- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Alexander Oliver
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Article has no indication of notability other than being a 'soldier in the Revolutionary War', and fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG. Only one inline citation from time of creation 12 years ago. Reference list includes only passing references, non-reliable or primary sources (such as muster roll). A GB search returns several books that only say of him "Colonel Alexander Oliver, wife, and eleven children, from the west part of Massachusetts," or something similar. The largest account found simply says, "Colonel Alexander Oliver, of Massachusetts, and a valiant soldier during the Revolutionary war came to Belpre in 1789 and settled on lot No. 19, just below what is now known as Cedarville. There were eleven children, all of whom settled in Ohio." This is far short of the substantial coverage required for notability. The only thing that goes beyond this is a Marietta College source quoting a resolution rebuking him for not paying the money to then he had committed to, which again does little for notability. The majority of the content is not found in any of the cited sources, nor any others readily available, and appears to be drawn from someone's personal genealogy notes. Recently an IP questioned whether some details haven't been attributed to the wrong Alexander Oliver, but so little has been published on him that it would require WP:OR to assess this. It is orphaned except for a single list. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment -- I see little in this article to qualify him as notable. My recollection was that colonels are not notable per se. Participation in the Ohio river expedition might be if he had a leadership role, but what we have here on that is a mere stub. Peterkingiron ( talk) 17:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- WP:SOLDIER says generals and equivalent. I didn't find a single secondary source that even named him in connection with the expedition (and I am not even sure the 'expedition' itself is notable, as opposed to just a few guys out canoeing that got mentioned in one of their personal journals that was later published, and is being dressed up as an important exploration - I just don't know). The only WP:RS secondary sources I found either 1) made some bland statement that he and his wife came to Ohio from Western Mass and had children, or else 2) stated that the subject of the sentence married one of his Oliver's daughters without saying anything more about the father-in-law. Agricolae ( talk) 02:44, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete: per Nom and User:Peterkingiron that subject lacks notability (evidenced by reliable sources) for a stand alone article. The article has unsourced content of the subject possibly being a "Founding Father" of Belpre, Ohio but I couldn't corroborate this. I am all for historic articles as long as they have sourcing. A journal and muster role does not reach that criteria. There is a list of sources in the "Citations" section and if someone can access any of these to give verifiable evidence of notability I would appreciate it. Otr500 ( talk) 19:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
- 1) Lineage Book - not seen. Volume and year don't match (vol 41 was in 1915 and does not have claimed info; 1928 was vols 98-104 and not finding these online due to copyright), but this is not WP:RS - simply reprinted member-submitted lineage and brief ancestor biography, at the time usually based on nothing more than personal assertion. DAR database summarizes the information contained as "Alexander Oliver born on 30 - Nov - 1744 at Worcester Co MA died at OH on 2 - Sep - 1828 and his ( 1st ) wife Mary Warner born on - ____ - 1750 at _____ died at _______________ on - ____ - 1808 married on 2 - May - 1769" 2) Sherman - (flawed ref, missing vol [#3]) a statement that Calvin Shepard married Mahala Oliver, "daughter of (Col.) Alexander and Mary (Warner) Oliver." 3) Cleave's Biographical Cyclopaedia - "his grandfather Col. Alexander Oliver served in that war [Am. Revol.] at the head of a volunteer regiment." that's it. 4) Records of the Revolutionary War - list of "officers entitled to half-pay", includes "Oliver, Alexander, Lieut. [Mass.]". 5) An Historical Address - list of Original Members of the Society of Cincinnatus, includes name "Oliver, Alexander, Ensign". 6) History of Belpre - list of Revolutionary War soldiers in the county, includes, "Col. Alexander Oliver of Mass." Elsewhere in the book it names "Col. Alexander Oliver, wife, and eleven children" (then names the children). That is the whole list and note that these may not even refer to the same man - there were three Rev War Alexander Olivers. Agricolae ( talk) 19:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete none of the sources come close to providing the comprehensive coverage we would need to establish notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. ♠ PMC♠ (talk) 05:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Alexander Oliver
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Alexander Oliver ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article has no indication of notability other than being a 'soldier in the Revolutionary War', and fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG. Only one inline citation from time of creation 12 years ago. Reference list includes only passing references, non-reliable or primary sources (such as muster roll). A GB search returns several books that only say of him "Colonel Alexander Oliver, wife, and eleven children, from the west part of Massachusetts," or something similar. The largest account found simply says, "Colonel Alexander Oliver, of Massachusetts, and a valiant soldier during the Revolutionary war came to Belpre in 1789 and settled on lot No. 19, just below what is now known as Cedarville. There were eleven children, all of whom settled in Ohio." This is far short of the substantial coverage required for notability. The only thing that goes beyond this is a Marietta College source quoting a resolution rebuking him for not paying the money to then he had committed to, which again does little for notability. The majority of the content is not found in any of the cited sources, nor any others readily available, and appears to be drawn from someone's personal genealogy notes. Recently an IP questioned whether some details haven't been attributed to the wrong Alexander Oliver, but so little has been published on him that it would require WP:OR to assess this. It is orphaned except for a single list. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. Agricolae ( talk) 16:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment -- I see little in this article to qualify him as notable. My recollection was that colonels are not notable per se. Participation in the Ohio river expedition might be if he had a leadership role, but what we have here on that is a mere stub. Peterkingiron ( talk) 17:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- WP:SOLDIER says generals and equivalent. I didn't find a single secondary source that even named him in connection with the expedition (and I am not even sure the 'expedition' itself is notable, as opposed to just a few guys out canoeing that got mentioned in one of their personal journals that was later published, and is being dressed up as an important exploration - I just don't know). The only WP:RS secondary sources I found either 1) made some bland statement that he and his wife came to Ohio from Western Mass and had children, or else 2) stated that the subject of the sentence married one of his Oliver's daughters without saying anything more about the father-in-law. Agricolae ( talk) 02:44, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete: per Nom and User:Peterkingiron that subject lacks notability (evidenced by reliable sources) for a stand alone article. The article has unsourced content of the subject possibly being a "Founding Father" of Belpre, Ohio but I couldn't corroborate this. I am all for historic articles as long as they have sourcing. A journal and muster role does not reach that criteria. There is a list of sources in the "Citations" section and if someone can access any of these to give verifiable evidence of notability I would appreciate it. Otr500 ( talk) 19:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
- 1) Lineage Book - not seen. Volume and year don't match (vol 41 was in 1915 and does not have claimed info; 1928 was vols 98-104 and not finding these online due to copyright), but this is not WP:RS - simply reprinted member-submitted lineage and brief ancestor biography, at the time usually based on nothing more than personal assertion. DAR database summarizes the information contained as "Alexander Oliver born on 30 - Nov - 1744 at Worcester Co MA died at OH on 2 - Sep - 1828 and his ( 1st ) wife Mary Warner born on - ____ - 1750 at _____ died at _______________ on - ____ - 1808 married on 2 - May - 1769" 2) Sherman - (flawed ref, missing vol [#3]) a statement that Calvin Shepard married Mahala Oliver, "daughter of (Col.) Alexander and Mary (Warner) Oliver." 3) Cleave's Biographical Cyclopaedia - "his grandfather Col. Alexander Oliver served in that war [Am. Revol.] at the head of a volunteer regiment." that's it. 4) Records of the Revolutionary War - list of "officers entitled to half-pay", includes "Oliver, Alexander, Lieut. [Mass.]". 5) An Historical Address - list of Original Members of the Society of Cincinnatus, includes name "Oliver, Alexander, Ensign". 6) History of Belpre - list of Revolutionary War soldiers in the county, includes, "Col. Alexander Oliver of Mass." Elsewhere in the book it names "Col. Alexander Oliver, wife, and eleven children" (then names the children). That is the whole list and note that these may not even refer to the same man - there were three Rev War Alexander Olivers. Agricolae ( talk) 19:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete none of the sources come close to providing the comprehensive coverage we would need to establish notability. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.