- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. Per WP:HEY, AfD withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
List of schools in Sejong City
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- List of schools in Sejong City ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I'm not seeing why we need an exhaustive list of schools for this city. The topic seems to be a violation of WP:NOTDIR Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed. Also this policy discourages simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopaedic merit. List also fails WP:LISTN due to a lack of WP:SIGCOV about this group of schools as a group. The local government website for Sejong is not an acceptable source as it's clearly not independent of the subject. This article only seems to have two notable schools (to be honest, even those two schools might be non-notable) so the list is not a useful index. Similar case to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of high schools in Asunción, Paraguay and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of schools in Riobamba among many others. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education, Schools, Lists, and South Korea. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:16, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes#Schools explains why we have such exhaustive lists: "Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability usually get merged or redirected to [...] the lowest level locality (elsewhere or where there is no governing body)." The local website of Sejong is an acceptable source to prove the school exists, and South Korean municipal websites document very well which schools exist in the country. Now does this mean the school has notability? No. The solution would be to redirect the school name to Sejong City. However this then requires the article "Sejong City" to carry the name of the school (so the redirect can exist). However if there are a large number of schools, a daughter article "List of schools in Sejong City" would be created to retain the information.
- Whether to keep this list or not depends on how many schools Sejong City has. Can the city article comfortably keep the list of schools, or does it need a separate article? I've listed schools for Japanese municipalities and found ways to compress the lists using "div col", so I think I might be able to compress the lists of schools in the article Sejong City
- WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I understand the logic of those redirects being created as an alternative to an article although I do note that a lot of recent similar AfDs to this one have concluded in 'delete' which means that the consensus might be changing. My other concern is that I would still say that NOTDIR applies to a list of non-notable schools and I'm struggling to see why we find a directory list of schools acceptable, whether that be as part of the city article or as its own article, yet find directory lists of just about everything else to be unacceptable. I mean it wasn't that long ago that secondary schools were presumed to be notable enough for a stand-alone article without exception so maybe this needs looking at from scratch as it seems contradictory.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 17:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- One aspect is that many users wanted Wikipedia to function as a
gazeteer of some sort noting major geographic sites, of which schools (especially government-operated schools) are one of them. As all incorporated municipalities are to have articles, there is an expectation of knowing about their respectively major functional sites like libraries, post offices, fire stations, and schools (especially government-run schools). Now, I notice in one of the AFDs the users wanted the schools being "discussed as a group or set in multiple, reliable secondary sources". I can check with South Korean editors if there are sources about the development of schools in Sejong City (which is a planned city set to be the administrative heart of South Korea).
WhisperToMe (
talk) 17:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think it would be good to see what South Korean editors think as I'm not from South Korea so wouldn't have any first-hand experience of this topic.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 18:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Great news! User:*Youngjin found some stuff we can use: ko:사용자토론:*Youngjin WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think it would be good to see what South Korean editors think as I'm not from South Korea so wouldn't have any first-hand experience of this topic.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 18:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- One aspect is that many users wanted Wikipedia to function as a
gazeteer of some sort noting major geographic sites, of which schools (especially government-operated schools) are one of them. As all incorporated municipalities are to have articles, there is an expectation of knowing about their respectively major functional sites like libraries, post offices, fire stations, and schools (especially government-run schools). Now, I notice in one of the AFDs the users wanted the schools being "discussed as a group or set in multiple, reliable secondary sources". I can check with South Korean editors if there are sources about the development of schools in Sejong City (which is a planned city set to be the administrative heart of South Korea).
WhisperToMe (
talk) 17:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I understand the logic of those redirects being created as an alternative to an article although I do note that a lot of recent similar AfDs to this one have concluded in 'delete' which means that the consensus might be changing. My other concern is that I would still say that NOTDIR applies to a list of non-notable schools and I'm struggling to see why we find a directory list of schools acceptable, whether that be as part of the city article or as its own article, yet find directory lists of just about everything else to be unacceptable. I mean it wasn't that long ago that secondary schools were presumed to be notable enough for a stand-alone article without exception so maybe this needs looking at from scratch as it seems contradictory.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 17:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - Since there is material which does show that the schools are altogether discussed as a group/set in multiple, reliable secondary sources WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was speedy keep. Per WP:HEY, AfD withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
List of schools in Sejong City
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of schools in Sejong City ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I'm not seeing why we need an exhaustive list of schools for this city. The topic seems to be a violation of WP:NOTDIR Wikipedia is not a directory of everything in the universe that exists or has existed. Also this policy discourages simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopaedic merit. List also fails WP:LISTN due to a lack of WP:SIGCOV about this group of schools as a group. The local government website for Sejong is not an acceptable source as it's clearly not independent of the subject. This article only seems to have two notable schools (to be honest, even those two schools might be non-notable) so the list is not a useful index. Similar case to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of high schools in Asunción, Paraguay and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of schools in Riobamba among many others. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education, Schools, Lists, and South Korea. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:16, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Common_outcomes#Schools explains why we have such exhaustive lists: "Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability usually get merged or redirected to [...] the lowest level locality (elsewhere or where there is no governing body)." The local website of Sejong is an acceptable source to prove the school exists, and South Korean municipal websites document very well which schools exist in the country. Now does this mean the school has notability? No. The solution would be to redirect the school name to Sejong City. However this then requires the article "Sejong City" to carry the name of the school (so the redirect can exist). However if there are a large number of schools, a daughter article "List of schools in Sejong City" would be created to retain the information.
- Whether to keep this list or not depends on how many schools Sejong City has. Can the city article comfortably keep the list of schools, or does it need a separate article? I've listed schools for Japanese municipalities and found ways to compress the lists using "div col", so I think I might be able to compress the lists of schools in the article Sejong City
- WhisperToMe ( talk) 16:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I understand the logic of those redirects being created as an alternative to an article although I do note that a lot of recent similar AfDs to this one have concluded in 'delete' which means that the consensus might be changing. My other concern is that I would still say that NOTDIR applies to a list of non-notable schools and I'm struggling to see why we find a directory list of schools acceptable, whether that be as part of the city article or as its own article, yet find directory lists of just about everything else to be unacceptable. I mean it wasn't that long ago that secondary schools were presumed to be notable enough for a stand-alone article without exception so maybe this needs looking at from scratch as it seems contradictory.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 17:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- One aspect is that many users wanted Wikipedia to function as a
gazeteer of some sort noting major geographic sites, of which schools (especially government-operated schools) are one of them. As all incorporated municipalities are to have articles, there is an expectation of knowing about their respectively major functional sites like libraries, post offices, fire stations, and schools (especially government-run schools). Now, I notice in one of the AFDs the users wanted the schools being "discussed as a group or set in multiple, reliable secondary sources". I can check with South Korean editors if there are sources about the development of schools in Sejong City (which is a planned city set to be the administrative heart of South Korea).
WhisperToMe (
talk) 17:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think it would be good to see what South Korean editors think as I'm not from South Korea so wouldn't have any first-hand experience of this topic.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 18:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Great news! User:*Youngjin found some stuff we can use: ko:사용자토론:*Youngjin WhisperToMe ( talk) 19:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think it would be good to see what South Korean editors think as I'm not from South Korea so wouldn't have any first-hand experience of this topic.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 18:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- One aspect is that many users wanted Wikipedia to function as a
gazeteer of some sort noting major geographic sites, of which schools (especially government-operated schools) are one of them. As all incorporated municipalities are to have articles, there is an expectation of knowing about their respectively major functional sites like libraries, post offices, fire stations, and schools (especially government-run schools). Now, I notice in one of the AFDs the users wanted the schools being "discussed as a group or set in multiple, reliable secondary sources". I can check with South Korean editors if there are sources about the development of schools in Sejong City (which is a planned city set to be the administrative heart of South Korea).
WhisperToMe (
talk) 17:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- I understand the logic of those redirects being created as an alternative to an article although I do note that a lot of recent similar AfDs to this one have concluded in 'delete' which means that the consensus might be changing. My other concern is that I would still say that NOTDIR applies to a list of non-notable schools and I'm struggling to see why we find a directory list of schools acceptable, whether that be as part of the city article or as its own article, yet find directory lists of just about everything else to be unacceptable. I mean it wasn't that long ago that secondary schools were presumed to be notable enough for a stand-alone article without exception so maybe this needs looking at from scratch as it seems contradictory.
Spiderone
(Talk to Spider) 17:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - Since there is material which does show that the schools are altogether discussed as a group/set in multiple, reliable secondary sources WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.