) does not substantiate notability. I have no problem with deleting poorly-sourced non-notable Geostubs en masse, regardless of what country they apply to.
User:FOARP (
talk) 20:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I cannot speak a lick of Turkmen, but when I search for Magtymg-, I get multiple hits. Google Translate's limited Turkmen-English translation capabilities mention that it's next to words like village. I'm not sure if this is what it refers to, but I can't tell what else it could be. But it does make me wonder why the article name is Makhtumkala instead of Magtymgala. Dege31 ( talk) 19:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Search better. Till now, you were stating that the
govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all.
Now you are proposing that the government source describing the village and associated mausoleum be discounted because it is an advertisement? - How did you ascertain it to be a
tourist website
? The website is of "Altyn Asyr", mouthpiece of the National news agency. TrangaBellam ( talk)
- A search for МАГТЫМГАЛА in that document brings up no hits, so we're still where we were. Quoting from a tourist website (i.e., essentially an advert) does not substantiate notability. I have no problem with deleting poorly-sourced non-notable Geostubs en masse, regardless of what country they apply to.
User:FOARP (
talk) 20:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- (
edit conflict)You want more "legal recognition?"
Even more?Sany we onuň üýtgemek ýagdaýy [of ÇYPAR AGŞAMÇYSY]: Ýary-ganatlaryň ýek‑tüki Magtymgala oba-synda (Sumbar jülgesi) [...]
Number and tendencies to change [of COMMON NOCTULE]: Single occurrences were registered in Magtymgala village (on Sumbar river) [...]
— Atayev, K; Kokanova, E., eds. (2011). The Red Data Book of Turkmenistan. Vol. 2: Invertebrate and Vertebrate Animals (3 ed.). Ashgabat: Ministry of Nature Protection, Government of Turkmenistan. p. 314.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)Gerkez obasynda, 10 kilometr Gündogarda Magtymgala obasy ýerleşýär. Obada XIV asyrdan galan ýadygärlik Magtym Mäzemiň aramgähi seleňläp dur. Rowaýatlara görä, bu mawzoleý ozallar türkmeniň magtymlar tiresiniň keramatly şyhynyň aramgähimiş. Aramgähde 3-4 sany mazar bar. Geçen asyryň ortalaryna çenli aramgähiň içinde arça agajyndan ýasalan uly sandyk bardy. Şol sandyk kitapdan doly eken. Ol kitaplar soň ýok edilipdir. Aramgähiň çep tarapyndaky uly gaýanyň üstünde ir döwürlerden galan galanyň sudurlary bar. Şol obaly ýaşuly Öwezberdi aganyň aýtmagyna görä, bu gala hem berk goralýan, barmasy aňsat bolmadyk bir dagyň üstünde ýerleşipdir. Muny basybalyjylar şunça synanyşsalar-da, alyp bilmändirler. Her çozuşa galanyň ilaty berk gaýtawul bermegi başarypdyr. Galanyň töwereklerinde, Sumbar jülgesiniň ugurlaryna ekin ekipdirler, mal bakypdyrlar.Ýagy çozan mahalynda bolsa, hemmesi gala ýygnanar ekenler. Galada juda köp adam bolupdyr. Ätiýaçlyk suwlary gutaranda olar Sumbardan dürli suw gaplarda suw alyp, hatara durup, bir-biriniň eline berip, galadaky daşdan howza guýar ekenler. Gaýra ýurtly bir kerwen mydama şu gala gelip, söwda-satyk edip, iküç gün dynç alar eken. Şeýdip, ol kerwen galanyň hanynyň, ilatynyň ynamyna girýär. Olar gije gelse-de, eglenmän, dogry gala goýberer ekenler. Bir gezek ol söwda etmäge gaýdanynda, ýurt görer diýip, öz oglunam ýany bilen alyp gaýdýar. Gelşine-de eglenmän, gala girýär. Dynç alanyndan soňra geçip gidýär. Onuň ogluny alyp gelendigini bilen duşmanlar oglanjygy alyp, söwdagäriň öňünde: «Bize şol gala girmek üçin ýol tapyp ber, bolmasa-da ogluňy öldüreris» diýýärler. Täjir kerweni bilen gijäniň bir wagty gelip, galanyň derwezesini kakýar. Derweze açylanda, duşmanlar gala girip, galanyň ilatyny gyrýarlar. Ogly olja, gyzy ýesir edýärler. Şondan soň, ol gala öňki kaddyna gelip dikelmändir. Bu oba Magtymgala diýen adyň, bu ýerde iňňän ir döwürlerden bäri «magtymlar» tiresiniň ýaşanlygyndan galan bolmagy mümkindir. Galanyň Gündogar we Günbatar taraplarynda birki metrden beýik bolmadyk daşlardan gurulan diwarlaryň galyndylary henizlerem bar.
— "Geçmişiň gözli şaýatlary". serhetabat-dovletabat.gov.tm. Retrieved 2021-12-05.- Page FOARP. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Does
this link work for you? Since you have some inability in reading English, let me quote the passage:
- Wow indeed. You posted
a 404 link (to openstreetmap.org . . . ). Maybe lessons in HTML and
Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources are called for? Or since
the Turkmenistan govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all, a lesson in reading? And since this is a government website pitched to tourists, a lesson in what an independent source actually is? Followed by a lesson in how to discuss things on the internet?
FOARP (
talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
- I had linked to a
pdf about legally recognized places. Did
you read that or do you expect me to read it for you? Maybe, teach you Turkmen language? You wish to claim that the
Government of Turkmenistan is ignorant about its own villages when it
describes the settlement and the mausoleum in five paragraphs? Or, that the Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences is similarly ignorant? Wow.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 19:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein 08:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One more round, please. It would be great to have some fresh eyes on this that aren't involved in the article itself.
Also please keep it civil.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Missvain (
talk) 16:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Draftify The article is a stub. The notability is questionable, and were it not for
WP:NPLACE's option for legal recognition there would be little else showing significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The Apologies to
TrangaBellam but that's how it appears to my eyes. Suggest moving it to Draft space where improvements can be made, including providing a robust source for the legal registration, and hopefully some further interesting facts about the place and its history, economy, transport, wildlife and people, all backed up by lovely, lovely, cited sources.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
-
Chumpih, independent of the subject? If you are pointing at non-govt. sources, you won't get any: media is controlled by Turkmen Government directly (or indirectly). Robust sources: if Government publications mentioning it as a village are not robust, I don't know what it is.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 21:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well, as independent as possible. Once in Draft space this can be brought up to spec, then go through appropriate review via AfC.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- You need to give definite arguments; not handwave at policies and claim violations. What is
as independent as possible
? What are the specs? I have cited at-least three sources which devote more than a paragraph to the village and the mausoleum - why do you feel that they fail to establish WP:N? Draftspace is not a IDONTLIKEIT junkyard. TrangaBellam ( talk) 21:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)- My suggestion is made. Chumpih. ( talk) 21:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- OK, how about going for
WP:THREE. Please reply with the very best 3 sources, all working, non 404ing. Optionally provide them via a translation service. Please don't copy-and-paste the contents. Just 3 URLs that satisfy
WP:GNG for Makhtumkala.
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- GEOLAND do not require a GNG pass. That being said, consult the article for the sources?
TrangaBellam (
talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, per
WP:NPLACE there needs to be legal recognition or satisfy
WP:GNG. What source shows legal recognition?
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- It is your claim that sources authored by Turkmenistan government noting it to be a village in their publications do not make it one? Or is it your claim that individual villages are not recognized in Turkmenistan? Or is it your claim that I am yet to provide any source from Turkmenistan Government noting the subject to be a village?
- As I wrote at the outset,
Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages.
They haven't conducted a census since '95 - so you won't be getting fancy tables etc. TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)- It's probably the first. And therein lies the issue. The fact that something gets a mention in some decree or brochure might not necessarily give it legal recognition. The slippery slope argument would cry: "every property address mentioned in every court case could end up with its own wiki page". There has to be some threshold - some definition for legal recognition. Do we know of any?
- That said, the additional citations that today appeared in the article help with
WP:GNG.
Chumpih. (
talk) 18:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Good luck convincing others. The sources were already cited in this AfD but whatever. Please have the last word. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, per
WP:NPLACE there needs to be legal recognition or satisfy
WP:GNG. What source shows legal recognition?
Chumpih. (
talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- GEOLAND do not require a GNG pass. That being said, consult the article for the sources?
TrangaBellam (
talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- You need to give definite arguments; not handwave at policies and claim violations. What is
- Well, as independent as possible. Once in Draft space this can be brought up to spec, then go through appropriate review via AfC.
Chumpih. (
talk) 21:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
-
Chumpih, independent of the subject? If you are pointing at non-govt. sources, you won't get any: media is controlled by Turkmen Government directly (or indirectly). Robust sources: if Government publications mentioning it as a village are not robust, I don't know what it is.
TrangaBellam (
talk) 21:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. I am convinced by the arguments and sourcing that it is a recognised settlement and therefore passes
WP:GEOLAND. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 08:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- @
Necrothesp: For the sake of clarity, which particular source showing legal recognition did you find convincing?
Chumpih. (
talk) 12:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Those cited above by TrangaBellam. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- @
Necrothesp: For the sake of clarity, which particular source showing legal recognition did you find convincing?
Chumpih. (
talk) 12:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - adequately sourced as it stands - no need for draftification. There is no ban on stubs - articles don't have to start as, umm, Start class. I must also comment that in my view the treatment of TrangaBellam above, who there is no reason to doubt is a GF editor, is coming close to bullying. Ingratis ( talk) 17:09, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.