- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 13:21, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Ball and Chain (restaurant)
- Ball and Chain (restaurant) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
only local sources for local insittutiton DGG ( talk ) 06:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:46, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:47, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Delete at best as I found some other news sources but there's simply nothing outstandingly better to suggest a better notable article. SwisterTwister talk 07:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 07:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 07:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Delete: For non-local coverage, there's some passing mention in old Billboards, etc, this para about Count Basie's suit (and probably associated newspaper articles), and a paragraph in the NYT, but not enough to satisfactorily pass WP:AUD. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 11:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)- Keep - Here's the thing — this place was established in 1935, it is a local landmark. I'm a little astonished at the Nominator's rationale, frankly... It does not matter a whit if all coverage is local, there is nothing in our General Notability Guideline that says "national good, local bad" — what we seek are multiple, published sources dealing substantially with the subject and of presumed reliability. This article passes GNG based on sources already showing in the footnotes. Carrite ( talk) 16:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
- Keep – The topic meets WP:CORPDEPTH, and this in part an WP:IAR keep !vote per the historical relevance and significance of the topic as a Depression era establishment that was located in "one of the only locales that would allow African-American jazz and blues musicians,” in the city of Miami" and the manner in which "black performers were snuck into the club through a passage from the neighboring hotel despite segregationist laws."
- This keep !vote is also somewhat IAR relative to WP:AUD, which states "Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." It is arguable that the Miami Herald qualifies as a statewide or even national source because it's the second-largest newspaper in South Florida, and is circulated "throughout Latin America and the Caribbean". Outside of the Miami Herald, the topic has received national and statewide coverage (see below), but the depth of coverage is not significant. The CNN article could be argued to be borderline significant coverage, but the content about the restaurant is quite short, with five one sentence paragraphs.
- Ultimately, retention of the article benefits the encyclopedia in a greater manner compared to the merits of its deletion. North America 1000 07:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
National and statewide coverage
- Keep - One of the key venues in Miami's jazz development. Jeremy112233 ( Lettuce- jibber-jabber ?) 07:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in
reliable sources.
- Charles, Laurie (2014-08-07).
"Little Havana's Ball & Chain Club Brings a Colorful History as It Plans to Reopen".
Miami New Times. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
The year was 1935. The Great Depression was tailing off, Miami hosted the inaugural Orange Bowl, and Little Havana's Ball & Chain opened its doors. For the next two decades, the club became among the Magic City's most popular venues, a place where legends Billie Holiday and Chet Baker crooned the night away and jam sessions ran until 5 a.m.
- Balzano, Cata (2015-03-04).
"Little Havana bar offers Saturday night "La Pachanga" musical event".
Miami Herald. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Ball & Chain reopened on September 2014, 57 years after it closed due to a lawsuit by musician Count Basie. On weekends, the musician did day-time performances at the bar, called “jam sessions.” During the show, audience members would join Basie on stage and play along. Basie’s contract had arranged for a payment total of $13,000 for his “jam sessions.” On January 1957, Ball & Chain paid the musician only $5,100. Basie sued for the money the bar owed him and won the dispute, obligating it to pay him the remaining amount, plus an additional $5,000.
Later that year, former Ball & Chain owners, Henry Schechtman and business partner Ray Miller, went out of business and closed. In 1958 and for the following 57 years, the Eight Street establishment underwent various incarnations, including “Copa Lounge Tavern,” a furniture store and “Kamazoo Nightclub.”
Current owners and Miami natives Bill Fuller, his best friend Zack Bush and brother Ben Bush, reopened “Ball & Chain” with the idea of building something affordable, accessible and authentic, while remaining true to the history of the bar and the Cuban neighborhood.
- Chen, Adeline (2015-06-10).
"CNNGo in Miami: From Italian gardens to Little Havana".
CNN. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Ball & Chain has been serving up mojitos and local music for the last eight decades.
Ball & Chain has been serving up mojitos and local music for the last eight decades.
Ball & Chain is a watering hole whose roots go back to the Depression-era 1930s.
While most hit South Beach for their evening entertainment, the nightclub has been a go-to for decades amongst musicians and locals alike.
On any given night, the venue is hosting live performances on two stages, one trending towards salsa and the other towards jazz.
If you're a fan of discovering local artists -- and great mojito -- while traveling, Ball & Chain offers some of the best music the city has to offer.
- Bordsen, John (2015-06-22).
"Miami's Calle Ocho hints at Havana that was, that isn't, and which might come to pass".
Orlando Sentinel.
The Charlotte Observer. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Two iconic buildings in the 1500 block predate Little Havana the Tower Theater, an art-house cinema, and the Ball & Chain, a nightclub that's packed most nights. Try the Ball & Chain in late afternoon. It looks like something from an old Warner Bros. flick, with a high ceiling and quartet of belt-driven fans hung from dark wooden beams. It has the vibe to match: old Latin jazz on the sound system; framed posters of the long-ago appearances there by jazz greats Chet Baker and Count Basie. Jazz combos often start to play near the front door around 5. Out the breezeway in back, a parking lot has been retooled into an outdoor Latin music room. Desi Arnaz would be comfortable crooning "Babalu" to young lovers seated in the reserved banquette area.
Latin music is a highlight of nights at the Ball & Chain backroom, but the music ranges far afield. The Friday evening I was here, a Latin-flavored rock band was playing on stage.
- Charles, Laurie (2014-08-07).
"Little Havana's Ball & Chain Club Brings a Colorful History as It Plans to Reopen".
Miami New Times. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
-
WP:AUD says:
The subject passes WP:AUD.The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary.
The Miami Herald is a major regional newspaper that is also circulated outside the United States. From the Wikipedia article: "Founded in 1903, it is the second largest newspaper in South Florida, serving Miami-Dade, Broward County, and Monroe County. It also circulates throughout Latin America and the Caribbean."
CNN is a national source.
The Orlando Sentinel is a major newspaper that is the "primary newspaper of Orlando, Florida and the Central Florida region".
-
WP:AUD says:
- Deletion vote struck for evidence of Orlando Sentinel, plus Miami Herald being Caribbean regional. The particular CNN article should be considered questionable given that the B&C was not a bar for almost 6 of those 8 decades. Not that matters at this stage, but I'd vote Keep if there were some evidence of coverage of the historical nature of the place (Miami source or otherwise) before the bar got a marketing manager and (re)opened. What's giving it "notability" is the frame/story it inherits and is putting out. If the current bar were named something different, or it were inspired by the original but was in another building, I wonder whether either old or new versions would actually meet notability requirements as bars. Maybe with a focus on the original building as a landmark as with Tower Theater (Miami, Florida)? ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 07:30, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:10, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
- Comments
- 1) Coverage in a regional newspaper from the same region is not enough. There has to be coverage from outside the region--see below about that. Otherwise every restaurant in Manhattan above the coffee shop level for example, would be notable, because the NYT reviews them all. It's part of their local coverage, which even major national newspapers provide.
- 2)There seems to be be some information that shows the 1935-1957 nightclub of this name on the site might be notable. An article about it might well be justified, but including information about the present restaurant is just advertising for the present establishment. No one outside the immediate area would care about the details of the current menu. I note the mention in the NYT & CNN stories, both about the general area of the city and including this restaurant among many, stress the historical aspect.
DGG (
talk ) 23:06, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Coverage in a regional newspaper from the same region is not enough. There has to be coverage from outside the region – I don't agree with this view; however, the Orlando Sentinel is a regional newspaper outside the Miami restaurant's region. Cunard ( talk) 06:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 13:21, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
Ball and Chain (restaurant)
- Ball and Chain (restaurant) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
only local sources for local insittutiton DGG ( talk ) 06:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:46, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Cameron11598 (Talk) 06:47, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Delete at best as I found some other news sources but there's simply nothing outstandingly better to suggest a better notable article. SwisterTwister talk 07:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 07:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 07:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Delete: For non-local coverage, there's some passing mention in old Billboards, etc, this para about Count Basie's suit (and probably associated newspaper articles), and a paragraph in the NYT, but not enough to satisfactorily pass WP:AUD. ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 11:13, 27 May 2016 (UTC)- Keep - Here's the thing — this place was established in 1935, it is a local landmark. I'm a little astonished at the Nominator's rationale, frankly... It does not matter a whit if all coverage is local, there is nothing in our General Notability Guideline that says "national good, local bad" — what we seek are multiple, published sources dealing substantially with the subject and of presumed reliability. This article passes GNG based on sources already showing in the footnotes. Carrite ( talk) 16:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
- Keep – The topic meets WP:CORPDEPTH, and this in part an WP:IAR keep !vote per the historical relevance and significance of the topic as a Depression era establishment that was located in "one of the only locales that would allow African-American jazz and blues musicians,” in the city of Miami" and the manner in which "black performers were snuck into the club through a passage from the neighboring hotel despite segregationist laws."
- This keep !vote is also somewhat IAR relative to WP:AUD, which states "Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." It is arguable that the Miami Herald qualifies as a statewide or even national source because it's the second-largest newspaper in South Florida, and is circulated "throughout Latin America and the Caribbean". Outside of the Miami Herald, the topic has received national and statewide coverage (see below), but the depth of coverage is not significant. The CNN article could be argued to be borderline significant coverage, but the content about the restaurant is quite short, with five one sentence paragraphs.
- Ultimately, retention of the article benefits the encyclopedia in a greater manner compared to the merits of its deletion. North America 1000 07:23, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
National and statewide coverage
- Keep - One of the key venues in Miami's jazz development. Jeremy112233 ( Lettuce- jibber-jabber ?) 07:33, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in
reliable sources.
- Charles, Laurie (2014-08-07).
"Little Havana's Ball & Chain Club Brings a Colorful History as It Plans to Reopen".
Miami New Times. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
The year was 1935. The Great Depression was tailing off, Miami hosted the inaugural Orange Bowl, and Little Havana's Ball & Chain opened its doors. For the next two decades, the club became among the Magic City's most popular venues, a place where legends Billie Holiday and Chet Baker crooned the night away and jam sessions ran until 5 a.m.
- Balzano, Cata (2015-03-04).
"Little Havana bar offers Saturday night "La Pachanga" musical event".
Miami Herald. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Ball & Chain reopened on September 2014, 57 years after it closed due to a lawsuit by musician Count Basie. On weekends, the musician did day-time performances at the bar, called “jam sessions.” During the show, audience members would join Basie on stage and play along. Basie’s contract had arranged for a payment total of $13,000 for his “jam sessions.” On January 1957, Ball & Chain paid the musician only $5,100. Basie sued for the money the bar owed him and won the dispute, obligating it to pay him the remaining amount, plus an additional $5,000.
Later that year, former Ball & Chain owners, Henry Schechtman and business partner Ray Miller, went out of business and closed. In 1958 and for the following 57 years, the Eight Street establishment underwent various incarnations, including “Copa Lounge Tavern,” a furniture store and “Kamazoo Nightclub.”
Current owners and Miami natives Bill Fuller, his best friend Zack Bush and brother Ben Bush, reopened “Ball & Chain” with the idea of building something affordable, accessible and authentic, while remaining true to the history of the bar and the Cuban neighborhood.
- Chen, Adeline (2015-06-10).
"CNNGo in Miami: From Italian gardens to Little Havana".
CNN. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Ball & Chain has been serving up mojitos and local music for the last eight decades.
Ball & Chain has been serving up mojitos and local music for the last eight decades.
Ball & Chain is a watering hole whose roots go back to the Depression-era 1930s.
While most hit South Beach for their evening entertainment, the nightclub has been a go-to for decades amongst musicians and locals alike.
On any given night, the venue is hosting live performances on two stages, one trending towards salsa and the other towards jazz.
If you're a fan of discovering local artists -- and great mojito -- while traveling, Ball & Chain offers some of the best music the city has to offer.
- Bordsen, John (2015-06-22).
"Miami's Calle Ocho hints at Havana that was, that isn't, and which might come to pass".
Orlando Sentinel.
The Charlotte Observer. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
The article notes:
Two iconic buildings in the 1500 block predate Little Havana the Tower Theater, an art-house cinema, and the Ball & Chain, a nightclub that's packed most nights. Try the Ball & Chain in late afternoon. It looks like something from an old Warner Bros. flick, with a high ceiling and quartet of belt-driven fans hung from dark wooden beams. It has the vibe to match: old Latin jazz on the sound system; framed posters of the long-ago appearances there by jazz greats Chet Baker and Count Basie. Jazz combos often start to play near the front door around 5. Out the breezeway in back, a parking lot has been retooled into an outdoor Latin music room. Desi Arnaz would be comfortable crooning "Babalu" to young lovers seated in the reserved banquette area.
Latin music is a highlight of nights at the Ball & Chain backroom, but the music ranges far afield. The Friday evening I was here, a Latin-flavored rock band was playing on stage.
- Charles, Laurie (2014-08-07).
"Little Havana's Ball & Chain Club Brings a Colorful History as It Plans to Reopen".
Miami New Times. Archived from
the original on 2016-06-04. Retrieved 2016-06-04.
-
WP:AUD says:
The subject passes WP:AUD.The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary.
The Miami Herald is a major regional newspaper that is also circulated outside the United States. From the Wikipedia article: "Founded in 1903, it is the second largest newspaper in South Florida, serving Miami-Dade, Broward County, and Monroe County. It also circulates throughout Latin America and the Caribbean."
CNN is a national source.
The Orlando Sentinel is a major newspaper that is the "primary newspaper of Orlando, Florida and the Central Florida region".
-
WP:AUD says:
- Deletion vote struck for evidence of Orlando Sentinel, plus Miami Herald being Caribbean regional. The particular CNN article should be considered questionable given that the B&C was not a bar for almost 6 of those 8 decades. Not that matters at this stage, but I'd vote Keep if there were some evidence of coverage of the historical nature of the place (Miami source or otherwise) before the bar got a marketing manager and (re)opened. What's giving it "notability" is the frame/story it inherits and is putting out. If the current bar were named something different, or it were inspired by the original but was in another building, I wonder whether either old or new versions would actually meet notability requirements as bars. Maybe with a focus on the original building as a landmark as with Tower Theater (Miami, Florida)? ~ Hydronium~Hydroxide~ (Talk)~ 07:30, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:10, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
- Comments
- 1) Coverage in a regional newspaper from the same region is not enough. There has to be coverage from outside the region--see below about that. Otherwise every restaurant in Manhattan above the coffee shop level for example, would be notable, because the NYT reviews them all. It's part of their local coverage, which even major national newspapers provide.
- 2)There seems to be be some information that shows the 1935-1957 nightclub of this name on the site might be notable. An article about it might well be justified, but including information about the present restaurant is just advertising for the present establishment. No one outside the immediate area would care about the details of the current menu. I note the mention in the NYT & CNN stories, both about the general area of the city and including this restaurant among many, stress the historical aspect.
DGG (
talk ) 23:06, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Coverage in a regional newspaper from the same region is not enough. There has to be coverage from outside the region – I don't agree with this view; however, the Orlando Sentinel is a regional newspaper outside the Miami restaurant's region. Cunard ( talk) 06:10, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.