- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Seems like sources located have addressed nominator's concerns. I will say that "appears non-notable" makes it appear that an adequate BEFORE might not have been done. That is my impression. Of course, Cunard can find sources that no one else can uncover.
As Czar alludes to, a Merge or Redirection to the book series or author can be discussed on the article talk page. But right now, I see no support for deletion. Liz Read! Talk! 04:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Crossing the Line (novel)
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- Crossing the Line (novel) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Searched and found no additional reliable sources to support notability. Appears non-notable. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment lots of confounders, but I see enough non-RS to verify this, but not more reviews. Cunard can usually find them if they exist, but if they don't, redirecting this to Wess'Har would certainly make sense. Jclemens ( talk) 05:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Redirectto Wess'Har as an alternative to deletion. The sourcing on the series isn't great either, so should be considered for merging into the author's article before nominating others. czar 23:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria says:
SourcesA book is presumed notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria:
- The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.
- Carter, Stuart (2005).
"City of Pearl / Crossing the Line".
SF Site. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
This is a book review of City of Pearl and Crossing the Line, the first two books in the Wess'har book series. The review notes: "Another glorious aspect of these two books is that they're almost the antithesis of everything Trek: humans haring round the universe imposing their morality and point-of-view upon anyone who can listen, and always, eventually, turning out to be right, or at least admirable. And if we're not even admirable then at least we have bigger guns than everyone else to console ourselves with. In Karen Traviss's universe we're seen as being far from admirable and even further from right, and it looks like being a very hard, possibly even fatal, lesson for us to learn. A warning to the unthinking patriots amongst you: you may find these books somewhat unpalatable."
- Bedford, Rob H. (2004-12-20).
"Crossing the Line by Karen Traviss". SFFWorld. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
The discussion between two editors at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 201#SFFWorld usable? is that SFFWorld is a reliable source.
The review notes: "Again, Traviss uses the tool Science Fiction for providing the reader a way to examine a similar problem in our world through the fantastic. ... If City of Pearl was a novel of discovery and alien/racial boundaries, Crossing the Line is a novel of relationships. Another thing that comes more to the forefront in Crossing the Line is the whole theme of relationships. Since the characters have spent a novel together, characters like Aras and Shan develop an engaging believable relationship, considering the genetic make-up of the two characters."
- Letson, Russell (November 2004). "Crossing the Line, Karen Traviss". Locus. Vol. 53, no. 5 #526. p. 67. Archived from the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- Miller, Faren (January 2005). "Crossing the Line, Karen Traviss". Locus. Vol. 54, no. 1 #54. p. 22. Archived from the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- "Crossing the Line".
Science Fiction Chronicle. Vol. 27, no. 3. March 2005. p. 22.
This review is listed here.
- Less significant coverage:
- Barron, Neil; Barron, Tom; Burt, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D.R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid, eds. (2005).
What Do I Read Next 2005: A reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Fantasy, Popular fiction, Romance, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction, Historical, Inspirational, Western. Farmington Hill, Michigan:
Gale. p. 298.
ISBN
0-7876-9021-X.
ISSN
1052-2212. Retrieved 2024-03-19 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes: "Summary: Shan Frankland has already risked her future by choosing to protect the complex alien society orbiting Cavanaugh's Star from the interference of outsiders, and the situation is only growing worse now that humans are arriving in larger numbers. This time some view her as a threat who must be killed if necessary to prevent further resistance."
- Sullivan, Heather I. (2010-08-18). "Unbalanced Nature, Unbounded Bodies, and Unlimited Technology: Ecocriticism and Karen Traviss' Wess'har Series".
Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 30 (4).
doi:
10.1177/0270467610373821.
The article provides a few sentences of coverage about the book. The article notes: "Just how difficult it is to define this balance beyond limiting population, building with minimal landscape alteration, and following a vegan diet becomes clear in Karen Traviss' six-novel wess’har series: City of Pearl, Crossing the Line, The World Before, Matriarch, Ally, and Judge. ... Indeed, the entire second novel, Crossing the Line, illuminates transgressed lines (bodily, species, and political) that are crossed through choice, accident, and desire.
- Barron, Neil; Barron, Tom; Burt, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D.R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid, eds. (2005).
What Do I Read Next 2005: A reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Fantasy, Popular fiction, Romance, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction, Historical, Inspirational, Western. Farmington Hill, Michigan:
Gale. p. 298.
ISBN
0-7876-9021-X.
ISSN
1052-2212. Retrieved 2024-03-19 – via
Internet Archive.
- Reviewing Cunard's sources above, I still think redirection is the best route. I wouldn't consider SFFWorld a reliable source, especially for purposes of notability. We'd need to see the Locus and SF Chronicle sources to know what they are, but based on the listings, Locus looks like the book is reviewed alongside a half-dozen capsule reviews. Altogether we'd need much more to write a complete article on the topic. We're better poised to handle an article on the series out of which any individual book article can split out in summary style if warranted by the sourcing. czar 18:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Here is another source about the subject:
- Day, Thomas (July 2007).
"Les critiques de Bifrost" [Bifrost reviews].
Bifrost (in French). No. 47.
Le Bélial'. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
According to this entry from the Internet Speculative Fiction Database, Transgression is the French title of Crossing the Line. The review notes from Google Translate: "Transgression is an unbalanced novel, suffering from the well-known pathologies of “useless filler” and “meaningless dialogue”. Besides these blunders which will surprise no one as they are so fashionable in contemporary SF, we are here confronted with a terribly poorly written work (poorer, from a stylistic point of view, I hardly see that Alexis Aubenque and the pages people from Closer ). Not to mention the translation. I find it hard to believe that someone with a minimum of general knowledge has reread this massacre (for example the Falklands War is called the Falklands War here)."
The Thomas Day review in Bifrost, the Russell Leston review in Locus, and the Stuart Carter review in SF Site are more than enough for Crossing the Line to meet Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria and Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.
Cunard ( talk) 19:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ Mike Christie, would you have these issues of Locus? If so, can you verify their contents? czar 20:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Day, Thomas (July 2007).
"Les critiques de Bifrost" [Bifrost reviews].
Bifrost (in French). No. 47.
Le Bélial'. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- The Letson review in the November 2004 issue is three quite substantial paragraphs; not a major in-depth review, but definitely not a capsule review. The same is true for the Miller review in January 2005; about a full column on a three-column page. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 22:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep per two Locus sources, SF Site, and Science Fiction Chronicle. (Bifrost's About page doesn't do much to instill confidence in its reliability...) The print sources above are enough to cover the topic somewhere, but I doubt that there's enough here for a dedicated article and I still think this is best covered as part of the series article. But merger/redirection is a matter for topic editors on its talk page. czar 01:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Seems like sources located have addressed nominator's concerns. I will say that "appears non-notable" makes it appear that an adequate BEFORE might not have been done. That is my impression. Of course, Cunard can find sources that no one else can uncover.
As Czar alludes to, a Merge or Redirection to the book series or author can be discussed on the article talk page. But right now, I see no support for deletion. Liz Read! Talk! 04:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Crossing the Line (novel)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Crossing the Line (novel) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Searched and found no additional reliable sources to support notability. Appears non-notable. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 03:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment lots of confounders, but I see enough non-RS to verify this, but not more reviews. Cunard can usually find them if they exist, but if they don't, redirecting this to Wess'Har would certainly make sense. Jclemens ( talk) 05:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Redirectto Wess'Har as an alternative to deletion. The sourcing on the series isn't great either, so should be considered for merging into the author's article before nominating others. czar 23:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria says:
SourcesA book is presumed notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria:
- The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This can include published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book.
- Carter, Stuart (2005).
"City of Pearl / Crossing the Line".
SF Site. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
This is a book review of City of Pearl and Crossing the Line, the first two books in the Wess'har book series. The review notes: "Another glorious aspect of these two books is that they're almost the antithesis of everything Trek: humans haring round the universe imposing their morality and point-of-view upon anyone who can listen, and always, eventually, turning out to be right, or at least admirable. And if we're not even admirable then at least we have bigger guns than everyone else to console ourselves with. In Karen Traviss's universe we're seen as being far from admirable and even further from right, and it looks like being a very hard, possibly even fatal, lesson for us to learn. A warning to the unthinking patriots amongst you: you may find these books somewhat unpalatable."
- Bedford, Rob H. (2004-12-20).
"Crossing the Line by Karen Traviss". SFFWorld. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
The discussion between two editors at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 201#SFFWorld usable? is that SFFWorld is a reliable source.
The review notes: "Again, Traviss uses the tool Science Fiction for providing the reader a way to examine a similar problem in our world through the fantastic. ... If City of Pearl was a novel of discovery and alien/racial boundaries, Crossing the Line is a novel of relationships. Another thing that comes more to the forefront in Crossing the Line is the whole theme of relationships. Since the characters have spent a novel together, characters like Aras and Shan develop an engaging believable relationship, considering the genetic make-up of the two characters."
- Letson, Russell (November 2004). "Crossing the Line, Karen Traviss". Locus. Vol. 53, no. 5 #526. p. 67. Archived from the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- Miller, Faren (January 2005). "Crossing the Line, Karen Traviss". Locus. Vol. 54, no. 1 #54. p. 22. Archived from the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- "Crossing the Line".
Science Fiction Chronicle. Vol. 27, no. 3. March 2005. p. 22.
This review is listed here.
- Less significant coverage:
- Barron, Neil; Barron, Tom; Burt, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D.R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid, eds. (2005).
What Do I Read Next 2005: A reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Fantasy, Popular fiction, Romance, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction, Historical, Inspirational, Western. Farmington Hill, Michigan:
Gale. p. 298.
ISBN
0-7876-9021-X.
ISSN
1052-2212. Retrieved 2024-03-19 – via
Internet Archive.
The book notes: "Summary: Shan Frankland has already risked her future by choosing to protect the complex alien society orbiting Cavanaugh's Star from the interference of outsiders, and the situation is only growing worse now that humans are arriving in larger numbers. This time some view her as a threat who must be killed if necessary to prevent further resistance."
- Sullivan, Heather I. (2010-08-18). "Unbalanced Nature, Unbounded Bodies, and Unlimited Technology: Ecocriticism and Karen Traviss' Wess'har Series".
Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 30 (4).
doi:
10.1177/0270467610373821.
The article provides a few sentences of coverage about the book. The article notes: "Just how difficult it is to define this balance beyond limiting population, building with minimal landscape alteration, and following a vegan diet becomes clear in Karen Traviss' six-novel wess’har series: City of Pearl, Crossing the Line, The World Before, Matriarch, Ally, and Judge. ... Indeed, the entire second novel, Crossing the Line, illuminates transgressed lines (bodily, species, and political) that are crossed through choice, accident, and desire.
- Barron, Neil; Barron, Tom; Burt, Daniel S.; Hudak, Melissa; Meredith, D.R.; Ramsdell, Kristin; Schantz, Tom; Schantz, Enid, eds. (2005).
What Do I Read Next 2005: A reader's Guide to Current Genre Fiction, Fantasy, Popular fiction, Romance, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction, Historical, Inspirational, Western. Farmington Hill, Michigan:
Gale. p. 298.
ISBN
0-7876-9021-X.
ISSN
1052-2212. Retrieved 2024-03-19 – via
Internet Archive.
- Reviewing Cunard's sources above, I still think redirection is the best route. I wouldn't consider SFFWorld a reliable source, especially for purposes of notability. We'd need to see the Locus and SF Chronicle sources to know what they are, but based on the listings, Locus looks like the book is reviewed alongside a half-dozen capsule reviews. Altogether we'd need much more to write a complete article on the topic. We're better poised to handle an article on the series out of which any individual book article can split out in summary style if warranted by the sourcing. czar 18:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Here is another source about the subject:
- Day, Thomas (July 2007).
"Les critiques de Bifrost" [Bifrost reviews].
Bifrost (in French). No. 47.
Le Bélial'. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
According to this entry from the Internet Speculative Fiction Database, Transgression is the French title of Crossing the Line. The review notes from Google Translate: "Transgression is an unbalanced novel, suffering from the well-known pathologies of “useless filler” and “meaningless dialogue”. Besides these blunders which will surprise no one as they are so fashionable in contemporary SF, we are here confronted with a terribly poorly written work (poorer, from a stylistic point of view, I hardly see that Alexis Aubenque and the pages people from Closer ). Not to mention the translation. I find it hard to believe that someone with a minimum of general knowledge has reread this massacre (for example the Falklands War is called the Falklands War here)."
The Thomas Day review in Bifrost, the Russell Leston review in Locus, and the Stuart Carter review in SF Site are more than enough for Crossing the Line to meet Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria and Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.
Cunard ( talk) 19:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ Mike Christie, would you have these issues of Locus? If so, can you verify their contents? czar 20:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Day, Thomas (July 2007).
"Les critiques de Bifrost" [Bifrost reviews].
Bifrost (in French). No. 47.
Le Bélial'. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-19. Retrieved 2024-03-19.
- The Letson review in the November 2004 issue is three quite substantial paragraphs; not a major in-depth review, but definitely not a capsule review. The same is true for the Miller review in January 2005; about a full column on a three-column page. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 22:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep per two Locus sources, SF Site, and Science Fiction Chronicle. (Bifrost's About page doesn't do much to instill confidence in its reliability...) The print sources above are enough to cover the topic somewhere, but I doubt that there's enough here for a dedicated article and I still think this is best covered as part of the series article. But merger/redirection is a matter for topic editors on its talk page. czar 01:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.