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First few days of discussion
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User: csloat ( talk) reverted an edit of mine with this edit summery: rv trolling, which is a violation of WP:civility. [1] [2]. No matter how strongly Commodore Sloat disagrees with my editing, that is no excuse for an accusation of trolling. (I have considered taking this complaint to AN/I because Commodore Sloat has a long history of incivility.) Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 21:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC) By the way Commodore Sloat has insinuated that I have edited the article both with my user name and as an IP user [3]. If anyone is inclined to believe that, I invite a check user. That accusation is also a violation of WP:civility, and totally disregards WP:assume good faith. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 22:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Note: User:Jayjg has stated he considers the use of the word trolling uncivil. Talk:New_antisemitism#trolling_from_anon_ip_.2B_established_user. Proposal: I suggest csloat agree to refrain from the use of the term trolling -- perhaps substituting failing to achieve consensus. Additionally, I suggest Malcolm Schosha] agree to follow the consensus for the article in question. Fair enough? Gerardw ( talk) 16:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
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Proposal #2: I suggest csloat agree to refrain from the use of the term trolling -- perhaps substituting failing to achieve consensus and the Wikiquette entry closed. Fair enough? Gerardw ( talk) 19:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
While my comment may not actually help, and I haven't engaged in the above discussion, I have seen CS frequently be a bit on the blue side in his approach to civility. Just a small comment though; don't heed this too much. Scarian Call me Pat! 21:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Commodore Sloat, seems a little silly when accusing me of edit warring, when it is he who just got a three month topic ban because of his edit warring [6]. As can be seen in Commodore Sloat's edit above, he is still calling my editing of the article "trolling". I will continue to edit the article as I see best, and as a result, I am sure this discussion here will soon have a part two. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 12:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The consensus is far from clear, and my position on that edit has been clearly explained, and is based in WP guidelines (i,e. that Tariq Ali is not a WP:reliable source on the subject of any aspect of antisemitism). Another editor has recently question the publisher of the source [7], and this morning another editor yet deleted the same disputed material [8]. So the claim of consensus is rather exaggerated. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
If Commodore Sloat's apology still stands (and that is not entirely clear), I accept....even if it does consist mostly of qualifiers and disclaimers. I regret it if, in the process of making my point, I tramped all over Commodore Sloat's feelings with my hobnail boots. And, thanks also for the patience of those editors of this noticeboard who have facilitated a resolution. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 19:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Note: It has only been determined a few hundred times that a description of "trolling" or being called a "troll" is not uncivil in and of itself. Trolling is a sequence of events or intent, as per an essay. Any attempt to degrade another editor, or to force them to stop editing because of differences in opinion are a violation of WP:NPA. From what I see, there's an awful lot of that from all sides. You all know better than that. I would prefer to see this closed, and people get on to actually editing - let's call it "coincidental minors" (which you'll understand if you know hockey) ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 19:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Let's give sloat an opportunity to respond, but I believe that there is a renewed spirit of cooperation and WP:AGF from both main parties and in essence this can be closed. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I regret that I erred in failing to follow Editor responding instructions properly which I changed the section tag to stuck [3] in that I failed to provide the suggested recommendations for continuing. In hindsight, stale would have been the appropriate tag. I, too, agree that this alert should be closed. As I understand the process, we can only consider it resolved when both csloat and Malcolm Schosha come to agreement. This seems unlikely, as csloat won't even simply agree not to use the term troll when less Civility-gray alternates exist, and Malcolm Schosha wouldn't even simply agree follow consensus. [4]. It is probably best at this point to recuse myself from further discussion and will do so. Best wishes for a happy to all parties and contributing editors. Gerardw ( talk) 01:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
It's now obvious that csloat fails to accept that this complaint has merit, but there is no point in pursuing this matter any further. Civility is a serious matter - so much so, that it forms a core policy. Since both editors are now aware of their actions and behaviours that are considered inappropriate and disruptive, both can consider themselves warned. I expect that those editors that have learned something won't reappear here. I recommend that this Alert is closed if Malcolm agrees. csloat has already indicated he wants this incident closed. -- HighKing ( talk) 13:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Enough - this is childish. This Alert is closed. Don't leave the rest of the community with the impression that you are unable to behave civilly and appropriately, or that you belong in a playground. Draw a line, move on. -- HighKing ( talk) 18:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This anon user is being very hostile regarding edits made on Radiohead, and is refusing to assume good faith. I went to his talk page and tried to point out that he was acting rather rudely, and directed him to WP:GOODFAITH, but he simply became even more hostile and called my message on his talk page 'abuse'. I have left another message to him, telling him that it was a very normal edit dispute over wording and nothing to get upset about and left him another link to WP:GOODFAITH, but I really don't think he's even going to look at the link I gave him. Zazaban ( talk) 23:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't recall having ever had any dealings with User:CadenS before, but I am shocked at his/her comments about me at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Eric Wone and User talk:CadenS. Apparently my nomination of Robert Eric Wone for deletion, due to my concerns about BLP violations, is some sort of conspiracy to censor Wikipedia because I have an agenda to make sure that all rapes of straight men by gay men not be reported. I didn't even know, and do not know as of this minute, that Wone was straight and the people the article is trying so very hard to accuse of his murder without saying so, are gay. Little Red Riding Hood talk 07:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
CadenS has removed my notification of this discussion from his Talk page without comment or coming here to discuss it: [12]. Little Red Riding Hood talk 08:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
::The wording of the close is entirely inappropriate.
Little Red Riding Hood
talk 18:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
As per guidelines regarding NPOV disputes, I have posted an RfC on the Quebec talk page regarding two possible POV statements on the Quebec article and made bold edits altering them. Bosonic dressing reverted these edits. I've since added POV tags identifying the passages and continued the discussion on the talk page. Bosonic dressing ( talk) continues not only to revert edits (which is perfectly okay), but continually removes POV tags (which is not).
The editor also overtly and continually states that he does this because he challenges my good faith in this dispute:
Please remind Bosonic dressing to always maintain civility on the discussion board and assume assume good faith on my part by keeping dispute tags on contested items until this dispute has been resolved; POV tags are entirely appropriate in such an ongoing discussion. Self-reverting and restoring the tags would do much to show that the editor is now assuming good faith. -- soulscanner ( talk) 08:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't see a civility issue. I see a budding edit war being cast as a civility issue. The discussion on [[Talk::Quebec]] seems to be tending towards the consensus removal of the tags, therefore I don't see removing the tags as evidence of a lack of good faith, especially as Bosonic dressing is contributing the talk page discussion. Gerardw ( talk) 18:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Could someone possibly have a word with User:ThuranX regarding his rather robust language on Talk:Egon Schiele? As far as I know I have no previous history with the user. I removed what seemed a poor and unreferenced section of the article, he restored it, then got rather heated when I asked him to reference it. It's all there and at User talk:ThuranX#Egon Schiele. I don't think this sort of minor dispute requires that sort of passion, nor is this what I look for in an encyclopedic discussion. -- John ( talk) 06:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Issue escalated to AN/I marking NWQA. Gerardw ( talk) 01:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
This issue has been going on for some time now, and I am getting desperate. Adolf Hitler was a member of the Catholic Church all his life, which has one historian led to the statement, that Hitler "can be classified as nominally Catholic." I've been trying to work this into the article Adolf Hitler. There were several objections to it (and several people who agreed), but my arguments have apparently convinced all editors but one. This one, however, appears to immune to rational argumentation. I spent hours writing on the talk page and searching additional literature, but this had no effect. Furthermore, I have repeatedly been accused of POV-Pushing in the edit summary: [13], [14] To me it appears as if User:Str1977 assumes bad faith. I am honestly only trying to improve the coverage of the topic ( Religion in Nazi Germany) on Wikipedia. This discussion is taking up valuable time that could be used for writing articles; but even worse, it makes me doubt that it has any purpose to contribute. Zara1709 ( talk) 12:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing the article history, it appears both User:Zara1709 and User:Str1977 have violated 3rr. The only other editor to contribute to Talk:Adolf_Hitler#Hitler.2C_nominally_Catholic.3F states religion in the infobox is not a good idea because it is unrelated to Hitler's notability. One of User:Str1977 edits does leave in the fact that Hitler never left the Catholic church. I see an edit war and no evidence of not assuming good faith. I'd recommend continuing the discussion at Talk:Adolf Hitler and completing the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies process. Gerardw ( talk) 13:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If I count the reverts correctly we're both at 3. But I have to insist that I am not pushing a certain POV in bad faith. I would be willing to grant the Str1977 has a different view concerning the application of wp:NPOV, but he is not willing to grant the same thing to me.And I tried to list the issue at the rfc noticeboard- it didn't work. Zara1709 ( talk) 13:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
This user is WP:STALKing me, reverting all my edits. He has also been suspected being a sockpuppetry. He is also adding term "Assyrian" in all Syriac related articles such as: [15] [16] [17] and many articles more. We already decided to use term Assyrian-Syriac on persons, and term Syriac for villages and the people on Turkey and Syria related articles and term Assyrian on Iraq and Iran-realted articles. Both terms refers to the same group but to avoid vandalism from Assyrian and syriac fanatics, we made this descision on the assyrian syriac cooperation board. what can we do about this user, since he is an assyrian fanatic, that does not provide anything to wikipedia? AramaeanSyriac ([[User talk:AramaeanSyriac|talk]]) 23:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Funny and you are removing assyrian from all the other articles [18] this is just one example of you contradicting yourself, there is more would you like for me to provide them here?. Why are you deleting comments off your page in regards to being blocked and warned, are you trying to hide your history, [19] The Assyrian/Syriac coop board has been inactive for months, get yourself updated with recent revisions done lately with adding assyrian/syriac to villages, singers, geographical palce, stop contradicting yourself, [20] , [21], [22] and so on, the source you have used does not state his name anywhere, stop making up stuff. Ninevite ( talk) 00:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to point out that Nineveh 209 ( talk · contribs) should practice on being polite or at least not being impolite. Indeed he seems to have been stalking me to, calling me a bigot and incompetent every time he has the chance to do so. I must say I don't appreciate it. [23], [24], [25], [26]. And even here above he calls people for bigot and acusses someone of being racist, which isn't the first time either.
Also he has previosuly attacked me in an other language than English which has been noticed here [27]. The TriZ ( talk) 00:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to bring to your notice the following part of a conversation. The conversation was held on one of the hottest Talk pages of the moment, The Israel-Gaza conflict. I would like to complain about the language of user Leladax. Please see for yourself.
{begin of quote}
Yeah, VERY unbiased. I just watched a report in its front page showing the borders of Israel encompassing all Palestinian territories. Go back into your Hebrew fanaticism close circle cause here you're only being ridiculed publicly.
Leladax (
talk) 17:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
{end of quote}
I agree. Debresser ( talk) 13:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Unarchived per user request I went to WQA for help Gerardw ( talk) 23:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Both have accused me of canvassing at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos (see the bottom of the page...it's a long read) when I have indeed done no such thing. Thoughts on how to handle it? — BQZip01 — talk 02:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
[28] [29]. Notifying users. My question really is just a request for feedback as to what others recommend I should do. — BQZip01 — talk 03:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Not seeing evidence of civility violation by User:ESkog and User:Hammersoft. Remember WP:AGF I recommend you continue discussion on appropriate talk page. Gerardw ( talk) 03:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
BQZip01 did canvass this poll but I think he did so accidently and probably doesn't realise he did. He notified all previous participants in the RFC (myself included and I am diametrically opposed to his opinion on the issue in question) which is a reasonable thing to do. What he likely did not realise is that many of the previous participants had come along only because another editor had canvassed them and the relevant Wikiproject. By notifying previous particpants, BQZip01 inadvertently repeated this previous attempt to skew the RFC. I don't think he can reasonably be held responsible for this effect. CIreland ( talk) 03:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
As noted, WP:CANVASS has neutral and negative implications. As already noted, the complainant may have inadvertantly canvassed, and it was brought to their attention instead of taking it to WP:ANI; that's mighty neighbourly of the other editors, and is very much the way Wikipedia should work (politely advising of an issue, rather than running to the "police"). The original complainant's stated lack of desire to bring the issue to WQA in lieu of discussing with the other editors is truly an appalling violation of the spirit of Wikipedia. We all edit collaboratively. The above addition of the "shotgun" effect (throwing a bunch of things out there, hoping one will hit the target) is unfortunate. I will agree, that let's say only 3 people are editing an article, and 2 of those 3 say "no", it's not quite "officially" consensus because of !vote, but it's enough consensus in most cases (4 !votes vs 2 !votes is a different story). This is a collaborative encyclopedia. Get used to collaborating. Get used to having your edits challenged. This is how it works. On top of that, as "slander" implies a legal tone, I would highly recommend those accusations be struck as per WP:NLT, as that is a serious violation of policy and can be immediately dealt with under WP:ANI. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Ibaranoff24 has acted in an uncivil manner towards me on the Mudvayne talk page and edit summaries. He has used unnecessary intimidating language (“You have been warned about this”, when I am simply inserting sources [31]), accused me on multiple occasions of “strongarming my POV” (when again all I’m doing is adding sources), here [32] here [33] and here [34], and claimed that I “lie to justify flagrant attempts to force your own opinion” here [35]. Prophaniti ( talk) 08:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment Two points. First, this is an aggressively trivial content issue that is hardly worth the emotional engagement that has been spawned. Everyone should calm down. Second and more importantly, this is clearly not a civility violation. It is itself a breach of wiki decorum to accuse of other editors of incivility when that is not the case. I will assume good faith here and accept that the editor who brought this complaint genuinely believed that there was a breach of civility. However, as several uninvolved editors have observed, it is simply not the case. Continued insistence risks becoming willfully vexatious bordering on disruptive. I suggest this be archived and the matter be allowed to work itself out on the talk page of the article in question. Eusebeus ( talk) 22:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Concur with the opinion of the third party editors. Disagreement is not inherently uncivil. Both parties showed Good faith at the beginning and got carried away with the edit war without achieving consensus or requesting assistance from other editors. Prophaniti it is good that you asked for assistance. This is just not the assistance you need. Gerardw ( talk) 23:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
There is an editor User:Orangemarlin who is making unnecessarily confrontational comments in [ [36]]. This person seems to adopt this tone a lot but he seems to me to be crossing the line here.-- AssegaiAli ( talk) 20:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing Talk:Minoan_eruption#BC.2FAD_convention, I'm seeing escalating rhetoric from both parties, but User:Orangemarlin does appear to be pushing the envelope. Gerardw ( talk) 19:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Is this stuck or resolved? There have been no additional comments for a number of days. -- HighKing ( talk) 14:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I will recuse myself from further discussion with this alert as it appears that there is a dispute between myself and Orangemarlin elsewhere. -- HighKing ( talk) 18:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hope this is the right forum, but there seems to be a running POV dispute and tendentious editing behavior between two editors, User:Spotfixer and User:Schrandit. It ranges across many articles but recent examples include Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., Conscience clause (medical), George Harrison (Irish Republican), and Anti-Mexican sentiment. Also see their talk pages at User_talk:Schrandit and Spotfixer's pre-blanking Talk page. I don't really know what to call this behavior, but it's disrupting multiple articles and seems to be both topical and personal. Is it possible for a more experienced editor to help them chill? Regards, Chuckiesdad 06:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Schrandit has been warned for calling an editor a "jerk". Spotfixer is entitled to remove some items from his talkpage, except where officially advised not to (especially regarding blocks). Also, the information should not be removed, it should be archived. Referring to editors as "wannabes" is borderline uncivil. Spotfixer has additional mention elsewhere. All involved editors should be considered warned. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
discussion regarding warning posted by Wikiquette editor
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Spotfixer has also [ been warned] Gerardw ( talk) 19:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
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(outdent)
Meanwhile, back at the article where Schrandit was recently and relevantly uncivil, he's edit-warring by reverting without explanation. This is part of his already-documented rule violations in the form of adding bogus cite requests, such as his infamous demand that a cite be cited.
The Schrandit problem needs to be fixed and your hesitancy to block him for incivility and edit-warring is only encouraging him. In fact, he ran around and reverted many of my edits while I was blocked, so he's taking your actions as an endorsement of his WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE violations. He's been taught to ignore all warnings and just keep warring.
Do you have any plans for actions that will put out the fire you've fanned? Spotfixer ( talk) 19:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't expect anyone to provide anyone an apology at this point in time (except for dragging this thread on longer than it needs to). Both sides have been uncivil. Warnings were given. Case is f'ing-closed. Further "demands" for an apology is disruptive to this project overall. Don't think it's fair? Tough, we're no longer 5 years old, which is the last time life was "fair". ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 01:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have never "demanded a citation for a citation", that is slanderous. Please, everyone, check me on my aforementioned edit, I'm very confident it is within Wikipedia guidelines, I apologize if I am mistaken - Schrandit ( talk) 20:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
( talk) 16:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)}} User:Dbachmann, in responding to a talk page section regarding a recently closed featured article review in which the article in question was demoted( Wikipedia:Featured article review/Growth of the Old Swiss Confederacy/archive1), described the the decision as idiotic. Seeing as I am the user that initiated the procedure, it is impossible not to take this as a WP:personal attack. Can a third party please leave him a friendly reminder the wikipedia policies regarding civility also apply to him? Thanks. ʄ!• ¿talk? 10:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
As noted, calling a decision idiotic is not inherently uncivil. Tagging NWQA. Gerardw ( talk) 16:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Welcome to wikipedia, where up is down and black is white. Unbelievable. ʄ!• ¿talk? 16:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I can sum this up in one word: Hivemind. LOL.
Btw
User:Nunh-huh, "phrasing your objections more exactly"? Funny how you are guilty of the very thing you (falsely) accuse me of. Feigning ignorance as to what I'm saying is
trolling 101. My objections were made explicit. You are hung up on one aspect of what I was saying for whatever reason(perceived prejudice against foreign languages/love of switzerland/whatever) and ignoring everything else.
In conclusion this process was, if I may appropriate the words of someone else for an actual valid circumstance, idiotic.
By all means unleash the hypocrisy in your clamoring to block me for saying this.
ʄ!•
¿talk? 18:20, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Calling an edit "idiotic" is uncivil, and is a personal attack. If you don't believe that, try saying that to your boss about his/her work, and see what happens. That sort of insulting comment is very common from Dbachmann, and if anyone doubts it I can give some diff from my own disagreements with him. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 20:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
And, by the way, you should have mentioned that if that nice Dbachmann does not respond to requests for civility; the issue can be taken to AN/I, where it will be seen by many more people than here, and some of those who see it might have their own experiences with his incivility. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 20:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I understand that it has been closed. But I consider my comment on the incivility of Dbachmann to be on the mark. He knew who the comment was directed at, but he is very good at making it sound as though his comments are just a general comments sent into space. Let me repeat, once more what I wrote above because I consider it important: "Calling an edit "idiotic" is uncivil, and is a personal attack. If you don't believe that, try saying that to your boss about his/her work, and see what happens." This is simple, but important to understand. A problem with WP is the high concentration of computer geeks with good intelligence, but little in the way of social skills. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 13:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Perhaps the place to discuss the general question of the incivility of calling any edit "idiotic" would be Wikipedia talk:Civility. Gerardw ( talk) 21:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think this calls for any admin action. It was a mildly uncivil thing to say. By the bye, the Wikipedia-friendly word for idiotic is unsupported. Gwen Gale ( talk) 11:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
A clever, kind and wise person can easily do something idiotic, like editing Wikipedia. The comment was mildly untowards, not something I'd say (I hope), but not a personal attack and not wantonly uncivil. I think you should drop this, Malcolm, hastily. Gwen Gale ( talk) 15:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
<edit conflict. Gwen Gale, since when is calling someone idiotic "mildly untowards"? I suspect you would show considerable caution in directing that word at someone important in your life -- unless you particularly enjoy having confrontations with that person. I consider this issue very important for WP, and have given a short explanation here [38]. I plan on focusing on this subject at considerable length, so please be patient. It is important. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 15:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
CLOSE I am closing this once and for all.
WP:CONSENSUS is that it's not uncivil. After all, I have done some idiotic things in my life (such as calling ex-gf's at 2:00AM for a little nooky) but that does not make me an idiot. Nevertheless, the admin editor in question (this was unrelated to admin actions) has been advised of the potential for inappropriateness in this specific instance, which therefore is effectively a warning. There will be no blocks, bans, de-sysopping, or even slapping with a wet
WP:TROUT. Because of this, there is no need for this thread to continue as no further action will be taken. The role of editors in WQA is to attempt to resolve and/or create communication regarding behaviour. That has happened, now move on. Do not disrupt further. (
talk→ Bwilkins / BMW
←track) 15:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Start here. Spotfixer ( talk) 07:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
( talk) 10:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC) User:Viktor van Niekerk is using uncivil posts to exercise ownership over the Ten-string guitar article. Several potential editors have given up, but the article needs lots of work, on content, structure, and POV issues. An attempt to discuss it on his talk page he simply reverted, with the edit summary your opinion on this matter is irrelevant; you are not an authority. I do not propose my "opinions", but the facts that are all verifiable. I am justified in excluding false information. See Talk:Ten-string guitar#Civility, personal attack, and content issues. Andrewa ( talk) 10:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Ironically, if non-experts did not take up vendetta's against me (as Andrewa has done here) and if they did not insist on including non-notable and faulty information in this article, there would be no battleground whatsoever, but simply verifiable facts. My desire has always been to present only factual, verifiable information. I have however faced endless opposition from not only vandals using sock-puppets to attack Narciso Yepes and the concept of his guitar, but also from well-meaning but misinformed readers. If you know the literature on this topic, you will know that misinformation is ubiquitous, and it is from this that most people draw their conclusions, lacking access to reliable sources. I however draw my information from primary sources by Yepes and from well-established laws of physics. I beg to differ with Andrewa, but (while sometimes rough - this is a daily and taxing struggle against misinformation) my actions have been exactly the opposite of a classic SOAP case (a vehicle for propaganda and advertisement). What I have excluded is precisely the propaganda and advertising of musically non-notable concepts that certain players have a vested interest in promoting even to the point of lying about their (and Yepes's) guitar's acoustic properties. To allow such content here would, ironically, lead to exactly what Andrewa is accusing me of: propaganda and advertising. This is not what I am doing. I am promoting knowledge about the standard form of an instrument as conceived by its inventor. I am drawing on primary texts by that inventor as well as the science of acoustics. Acoustics is not propaganda, but reality governed by the laws of physics.
What is really behind this is Andrewa's personal grudge against me, a vendetta that originates with his desire to rewrite organological terminology by taking an exception as a rule. I suspect that he has a vested interest in the matter, not to lose face as a self-proclaimed musicologist, after I pointed out that he was incorrect in referring to instruments with courses as "10-string guitars". A course, being a pair of strings, functions as one string. It is a well established musicological convention that we refer to instruments with at least one paired set of strings as coursed. The baroque guitar is thus a 5-course guitar, not a 10-string guitar, as it has five pairs of strings, each pair functioning as a single unit. "12-string guitar" is an exception to this and not the rule and the term comes from manufacturers and not from musicological scholars. So this is nothing more than a personal vendetta against me over Andrew Alder losing face on this issue. He clearly knows the ins and outs of wikipedia much better than I do. I am, after all, as he accuses me, a professional musician and scholar, not a professional wikipedia administrator. So he may well win in this case, but truth will prevail. Truth? Verifiable facts from the primary texts (I don't even mention my personal association with individuals who have first-hand experience of these histories), as well as facts derived from the science of acoustics, not "mystical views on musical topics". I'm sorry, but for an informed scholar with a grasp on acoustics as well as musicology, these are proven facts that have a physical, empirical reality, not "mystical views". It is just that this is a very complex and very dense topic which is predominantly misunderstood. What wikipedia needs is a credible, scholarly article on this topic. While the present article can be improved stylistically and more references added, it should not be brought down to the level of propaganda and advertising. That is exactly what I wish to avoid.
I recommend Andrewa create a new page termed "10-stringed guitars" under which he may differentiate the various types of 10-stringed guitars according to their number of courses. So baroque guitar would be included under 5-course guitar, while the Yepes instrument would be under 10-course guitar. I also recommend that 19th century 10-stringed harp-guitars like those by Lacote and Scherzer be moved to the harp guitar page. Then we can remove the comparison between these and the Yepes instrument under the ten-string guitar article. Alternatively, I can remove it anyway, but re-write the main article to state clearly the defining acoustic characteristics of Yepes's invention and why/how only this tuning has these characteristics (a fact of physics). Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 04:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Addendum: further examination finds the edits of 129.94.133.166 ( talk · contribs), which are evidently the same user, with a similar history of incivility, plus major POV activity in Romance (song). Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 00:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The academic convention of musicologists is to refer to instruments with at least one pair of strings as being coursed. A 13-course baroque lute is never referred to as a 24-string lute. A baroque guitar with 5 courses is not by any respectable academic referred to as a 10-string guitar. The distinction is a necessary one. Finally, the contrary convention used by musicians who do not have a formal (classical) background in music and musicology is rooted in misinformation and ignorance of the already long established prior academic/musicological convention. The contrary "convention" stems from the catalogues of instrument manufacturers and not from any serious musicologists. Andrewa accuses me of not knowing certain marginal instruments. Is he a mind-reader? This smacks of personal vendetta and an attack on my musical expertise. The irony is that I know these instruments and more (you seem to be ignorant of the charango, Andrew, another 5-coursed relative of the guitar, not to mention 5-coursed vihuelas), but Andrew evidently knows nothing about the actual instrument with 10 individual strings. I know of the B.C. Rich so-called "10-string guitar", and excluded it because I know it and know the convention by which any serious musicologists (not electric guitar manufacturers) name such instruments with pairs of strings (courses). Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 01:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
See this article: [ [39]]
I concur and will contribute nothing further to this disinformative farce parading as an encyclopaedia that is called wikipedia. It is nothing more than a joke, run for/by incompetent non-experts with too much time on their hands and nothing better to do than stroke each other's egos while fostering mediocrity and ignorance under the specious banner of "consensus" and "democracy".
Yes, I am uncivil towards those for whom this is intented, but they deserve it for raising inaccuracy and misinformation to a virtue. I will not suffer fools any further.
Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 10:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Viktor has announced above his intention to take an indefinite Wikibreak, which is a resolution, albeit not the ideal resolution. But perhaps it is the best that we can hope for at this stage. We have tried our best to accomodate him.
I can now return to the content issues, and will in due course post messages to earlier contributors to the article and/or to its talk page, telling them that their contributions and suggestions are finally being incorporated into the article. Hopefully some of them will return, and collaboration can then start.
There is still a long way to go, and no guarantee that the conflict is over, but should it resume there would probably then be grounds for a user conduct RfC. So in any case this phase of WP:DR is probably over.
Thank you, both to those who have participated, and also to those who lurk ready to contribute, and whose time was committed to this even if their wisdom decided that now was not the time to join the discussion.
Andrew Alder Andrewa ( talk) 23:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Viktor's decision to take his ball home doesn't seem to have happened. He's continuing to add hostile and disruptive soapboxing to Talk:Ten-string guitar, with a particular attack on Andrew and the promise: You deserve no less than uncivility. I wil let you play at being a musicologist for a few weeks/months until I have the time to undo your work as well as "outing" his identity. [40] Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 10:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it might be justified to now go straight to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. An RfC is just another way of attempting a voluntary solution, and I think there's ample evidence that this will not be enough. Comments? Andrewa ( talk) 21:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I've blocked User:Viktor van Niekerk from editing for one week. Gwen Gale ( talk) 22:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Per Andrew's request (above) can we continue discussion at
Talk:Ten-string guitar#Behaviour issues 2? Thanks.
Gerardw (
talk) 22:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Used uncivil language here in response to edit dispute. Also, "templated a regular". Tomdobb ( talk) 19:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Reverted an edit I made to a page that I felt was a perfectly understandable and intelligent one - formatting it to look more like similar pages I have worked on (this was the List of Megadeth band members page) and his reversion was justified as "RV ignorance". I was understandably offended by being called ignorant and explained this on his talk page, but the key part of my response to him was an exact explanation of why I had made my edit in the first place. I hoped we could, you know, discuss it? He ignored me for several days, while still listing himself at the top of his page as "around" and making a large number of edits to Wikipedia, so I left a simple message asking if he was ignoring me (this being after 8 days). The response I got included phrases "Why do you think the edition that you did to this list is most correct that my?" and "You simply destroyed all the work that I had, to improve the quality of this list" - both hypocritical and quite obviously ignoring my explanation. Again, I tried to explain in more detail and with a visual aid. He responded with a smiley face. After a few days waiting, I said I was going to request a third opinion - which I did - though this generated no response from Cannibaloki.
I had noticed on his userpage that he helped make Trivium discography a Featured Article. I'd never seen a discography that was an FA, nor did I see how a band with so few releases as Trivium could earn it - and saw poorly written English, spelling/grammar errors, overly-long sentences and also an error on how band singles the band had released. Initially I edited the page so the information on singles conformed with the band's template along with a large number of legit edits. This entire edit was reverted as "cleanup" by Cannibaloki. I did some research, found out the singles listed as singles on their individual pages, and in the band's template at the bottom of the page, were not actually singles - I had believed they were since I had read they were online and they had music videos but evidently my sources were inadequate at that time. So I put my other edits back together, and still updated the information on singles - I had uncovered some singles Cannibaloki had not mentioned on this page even if many of the others had not been singles. I felt these edits were so obvious that no user would question them - I got an A in A-level English and AA in my double GCSE so even if I'm not the best writer in the world I recognised and improved on the clunkily written text and fitted it into a more concise explanation - so I did not include an edit summary. After the user reverted them as "Removing few unnecessary changes." I made a more accommodating version - no details were skimmed out but I restructured the phrasing all the same to improve it without removing any information put in place by Cannibaloki. I also edited it in steps, putting an edit summary each time that gave a clear explanation of actions. He reverted them with the justification that they were "Nonsense" edits.
Frankly, I don't think he's taking me the slightest bit seriously or holding me with much respect, despite admitting on his user page that his English isn't brilliant. I also think to call my edits "ignorant" and "nonsense" and to respond to a serious discussion point with a smiley face - effectively blanking me and shutting down conversation - was rather rude. However, it also leaves me at a loss as to what to do; normally even if I have trouble with an argument, I can have that argument. I can't even argue with this guy. ( The Elfoid ( talk) 23:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC))
Comments
Editing tests or errors same!
Inserted the code...
| * None
...when the correct is
| * Here, in the planet Earth, we normally left this field blank, when we don't have a certification. |
In short, I believe that this user is revolted, with envy and anger with the improvements that were made to articles, and since then is doing drama. Initially, I did not answer, because I thought he would realize that committed several gross errors, and would help in improving the articles, and not distorting all. (See also: Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Trivium discography) Regards, Canniba loki 15:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: I have requested that Cannibaloki re-think some of their entry above, and am willing to accept edits/removal of some of their text above rather than striking. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I've posted a civility warning on User talk:Cannibaloki. Gerardw ( talk) 22:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Montana is generally a productive and active contributor to articles related to horses. However, I believe she sometimes loses patience with arguments she disagrees with too quickly and expresses herself in a way that strongly implies ownership issues. We've had run-ins in the past, but after a drawn-out attempt at dispute resolution and mutual apologies we have been trying to cooperate on improving horses in warfare. A few days ago, however, Montana made this post [41] at talk:horses in warfare, which I felt was very disparaging.
Peter Isotalo 17:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Montanabw has been of great help to me, a newcomer, who can't even add stuff properly or with agility yet. I think maybe if you speak of the specific issues or stuff you want changed or added to the article this will help. Articles are hard as research will show sources will conflict. Don't let us loose or abuse this valuable and patient user. Arsdelicata ( talk) 22:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
My first reaction is Why are we wasting time on this? The comment is not uncivil in *any* sense, and is not directed at any individual. It's difficult to see what anyone would take offense (out of context of 2 years of discussion perhaps). I suggest that Peter rereads the post in the context of a newcomer, and either resubmits a complaint with diffs pointing out the exact nature of his complaint, or he realizes that there is no evidence of uncivility and withdraws this report. -- HighKing ( talk) 00:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I just not seeing incivility by Montanabw here. And to take two phrases (sideline, whining) out of context of a whole, positive upbeat message to me is more uncivil than comment in the first place. Gerardw ( talk) 00:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
This isn't the first time Montana has made a "that's enough of that racket"-posts before, and I felt this one was a repetition of that. My major annoyance, though, is that Montana makes this speech despite having had plenty of opinionated arguments about the latest additions without producing any source-related information on it.
I was thinking about posting this at Montana's talkpage, but last time I did so, I felt like she didn't understand a word I said. Considering we've had some diffuclties in the past, and that we have had personal exchanges, I thought it was better to bring up the issue here. I did not understand any of the instructions here as meaning I had to bring it up on her talkpage first.
Peter Isotalo 11:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Reading the mediation and seeing what happened there, and seeing Peter's actions in confronting Montana on her talk page after not only being told here that he has used up any good faith that he was due but also seeing Montana reply at this alert leads me to believe this is going to proceed nowhere as Peter is completely unwilling to listen to reason or to compromise on anything. I think this should be closed, and believe if Peter continues with his harassment that Montana will have no choice but to take it to the next step in dispute resoultion. She has been more than patient. Theseeker4 ( talk) 18:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
user:Icsunonove got very excited and insulting yesterday and was thus reported at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Icsunonove and IP 192.45.72.26 no action was taken and the hope was he would calm down... he just came back and has upped the insulting by ton:
and he keeps raging and raging... -- noclador ( talk) 16:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't even know where to reply, with the multiple posts and adding new sections. What I'm seeing is: Noclodar edit warring and going WP:3rr, forum shopping (here, AN/I, User talk:EdJohnston), and a lack of following procedures (e.g. a dubious sockpuppet claim on AN/I instead of WP:SSP. There's a lack of understanding of Wikipedia (e.g. The book is wrong [56]) when the standard is whether it's verifiable. Gerardw ( talk) 03:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
User was reported here (see above) and on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Icsunonove and IP 192.45.72.26 for about 50 cases of incivility. Case was declared resolved by user:Theseeker4 with the following rationale: "User has stated intention to leave Wikipedia for some amount of time, possibly permanently, so no further action is necessary.". 28 hours later:
and he is currently going on and going on and going on and going on and... as I already said yesterday: Case is unresolved! -- noclador ( talk) 21:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
So, this new policy: let me understand: you can call other editors: "pigs, crazy, nuts, genetically linked to Hitler, BIZARRE!, ridiculous, hypersensitive and indeed insecure, aggressive, discusting, extremely insecure, childish,..." and tell them things like: "You have no idea, Is it so boring in Merano, Swedish being arrogant, do you have a learning disability?, two people who sound and act like teenagers, You have issues dude, Grow the heck up, Are you smoking, something?, evaluate the BS you just spewed on my talk page,..." and about 50 insults more and will get away with it, if you say you will leave wikipedia and if you come back and continue to insult, that is ok, because hey insulting editors is not an Wikiquette alert??? thus one can go on indefinitely insulting other editors??? examples after I filed the second report (or in other words the last 20 minutes)
and in between he went again on
as usual: Icsunonove attacking User:HalfShadow, -- noclador ( talk) 23:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Background: Both this user and I have, in the past, had a "horrible" argument over the article Bicycle Kick. This argument turned out to involve almost as much as 5 Wikipedists, but he was not originally part of the party in dispute. As a matter of fact, the situation was more like: 4 Wikipedists vs. Me. At the end, "King of the North East" and another user took my points to a series of different places, including the football project page and even notified this "Wikiquette Alert" page due to some of my rude comments. The result of this conflict ended up in me getting a warning for my behavior, and in me keeping the edits I wanted (for the most part) in the Bicycle Kick article.
Currently: It has been almost half a year since that argument took place, and now I have decided to once again try to improve the bicycle kick article and provide more links and sources. However, now that I have started doing this, User:King of the North East has yet again re-appeared from the grave like an ugly nightmare. Yet, instead of searching for "peace" (since he was the person that accused me at "Wikiquette Alert"), he has sent me an aggressive message that, more than likely, expects for me to send an equally aggressive reply.
Well, I've already been warned before, and I do not want to be banned from Wikipedia. I would like it for the concerned editors here to please warn User:King of the North East, because he apparently thinks that he can get away with insulting me because I cannot do the same to him.
Evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MarshalN20#Gibberish
As you see here, he is saying: 1. I am wrecking the article = Insulting. 2. I write gibberish = Insulting my language skills.
As you see here, he is once again making fun of my language skills, which is an insult to my person.
As you see here, he states that I am "contaminating articles" and accuses me of POV. 20:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Please dear members of the Wikiquette alert team, or random Wikipedists that want to act as judges: Be fair. I have not done anything wrong, and there is no reason for this user to keep attacking me. We, supposedly, had already been told by other users to stop arguing. Yet, as you can see here, it is him who is starting the problem (not me, I haven't done anything wrong). He should receive, for the least, a warning. I do not want an argument with this person, because I already have enough arguments going on in my life. Once again, please be fair of judgement. There is no way I can assume "Good Faith" of a user that uses comments like the ones I have just shown.--
[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (
talk) 11:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
MarshalN20 please post notice on King of NE's talk page per Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#Instructions_for_users_posting_alerts. Gerardw ( talk) 14:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
To both Theseeker and and BW: In other words, you're telling me that "I am wrecking and contaminating the article with gibberish and POV." Because that's exactly what it all comes down to when you mix in all of the things "King of the NE" has told me. That is by no means false logic. There are plenty of ways to say things, but it all comes down to how you say them to express your point. Fighting Words are not allowed either in the court rooms or in this website, and the two of you are basically stating that you're "OK" with their use. For example, I could say: "BW is an imbecile that wants to act like a judge, but is doing a crappy job at it; and that Theseeker is an idiot that simply sticks his nose in Gerardw's butt without looking to express something different." Is that "OK" with the two of you? By God, I'd be surprised if you say yes! No, I do not mean to insult the two of you, I mean to show you that it is NOT "OK" for a person to insult another person and "get away with it." Especially if it could just be said, taking my example again: "BW, I do not agree with your reasoning and believe that you should re-evaluate what you have just posted; and Theseeker, I would greatly appreciate it if you could express your own judgement on the matter instead of simply re-stating what BW wrote, because I do not find it constructuve." Which sounds better, my first statement or my second statement? Quite obviously, "King of the NE" could have simply told me: "MarshalN20, your edits on the article are not being constructive. You are providing sentences with grammatic errors that may need revising. Also, in one sentence you included much POV, so I will be deleting it for the sake of improving the article." I would appreciate it if both of you read all of what I have just wrote, understood it, and realize that your previous decisions were not the type of responses a "judge" in reality would have stated. BE FAIR and don't let people who use insulting language get away without even a warning.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 13:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Now that the required notification has been posted on King of NE's talk page: I concur that a sentence that starts out you are stilling wrecking isn't civil. You is the second person personal pronoun, still implies pejoratively that this is longtime behavior, and wrecking implies malicious or wanton destructive, not just inserting a bad sentence.
The personal attacks on TheSeeker4 and BMW are uncalled for and also not WP:CIVIL, and we are not here to debate the content -- that should be done at Talk:Bicycle kick. Additionally, this is a informal non-binding forum, so it is not our role to punish people or invoke sanctions. I'd like to see User of NE address the 'I see you are still wrecking' part of his comment and try to resolve this peacefully. Gerardw ( talk) 16:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
And, by the way, my ability to write in the English language is often noted, by my professors and others, to be always excellent. Furthermore, I always check my works twice or sometimes three times before I post anything in any of my public works. So I would appreciate it if the lot of you, especially "King of the NE," stop trying to make it seem as if I do not know how to write in English. If the bicycle kick section of the "Peruvian Claim" was such a "badly written" section, I am sure that its opponents (such as "King of the NE") would care very little for it; however, since it is not, they are apparently afraid of its content (which really amuses me). Moreover, take note that I am apparently not the only person with whom "King of the NE" is having civility problems with: clicky here -- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 05:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
for abuse of the alerts... =) Icsunonove ( talk) 23:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
My edits on Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(icons) and User_talk:John are continually be referred to as uncivil. Can you please review Gnevin ( talk) 09:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Escalating incivility from both parties, mostly a content dispute, additional comments at article talk page Gerardw ( talk) 15:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Klassikkomies uses unnecessary " warnings" (about normal consensus-based editing) as weapon in my discussion page, forcing his opinion aggressively by that way. Both me and Klassikkomies are discussing in talk page of Jussi Halla-aho. So my view is, that it is unnecessary and uncivil and against the policy to make those messages in personal discussion pages, if the case is about normal discussion about relevance of Wikipedia's content. Klassikkomies accuses without the cause. -- Thi ( talk) 20:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Klassikkomies describing edits as 'vandalism' [68] and characterizing Thi's claims as 'lies' are uncivil. Thi's describing Klassikkomies edits as 'spam' [69] is uncivil. Klassikkomies posting standard warnings on Thi's page is not inherently uncivil. Thi is allowed to edit his talk page, including 'deletion' of warnings -- they're still present in the page history. See Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments. Recommend both users use article dispute resolution procedures. Gerardw ( talk) 21:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Thi constantly removed the following notable facts from the article (sources are provided after the sentences):
See discussion for more information. Klassikkomies ( talk) 21:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I've been accused many times (at least 5) by User:The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick [77] of being a 'sockpuppet' and he even went so far as to issue a checkuser request and he had the nerve to tell me to "promise that I will never do it [sockpuppetry] again" [78], I believe this is unacceptable in Wikipedia. He also said it in a wikipedia article [79]. Also last time he issued a checkuser request on me and he said he would apologize if I was innocent of being a sockpuppet but he never did, can you admins tell him to please behave? his insults are not justified. Thank you.-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, good, you made the request. Do you have the results yet? Part of Euro's complaint was that you said you would apologize if you were wrong and you didn't; did the checkuser come back yet? If so, I would assume Euro was not the sock you suspected him of being, but obviously if it did not come back yet we all would have to wait for the results. Theseeker4 ( talk) 01:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Podomi moved the page Swedish-speaking Finns to Finland's Swedes violating the move procedure. The move was done without consensus, while the former location was reached after extensive move discussion which resulted in consensus (in Octorber 2006). Talk page gives a good overview of the conflict.-- MPorciusCato ( talk) 21:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
First few days of discussion
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User: csloat ( talk) reverted an edit of mine with this edit summery: rv trolling, which is a violation of WP:civility. [1] [2]. No matter how strongly Commodore Sloat disagrees with my editing, that is no excuse for an accusation of trolling. (I have considered taking this complaint to AN/I because Commodore Sloat has a long history of incivility.) Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 21:51, 27 December 2008 (UTC) By the way Commodore Sloat has insinuated that I have edited the article both with my user name and as an IP user [3]. If anyone is inclined to believe that, I invite a check user. That accusation is also a violation of WP:civility, and totally disregards WP:assume good faith. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 22:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Note: User:Jayjg has stated he considers the use of the word trolling uncivil. Talk:New_antisemitism#trolling_from_anon_ip_.2B_established_user. Proposal: I suggest csloat agree to refrain from the use of the term trolling -- perhaps substituting failing to achieve consensus. Additionally, I suggest Malcolm Schosha] agree to follow the consensus for the article in question. Fair enough? Gerardw ( talk) 16:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
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Proposal #2: I suggest csloat agree to refrain from the use of the term trolling -- perhaps substituting failing to achieve consensus and the Wikiquette entry closed. Fair enough? Gerardw ( talk) 19:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
While my comment may not actually help, and I haven't engaged in the above discussion, I have seen CS frequently be a bit on the blue side in his approach to civility. Just a small comment though; don't heed this too much. Scarian Call me Pat! 21:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Commodore Sloat, seems a little silly when accusing me of edit warring, when it is he who just got a three month topic ban because of his edit warring [6]. As can be seen in Commodore Sloat's edit above, he is still calling my editing of the article "trolling". I will continue to edit the article as I see best, and as a result, I am sure this discussion here will soon have a part two. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 12:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
The consensus is far from clear, and my position on that edit has been clearly explained, and is based in WP guidelines (i,e. that Tariq Ali is not a WP:reliable source on the subject of any aspect of antisemitism). Another editor has recently question the publisher of the source [7], and this morning another editor yet deleted the same disputed material [8]. So the claim of consensus is rather exaggerated. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
If Commodore Sloat's apology still stands (and that is not entirely clear), I accept....even if it does consist mostly of qualifiers and disclaimers. I regret it if, in the process of making my point, I tramped all over Commodore Sloat's feelings with my hobnail boots. And, thanks also for the patience of those editors of this noticeboard who have facilitated a resolution. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 19:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Note: It has only been determined a few hundred times that a description of "trolling" or being called a "troll" is not uncivil in and of itself. Trolling is a sequence of events or intent, as per an essay. Any attempt to degrade another editor, or to force them to stop editing because of differences in opinion are a violation of WP:NPA. From what I see, there's an awful lot of that from all sides. You all know better than that. I would prefer to see this closed, and people get on to actually editing - let's call it "coincidental minors" (which you'll understand if you know hockey) ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 19:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Let's give sloat an opportunity to respond, but I believe that there is a renewed spirit of cooperation and WP:AGF from both main parties and in essence this can be closed. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I regret that I erred in failing to follow Editor responding instructions properly which I changed the section tag to stuck [3] in that I failed to provide the suggested recommendations for continuing. In hindsight, stale would have been the appropriate tag. I, too, agree that this alert should be closed. As I understand the process, we can only consider it resolved when both csloat and Malcolm Schosha come to agreement. This seems unlikely, as csloat won't even simply agree not to use the term troll when less Civility-gray alternates exist, and Malcolm Schosha wouldn't even simply agree follow consensus. [4]. It is probably best at this point to recuse myself from further discussion and will do so. Best wishes for a happy to all parties and contributing editors. Gerardw ( talk) 01:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
It's now obvious that csloat fails to accept that this complaint has merit, but there is no point in pursuing this matter any further. Civility is a serious matter - so much so, that it forms a core policy. Since both editors are now aware of their actions and behaviours that are considered inappropriate and disruptive, both can consider themselves warned. I expect that those editors that have learned something won't reappear here. I recommend that this Alert is closed if Malcolm agrees. csloat has already indicated he wants this incident closed. -- HighKing ( talk) 13:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Enough - this is childish. This Alert is closed. Don't leave the rest of the community with the impression that you are unable to behave civilly and appropriately, or that you belong in a playground. Draw a line, move on. -- HighKing ( talk) 18:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This anon user is being very hostile regarding edits made on Radiohead, and is refusing to assume good faith. I went to his talk page and tried to point out that he was acting rather rudely, and directed him to WP:GOODFAITH, but he simply became even more hostile and called my message on his talk page 'abuse'. I have left another message to him, telling him that it was a very normal edit dispute over wording and nothing to get upset about and left him another link to WP:GOODFAITH, but I really don't think he's even going to look at the link I gave him. Zazaban ( talk) 23:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't recall having ever had any dealings with User:CadenS before, but I am shocked at his/her comments about me at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Eric Wone and User talk:CadenS. Apparently my nomination of Robert Eric Wone for deletion, due to my concerns about BLP violations, is some sort of conspiracy to censor Wikipedia because I have an agenda to make sure that all rapes of straight men by gay men not be reported. I didn't even know, and do not know as of this minute, that Wone was straight and the people the article is trying so very hard to accuse of his murder without saying so, are gay. Little Red Riding Hood talk 07:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
CadenS has removed my notification of this discussion from his Talk page without comment or coming here to discuss it: [12]. Little Red Riding Hood talk 08:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
::The wording of the close is entirely inappropriate.
Little Red Riding Hood
talk 18:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
As per guidelines regarding NPOV disputes, I have posted an RfC on the Quebec talk page regarding two possible POV statements on the Quebec article and made bold edits altering them. Bosonic dressing reverted these edits. I've since added POV tags identifying the passages and continued the discussion on the talk page. Bosonic dressing ( talk) continues not only to revert edits (which is perfectly okay), but continually removes POV tags (which is not).
The editor also overtly and continually states that he does this because he challenges my good faith in this dispute:
Please remind Bosonic dressing to always maintain civility on the discussion board and assume assume good faith on my part by keeping dispute tags on contested items until this dispute has been resolved; POV tags are entirely appropriate in such an ongoing discussion. Self-reverting and restoring the tags would do much to show that the editor is now assuming good faith. -- soulscanner ( talk) 08:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't see a civility issue. I see a budding edit war being cast as a civility issue. The discussion on [[Talk::Quebec]] seems to be tending towards the consensus removal of the tags, therefore I don't see removing the tags as evidence of a lack of good faith, especially as Bosonic dressing is contributing the talk page discussion. Gerardw ( talk) 18:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Could someone possibly have a word with User:ThuranX regarding his rather robust language on Talk:Egon Schiele? As far as I know I have no previous history with the user. I removed what seemed a poor and unreferenced section of the article, he restored it, then got rather heated when I asked him to reference it. It's all there and at User talk:ThuranX#Egon Schiele. I don't think this sort of minor dispute requires that sort of passion, nor is this what I look for in an encyclopedic discussion. -- John ( talk) 06:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Issue escalated to AN/I marking NWQA. Gerardw ( talk) 01:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
This issue has been going on for some time now, and I am getting desperate. Adolf Hitler was a member of the Catholic Church all his life, which has one historian led to the statement, that Hitler "can be classified as nominally Catholic." I've been trying to work this into the article Adolf Hitler. There were several objections to it (and several people who agreed), but my arguments have apparently convinced all editors but one. This one, however, appears to immune to rational argumentation. I spent hours writing on the talk page and searching additional literature, but this had no effect. Furthermore, I have repeatedly been accused of POV-Pushing in the edit summary: [13], [14] To me it appears as if User:Str1977 assumes bad faith. I am honestly only trying to improve the coverage of the topic ( Religion in Nazi Germany) on Wikipedia. This discussion is taking up valuable time that could be used for writing articles; but even worse, it makes me doubt that it has any purpose to contribute. Zara1709 ( talk) 12:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing the article history, it appears both User:Zara1709 and User:Str1977 have violated 3rr. The only other editor to contribute to Talk:Adolf_Hitler#Hitler.2C_nominally_Catholic.3F states religion in the infobox is not a good idea because it is unrelated to Hitler's notability. One of User:Str1977 edits does leave in the fact that Hitler never left the Catholic church. I see an edit war and no evidence of not assuming good faith. I'd recommend continuing the discussion at Talk:Adolf Hitler and completing the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies process. Gerardw ( talk) 13:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If I count the reverts correctly we're both at 3. But I have to insist that I am not pushing a certain POV in bad faith. I would be willing to grant the Str1977 has a different view concerning the application of wp:NPOV, but he is not willing to grant the same thing to me.And I tried to list the issue at the rfc noticeboard- it didn't work. Zara1709 ( talk) 13:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
This user is WP:STALKing me, reverting all my edits. He has also been suspected being a sockpuppetry. He is also adding term "Assyrian" in all Syriac related articles such as: [15] [16] [17] and many articles more. We already decided to use term Assyrian-Syriac on persons, and term Syriac for villages and the people on Turkey and Syria related articles and term Assyrian on Iraq and Iran-realted articles. Both terms refers to the same group but to avoid vandalism from Assyrian and syriac fanatics, we made this descision on the assyrian syriac cooperation board. what can we do about this user, since he is an assyrian fanatic, that does not provide anything to wikipedia? AramaeanSyriac ([[User talk:AramaeanSyriac|talk]]) 23:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Funny and you are removing assyrian from all the other articles [18] this is just one example of you contradicting yourself, there is more would you like for me to provide them here?. Why are you deleting comments off your page in regards to being blocked and warned, are you trying to hide your history, [19] The Assyrian/Syriac coop board has been inactive for months, get yourself updated with recent revisions done lately with adding assyrian/syriac to villages, singers, geographical palce, stop contradicting yourself, [20] , [21], [22] and so on, the source you have used does not state his name anywhere, stop making up stuff. Ninevite ( talk) 00:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to point out that Nineveh 209 ( talk · contribs) should practice on being polite or at least not being impolite. Indeed he seems to have been stalking me to, calling me a bigot and incompetent every time he has the chance to do so. I must say I don't appreciate it. [23], [24], [25], [26]. And even here above he calls people for bigot and acusses someone of being racist, which isn't the first time either.
Also he has previosuly attacked me in an other language than English which has been noticed here [27]. The TriZ ( talk) 00:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I would like to bring to your notice the following part of a conversation. The conversation was held on one of the hottest Talk pages of the moment, The Israel-Gaza conflict. I would like to complain about the language of user Leladax. Please see for yourself.
{begin of quote}
Yeah, VERY unbiased. I just watched a report in its front page showing the borders of Israel encompassing all Palestinian territories. Go back into your Hebrew fanaticism close circle cause here you're only being ridiculed publicly.
Leladax (
talk) 17:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
{end of quote}
I agree. Debresser ( talk) 13:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Unarchived per user request I went to WQA for help Gerardw ( talk) 23:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Both have accused me of canvassing at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos (see the bottom of the page...it's a long read) when I have indeed done no such thing. Thoughts on how to handle it? — BQZip01 — talk 02:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
[28] [29]. Notifying users. My question really is just a request for feedback as to what others recommend I should do. — BQZip01 — talk 03:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Not seeing evidence of civility violation by User:ESkog and User:Hammersoft. Remember WP:AGF I recommend you continue discussion on appropriate talk page. Gerardw ( talk) 03:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
BQZip01 did canvass this poll but I think he did so accidently and probably doesn't realise he did. He notified all previous participants in the RFC (myself included and I am diametrically opposed to his opinion on the issue in question) which is a reasonable thing to do. What he likely did not realise is that many of the previous participants had come along only because another editor had canvassed them and the relevant Wikiproject. By notifying previous particpants, BQZip01 inadvertently repeated this previous attempt to skew the RFC. I don't think he can reasonably be held responsible for this effect. CIreland ( talk) 03:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
As noted, WP:CANVASS has neutral and negative implications. As already noted, the complainant may have inadvertantly canvassed, and it was brought to their attention instead of taking it to WP:ANI; that's mighty neighbourly of the other editors, and is very much the way Wikipedia should work (politely advising of an issue, rather than running to the "police"). The original complainant's stated lack of desire to bring the issue to WQA in lieu of discussing with the other editors is truly an appalling violation of the spirit of Wikipedia. We all edit collaboratively. The above addition of the "shotgun" effect (throwing a bunch of things out there, hoping one will hit the target) is unfortunate. I will agree, that let's say only 3 people are editing an article, and 2 of those 3 say "no", it's not quite "officially" consensus because of !vote, but it's enough consensus in most cases (4 !votes vs 2 !votes is a different story). This is a collaborative encyclopedia. Get used to collaborating. Get used to having your edits challenged. This is how it works. On top of that, as "slander" implies a legal tone, I would highly recommend those accusations be struck as per WP:NLT, as that is a serious violation of policy and can be immediately dealt with under WP:ANI. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Ibaranoff24 has acted in an uncivil manner towards me on the Mudvayne talk page and edit summaries. He has used unnecessary intimidating language (“You have been warned about this”, when I am simply inserting sources [31]), accused me on multiple occasions of “strongarming my POV” (when again all I’m doing is adding sources), here [32] here [33] and here [34], and claimed that I “lie to justify flagrant attempts to force your own opinion” here [35]. Prophaniti ( talk) 08:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment Two points. First, this is an aggressively trivial content issue that is hardly worth the emotional engagement that has been spawned. Everyone should calm down. Second and more importantly, this is clearly not a civility violation. It is itself a breach of wiki decorum to accuse of other editors of incivility when that is not the case. I will assume good faith here and accept that the editor who brought this complaint genuinely believed that there was a breach of civility. However, as several uninvolved editors have observed, it is simply not the case. Continued insistence risks becoming willfully vexatious bordering on disruptive. I suggest this be archived and the matter be allowed to work itself out on the talk page of the article in question. Eusebeus ( talk) 22:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Concur with the opinion of the third party editors. Disagreement is not inherently uncivil. Both parties showed Good faith at the beginning and got carried away with the edit war without achieving consensus or requesting assistance from other editors. Prophaniti it is good that you asked for assistance. This is just not the assistance you need. Gerardw ( talk) 23:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
There is an editor User:Orangemarlin who is making unnecessarily confrontational comments in [ [36]]. This person seems to adopt this tone a lot but he seems to me to be crossing the line here.-- AssegaiAli ( talk) 20:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Reviewing Talk:Minoan_eruption#BC.2FAD_convention, I'm seeing escalating rhetoric from both parties, but User:Orangemarlin does appear to be pushing the envelope. Gerardw ( talk) 19:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Is this stuck or resolved? There have been no additional comments for a number of days. -- HighKing ( talk) 14:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I will recuse myself from further discussion with this alert as it appears that there is a dispute between myself and Orangemarlin elsewhere. -- HighKing ( talk) 18:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hope this is the right forum, but there seems to be a running POV dispute and tendentious editing behavior between two editors, User:Spotfixer and User:Schrandit. It ranges across many articles but recent examples include Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., Conscience clause (medical), George Harrison (Irish Republican), and Anti-Mexican sentiment. Also see their talk pages at User_talk:Schrandit and Spotfixer's pre-blanking Talk page. I don't really know what to call this behavior, but it's disrupting multiple articles and seems to be both topical and personal. Is it possible for a more experienced editor to help them chill? Regards, Chuckiesdad 06:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Schrandit has been warned for calling an editor a "jerk". Spotfixer is entitled to remove some items from his talkpage, except where officially advised not to (especially regarding blocks). Also, the information should not be removed, it should be archived. Referring to editors as "wannabes" is borderline uncivil. Spotfixer has additional mention elsewhere. All involved editors should be considered warned. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
discussion regarding warning posted by Wikiquette editor
|
---|
Spotfixer has also [ been warned] Gerardw ( talk) 19:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
|
(outdent)
Meanwhile, back at the article where Schrandit was recently and relevantly uncivil, he's edit-warring by reverting without explanation. This is part of his already-documented rule violations in the form of adding bogus cite requests, such as his infamous demand that a cite be cited.
The Schrandit problem needs to be fixed and your hesitancy to block him for incivility and edit-warring is only encouraging him. In fact, he ran around and reverted many of my edits while I was blocked, so he's taking your actions as an endorsement of his WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE violations. He's been taught to ignore all warnings and just keep warring.
Do you have any plans for actions that will put out the fire you've fanned? Spotfixer ( talk) 19:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't expect anyone to provide anyone an apology at this point in time (except for dragging this thread on longer than it needs to). Both sides have been uncivil. Warnings were given. Case is f'ing-closed. Further "demands" for an apology is disruptive to this project overall. Don't think it's fair? Tough, we're no longer 5 years old, which is the last time life was "fair". ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 01:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I have never "demanded a citation for a citation", that is slanderous. Please, everyone, check me on my aforementioned edit, I'm very confident it is within Wikipedia guidelines, I apologize if I am mistaken - Schrandit ( talk) 20:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
( talk) 16:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)}} User:Dbachmann, in responding to a talk page section regarding a recently closed featured article review in which the article in question was demoted( Wikipedia:Featured article review/Growth of the Old Swiss Confederacy/archive1), described the the decision as idiotic. Seeing as I am the user that initiated the procedure, it is impossible not to take this as a WP:personal attack. Can a third party please leave him a friendly reminder the wikipedia policies regarding civility also apply to him? Thanks. ʄ!• ¿talk? 10:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
As noted, calling a decision idiotic is not inherently uncivil. Tagging NWQA. Gerardw ( talk) 16:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Welcome to wikipedia, where up is down and black is white. Unbelievable. ʄ!• ¿talk? 16:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I can sum this up in one word: Hivemind. LOL.
Btw
User:Nunh-huh, "phrasing your objections more exactly"? Funny how you are guilty of the very thing you (falsely) accuse me of. Feigning ignorance as to what I'm saying is
trolling 101. My objections were made explicit. You are hung up on one aspect of what I was saying for whatever reason(perceived prejudice against foreign languages/love of switzerland/whatever) and ignoring everything else.
In conclusion this process was, if I may appropriate the words of someone else for an actual valid circumstance, idiotic.
By all means unleash the hypocrisy in your clamoring to block me for saying this.
ʄ!•
¿talk? 18:20, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Calling an edit "idiotic" is uncivil, and is a personal attack. If you don't believe that, try saying that to your boss about his/her work, and see what happens. That sort of insulting comment is very common from Dbachmann, and if anyone doubts it I can give some diff from my own disagreements with him. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 20:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
And, by the way, you should have mentioned that if that nice Dbachmann does not respond to requests for civility; the issue can be taken to AN/I, where it will be seen by many more people than here, and some of those who see it might have their own experiences with his incivility. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 20:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I understand that it has been closed. But I consider my comment on the incivility of Dbachmann to be on the mark. He knew who the comment was directed at, but he is very good at making it sound as though his comments are just a general comments sent into space. Let me repeat, once more what I wrote above because I consider it important: "Calling an edit "idiotic" is uncivil, and is a personal attack. If you don't believe that, try saying that to your boss about his/her work, and see what happens." This is simple, but important to understand. A problem with WP is the high concentration of computer geeks with good intelligence, but little in the way of social skills. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 13:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Perhaps the place to discuss the general question of the incivility of calling any edit "idiotic" would be Wikipedia talk:Civility. Gerardw ( talk) 21:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think this calls for any admin action. It was a mildly uncivil thing to say. By the bye, the Wikipedia-friendly word for idiotic is unsupported. Gwen Gale ( talk) 11:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
A clever, kind and wise person can easily do something idiotic, like editing Wikipedia. The comment was mildly untowards, not something I'd say (I hope), but not a personal attack and not wantonly uncivil. I think you should drop this, Malcolm, hastily. Gwen Gale ( talk) 15:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
<edit conflict. Gwen Gale, since when is calling someone idiotic "mildly untowards"? I suspect you would show considerable caution in directing that word at someone important in your life -- unless you particularly enjoy having confrontations with that person. I consider this issue very important for WP, and have given a short explanation here [38]. I plan on focusing on this subject at considerable length, so please be patient. It is important. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 15:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
CLOSE I am closing this once and for all.
WP:CONSENSUS is that it's not uncivil. After all, I have done some idiotic things in my life (such as calling ex-gf's at 2:00AM for a little nooky) but that does not make me an idiot. Nevertheless, the admin editor in question (this was unrelated to admin actions) has been advised of the potential for inappropriateness in this specific instance, which therefore is effectively a warning. There will be no blocks, bans, de-sysopping, or even slapping with a wet
WP:TROUT. Because of this, there is no need for this thread to continue as no further action will be taken. The role of editors in WQA is to attempt to resolve and/or create communication regarding behaviour. That has happened, now move on. Do not disrupt further. (
talk→ Bwilkins / BMW
←track) 15:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Start here. Spotfixer ( talk) 07:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
( talk) 10:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC) User:Viktor van Niekerk is using uncivil posts to exercise ownership over the Ten-string guitar article. Several potential editors have given up, but the article needs lots of work, on content, structure, and POV issues. An attempt to discuss it on his talk page he simply reverted, with the edit summary your opinion on this matter is irrelevant; you are not an authority. I do not propose my "opinions", but the facts that are all verifiable. I am justified in excluding false information. See Talk:Ten-string guitar#Civility, personal attack, and content issues. Andrewa ( talk) 10:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Ironically, if non-experts did not take up vendetta's against me (as Andrewa has done here) and if they did not insist on including non-notable and faulty information in this article, there would be no battleground whatsoever, but simply verifiable facts. My desire has always been to present only factual, verifiable information. I have however faced endless opposition from not only vandals using sock-puppets to attack Narciso Yepes and the concept of his guitar, but also from well-meaning but misinformed readers. If you know the literature on this topic, you will know that misinformation is ubiquitous, and it is from this that most people draw their conclusions, lacking access to reliable sources. I however draw my information from primary sources by Yepes and from well-established laws of physics. I beg to differ with Andrewa, but (while sometimes rough - this is a daily and taxing struggle against misinformation) my actions have been exactly the opposite of a classic SOAP case (a vehicle for propaganda and advertisement). What I have excluded is precisely the propaganda and advertising of musically non-notable concepts that certain players have a vested interest in promoting even to the point of lying about their (and Yepes's) guitar's acoustic properties. To allow such content here would, ironically, lead to exactly what Andrewa is accusing me of: propaganda and advertising. This is not what I am doing. I am promoting knowledge about the standard form of an instrument as conceived by its inventor. I am drawing on primary texts by that inventor as well as the science of acoustics. Acoustics is not propaganda, but reality governed by the laws of physics.
What is really behind this is Andrewa's personal grudge against me, a vendetta that originates with his desire to rewrite organological terminology by taking an exception as a rule. I suspect that he has a vested interest in the matter, not to lose face as a self-proclaimed musicologist, after I pointed out that he was incorrect in referring to instruments with courses as "10-string guitars". A course, being a pair of strings, functions as one string. It is a well established musicological convention that we refer to instruments with at least one paired set of strings as coursed. The baroque guitar is thus a 5-course guitar, not a 10-string guitar, as it has five pairs of strings, each pair functioning as a single unit. "12-string guitar" is an exception to this and not the rule and the term comes from manufacturers and not from musicological scholars. So this is nothing more than a personal vendetta against me over Andrew Alder losing face on this issue. He clearly knows the ins and outs of wikipedia much better than I do. I am, after all, as he accuses me, a professional musician and scholar, not a professional wikipedia administrator. So he may well win in this case, but truth will prevail. Truth? Verifiable facts from the primary texts (I don't even mention my personal association with individuals who have first-hand experience of these histories), as well as facts derived from the science of acoustics, not "mystical views on musical topics". I'm sorry, but for an informed scholar with a grasp on acoustics as well as musicology, these are proven facts that have a physical, empirical reality, not "mystical views". It is just that this is a very complex and very dense topic which is predominantly misunderstood. What wikipedia needs is a credible, scholarly article on this topic. While the present article can be improved stylistically and more references added, it should not be brought down to the level of propaganda and advertising. That is exactly what I wish to avoid.
I recommend Andrewa create a new page termed "10-stringed guitars" under which he may differentiate the various types of 10-stringed guitars according to their number of courses. So baroque guitar would be included under 5-course guitar, while the Yepes instrument would be under 10-course guitar. I also recommend that 19th century 10-stringed harp-guitars like those by Lacote and Scherzer be moved to the harp guitar page. Then we can remove the comparison between these and the Yepes instrument under the ten-string guitar article. Alternatively, I can remove it anyway, but re-write the main article to state clearly the defining acoustic characteristics of Yepes's invention and why/how only this tuning has these characteristics (a fact of physics). Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 04:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Addendum: further examination finds the edits of 129.94.133.166 ( talk · contribs), which are evidently the same user, with a similar history of incivility, plus major POV activity in Romance (song). Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 00:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The academic convention of musicologists is to refer to instruments with at least one pair of strings as being coursed. A 13-course baroque lute is never referred to as a 24-string lute. A baroque guitar with 5 courses is not by any respectable academic referred to as a 10-string guitar. The distinction is a necessary one. Finally, the contrary convention used by musicians who do not have a formal (classical) background in music and musicology is rooted in misinformation and ignorance of the already long established prior academic/musicological convention. The contrary "convention" stems from the catalogues of instrument manufacturers and not from any serious musicologists. Andrewa accuses me of not knowing certain marginal instruments. Is he a mind-reader? This smacks of personal vendetta and an attack on my musical expertise. The irony is that I know these instruments and more (you seem to be ignorant of the charango, Andrew, another 5-coursed relative of the guitar, not to mention 5-coursed vihuelas), but Andrew evidently knows nothing about the actual instrument with 10 individual strings. I know of the B.C. Rich so-called "10-string guitar", and excluded it because I know it and know the convention by which any serious musicologists (not electric guitar manufacturers) name such instruments with pairs of strings (courses). Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 01:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
See this article: [ [39]]
I concur and will contribute nothing further to this disinformative farce parading as an encyclopaedia that is called wikipedia. It is nothing more than a joke, run for/by incompetent non-experts with too much time on their hands and nothing better to do than stroke each other's egos while fostering mediocrity and ignorance under the specious banner of "consensus" and "democracy".
Yes, I am uncivil towards those for whom this is intented, but they deserve it for raising inaccuracy and misinformation to a virtue. I will not suffer fools any further.
Viktor van Niekerk ( talk) 10:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Viktor has announced above his intention to take an indefinite Wikibreak, which is a resolution, albeit not the ideal resolution. But perhaps it is the best that we can hope for at this stage. We have tried our best to accomodate him.
I can now return to the content issues, and will in due course post messages to earlier contributors to the article and/or to its talk page, telling them that their contributions and suggestions are finally being incorporated into the article. Hopefully some of them will return, and collaboration can then start.
There is still a long way to go, and no guarantee that the conflict is over, but should it resume there would probably then be grounds for a user conduct RfC. So in any case this phase of WP:DR is probably over.
Thank you, both to those who have participated, and also to those who lurk ready to contribute, and whose time was committed to this even if their wisdom decided that now was not the time to join the discussion.
Andrew Alder Andrewa ( talk) 23:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Viktor's decision to take his ball home doesn't seem to have happened. He's continuing to add hostile and disruptive soapboxing to Talk:Ten-string guitar, with a particular attack on Andrew and the promise: You deserve no less than uncivility. I wil let you play at being a musicologist for a few weeks/months until I have the time to undo your work as well as "outing" his identity. [40] Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 10:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it might be justified to now go straight to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. An RfC is just another way of attempting a voluntary solution, and I think there's ample evidence that this will not be enough. Comments? Andrewa ( talk) 21:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I've blocked User:Viktor van Niekerk from editing for one week. Gwen Gale ( talk) 22:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Per Andrew's request (above) can we continue discussion at
Talk:Ten-string guitar#Behaviour issues 2? Thanks.
Gerardw (
talk) 22:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Used uncivil language here in response to edit dispute. Also, "templated a regular". Tomdobb ( talk) 19:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Reverted an edit I made to a page that I felt was a perfectly understandable and intelligent one - formatting it to look more like similar pages I have worked on (this was the List of Megadeth band members page) and his reversion was justified as "RV ignorance". I was understandably offended by being called ignorant and explained this on his talk page, but the key part of my response to him was an exact explanation of why I had made my edit in the first place. I hoped we could, you know, discuss it? He ignored me for several days, while still listing himself at the top of his page as "around" and making a large number of edits to Wikipedia, so I left a simple message asking if he was ignoring me (this being after 8 days). The response I got included phrases "Why do you think the edition that you did to this list is most correct that my?" and "You simply destroyed all the work that I had, to improve the quality of this list" - both hypocritical and quite obviously ignoring my explanation. Again, I tried to explain in more detail and with a visual aid. He responded with a smiley face. After a few days waiting, I said I was going to request a third opinion - which I did - though this generated no response from Cannibaloki.
I had noticed on his userpage that he helped make Trivium discography a Featured Article. I'd never seen a discography that was an FA, nor did I see how a band with so few releases as Trivium could earn it - and saw poorly written English, spelling/grammar errors, overly-long sentences and also an error on how band singles the band had released. Initially I edited the page so the information on singles conformed with the band's template along with a large number of legit edits. This entire edit was reverted as "cleanup" by Cannibaloki. I did some research, found out the singles listed as singles on their individual pages, and in the band's template at the bottom of the page, were not actually singles - I had believed they were since I had read they were online and they had music videos but evidently my sources were inadequate at that time. So I put my other edits back together, and still updated the information on singles - I had uncovered some singles Cannibaloki had not mentioned on this page even if many of the others had not been singles. I felt these edits were so obvious that no user would question them - I got an A in A-level English and AA in my double GCSE so even if I'm not the best writer in the world I recognised and improved on the clunkily written text and fitted it into a more concise explanation - so I did not include an edit summary. After the user reverted them as "Removing few unnecessary changes." I made a more accommodating version - no details were skimmed out but I restructured the phrasing all the same to improve it without removing any information put in place by Cannibaloki. I also edited it in steps, putting an edit summary each time that gave a clear explanation of actions. He reverted them with the justification that they were "Nonsense" edits.
Frankly, I don't think he's taking me the slightest bit seriously or holding me with much respect, despite admitting on his user page that his English isn't brilliant. I also think to call my edits "ignorant" and "nonsense" and to respond to a serious discussion point with a smiley face - effectively blanking me and shutting down conversation - was rather rude. However, it also leaves me at a loss as to what to do; normally even if I have trouble with an argument, I can have that argument. I can't even argue with this guy. ( The Elfoid ( talk) 23:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC))
Comments
Editing tests or errors same!
Inserted the code...
| * None
...when the correct is
| * Here, in the planet Earth, we normally left this field blank, when we don't have a certification. |
In short, I believe that this user is revolted, with envy and anger with the improvements that were made to articles, and since then is doing drama. Initially, I did not answer, because I thought he would realize that committed several gross errors, and would help in improving the articles, and not distorting all. (See also: Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Trivium discography) Regards, Canniba loki 15:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
NOTE: I have requested that Cannibaloki re-think some of their entry above, and am willing to accept edits/removal of some of their text above rather than striking. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I've posted a civility warning on User talk:Cannibaloki. Gerardw ( talk) 22:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Montana is generally a productive and active contributor to articles related to horses. However, I believe she sometimes loses patience with arguments she disagrees with too quickly and expresses herself in a way that strongly implies ownership issues. We've had run-ins in the past, but after a drawn-out attempt at dispute resolution and mutual apologies we have been trying to cooperate on improving horses in warfare. A few days ago, however, Montana made this post [41] at talk:horses in warfare, which I felt was very disparaging.
Peter Isotalo 17:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Montanabw has been of great help to me, a newcomer, who can't even add stuff properly or with agility yet. I think maybe if you speak of the specific issues or stuff you want changed or added to the article this will help. Articles are hard as research will show sources will conflict. Don't let us loose or abuse this valuable and patient user. Arsdelicata ( talk) 22:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
My first reaction is Why are we wasting time on this? The comment is not uncivil in *any* sense, and is not directed at any individual. It's difficult to see what anyone would take offense (out of context of 2 years of discussion perhaps). I suggest that Peter rereads the post in the context of a newcomer, and either resubmits a complaint with diffs pointing out the exact nature of his complaint, or he realizes that there is no evidence of uncivility and withdraws this report. -- HighKing ( talk) 00:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I just not seeing incivility by Montanabw here. And to take two phrases (sideline, whining) out of context of a whole, positive upbeat message to me is more uncivil than comment in the first place. Gerardw ( talk) 00:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
This isn't the first time Montana has made a "that's enough of that racket"-posts before, and I felt this one was a repetition of that. My major annoyance, though, is that Montana makes this speech despite having had plenty of opinionated arguments about the latest additions without producing any source-related information on it.
I was thinking about posting this at Montana's talkpage, but last time I did so, I felt like she didn't understand a word I said. Considering we've had some diffuclties in the past, and that we have had personal exchanges, I thought it was better to bring up the issue here. I did not understand any of the instructions here as meaning I had to bring it up on her talkpage first.
Peter Isotalo 11:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Reading the mediation and seeing what happened there, and seeing Peter's actions in confronting Montana on her talk page after not only being told here that he has used up any good faith that he was due but also seeing Montana reply at this alert leads me to believe this is going to proceed nowhere as Peter is completely unwilling to listen to reason or to compromise on anything. I think this should be closed, and believe if Peter continues with his harassment that Montana will have no choice but to take it to the next step in dispute resoultion. She has been more than patient. Theseeker4 ( talk) 18:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
user:Icsunonove got very excited and insulting yesterday and was thus reported at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Icsunonove and IP 192.45.72.26 no action was taken and the hope was he would calm down... he just came back and has upped the insulting by ton:
and he keeps raging and raging... -- noclador ( talk) 16:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't even know where to reply, with the multiple posts and adding new sections. What I'm seeing is: Noclodar edit warring and going WP:3rr, forum shopping (here, AN/I, User talk:EdJohnston), and a lack of following procedures (e.g. a dubious sockpuppet claim on AN/I instead of WP:SSP. There's a lack of understanding of Wikipedia (e.g. The book is wrong [56]) when the standard is whether it's verifiable. Gerardw ( talk) 03:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
User was reported here (see above) and on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Icsunonove and IP 192.45.72.26 for about 50 cases of incivility. Case was declared resolved by user:Theseeker4 with the following rationale: "User has stated intention to leave Wikipedia for some amount of time, possibly permanently, so no further action is necessary.". 28 hours later:
and he is currently going on and going on and going on and going on and... as I already said yesterday: Case is unresolved! -- noclador ( talk) 21:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
So, this new policy: let me understand: you can call other editors: "pigs, crazy, nuts, genetically linked to Hitler, BIZARRE!, ridiculous, hypersensitive and indeed insecure, aggressive, discusting, extremely insecure, childish,..." and tell them things like: "You have no idea, Is it so boring in Merano, Swedish being arrogant, do you have a learning disability?, two people who sound and act like teenagers, You have issues dude, Grow the heck up, Are you smoking, something?, evaluate the BS you just spewed on my talk page,..." and about 50 insults more and will get away with it, if you say you will leave wikipedia and if you come back and continue to insult, that is ok, because hey insulting editors is not an Wikiquette alert??? thus one can go on indefinitely insulting other editors??? examples after I filed the second report (or in other words the last 20 minutes)
and in between he went again on
as usual: Icsunonove attacking User:HalfShadow, -- noclador ( talk) 23:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Background: Both this user and I have, in the past, had a "horrible" argument over the article Bicycle Kick. This argument turned out to involve almost as much as 5 Wikipedists, but he was not originally part of the party in dispute. As a matter of fact, the situation was more like: 4 Wikipedists vs. Me. At the end, "King of the North East" and another user took my points to a series of different places, including the football project page and even notified this "Wikiquette Alert" page due to some of my rude comments. The result of this conflict ended up in me getting a warning for my behavior, and in me keeping the edits I wanted (for the most part) in the Bicycle Kick article.
Currently: It has been almost half a year since that argument took place, and now I have decided to once again try to improve the bicycle kick article and provide more links and sources. However, now that I have started doing this, User:King of the North East has yet again re-appeared from the grave like an ugly nightmare. Yet, instead of searching for "peace" (since he was the person that accused me at "Wikiquette Alert"), he has sent me an aggressive message that, more than likely, expects for me to send an equally aggressive reply.
Well, I've already been warned before, and I do not want to be banned from Wikipedia. I would like it for the concerned editors here to please warn User:King of the North East, because he apparently thinks that he can get away with insulting me because I cannot do the same to him.
Evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MarshalN20#Gibberish
As you see here, he is saying: 1. I am wrecking the article = Insulting. 2. I write gibberish = Insulting my language skills.
As you see here, he is once again making fun of my language skills, which is an insult to my person.
As you see here, he states that I am "contaminating articles" and accuses me of POV. 20:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Please dear members of the Wikiquette alert team, or random Wikipedists that want to act as judges: Be fair. I have not done anything wrong, and there is no reason for this user to keep attacking me. We, supposedly, had already been told by other users to stop arguing. Yet, as you can see here, it is him who is starting the problem (not me, I haven't done anything wrong). He should receive, for the least, a warning. I do not want an argument with this person, because I already have enough arguments going on in my life. Once again, please be fair of judgement. There is no way I can assume "Good Faith" of a user that uses comments like the ones I have just shown.--
[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (
talk) 11:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
MarshalN20 please post notice on King of NE's talk page per Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#Instructions_for_users_posting_alerts. Gerardw ( talk) 14:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
To both Theseeker and and BW: In other words, you're telling me that "I am wrecking and contaminating the article with gibberish and POV." Because that's exactly what it all comes down to when you mix in all of the things "King of the NE" has told me. That is by no means false logic. There are plenty of ways to say things, but it all comes down to how you say them to express your point. Fighting Words are not allowed either in the court rooms or in this website, and the two of you are basically stating that you're "OK" with their use. For example, I could say: "BW is an imbecile that wants to act like a judge, but is doing a crappy job at it; and that Theseeker is an idiot that simply sticks his nose in Gerardw's butt without looking to express something different." Is that "OK" with the two of you? By God, I'd be surprised if you say yes! No, I do not mean to insult the two of you, I mean to show you that it is NOT "OK" for a person to insult another person and "get away with it." Especially if it could just be said, taking my example again: "BW, I do not agree with your reasoning and believe that you should re-evaluate what you have just posted; and Theseeker, I would greatly appreciate it if you could express your own judgement on the matter instead of simply re-stating what BW wrote, because I do not find it constructuve." Which sounds better, my first statement or my second statement? Quite obviously, "King of the NE" could have simply told me: "MarshalN20, your edits on the article are not being constructive. You are providing sentences with grammatic errors that may need revising. Also, in one sentence you included much POV, so I will be deleting it for the sake of improving the article." I would appreciate it if both of you read all of what I have just wrote, understood it, and realize that your previous decisions were not the type of responses a "judge" in reality would have stated. BE FAIR and don't let people who use insulting language get away without even a warning.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 13:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Now that the required notification has been posted on King of NE's talk page: I concur that a sentence that starts out you are stilling wrecking isn't civil. You is the second person personal pronoun, still implies pejoratively that this is longtime behavior, and wrecking implies malicious or wanton destructive, not just inserting a bad sentence.
The personal attacks on TheSeeker4 and BMW are uncalled for and also not WP:CIVIL, and we are not here to debate the content -- that should be done at Talk:Bicycle kick. Additionally, this is a informal non-binding forum, so it is not our role to punish people or invoke sanctions. I'd like to see User of NE address the 'I see you are still wrecking' part of his comment and try to resolve this peacefully. Gerardw ( talk) 16:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
And, by the way, my ability to write in the English language is often noted, by my professors and others, to be always excellent. Furthermore, I always check my works twice or sometimes three times before I post anything in any of my public works. So I would appreciate it if the lot of you, especially "King of the NE," stop trying to make it seem as if I do not know how to write in English. If the bicycle kick section of the "Peruvian Claim" was such a "badly written" section, I am sure that its opponents (such as "King of the NE") would care very little for it; however, since it is not, they are apparently afraid of its content (which really amuses me). Moreover, take note that I am apparently not the only person with whom "King of the NE" is having civility problems with: clicky here -- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 05:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
for abuse of the alerts... =) Icsunonove ( talk) 23:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
My edits on Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(icons) and User_talk:John are continually be referred to as uncivil. Can you please review Gnevin ( talk) 09:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Escalating incivility from both parties, mostly a content dispute, additional comments at article talk page Gerardw ( talk) 15:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Klassikkomies uses unnecessary " warnings" (about normal consensus-based editing) as weapon in my discussion page, forcing his opinion aggressively by that way. Both me and Klassikkomies are discussing in talk page of Jussi Halla-aho. So my view is, that it is unnecessary and uncivil and against the policy to make those messages in personal discussion pages, if the case is about normal discussion about relevance of Wikipedia's content. Klassikkomies accuses without the cause. -- Thi ( talk) 20:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Klassikkomies describing edits as 'vandalism' [68] and characterizing Thi's claims as 'lies' are uncivil. Thi's describing Klassikkomies edits as 'spam' [69] is uncivil. Klassikkomies posting standard warnings on Thi's page is not inherently uncivil. Thi is allowed to edit his talk page, including 'deletion' of warnings -- they're still present in the page history. See Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments. Recommend both users use article dispute resolution procedures. Gerardw ( talk) 21:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Thi constantly removed the following notable facts from the article (sources are provided after the sentences):
See discussion for more information. Klassikkomies ( talk) 21:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I've been accused many times (at least 5) by User:The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick [77] of being a 'sockpuppet' and he even went so far as to issue a checkuser request and he had the nerve to tell me to "promise that I will never do it [sockpuppetry] again" [78], I believe this is unacceptable in Wikipedia. He also said it in a wikipedia article [79]. Also last time he issued a checkuser request on me and he said he would apologize if I was innocent of being a sockpuppet but he never did, can you admins tell him to please behave? his insults are not justified. Thank you.-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, good, you made the request. Do you have the results yet? Part of Euro's complaint was that you said you would apologize if you were wrong and you didn't; did the checkuser come back yet? If so, I would assume Euro was not the sock you suspected him of being, but obviously if it did not come back yet we all would have to wait for the results. Theseeker4 ( talk) 01:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
User:Podomi moved the page Swedish-speaking Finns to Finland's Swedes violating the move procedure. The move was done without consensus, while the former location was reached after extensive move discussion which resulted in consensus (in Octorber 2006). Talk page gives a good overview of the conflict.-- MPorciusCato ( talk) 21:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)