- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A clear consensus has emerged for keeping. Michig ( talk) 09:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 | This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2018 September 17. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
Eliot Cutler
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- Eliot Cutler ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Poorly written article with issues. Twice–failed candidate for public office who never once held an elected position; has been out of politics for years. Fails WP:NPOL/ WP:GNG. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 05:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 07:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 07:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- delete only real notability is he two elections in which he was a failed candidate. I would probably redirect this to the 2010 election, where he was an important factor. Mangoe ( talk) 15:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Weak keep - he's running again, so he could be considered a perennial candidate. Bearian ( talk) 00:02, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - He declined to run again in 2018 since he's in his 70s and didn't win the first two times. He worked to recruit independents for the 2018 elections, but that's not a candidate status. (see his page for details on this) Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 00:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- "Perennial candidate" doesn't satisfy any Wikipedia inclusion criterion. Bearcat ( talk) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Delete a clearly non-notable candidate. Very rarely does being a candidate make one notable, generally one has to win. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 03:13, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Reopened and relisted per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 17.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:27, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
- Oppel, Richard A., Jr. (1991-10-27).
"Lawyer chops airports down to size".
Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
{{ cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link)The article is a 2,525-word profile of the subject. The article notes:
The article discusses his work in the Jimmy Carter US presidential administration:In March 1980, Eliot R. Cutler, already a senior budget official in the Carter administration at age 33, left what had been almost his entire career: public service.
With another White House staffer, Cutler joined a Washington law firm and delved into the Byzantine world of environmental and land use law.
Today, the practice he and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues.
...
But Cutler had no time to celebrate. He was off to Phoenix to deal with another case. Such is life for the 45-year-old lawyer, who spends more than one-third of each year flying throughout the United States to counsel clients that include Fortune 500 corporations, a university and, most visibly, airport opponents.
...
With more than 10 years in private practice behind him, Cutler is a serious man with a sense of humor. Perhaps he has to be: His past employers include President Jimmy Carter and failed presidential candidates Walter F. Mondale and Edmund S. Muskie. A veteran of three presidential campaigns, Cutler got his start in Washington 23 years ago, when, as a legislative aide to Muskie, he shepherded environmental bills through the Capitol.
In 1976, Mondale asked Cutler to join his staff. The next year, after the Carter-Mondale win, Cutler was named associate director of the Office of Management and Budget, the executive-branch office that devises the federal budget. He was 30.
As one of the highest-ranking staffers in OMB, Cutler was given the responsibility of drafting budgets for the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, the Department of the Interior and other offices.
- Poore, Chris (1996-11-15).
"Council's Airport Consultant Candidate Is Controversial".
Lexington Herald-Leader. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
The article later notes:Louisville Mayor Jerry Abramson once quipped that Washington consultant Eliot Cutler holds up airports like Jesse James held up banks.
To Abramson, who was pushing for big expansion at the city's airport in the late 1980s, Cutler was not a welcome sight.
...
...
Eliot, whose firm has been involved in more than 50 airport projects in the last 20 years, is by most accounts an expert on airport issues.
He has represented opponents - such as communities neighboring Louisville's airport - as well as airport boards across the country.
...
One of the most common names is "airport buster." Cutler has represented opponents in Denver, Seattle, Dallas, Cleveland and Bridgeton, Mo.
In 1990, Cutler charged the city of Bridgeton as much as $275 an hour in their fight against St. Louis' airport expansion.
His law firm, Cutler & Stanfield, has 20 lawyers who specialize in aviation law. Cutler said the money his firm charges is justified.
...
Cutler made national headlines over the last decade as he represented six cities and neighbors surrounding Denver's old Stapleton International Airport.
- Carnahan, Ann; Hubbard, Burt (1995-02-05).
"Flying Blind Into a Mountain of Debt the Untold Story of How Denver Hitched Its Destiny to DIA and Closed Its Eyes to a Gathering Storm of Doubt".
Rocky Mountain News. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
They did it by hiring Eliot Cutler.
A shrewd young attorney from Bangor, Maine, Cutler cut his political teeth as Sen. Edmund Muskie's legislative assistant. He parlayed his handling of Walter Mondale's 1976 vice presidential campaign into a plum appointment in the Carter administration.
After Carter's defeat in 1980, Cutler joined a New York law firm that included former New York Mayor John Lindsay.
...
Cutler screeched to a halt in the middle of the street, and the three lawyers scurried for 10 minutes chasing papers as motorists gawked.
Cutler didn't come cheap. He stayed at the Brown Palace, ate well and charged more than $300 an hour.
In 10 years of advising Adams County, he racked up quite a bill: $7 million.
- Camia, Catalina (1989-10-16).
"Cities' attorney in D/FW fight has record of success".
The Dallas Morning News. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
To some of his opponents, Washington attorney Eliot R. Cutler is a modern-day holdup man -- a Jesse James who snatches major concessions for clients who fight airport developments.
But supporters -- and even begrudging detractors -- compliment the former Carter administration member for his ability to negotiate environmental, noise and land-use agreements that are fair for both sides.
Because of Mr. Cutler's national reputation, officials in Grapevine, Irving and Euless have pooled their resources to hire his law firm in their fight against a proposed $3.5 billion expansion for Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.
-
"Gubernatorial candidate profile: Eliot Cutler, independent".
Bangor Daily News. 2010-09-19. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
Cutler, the most well-known and politically experienced of three independents running for governor, needs votes from centrist Republicans, moderate Democrats and plenty of independents if he can mount a successful run at the Blaine House.
The Bangor native who now lives in Cape Elizabeth has plenty of confidence.
...
Cutler effectively retired from public service in the mid-1980s and spent more than two decades in the private sector as an attorney and businessman.
He said his moment of gubernatorial aspiration came in January 2009 when he was asked to give a speech in Portland on education and was told his time allotment was 20 minutes. But 20 minutes wouldn’t cut it.
...
Criticism of Cutler has grown of late and it’s coming from both sides — about his commitment to Maine, his ties to a failed mortgage company and the notion that he’s a Democrat posing as an independent. The most caustic criticism is coming from an anonymous website,cutlerfiles.com, that launched last month.
- Russell, Eric (2014-09-14).
"The working life of Eliot Cutler: The independent, a protege of Maine Sen. Edmund Muskie, has amassed a wealth of experience in business and law".
Portland Press Herald. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
In the mid-1970s, when he was fresh out of law school, Eliot Cutler took a job that would force him to go toe-to-toe with his former boss and mentor, U.S. Sen. Edmund Muskie.
...
By 1973, Cutler had met a Georgetown Law classmate named Melanie Stewart. The two married a year later.
Armed with law degrees, Eliot and Melanie began looking for jobs in Maine, but were unsuccessful.
So they ended up in New York. That’s when Cutler began working for the International Council of Shopping Centers, a client he would bring with him when he was hired by the firm Webster & Sheffield.
- Russell, Eric (2014-07-13).
"The Early Years: Eliot Cutler. The son of a Bangor doctor and a community-minded mom, the gubernatorial candidate developed an early passion for success and service, and a desire to give back to his home state".
Portland Press Herald. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
By his own admission, Eliot Cutler was an underachiever when he entered Bangor High School in the early 1960s.
His father, a prominent doctor, and his mother, a community-minded and socially conscious housewife, decided their oldest son needed to be challenged, and they didn’t think that would happen in Bangor. At the time, the high school was so overcrowded that it had to split school days into two shifts.
After his freshman year, young Eliot was given two choices: Hebron Academy in western Maine or Deerfield Academy in midwestern Massachusetts, both private boarding schools.
Cutler chose Deerfield, and so began an educational pedigree that rivals senators, presidents and Fortune 500 CEOs.
...
His brothers, Joel and Josh, both went to medical school and became doctors like their father, but Eliot was always interested in politics.
- Oppel, Richard A., Jr. (1991-10-27).
"Lawyer chops airports down to size".
Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
- Pinging Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 17#Eliot Cutler participants who have not commented here: Namiba ( talk · contribs), R. fiend ( talk · contribs), DGG ( talk · contribs), SportingFlyer ( talk · contribs), Alpha3031 ( talk · contribs), Editorofthewiki ( talk · contribs), Enos733 ( talk · contribs), and Doncram ( talk · contribs).
- Keep. I said at the deletion review. " For a losing major party candidate for a position like this, there will always be enough press, and it's time we just accepted the articles. " I think Cunard has shown that for this example. .Similar careful work at other articles of this sort would probably show this also. It's unfortunately one of the things I no longer have patience to do myself, but know that I ought to. DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Every candidate in every election can always show "enough press" to at least try to claim that they've passed
WP:GNG and are therefore exempted from actually having to pass
WP:NPOL. So no, it's not "time we just accepted the articles" — doing so would simply vitiate Wikipedia having any notability standards for politicians at all, and require us to keep an article about every single person who was ever a candidate for anything. Wikipedia: the repository of useless campaign brochures for people of no ongoing interest that anybody can game. #NotWhatWeAspireToBe.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- This is not the place to rewrite notability policy.
WP:BASIC is clear that SNGs like NPOL are meant to be additional ways of being notable, and not to establish a higher bar than GNG:
People who meet the basic criteria may be considered notable without meeting the additional criteria below.
- This is not the place to rewrite notability policy.
WP:BASIC is clear that SNGs like NPOL are meant to be additional ways of being notable, and not to establish a higher bar than GNG:
- Every candidate in every election can always show "enough press" to at least try to claim that they've passed
WP:GNG and are therefore exempted from actually having to pass
WP:NPOL. So no, it's not "time we just accepted the articles" — doing so would simply vitiate Wikipedia having any notability standards for politicians at all, and require us to keep an article about every single person who was ever a candidate for anything. Wikipedia: the repository of useless campaign brochures for people of no ongoing interest that anybody can game. #NotWhatWeAspireToBe.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- And on the merits, #WhatWeAspireTo is to benefit readers by acting as an encyclopedia, a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge. Democratic political history—who is running or has run for this position? what is/was their platform? how was it received? how have observers of this political scene characterized their importance?—is a very important and useful kind of knowledge for citizens of a democracy, as well as for future historians. (I don't know if you've ever done historical research, but you can probably imagine how useful it would be to have a repository in the digital archive summarizing and collecting the metadata of mainstream contemporary political reporting on, say, what people in Abraham Lincoln's Illinois House district thought about his 1837 "free soil" positions.)
- Note also WP:NOTPAPER—including more articles doesn't require us to give up others. We should determine notability by whether it's possible to write a policy-compliant article on a subject, not whether we think the subject is especially important or worthy. FourViolas ( talk) 14:26, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep There is sufficient RS sourcing about the subject's two campaigns to warrant an article (and because there are two campaigns, there is not a single redirect target). To be clear, the subject was not a major party candidate in either 2010 or 2014, and ran as an independent both times. In addition to the subject's career in politics, there are a handful of articles about his work within the Maine University system. -- Enos733 ( talk) 17:34, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep As myself and others argued elsewhere, there are more than a sufficient number of in-depth and non-trivial sources covering Eliot Cutler.-- TM 21:41, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Merge to Maine gubernatorial election, 2010. As nom, I notice that there is coverage of him, but not enough to satisfy WP:GNG. He is really only known for the election, so it could be merged to a Background of Candidates section there. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rebekah Kennedy for a similar result. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the ample independent sources linked to both above and in Deletion Review?-- TM 22:33, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Merge per Redditaddict. I don't think he would be notable as an attorney - his notability comes from the fact he ran as an independent in that election, and we can update the article there to reflect the coverage he received. SportingFlyer talk 23:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I think there are enough non-trivial sources to merit a page. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 01:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Plenty of coverage, as a major candidate in two gubernatorial elections. The basic purpose of the policy on candidates is to prevent articles on people who get 2% of the vote, and also-rans in minor elections, which doesn't apply here. He got over 200,000 votes and was endorsed by most of the major newspapers in the state. We aren't deleting Wendell Wilkie's article because he lost, and we have plenty of articles on people who ran and lost races for less significant offices, who got a small fraction of the votes he got ( Zephyr Teachout for one). His candidacy twice helped elect the most sorry excuse for a lump of human shit to be elected governor in a lifetime. People will want information on what was behind that, and how an independent candidate beat the Democrat by such a margin, in more detail than would be covered in an article on that election (as well as the following one in which he got a much smaller percentage of the vote, but enough to be reasonably labelled a spoiler). To that end this article could use significant expansion, not deletion. - R. fiend ( talk) 07:34, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- @ R. fiend: I see so many things wrong with this.
- 1. What policy says candidates who get over 2% of the vote are notable? See WP:Articles for deletion/Bob Henry Baber and the one I mentioned earlier, WP:Articles for deletion/Rebekah Kennedy.
- 2. 200,000 votes is nothing – Again, see Rebekah Kennedy's deletion discussion. Typically, state newspapers, while they count towards WP:GNG, aren't sufficient.
- 3. Wendell Wilkie is a famous person and major party nominee that went head-to-head with FDR, receiving the highest EV count of all of FDR's opponents. This argument has nothing to do with Cutler - comparing a major party nominee for President vs. an Independent candidate for a state governorship. The 'many articles' we have on lost candidates are notable for reasons outside of their candidacy, such as Lois Combs Weinberg, Robert Kelleher, Richard Ziser, and Kathleen Sullivan Alioto, all of which survived deletion discussions.
- 4. Your final comment is solely about the candidacy is just about the candidacy. That can be merged to the article itself, similarly to the Redirect+Merge with Rebekah Kennedy's discussion. A single candidacy does not make an article notable. See WP:Articles for deletion/Naomi Andrews, WP:Articles for deletion/Joe Manchik, WP:Articles for deletion/Tony Campbell (Maryland politician), WP:Articles for deletion/Shawn Moody, WP:Articles for deletion/Bill Lee (Tennessee politician)... among the dozens of other failed 2018-election-cycle candidates whose pages were merged onto the page of the election that they were known for.
- There is nothing wrong with you supporting a keep, but mention policies and guidelines that he passes with examples before stating all of this information.
Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 08:31, 1 October 2018 (UTC)- Comment The problem with a merge or redirect is that there are two valid election targets. --
Enos733 (
talk) 16:43, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- And he was far more recognized for the 2010 election. Just like Ross Perot is more known for 1992 than 1996. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 18:14, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment The problem with a merge or redirect is that there are two valid election targets. --
Enos733 (
talk) 16:43, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I initially wasn't sure as he is only notable for the two Maine gubernatorial elections however a quick Google search provides a large amount of sources that seem to support his notability as a former Independent candidate for office. In the WP:NPOL criteria it states that "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" are "presumed to be notable". Whilst Cutler never held office, he came a close second and in the process is still written about in articles such as this in CNN, as well has having received attention even in this Washington Post article during the 2014 election despite his ultimate failure in the race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenleader(2) ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment about merge: A merge is not appropriate because Eliot Cutler was notable before the two gubernatorial elections he was a candidate for.
The two elections:
He received significant coverage before 2010:- A 27 October 1991 article in
Fort Worth Star-Telegram is a 2,525-word profile of him. It notes, "the practice [Cutler] and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues".
It also notes that at age 30, Cutler was "named associate director of the Office of Management and Budget" (OMB) for the Jimmy Carter presidential administration which made him "one of the highest-ranking staffers in OMB". His work at the OMB involved "drafting budgets for the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, the Department of the Interior and other offices".
- An 11 November 1996 article in Lexington Herald-Leader notes that Cutler "is by most accounts an expert on airport issues" and "Cutler made national headlines over the last decade as he represented six cities and neighbors surrounding Denver's old Stapleton International Airport".
- A 16 October 1989 article in The Dallas Morning News notes, "To some of his opponents, Washington attorney Eliot R. Cutler is a modern-day holdup man -- a Jesse James who snatches major concessions for clients who fight airport developments." And "Because of Mr. Cutler's national reputation, officials in Grapevine, Irving and Euless have pooled their resources to hire his law firm in their fight against a proposed $3.5 billion expansion for Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport."
- A 27 October 1991 article in
Fort Worth Star-Telegram is a 2,525-word profile of him. It notes, "the practice [Cutler] and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues".
- Keep. I commented in the deletion review, including about sources. Sources in article plus sources in deletion review, and probably more sources here, show obviously meets wp:GNG. Obviously can't be merged away to just one of the articles about gubernatorial elections too. We need to have one article to link to from multiple places where Eliot Cutler is appropriately mentioned. I see mention of Ross Perot, above; yes this is comparable. -- Doncram ( talk) 15:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: It would impoverish numerous existing mainspace articles to delete Wikipedia's article about Cutler. Inbound links to
Eliot Cutler article come from the following mainspace articles (in just the first page of 50 hits from "what links here"):
- Spoiler effect (links | edit)
- Piscataquis County, Maine (links | edit)
- Cape Elizabeth, Maine (links | edit)
- Angus King (links | edit)
- Portland Press Herald (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2010 (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2010 (links | edit)
- Libby Mitchell (links | edit)
- Dennis Damon (links | edit)
- Rosa Scarcelli (links | edit)
- Paul LePage (links | edit)
- Joint Tribal Council of the Passamaquoddy Tribe v. Morton (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2014 (links | edit)
- Edward Suslovic (links | edit)
- Roberto Bernardi (links | edit)
- Rodney S. Quinn (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2014 (links | edit)
- Patrick Flood (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2018 (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2018 (links | edit)
- United States Senate election in Maine, 2018 (links | edit)
- To take one example, the article about Maine politician Patrick Flood mentions, as something significant about Flood, that "Flood endorsed independent Eliot Cutler in the 2014 Maine gubernatorial election." Rather than having a sentence or two or three at the Flood page to explain who is Cutler, it is efficient, editorially, to cover Cutler in a separate article.
- There are more inbound links on the next page of 50 hits from "what links here".
- -- Doncram ( talk) 15:52, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Frankly I'm surprised that this discussion is ongoing. This guy is probably more "notable" than 90% of those people who do have Wikipedia articles, without even considering any candidacy for office. It seems that candidacy in itself is perversely being used to discredit the actual notability of subject who clearly would be notable if they never imagined they might run for anything. Activist ( talk) 21:20, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Meets WP:BASIC and doesn't fall into an WP:NOT or WP:AVOIDVICTIM categories; that's good enough. The WP:LOCALCONSENSUS enshrined in the essay WP:POLOUTCOMES does not overrule the general notability guideline. FourViolas ( talk) 21:25, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Like others, I'm surprised this nomination is ongoing: Cutler has had an immense impact on Maine politics through his historically significant independent run the first time, through spoilering Democratic candidates and allowing a far-right governor to win in Maine twice, and causing such upheaval that Maine actually changed their entire system of voting in a US first so the issues Cutler caused couldn't happen again. The coverage on him is immense. This is the perfect example of why, although unsuccessful candidates are usually not-notable, an attitude of "shoot any and all unelected candidates" leads to ridiculous outcomes. The Drover's Wife ( talk) 01:33, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes WP:GNG with significant coverage in multiple, reliable, and independent sources, spanning a period of several years. Examples include those now in the article and cited above, plus: (1) " Eliot Cutler", Maine: The Magazine, June 2011; (2) " Cutler officially launches campaign for Maine governor", Associated Press, 9/25/13; (3) " Independent Eliot Cutler just helped Democrats in the Maine governor’s race. Sort of", The Washington Post, 10/29/14; (4) " Eliot Cutler: 'No bromance' between me and Paul LePage", MSNBC, 11/9/14; and (5) " Eliot Cutler resigns as head of UMaine System graduate center", 8/31/17. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I am a strong advocate for the proposition that the vast majority of unelected candidates for political office are not notable and should not have Wikipedia biographies. Cutler is an exception to that general rule. He has been a public figure for over 40 years, received signigicant coverage as an official of the Jimmy Carter administration and is a leading expert in legal cases involving airport construction and expansion. His candidacies in Maine were not simple "he ran and lost" stories but were pivotal in the election victories of Paul LePage, a highly controversial figure on the national political scene. This is another example of the importance of well-informed editorial judgment in making deletion decisions. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:56, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A clear consensus has emerged for keeping. Michig ( talk) 09:15, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
| This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2018 September 17. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
Eliot Cutler
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Eliot Cutler ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Poorly written article with issues. Twice–failed candidate for public office who never once held an elected position; has been out of politics for years. Fails WP:NPOL/ WP:GNG. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 05:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 07:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 07:03, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- delete only real notability is he two elections in which he was a failed candidate. I would probably redirect this to the 2010 election, where he was an important factor. Mangoe ( talk) 15:02, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
- Weak keep - he's running again, so he could be considered a perennial candidate. Bearian ( talk) 00:02, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - He declined to run again in 2018 since he's in his 70s and didn't win the first two times. He worked to recruit independents for the 2018 elections, but that's not a candidate status. (see his page for details on this) Redditaddict69 (click here if I screwed up stuff again) (edits) 00:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
- "Perennial candidate" doesn't satisfy any Wikipedia inclusion criterion. Bearcat ( talk) 19:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Delete a clearly non-notable candidate. Very rarely does being a candidate make one notable, generally one has to win. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 03:13, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Reopened and relisted per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 17.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:27, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
- Oppel, Richard A., Jr. (1991-10-27).
"Lawyer chops airports down to size".
Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
{{ cite news}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link)The article is a 2,525-word profile of the subject. The article notes:
The article discusses his work in the Jimmy Carter US presidential administration:In March 1980, Eliot R. Cutler, already a senior budget official in the Carter administration at age 33, left what had been almost his entire career: public service.
With another White House staffer, Cutler joined a Washington law firm and delved into the Byzantine world of environmental and land use law.
Today, the practice he and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues.
...
But Cutler had no time to celebrate. He was off to Phoenix to deal with another case. Such is life for the 45-year-old lawyer, who spends more than one-third of each year flying throughout the United States to counsel clients that include Fortune 500 corporations, a university and, most visibly, airport opponents.
...
With more than 10 years in private practice behind him, Cutler is a serious man with a sense of humor. Perhaps he has to be: His past employers include President Jimmy Carter and failed presidential candidates Walter F. Mondale and Edmund S. Muskie. A veteran of three presidential campaigns, Cutler got his start in Washington 23 years ago, when, as a legislative aide to Muskie, he shepherded environmental bills through the Capitol.
In 1976, Mondale asked Cutler to join his staff. The next year, after the Carter-Mondale win, Cutler was named associate director of the Office of Management and Budget, the executive-branch office that devises the federal budget. He was 30.
As one of the highest-ranking staffers in OMB, Cutler was given the responsibility of drafting budgets for the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, the Department of the Interior and other offices.
- Poore, Chris (1996-11-15).
"Council's Airport Consultant Candidate Is Controversial".
Lexington Herald-Leader. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
The article later notes:Louisville Mayor Jerry Abramson once quipped that Washington consultant Eliot Cutler holds up airports like Jesse James held up banks.
To Abramson, who was pushing for big expansion at the city's airport in the late 1980s, Cutler was not a welcome sight.
...
...
Eliot, whose firm has been involved in more than 50 airport projects in the last 20 years, is by most accounts an expert on airport issues.
He has represented opponents - such as communities neighboring Louisville's airport - as well as airport boards across the country.
...
One of the most common names is "airport buster." Cutler has represented opponents in Denver, Seattle, Dallas, Cleveland and Bridgeton, Mo.
In 1990, Cutler charged the city of Bridgeton as much as $275 an hour in their fight against St. Louis' airport expansion.
His law firm, Cutler & Stanfield, has 20 lawyers who specialize in aviation law. Cutler said the money his firm charges is justified.
...
Cutler made national headlines over the last decade as he represented six cities and neighbors surrounding Denver's old Stapleton International Airport.
- Carnahan, Ann; Hubbard, Burt (1995-02-05).
"Flying Blind Into a Mountain of Debt the Untold Story of How Denver Hitched Its Destiny to DIA and Closed Its Eyes to a Gathering Storm of Doubt".
Rocky Mountain News. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
They did it by hiring Eliot Cutler.
A shrewd young attorney from Bangor, Maine, Cutler cut his political teeth as Sen. Edmund Muskie's legislative assistant. He parlayed his handling of Walter Mondale's 1976 vice presidential campaign into a plum appointment in the Carter administration.
After Carter's defeat in 1980, Cutler joined a New York law firm that included former New York Mayor John Lindsay.
...
Cutler screeched to a halt in the middle of the street, and the three lawyers scurried for 10 minutes chasing papers as motorists gawked.
Cutler didn't come cheap. He stayed at the Brown Palace, ate well and charged more than $300 an hour.
In 10 years of advising Adams County, he racked up quite a bill: $7 million.
- Camia, Catalina (1989-10-16).
"Cities' attorney in D/FW fight has record of success".
The Dallas Morning News. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
To some of his opponents, Washington attorney Eliot R. Cutler is a modern-day holdup man -- a Jesse James who snatches major concessions for clients who fight airport developments.
But supporters -- and even begrudging detractors -- compliment the former Carter administration member for his ability to negotiate environmental, noise and land-use agreements that are fair for both sides.
Because of Mr. Cutler's national reputation, officials in Grapevine, Irving and Euless have pooled their resources to hire his law firm in their fight against a proposed $3.5 billion expansion for Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.
-
"Gubernatorial candidate profile: Eliot Cutler, independent".
Bangor Daily News. 2010-09-19. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
Cutler, the most well-known and politically experienced of three independents running for governor, needs votes from centrist Republicans, moderate Democrats and plenty of independents if he can mount a successful run at the Blaine House.
The Bangor native who now lives in Cape Elizabeth has plenty of confidence.
...
Cutler effectively retired from public service in the mid-1980s and spent more than two decades in the private sector as an attorney and businessman.
He said his moment of gubernatorial aspiration came in January 2009 when he was asked to give a speech in Portland on education and was told his time allotment was 20 minutes. But 20 minutes wouldn’t cut it.
...
Criticism of Cutler has grown of late and it’s coming from both sides — about his commitment to Maine, his ties to a failed mortgage company and the notion that he’s a Democrat posing as an independent. The most caustic criticism is coming from an anonymous website,cutlerfiles.com, that launched last month.
- Russell, Eric (2014-09-14).
"The working life of Eliot Cutler: The independent, a protege of Maine Sen. Edmund Muskie, has amassed a wealth of experience in business and law".
Portland Press Herald. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
In the mid-1970s, when he was fresh out of law school, Eliot Cutler took a job that would force him to go toe-to-toe with his former boss and mentor, U.S. Sen. Edmund Muskie.
...
By 1973, Cutler had met a Georgetown Law classmate named Melanie Stewart. The two married a year later.
Armed with law degrees, Eliot and Melanie began looking for jobs in Maine, but were unsuccessful.
So they ended up in New York. That’s when Cutler began working for the International Council of Shopping Centers, a client he would bring with him when he was hired by the firm Webster & Sheffield.
- Russell, Eric (2014-07-13).
"The Early Years: Eliot Cutler. The son of a Bangor doctor and a community-minded mom, the gubernatorial candidate developed an early passion for success and service, and a desire to give back to his home state".
Portland Press Herald. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
The article notes:
By his own admission, Eliot Cutler was an underachiever when he entered Bangor High School in the early 1960s.
His father, a prominent doctor, and his mother, a community-minded and socially conscious housewife, decided their oldest son needed to be challenged, and they didn’t think that would happen in Bangor. At the time, the high school was so overcrowded that it had to split school days into two shifts.
After his freshman year, young Eliot was given two choices: Hebron Academy in western Maine or Deerfield Academy in midwestern Massachusetts, both private boarding schools.
Cutler chose Deerfield, and so began an educational pedigree that rivals senators, presidents and Fortune 500 CEOs.
...
His brothers, Joel and Josh, both went to medical school and became doctors like their father, but Eliot was always interested in politics.
- Oppel, Richard A., Jr. (1991-10-27).
"Lawyer chops airports down to size".
Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Archived from
the original on 2018-09-30. Retrieved 2018-09-30.
- Pinging Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 September 17#Eliot Cutler participants who have not commented here: Namiba ( talk · contribs), R. fiend ( talk · contribs), DGG ( talk · contribs), SportingFlyer ( talk · contribs), Alpha3031 ( talk · contribs), Editorofthewiki ( talk · contribs), Enos733 ( talk · contribs), and Doncram ( talk · contribs).
- Keep. I said at the deletion review. " For a losing major party candidate for a position like this, there will always be enough press, and it's time we just accepted the articles. " I think Cunard has shown that for this example. .Similar careful work at other articles of this sort would probably show this also. It's unfortunately one of the things I no longer have patience to do myself, but know that I ought to. DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Every candidate in every election can always show "enough press" to at least try to claim that they've passed
WP:GNG and are therefore exempted from actually having to pass
WP:NPOL. So no, it's not "time we just accepted the articles" — doing so would simply vitiate Wikipedia having any notability standards for politicians at all, and require us to keep an article about every single person who was ever a candidate for anything. Wikipedia: the repository of useless campaign brochures for people of no ongoing interest that anybody can game. #NotWhatWeAspireToBe.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- This is not the place to rewrite notability policy.
WP:BASIC is clear that SNGs like NPOL are meant to be additional ways of being notable, and not to establish a higher bar than GNG:
People who meet the basic criteria may be considered notable without meeting the additional criteria below.
- This is not the place to rewrite notability policy.
WP:BASIC is clear that SNGs like NPOL are meant to be additional ways of being notable, and not to establish a higher bar than GNG:
- Every candidate in every election can always show "enough press" to at least try to claim that they've passed
WP:GNG and are therefore exempted from actually having to pass
WP:NPOL. So no, it's not "time we just accepted the articles" — doing so would simply vitiate Wikipedia having any notability standards for politicians at all, and require us to keep an article about every single person who was ever a candidate for anything. Wikipedia: the repository of useless campaign brochures for people of no ongoing interest that anybody can game. #NotWhatWeAspireToBe.
Bearcat (
talk) 19:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- And on the merits, #WhatWeAspireTo is to benefit readers by acting as an encyclopedia, a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge. Democratic political history—who is running or has run for this position? what is/was their platform? how was it received? how have observers of this political scene characterized their importance?—is a very important and useful kind of knowledge for citizens of a democracy, as well as for future historians. (I don't know if you've ever done historical research, but you can probably imagine how useful it would be to have a repository in the digital archive summarizing and collecting the metadata of mainstream contemporary political reporting on, say, what people in Abraham Lincoln's Illinois House district thought about his 1837 "free soil" positions.)
- Note also WP:NOTPAPER—including more articles doesn't require us to give up others. We should determine notability by whether it's possible to write a policy-compliant article on a subject, not whether we think the subject is especially important or worthy. FourViolas ( talk) 14:26, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep There is sufficient RS sourcing about the subject's two campaigns to warrant an article (and because there are two campaigns, there is not a single redirect target). To be clear, the subject was not a major party candidate in either 2010 or 2014, and ran as an independent both times. In addition to the subject's career in politics, there are a handful of articles about his work within the Maine University system. -- Enos733 ( talk) 17:34, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep As myself and others argued elsewhere, there are more than a sufficient number of in-depth and non-trivial sources covering Eliot Cutler.-- TM 21:41, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Merge to Maine gubernatorial election, 2010. As nom, I notice that there is coverage of him, but not enough to satisfy WP:GNG. He is really only known for the election, so it could be merged to a Background of Candidates section there. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rebekah Kennedy for a similar result. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the ample independent sources linked to both above and in Deletion Review?-- TM 22:33, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Merge per Redditaddict. I don't think he would be notable as an attorney - his notability comes from the fact he ran as an independent in that election, and we can update the article there to reflect the coverage he received. SportingFlyer talk 23:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I think there are enough non-trivial sources to merit a page. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 01:18, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Plenty of coverage, as a major candidate in two gubernatorial elections. The basic purpose of the policy on candidates is to prevent articles on people who get 2% of the vote, and also-rans in minor elections, which doesn't apply here. He got over 200,000 votes and was endorsed by most of the major newspapers in the state. We aren't deleting Wendell Wilkie's article because he lost, and we have plenty of articles on people who ran and lost races for less significant offices, who got a small fraction of the votes he got ( Zephyr Teachout for one). His candidacy twice helped elect the most sorry excuse for a lump of human shit to be elected governor in a lifetime. People will want information on what was behind that, and how an independent candidate beat the Democrat by such a margin, in more detail than would be covered in an article on that election (as well as the following one in which he got a much smaller percentage of the vote, but enough to be reasonably labelled a spoiler). To that end this article could use significant expansion, not deletion. - R. fiend ( talk) 07:34, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- @ R. fiend: I see so many things wrong with this.
- 1. What policy says candidates who get over 2% of the vote are notable? See WP:Articles for deletion/Bob Henry Baber and the one I mentioned earlier, WP:Articles for deletion/Rebekah Kennedy.
- 2. 200,000 votes is nothing – Again, see Rebekah Kennedy's deletion discussion. Typically, state newspapers, while they count towards WP:GNG, aren't sufficient.
- 3. Wendell Wilkie is a famous person and major party nominee that went head-to-head with FDR, receiving the highest EV count of all of FDR's opponents. This argument has nothing to do with Cutler - comparing a major party nominee for President vs. an Independent candidate for a state governorship. The 'many articles' we have on lost candidates are notable for reasons outside of their candidacy, such as Lois Combs Weinberg, Robert Kelleher, Richard Ziser, and Kathleen Sullivan Alioto, all of which survived deletion discussions.
- 4. Your final comment is solely about the candidacy is just about the candidacy. That can be merged to the article itself, similarly to the Redirect+Merge with Rebekah Kennedy's discussion. A single candidacy does not make an article notable. See WP:Articles for deletion/Naomi Andrews, WP:Articles for deletion/Joe Manchik, WP:Articles for deletion/Tony Campbell (Maryland politician), WP:Articles for deletion/Shawn Moody, WP:Articles for deletion/Bill Lee (Tennessee politician)... among the dozens of other failed 2018-election-cycle candidates whose pages were merged onto the page of the election that they were known for.
- There is nothing wrong with you supporting a keep, but mention policies and guidelines that he passes with examples before stating all of this information.
Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 08:31, 1 October 2018 (UTC)- Comment The problem with a merge or redirect is that there are two valid election targets. --
Enos733 (
talk) 16:43, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- And he was far more recognized for the 2010 election. Just like Ross Perot is more known for 1992 than 1996. Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 18:14, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment The problem with a merge or redirect is that there are two valid election targets. --
Enos733 (
talk) 16:43, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I initially wasn't sure as he is only notable for the two Maine gubernatorial elections however a quick Google search provides a large amount of sources that seem to support his notability as a former Independent candidate for office. In the WP:NPOL criteria it states that "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" are "presumed to be notable". Whilst Cutler never held office, he came a close second and in the process is still written about in articles such as this in CNN, as well has having received attention even in this Washington Post article during the 2014 election despite his ultimate failure in the race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenleader(2) ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment about merge: A merge is not appropriate because Eliot Cutler was notable before the two gubernatorial elections he was a candidate for.
The two elections:
He received significant coverage before 2010:- A 27 October 1991 article in
Fort Worth Star-Telegram is a 2,525-word profile of him. It notes, "the practice [Cutler] and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues".
It also notes that at age 30, Cutler was "named associate director of the Office of Management and Budget" (OMB) for the Jimmy Carter presidential administration which made him "one of the highest-ranking staffers in OMB". His work at the OMB involved "drafting budgets for the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, the Department of the Interior and other offices".
- An 11 November 1996 article in Lexington Herald-Leader notes that Cutler "is by most accounts an expert on airport issues" and "Cutler made national headlines over the last decade as he represented six cities and neighbors surrounding Denver's old Stapleton International Airport".
- A 16 October 1989 article in The Dallas Morning News notes, "To some of his opponents, Washington attorney Eliot R. Cutler is a modern-day holdup man -- a Jesse James who snatches major concessions for clients who fight airport developments." And "Because of Mr. Cutler's national reputation, officials in Grapevine, Irving and Euless have pooled their resources to hire his law firm in their fight against a proposed $3.5 billion expansion for Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport."
- A 27 October 1991 article in
Fort Worth Star-Telegram is a 2,525-word profile of him. It notes, "the practice [Cutler] and Jeffrey L. Stanfield inaugurated a decade ago has become the most sought-after legal team in the nation for counsel on airport growth issues".
- Keep. I commented in the deletion review, including about sources. Sources in article plus sources in deletion review, and probably more sources here, show obviously meets wp:GNG. Obviously can't be merged away to just one of the articles about gubernatorial elections too. We need to have one article to link to from multiple places where Eliot Cutler is appropriately mentioned. I see mention of Ross Perot, above; yes this is comparable. -- Doncram ( talk) 15:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: It would impoverish numerous existing mainspace articles to delete Wikipedia's article about Cutler. Inbound links to
Eliot Cutler article come from the following mainspace articles (in just the first page of 50 hits from "what links here"):
- Spoiler effect (links | edit)
- Piscataquis County, Maine (links | edit)
- Cape Elizabeth, Maine (links | edit)
- Angus King (links | edit)
- Portland Press Herald (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2010 (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2010 (links | edit)
- Libby Mitchell (links | edit)
- Dennis Damon (links | edit)
- Rosa Scarcelli (links | edit)
- Paul LePage (links | edit)
- Joint Tribal Council of the Passamaquoddy Tribe v. Morton (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2014 (links | edit)
- Edward Suslovic (links | edit)
- Roberto Bernardi (links | edit)
- Rodney S. Quinn (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2014 (links | edit)
- Patrick Flood (links | edit)
- United States gubernatorial elections, 2018 (links | edit)
- Maine gubernatorial election, 2018 (links | edit)
- United States Senate election in Maine, 2018 (links | edit)
- To take one example, the article about Maine politician Patrick Flood mentions, as something significant about Flood, that "Flood endorsed independent Eliot Cutler in the 2014 Maine gubernatorial election." Rather than having a sentence or two or three at the Flood page to explain who is Cutler, it is efficient, editorially, to cover Cutler in a separate article.
- There are more inbound links on the next page of 50 hits from "what links here".
- -- Doncram ( talk) 15:52, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Frankly I'm surprised that this discussion is ongoing. This guy is probably more "notable" than 90% of those people who do have Wikipedia articles, without even considering any candidacy for office. It seems that candidacy in itself is perversely being used to discredit the actual notability of subject who clearly would be notable if they never imagined they might run for anything. Activist ( talk) 21:20, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Meets WP:BASIC and doesn't fall into an WP:NOT or WP:AVOIDVICTIM categories; that's good enough. The WP:LOCALCONSENSUS enshrined in the essay WP:POLOUTCOMES does not overrule the general notability guideline. FourViolas ( talk) 21:25, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Like others, I'm surprised this nomination is ongoing: Cutler has had an immense impact on Maine politics through his historically significant independent run the first time, through spoilering Democratic candidates and allowing a far-right governor to win in Maine twice, and causing such upheaval that Maine actually changed their entire system of voting in a US first so the issues Cutler caused couldn't happen again. The coverage on him is immense. This is the perfect example of why, although unsuccessful candidates are usually not-notable, an attitude of "shoot any and all unelected candidates" leads to ridiculous outcomes. The Drover's Wife ( talk) 01:33, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes WP:GNG with significant coverage in multiple, reliable, and independent sources, spanning a period of several years. Examples include those now in the article and cited above, plus: (1) " Eliot Cutler", Maine: The Magazine, June 2011; (2) " Cutler officially launches campaign for Maine governor", Associated Press, 9/25/13; (3) " Independent Eliot Cutler just helped Democrats in the Maine governor’s race. Sort of", The Washington Post, 10/29/14; (4) " Eliot Cutler: 'No bromance' between me and Paul LePage", MSNBC, 11/9/14; and (5) " Eliot Cutler resigns as head of UMaine System graduate center", 8/31/17. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- Keep I am a strong advocate for the proposition that the vast majority of unelected candidates for political office are not notable and should not have Wikipedia biographies. Cutler is an exception to that general rule. He has been a public figure for over 40 years, received signigicant coverage as an official of the Jimmy Carter administration and is a leading expert in legal cases involving airport construction and expansion. His candidacies in Maine were not simple "he ran and lost" stories but were pivotal in the election victories of Paul LePage, a highly controversial figure on the national political scene. This is another example of the importance of well-informed editorial judgment in making deletion decisions. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:56, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.