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QuackGuru has consistently opposed any editing of the page for Larry Sanger for some time now, and a number of editors have tried to fix the article only to be deterred by the prospect of an edit war. See, for example [1].
After a fair amount of work reorganizing the article (among other improvements) by other editors, QuackGuru did a cut-and-paste revert to a version from a month prior, but claimed this was not a reversion [2]. I'm not the only editor to consider this inappropriate [3].
QuackGuru has now resorted to scattering all the "poor content" templates he knows throughout the article [4].
I've done an RfC on the article and another editor has asked for a third opinion, but the main problem seems to be that QuackGuru seems to be more focused on obstruction than offering any real contribution. (Even a "the introduction sucks" comment from another editor [5] was useful inasmuch as it prompted an attempt at improvement.) Rvcx ( talk) 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually RfC was tried about a month ago, and 3O a week or so. Not that I particularly want to get involved again, but RfC and 3O just haven't worked. — Ched ( talk) 04:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The page is protected now, making it a moot point, we'll see how that works. — Ched ( talk) 04:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Hey,
I'm having problems with Colonel Warden at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ann Barker (Civil Servant). I am struggling to believe he is assuming good faith (excuse the irony!) and he is more interested in attacking me and the steps I followed than discussing the matter at hand. I am worried I will lose my cool and would appreciate intervention.
Looking at his talk page, I see other people have had problems too. Computerjoe 's talk 15:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
If you want to ask "Is this notable?" the correct template is {{ notability}}, not {{ subst:afd1}}. AFD is where you come after you have determined, by doing your homework beforehand, that something is not notable. And if you've done your homework beforehand, then for goodness' sake state what you did in your nomination! The rest of the world are not mind-readers. Uncle G ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I've discovered discussions by users User:Spotfixer, User:RolandR, and User:Eleland, on User:Eleland's talkpage: Link.
I know rules on userpages are more relaxed than article talks, but this kind of anti-Israeli grouping has become quite common with the mentioned people. I don't mind if users who share similar opinions talk with each other, bu comments such as Jewish and obsessively Zionist admin baited me until he ran out of his 3 reverts, This confoems to a pattern of systematic abuse of anti-Zionist Jews, and vandalism of related articles, and Everywhere in the world it seems the law fucks the poor, weak and marginalized and supports the already rich and powerful. One would have thought a people's encyclopedia would be different.. User:ChrisO, an admin often involved in similar disputes hasn't responded to my message. He previously wanted user User:Brewcrewer temporarily blocked for this I understand your frustration. Since ChrisO was so experienced with these kinds of violations, I assumed he would be very concerned about my message: Questions but unfortunately, he hasn't responded.
I'm just honestly tired of some group of users being allowed to group up and talk about the evil Zionists while others continue to be warned/blocked for doing the same. This is all per Wiki not a battlefield and Wikihounding, though I'm sure some of you could find other rules that apply to this situation. Eleland has already been blocked for incivility for a separate incident but he continues to act inappropriate in his talk page. And, other editors have followed him.
Anyways, I don't know the exact punishments and to be honest I don't care...I simply want people to know what's going on. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 04:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This particular comment [6]] on my user space would be considered a personnal attack I think.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 03:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Hiya!
I wonder if someone (or ones) can stop by East-West Schism and Talk:East-West Schism. We're having several issues over there:
It'd be great to get a few new sets of eyes to look this one over. Thanks a lot! LOL thulu 22:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Outnumbering users in a dispute is not an excuse to edit war to hide or downplay the seriousness of the dispute. It's obvious on that discussion page that there are multiple disputes regarding the guide, by multiple users, that have yet to be concluded. Multiple advocates for a guide that is obviously WP:CREEP removed tags before discussion has ended to downplay the seriousness of the discussion [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. At one point a User:Kotniski modified the tags refusing to accept that there were multiple disputes [15] [16] [17]. I was falsely reported of violating WP:3RR just for fulfilling that same users request to complete his modified version of the tag [18] [19]. And then he reverted what he requested after all that [20] which was more of a violation of WP:3RR than my fulfillment of his request. He also removed the original RFC before the 30 days [21] since the only response hasn't been in favor of the guide [22]. Oicumayberight ( talk) 17:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
The AFD [ decision] was to Merge the article, not delete it. Please look at the discussion on the talk page for the author the information was to be merged to. Dream Focus ( talk) 00:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Collectionian and TheFarix. This does indeed look like some forum shopping by Dream Focus. Dream Focus is also making false accussations of personal attacks. Dream Focus, I hope that you re-read WP:NPA to get an understanding on what a personal attack is. Just because someone disagrees with you does not in any way mean that they are making personal attacks against you even if they being a little incivil, period. — Mythdon ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
As someone who just recently had an encounter with one of the editors mentioned in this heading, I have to say I sensed extreme "ownership" issues on the editor's part, and a tactic of goading other editors with overly aggressive actions and rhetoric. If another editor opposes in a similar manner, this is promptly reported as an "attack" at a discussion board. I found the whole experience disruptive, and I can only imagine how off-putting such behavior would be to a new editor, or one, such as myself, who innocently wandered into this editor's "territory". Dekkappai ( talk) 05:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I think this issue needs the intervention of an administrator. Dream Focus was forum shopping and making false accussations of personal attacks. If the issue gets taken to WP:AN or WP:ANI, can somebody notify me?. — Mythdon ( talk • contribs) 19:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I just happened to notice a user edit-warring and uncivilly dealing with other editors here. I am uninvolved, and wish to stay that way. Non Curat Lex ( talk) 22:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
How should I respond to this personal attack? His tactics involve ... general dishonesty, blatant lying, and general Wikilawyering , etc... He should be flat out banned from the wiki. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
That seems rather uncivilized. Dream Focus ( talk) 17:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
What I'm seeing from, in no particular order, Headbomb, Thunderbird2, Greg L, and Fnagaton are accusations not adequately supported by diffs. The referenced RFC/u is to me inconclusive. The idea that another user's conduct justifies violation of WP:CIVIL is incorrect. To be blunt, I am seeing evidence of a long-standing, mudslinging edit war. After six days, there is little evidence any third party editor wants to get involved. It is my suggestion the affected parties return to the appropriate talk page and begin WP:CIVIL, good faith discussions of the content issue. Gerardw ( talk) 23:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
All my statements are supported with diffs. As far as the rfc is concerned, it is no more than an escalation of Fnagaton's campaign of harassment, which includes multiple accusations of dishonesty and lying and accusing me, as usual without evidence, of operating 6 different sock-puppets here and one more here, making 7 in total. The rfc is not even worth the paper it's not written on. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 18:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
After reverting some vandalism from this IP user on various pages, I started receiving harassing messages on my talk page. I responded, on both my talk page and the user's talk page, for the harassment to end, or I would send this issue for moderation. Today, the user blanked the entire thread on my talk page (as can be seen in the page's history), replacing it with the line "Leave me alone!" I have reverted my talk page, leaving the user's comment as well as a notice of the vandalism, and have notified the user on both talk pages that I have decided to refer this matter for outside help. -- Ericdn ( talk) 20:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Moved from WP:AN/I. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 18:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I came across E dog95 ( talk · contribs · logs · block log) at the end of January when I observed the editor issuing 4im warnings [28], [29], [30] as a first warning for typically petty vandalism [31] [32], [33] and left a polite note about it. The editor pretty much rejected my advice stating he/she disagreed with WP:BITE and warns "losers". Ensuing coaching on civility was also rejected. Looking further, I realized a general problem with bad reversions: of cited edits because of non-english sources and edits labeled as vandalism that shouldn't be [34]. However, the editor thinks I'm the one with the issues so I backed off. However, since then, the editor has been blocked for 3RR, continues overzealous reversions/mislabeling vandalism: [35] and BITEing [36], [37].
I think this user is a prolific vandal fighter, and wants to contribute constructively, but doesn't want to accept (at least my) feeback about not understanding our policies/culture. I think having other folks weigh in and some focused coaching would be very helpful here. I thought about recommending removal of TW, but if we can get this editor using it correctly, it would be better. Thoughts? Toddst1 ( talk) 18:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) It looks like E dog95 hasn't editing in a few days, hopefully taking a break to recharge the batteries and his sanity :). Seriously, the edit about not giving multiple warnings and that attitude is troubling. I am no saint and I am happy to call folks bad faith editors or trolls after dealing with them repeatidly, but we do have to remember that there are true noobies around here and lots of good faith IP editors, ect.(i actualy would prefer to edit as an IP but dont) and that gently 1st warnings can't hurt. I am truely amazed when I vistit a talk page and it has like 30 warnings on it, come on! The level of frustration at having to deal with "stupid" people and vandals I am sure gets to all of us at times, but that is what wiki breaks and others imput is needed for. Anyways, just my venting. Cheers, -- Tom 16:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've been in a content dispute with Ukufwakfgr ( talk · contribs · logs) over the past week or so, during which he has consistently refused to assume good faith, has called other editors liars, told them that they were "not working from a good frame of mind", and appealed a block on the grounds that, essentially, the Masons made Elonka block him.
Last night, I noticed that he had added a bunch of references to Daigo Umehara that included exlinks in the authorlink field, so I cleaned them up, removing only the authorlinks. This morning, he sent me a note asking what was wrong with me, and reverting me with a note to read {{ Cite web}}, which he had apparently failed to do in as much detail as he wanted me to.
I'd honestly like him to settle down and become a productive member of Wikipedia: if we can't defend our arguments against determined opposition, are they really any good? But at this rate, I see him getting indef-blocked within the month. Can somebody who has the time to do it properly drop in and try to point him in the right direction? Make sure you read all of the discussion, so he can't accuse you of only reading the "scandalous parts", as in one of the diffs above.
Thanks.-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 14:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
by user:NawlinWiki indef
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wuhwuzdat is placing TfD tags anywhere except that purposed policy weither it be a good or bad edit and action must be taken.I will not stand for such immature behavior. Pickbothmanlol ( talk) 17:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
User:Wiki libs keeps on deleting sourced material without trying to discuss with me or find compromises. Also he uses offensive comments and tries to belittle me because of my language skills. English is not my mother tongue, so I may make mistakes. But still I think my english is comprehensible. Besides, if my english is wrong anyone is free to fix it. I don't see why this sourced passage should be deleted just for that.
But for some reasons this user keeps on belittling me because of my language. I tried to discuss and find a compromise, arguing that anyone can fix my english if it's so wrong. But he just seems to ignore and keeps on deleting and making condescending comments to bellitle the relevance of my edits:
I don't want to engage myself into a dispute or an edit war, so please, can anyone help or tell me what to do? Frankely speaking I consider the disputed passage is relevant for the article plus it is sourced with reliable scolar and referential published sources, so I don't see why it should deleted without any serious explanation. Fred D.Hunter ( talk) 18:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
In his original edit summary, the editor never claimed to write the poorly written content... he stated that he was replacing it after it had already been removed. So the comment about the poor quality of the text... or the fact that it was off topic and useless within the article in question.... was not directed at him. It was a general comment directed at the non-quality/off-topic aspect of the text... text which was likely added by several inexperienced users over a stretch of time where it started out bad... was never improved on... and ended up being a very un-required trivia tidbit within the song article. If the user felt that that my comment on the poorly written content was directed at him then I am sorry he made that mistake. His edit summary should have indicated that he wrote the text rather than just say he was re-adding it after it was justifiably deleted a long time ago for several reasons. As I have suggested in my own edit summary. A separate article about this so-called triad should be created. And if it were, then I would gladly help to improve it there. But it has no place in the article about the song so it was not worth working on there. The best overall edit was to simply restore the article to its earlier state. The Real Libs- speak politely 19:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Amanda and I have been making progress on the layout of images on the Leonardo da Vinci article and posting on each other's talk pages, unfortunately this suddenly escalated when Amanda came to my talk page and posted: "PLEEEASE stop stuffing around...You have never worked as a layout artist, that is patently obvious!....I'm really busy and I get sick of having to revert layout edits that are a) not good solutions b) look bad c) diminish important pictures d)cause gaps in text when viewed on a wide screen." Amanda did also say that "I know you are meaning to be helpful. But too strenuous application of a set of rules can make things worse not better. You have editorial skills in other areas! Please use them!" I responded here [42] Although well-intentioned, the editor has preferences regarding having large images in articles, regardless of accessibility. I have brought this here because, in spite of the warm words at the end of her post, the earlier attacks were sufficiently unjustified. Tom B ( talk) 15:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If its appropriate to request this and you have time, would you please check out comments made at Talk:Python_reticulatus#Debate_regarding_length_claims_made_by_various_zoos and Talk:Python_reticulatus#Verifiability. It is my position that I've endured days of personal attacks and incivility from User:Mokele and User:Jwinius.
I've lost count of how many times I've encouraged courtesy in these users. Ultimately, this dispute is about a claim made by User:Mokele and User:Jwinius to disallow certain content at Python_reticulatus#Captivity that they deem unencyclopedic. Thanks for considering my comments. -- -- Boston ( talk) 20:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the article twice today (Feb 14th) in my timezone (EST). The appearance of a third time is me correcting my edit summary. If I did in fact violate this rule, it wasn't my intention. If I violated the spirit of this rule in recent days (I don't think I did but...), I'll own responsibility for that. I'm happy to sit back and wait for Administrator involvement. I'm not interested in more conversation with these users until the profanity, incivility, and personal attacks stop. Comments from User:Mokele are particularly inappropriate:
Comments from User:Jwinius aren't relatively minor breaches of civility:
Thanks for considering this situation. -- Boston ( talk) 21:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, how dare we get frustrated by a user who repeatedly inserts garbage into a page in spite of being given very good reason not to, fails to provide any worthwhile reasoning on why it should be included, refuses any attempt at compromise, and still drags this out. It's like dealing a creationist. Mokele ( talk) 21:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and so it's abundantly clear, Boston has not made the least bit of effort, even after several posts here, to inform Jwinius of the existence of this discussion. I had to inform him myself. Good faith indeed. Mokele ( talk) 22:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, has crossed a freaking line. AFTER this discussion was terminated by Edit Centric, Boston seems to have done NOTHING to try to work towards a compromise as instructed, but instead recruited even more admins/'higher-ups', and polluted my talk page with more of his dreck about me being incivil. He just cannot let this lie, even for a few hours. Consider this a formal complaint about his behavior with respect to this issue.
Mokele (
talk)
00:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Boston, *real* scientists have better things to do than run around with a tape measure checking every stupid and pointless claim a zoo makes. And I've got better things to do than put up with your puerile crap because your feelings got hurt. Mokele ( talk) 00:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems to come down to the fact that major news sites report information about the size of a python, which are later disproven, and that zoos exaggerate regularly. There is apparently no way to determine the exact size of a living python. So while the wikipedia rules say that you can include anything that you can reference as being from a major newspaper, in this case it shouldn't be done, since they don't bother to verify claims for stories like this, and apparently often get them wrong. If it isn't scientifically proven and confirmable, then it shouldn't be in there. Anyway, have a consensus on the talk page about the issue, and see what everyone else believes, and then follow the consensus. Don't do an edit war. And even during a dispute, try not to be insulting or hostile, no matter how frustrated you get. Dream Focus 02:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I need help in dealing with the SPA Doktorspin. He is very insulting, and incivil towards other users, ridiculus them, and does not assume good faith.
Examples from Talk:Nativity of Jesus:
Example from AN/I:
Example from user talk:
Evident in his edit summaries:
Demonstrative that I'm not the only one who finds him incivil:
Thanks for any help rendered. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I find the accusation of SPA quite disheartening. However, with the singleminded refusal of Carl to enter into a dialog over the material he continually removes extremely rude and aggressive. It occupies a lot of my time trying to find some way to make the material acceptable only to have it unconstructively removed again. He has been dauntingly unhelpful in the issue and I will admit that I have let anger of his behavior get to my comments.
I do not understand his refusal to deal with the issue. Can I sincerely assume good faith when he has continually made it clear that dialog is not open?
I attempted to halt the removal of the material in order to force a dialog, by putting in a 3RR against him. William M. Connolley responded by assuming that I wanted Carl blocked rather than the topic and I failed to get any dialog.
This is a very daunting process. -- spin control 22:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I came here a few days ago after being accused of lying by User:Headbomb (and the claim was repeated here also by User:Fnagaton). I was asked by gerardw to take the discussion back to the talk page, where I have now been accused of harassment by Fnagaton [66] and invited to sell leprosy by User:Greg_L [67]. What should I do now? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
T-bird: You are without a doubt a WP:Single-purpose account ( your contributions and your user page) dedicated to a lost cause and are purely WP:disruptive to Wikipedia. If you persist at this, I can certainly abandon employing glib, dismissive humor in my dealings with you, and will be more than pleased to deal with your disruption in the manner befitting here. Greg L ( talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of alleged provocation, these posts [68] [69] by Greg_L contain abusive taunts. They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor" Cuddlyable3 ( talk) 13:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I’m thinking that you are still smarting over my adding
this animation to the Mandelbrot set article and you deleted it. Splendid *contribution* there; I spent hours with three separate programs to make it and keep it ultra-compact for fast load times ,and your *contribution* is to hit the “undo” link. So, we editwarred over that, and you
came here to WQA to whine about a post of mine, and got soundly rejected and the blame placed on you for creating the conflict in the first place. That seems to be what you do: create editing conflict with others while simultaneously hiding behind a veneer of wikiword civility. Looking at your contributions, you seem to make frequent use of WQA’s as an editwarring tactic as you were here only eight days ago. Perhaps you’ve honed this tactic and find it a useful. However, it reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting at Coalition forces (oops, I did it again: I used a “war” metaphor).
Finally, all this was back in November; get over it. I note your block log, where one admin wrote Continued Disruptive editing despite warnings and opposing consensus from editors and/or administrators. So, just pardon me all over the place for not endeavoring to be more like you in my editing behavior and interactions with others; it doesn’t impress. Greg L ( talk) 18:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)Re. strikeout on 14 February 2009, see below
Greg L, your sarcasm and unique metaphors/similes towards others are truly provocative. Agreeably, they are rhetorical and not meant to be taken at all literally. However, how you say things is causing the problems here. Are you admitting above that you may have "criticized or mocked" someones "ideas or behavior"?? If yes, welcome to the land of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
On second though, you just might be right about this. Perhaps Wikipedia is a venue where even really, really bad behavior should not be criticized because everything is relative—even *truth*. So, although I don’t exactly completely wholeheartedly agree with your belief system wherein it is improper to criticize others’ tendentious and disruptive behavior here on Wikipedia (doing so might make them feel poopy about themselves), I give you an A+ for effort! Thanks. I’ll try to do much better next time.
And, to (finally) answer your question directly, yes; I freely admit that I have criticized Thunderbird’s behavior here. (*sound of audience gasp*) Greg L ( talk) 22:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
• Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.
• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.
If someone here wants to make it against Wikipedia policy to employ facetious and glib metaphors to tell another editor that no one likes his or her idea, first go revise WP:No personal attacks. I conform my behavior to the community consensus on what constitutes a personal attack; not your interpretation of it. Now…
T-bird’s professing being “attacked” is pure wikilawyering to circumvent the inconvenient truth that he is being tendentious and disruptive and wants to persist at it. Anyone who has had the misfortune of having had to deal with T-bird understands this. User:Theseeker4 hasn’t had to deal with T-bird and still managed to write an extremely insightful post that hit the nail right on the head.
Now, no one is really that thin-skinned here; they just pretend to be in order to create wikidrama or to impress others with how they can write absurdly politically correct ramblings in hopes that it somehow qualifies them to be an admin. It doesn’t. Either that, or they are spouting off here without fully understanding the basic facts. Either way, I’m quite done here. Goodbye.
P.S. I don’t care if you drink beer, Gerardw; I doubt anyone does, but I will defend your right to proudly proclaim that fact on the privately owned Wikipedia Foundation. Greg L ( talk) 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Two more of Fnagaton's unfounded accusations of lying: [70] [71]. It seems he is unable or unwilling to follow WP:AGF. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 11:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I've had enough of this one. It's obvious by Fnagaton's "holier than thou" attitude that they will never admit to having been part of this issue. Thunderbird's recent addition to the WQA did nothing but harm his "case". Based on your actions, the two of you are not meant for a community. There's not much more I can do than to recommend RFC/U's against the both of you for your actions, as at this point they're not blockable. Good luck to you both. If someone else wants to take up the mantle with this one, please go ahead, but to me, neither of these two actually want to become good community editors of Wikipedia. I'm out. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 00:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I've warned User:Greg L about civility and left a warning for User:Thunderbird2 about tendentious editing and forum shopping. Gwen Gale ( talk) 11:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Something tells me I didn't get through to him. Gwen Gale ( talk) 16:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)\
Greg_L has chosen to make claims above about me though I am uninvolved in his dispute. I commend editors here who see that as irrelevant. Greg_L's claim that I deleted his animation is untrue. (In fact I edited [73] 4 words of text he wrote. That edit has not been contested, not even by Greg_L.) A libellous falsehood goes beyond incivility and is not tolerable. Greg_L is aware that WP:Civility states “[incivility includes] Lies, including deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead one or more editors.” I take the direct action of STRIKING (though not deleting) Greg_L's falsehood above. I do this on my own responsibility and refer to the record[ [74]].
I see no reason to respond to Greg_L's inspection of a block log from 2007.
Where we got crosswise was your being uncivil to me here on Talk:Mandelbrot set and me getting a little cross with you for it. That precipitated what I would call, a wikilawyering action on your part where you came to this very venue to file a WQA about my behavior. That resulted in this correction, where Bwilkins (“BMW”) wrote as follows:
Wow, you egg him on, then seem surprised that he [Greg L] got a little upset? He hasn't even been uncivil towards anyone in particular ... there's no violation of WP:NPA that I can see - in fact, your previous post to the diff you provided was rather provocative, and more along the lines of WP:NPA. He responded in a snarky manner to your snarkiness. Perhaps you need to take a few steps back and see cause/effect.
Please satisfy yourself by inspecting the record that I have never deleted any animation you have submitted. If that is understood, I wish no barrier to our civil collaboration in future.
Greg L continues to post at voluble length his taunts, gratuitous references to diseases, his pet phrases such as "excuse me all over the place", continual assumption that his opinions represent "we" not "I" and presumption that Wikipedia is the place for his efforts at "dismissive humor" and "facetious metaphor". [78]. Examples of Greg_L's abusive comments include: "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine about how other editors failed to leave an after-dinner mint on your pillow.." later exacerbated [79]with an ilustration as "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine." and "..reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting..". This behaviour follows the WQA [80] (which follows a previous WQA [81]) that I raised about Greg_L's incivility, which one hoped had put an end to Greg_L's ad hominem name calling such as balled[sic] faced, Mayor of the M-set and censor. I do not see that warnings to Greg_L have achieved the necessary improvement in his behaviour. Cuddlyable3 ( talk) 12:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
One is reluctant to apply sanction to one of our hardest working contributors. It is fine when Greg_L apologises when confronted with a mistaken allegation. It is not fine that he made such an allegation without bothering to check the record that he inconveniently forgot. It is not fine to raise a content dispute, whether or not it exists as he believed, as an irrelevant distraction here. This WQA and previous WQAs all concern Greg_L's behaviour. Greg_L's stance in the references is unremittingly combative. The project in which all of us are active is to create a new encyclopedia, not to exercise smear tactics by means of vituperative sarcasm. It is not okay to denigrate other editors as whining babies or disease spreaders. It was not okay to link me to terrorist shooting. The list of Greg_L's vitriolic metaphors could go on but the community cannot let that happen. It must stop now. The principle WP:POINT is serious and relevant here. It does not assess whether a POV is correct or not. It puts focus on when disruption is caused that threatens the collaborative environment that we need to protect. That disruption can be measured by the burden of one editor provoking a string (3) of WQAs that must stop here. Editor's views have been expressed at length. A block has been envisaged. I agree with Gwen Gale who is mindful of the reason blocks are imposed. A 24 hour block is lenient and is no significant punishment. It serves as a signal that Greg_L's behaviour has transgressed our collective standards and that there is consensus that it must stop, if necessary by escalating blocks later.
This WQA is now closed; if you desire blocks or other binding disciplinary measures, then please try an administrator noticeboard - none will be issued here as clearly stipulated near the top of this WQA page. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
An anonymous editor, or possibly more than one, has been inserting a crudely worded section onto the talk page for Wilfred Thesiger. Here's one diff where I've removed a vulgarity. I am not a prude -- I am happily editing cunt -- and do not object to the underlying question, but the tone seems out of place in an encyclopedia. I know the bios of dead people are treated with less kid gloves than those of the living, and talkpages have more latitude than mainspace, but still, there are limits. What is the correct procedure for dealing with this? I don't want to break WP:3RR. Is it the same for anon editors as for accounts? I have nowhere to leave a message for the editor(s), even if I knew what to say. BrainyBabe ( talk) 00:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
In White Brazilian Talk Page: [85] [86] Is it possible for someone to talk to this user about this behaviour? Ninguém ( talk) 01:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I object to him removing Fact Tags where the links are broken, and then, when called on it, making completely unrelated comments, including misconstruing my positions, that constitute ad hominems.
I am open to formal mediation. Ninguém ( talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
By the way, his aggressions and attempts to put words in my mouth seem to have escalated:
[89] Ninguém ( talk) 18:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
He's getting bolder, perhaps because he's thinking that no further discussion here is an endorsement of his behaviour:
Accuses me of vandalism, for an edit clearly intended to improve the article. Refuses to explain what he finds wrong with the edit, but unendling repeat that I have "suppressed information" and "added wrong information", both of which are false. Plus, seems to think it is a good idea to repeat that I "use phone books as source", which is blatantly false.
Calls my attempts to civilly discuss the issues at the Talk Page "obsessive". Is clearly "gaming the system", "wikilawyering", to keep information he knows that is false - his idea that White Brazilians previous to the Great Immigration were not of Portuguese descent. Has an idea that there exists an objective, "correct" concept of White races, which is contrary to the mainstream consensus that races are social constructs, and bases his edits on such idea.
Please, take a look at that, and talk to him about this. This editor has already been blocked twice for incivility; he has managed to make a lot of Brazilian editors quit either posting on Brazilian population articles, or Wikipedia at large. Ninguém ( talk) 04:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
This would be interesting to settle the content dispute. But here I am complaining about his incivility. I particularly resent his repeated assertion that I use phone books as a source, even where this does not have anything with the discussion, such as in "Genetic Researchs" in the Talk Page. Ninguém ( talk) 06:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit Centric, there evidently is a content dispute. I have taken that issue to WP:3O. But the content dispute is the environment in which civility issues rise. For instance, the edit I made in "Genetic Research": perhaps it is wrong, and should be replaced by a different text. But it clearly is not "vandalism", nor it removed any information that was previously there. However, Opinoso cannot simply revert it; he has to claim that I am removing information, which constitutes vandalism [94] [95]. Then, when I take the discussion to the Talk Page, he repeats the accusation that I removed information, and accuses me of vandalism:
You can't be serious [17]. Not only removed informations, but also substituted the original text for a confusing, nonsense explanation for Y Chromossome and mtDNA. Do not remove sourced informations: vandalism.
Again asked to explain himself, here he comes again:
You included unsourced informations and even worse: wrong informations. Also, you erased informations. Lots of vandalism in a single post.
But at least this time he comes with an attempt to explain his disagreement with my edit, in which he essentially rephrases my edit, but insists that a complete line of ancestors is the same thing as a "single ancestor". And then adds,
What's this? Nonsense, unsourced and wrong information. It's even hilarious. Please, if you are not able to understand these differences, do not post in this article.
And, though it does not have anything to do with the edit in question, he brings it:
Moreover, do not use Phone Books as source, please.
The "phone books as source" is completely false. I never used phone books as a source. I merely referred to them in the Talk Page, in a rhetorical question.
In the context of discussing the "ethnicity" of White Brazilians, this could perhaps be construed as an excessively harsh way of making a point. In the context of a different discussion, however, it is an ad hominem. It means, "you don't have the right to an opinion on the genetics of chromosome Y, because you have expressed an opinion that I deem ridiculous on the subject of Brazilian surnames".
The overall behaviour seems to be this:
1. If anyone edits the article in disagreement with his ideas, revert the edits. Repeat until 3RR becomes an issue.
2. If anyone makes more than one edit, and he disagrees with only one of them, revert all of them in a single move.
3. Try to avoid discussion on the Talk Page. Instead, take the discussion on the content to WQA, ANI, etc. Use the Talk Page preferably to discuss etiquette and procedural issues.
4. If impossible to avoid content discussion at the Talk Page, manage to make it a hellish experience to the other editor(s). Hopefully, they will get tired of trying to improve the article, and quit messing with his feudal domain on Brazilian demography/ethnography.
All of this may involve content issues, but it seems to me to also involve civility issues.
Thank you for your patience. I hope I'm not abusing it, or breaking any rules in posting this here. Ninguém ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, he's back to stonewalling:
I will stop "discussing" with him, so that all this can stop and leave you administrators take care of him. Thank you. Opinoso (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2009
Ninguém ( talk) 14:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry... but when I got to WP:DR, it says that this is the place to deal with uncivil posters.
On the content dispute, I'm trying to discuss it in the article's Talk Page. With the results I have posted above:
I will stop "discussing" with him, so that all this can stop and leave you administrators take care of him. Thank you. Opinoso (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2009
It seems a nice situation. I can't edit the page without discussing. I can't discuss, since the other editor doesn't want to. I can't complain about such behaviour here, because it is a content issue. And nobody is able to take a position on the content dispute, because the sources are in Portuguese. Ninguém ( talk) 18:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
This user is an editor on both en.wikipedia.org and ru.wikipedia.org, and has been editing the article on asteroid 1999 RQ36. This object is the subject of current research, in particular radar shape modeling (I am very familiar with the work, although I am not a coauthor on the paper that is in preparation), as well as having a series of potential Earth impacts in the late 22nd century (hence the article).
On JPL's near-Earth object website (neo.jpl.nasa.gov), we routinely provide rough size estimates based on optical data, which we state are uncertain by up to ±50%. For RQ36, the optical diameter estimate is 560 m. The Arecibo and Goldstone radar data have provided a much more accurate size estimate (510 m ± 50 m). I therefore changed the article to reflect this, and cited "Nolan et al. 2009 in prep.". Камень contended that an article in preparation is not a reliable source, so I have linked a conference abstract describing the shape modeling and our online logs of the radar observations (see the article). Even this has not satisfied Камень, and he posted the uncertain value back to the article (here and on ru), and left this message on my talk page: "Next your action will call sys-op justice".
I consider this to be a simple misunderstanding on Камень's part, but it might be a good idea for one of the admins to explain that calling sys-op is not the preferred way to resolve a minor dispute. Also, have I breached etiquette by revising size estimates in the RQ36 article on ru.wikipedia.org and explaining my edits in English (my keyboard is not configured for Cyrillic characters)? I don't intend to return from retirement, but I have professional interest in RQ36. Thanks. Michaelbusch ( talk) 04:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
it's passive aggressive, and that is not conducive to calm discourse. i made a single edit to an article, reverting one editor's edit - the first time i've ever reverted that editor. there's no basis for suggesting it constitutes "edit-warring". i'm aware that 3RR can be applied to a single edit - but that's in a case where an editor has previously been warned about a 3RR violation, and is skirting the spirit of the rule. this doesn't even show up on that radar. i acknowledge that Twinkle makes it easy to apply such tags and warnings, but perhaps it makes it a bit too easy, because in this case all it managed to do is piss me off, being unjustly accused of edit warring where no such state obtains. the tag bombing: [96]. i've made my feelings known on the talk page of the article in question - which, frankly, is where the edit should have been discussed in the first place by user saltyboatr, rather than doing drive-by tag bombing. Anastrophe ( talk) 07:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a long term problem and long term pattern of edit warring here, and I am trying to be helpful to break that habitual problem. Do you have advice of how to bring back collaboration to the editing there? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 17:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
And a point of fact here, Yaf and Anastrophe are in fact engaged in 'tag team' edit warring the good faith edits by use Hauskalainen. See the history [97]. How shall I encourage collaborative editing instead of this ongoing edit warring? Are edit war warnings on talk pages hostile acts? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 17:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) This is neither the time nor the place to air dirty laundry, dredge up old grievances or start direct incivility. I am therefore STRONGLY WARNING both of you to cease the above conversation track before it reaches that ugliness. It's getting us nowhere in resolving the issue at hand. That has already been addressed, and SaltyBoatr has been accordingly counseled in the finer art of the prudent issuance of warnings. In fact, there's a bit of dirty laundry there that I could have aired, but chose not to, giving the editor (and you know who I am referring to) the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who reads me here at WQA knows that I am a very patient, reasonable and honest person. Honestly, the sniping here needs to stop. If y'all have a content dispute, address it in a calm, concise manner on the article's talk page. Otherwise, it doesn't need said. Here are a few things for you to remember;
These are things that we learn in grade school, but unfortunately seem to forget as our lives become jaded by becoming adults. Everyone following this would do well to take these examples to heart, and try harder at applying them here. With that being said, let's put what's already done to bed, and concentrate on collaborating on what should become a good article. That is what we're here for. Edit Centric ( talk) 08:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
New person adding to complaints against SaltyBoatr. FYI: I currently have two different computers connected to two different internet services. Earlier today the other(newer) computer was banned for a 3RR violation which never happened as a result of what I believe to be a report by SaltyBoatr.
The computer was posting under ID 141.154.110.173. I was posting on the Second Amendment board. Revision history is here so you can confirm that a 3RR violation never happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&action=history
While there was an undo war earlier today, I stopped at 2 while the other person went to 3, realized he had stepped over the line and we then discussed the situation and reached a mutually satisfactory solution which resulted in him reverting one of his own reverts bringing his revert count to 2. I do not wish that person harassed unless he is the one reporting the bogus 3rr violation. The issue has been settled and I consider it closed.
SaltyBoart however, after a dispute over the validity of source material used in the Second Amendment article threated to have me reported for a 3RR as as well as a NPOV violation - here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:141.154.110.173
Since other editors have been having problems with Salty Boatr I cut and pasted the complaint in the discussion page with the disputed issue so that other authors were aware of his activities - here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
See section # 22 Additional POV bias issue - Chicago-Kent Law Review Issue 76 for full details of the dispute. It may be bit confusing since yet a third person (Philo-Centinel) hacked the complaint
As part of this complaint I wish to ask for remedial action for this harassment and ask that SaltyBoatr be banned to the maximum amount allowed by wiki for harassmewnt. 4.154.237.88 ( talk) 05:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Comparison of wiki farms is frequently used for personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, and the like. Most recently, I requested that editor 2005 refactor his latest comment User_talk:2005#Talk:Comparison_of_wiki_farms_2. In response to editor 2005's comment, editor Timeshifter has escalated the situation considerably [100]. I think it's time for some outside help. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a debate on the article Christian Bale as to what should be his nationality in the lead sentence. For some time, it was agreed to leave it at 'Welsh Born English Actor'. Prom3th3an then changed this to 'Welsh Born British Actor' with no comments left on the talk page, but the revision was marked
"English is certainly an inappropriate term in this case, conventional wisdom says British is the better word. Continual reversion will result in protection and or blocks."
No explanation was given as to why 'English' is was inappropriate term and why conventional wisdom says 'British' is better"
It was then debated again and User:Ha! did an analysis which revealed that most on the talk page preferred 'English Actor', but the infobox showed he was born in Wales. So this was changed. Promethean reverted this with the explanation:
"Rv To conventional standard established on talk apge"
No conventional standard has been established, the only one that has was 'English'. So this was reverted. I also left a message at Prometheans talk page asking him to comment on his changes. [101].
Promethean has returned to the page, changed it - left no comments on the talk page as requested, but with the edit note:
"Rv to conventional method. Please google the lead words, or must I spell everything out to you."
This is not particularly useful or constructive. So any advice please? White43 ( talk) 08:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
This user has been using uncivil language on Talk:Pink Floyd#Sales (a section which he initiated) while discussing what may be a legitimate complaint about another issue being discussed on Talk:Led Zeppelin. He has been warned by other editors including myself, and clearly regards these warnings as hostile, and feels the need to counter-attack; see especially his latest post [102] which I reverted. I would also like to apologize for my edit summary on my revert of this; in a previous post I warned the user his posts look like trolling (but not actually saying this is his intention), and on the edit summary I mentioned "trolling" as a reason for the revert, and may have been out of line making that accusation (which, of course, I can't undo). -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 11:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Ok, most of the diff's you provided are your posts, and not the "offensive" ones. However, I have been able to see a few of the editors comments. So far, I fail to see any of them as violations of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA. If he thinks you're an admin, then he simply doesn't understand how Wikipedia works. I see valid discussions of sources and article inclusions, and cannot see any points of incivility. Maybe I'm blind, or maybe I'm too neutral to see what may be perceived nuances? ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
By the by, I apologize if I'm taking the "no nonsense" approach to the WQA alerts, someone hasn't had their coffee today! (The Mr. Coffee went on the fritz this morning!) Edit Centric ( talk) 22:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Follow-up note: Another editor put back the talk page post I reverted, and admonished me (in the edit summary) for reverting it. I presume he did not realize I posted this alert. I've pointed him to here from his talk page. Hopefully he doesn't put it back again; I don't want to get into an edit war over this! If that happens, can someone make a decision on whether the removal was appropriate? That was never discussed here, so I presume nobody had a problem with that action. -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 22:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Am I allowed to write here? I honestly don't purport that I don't know, and I don't expect you to give me a break, even though I'm a girlfriendless teenager! =P. But it seems as though you have given me a break, or I just managed to stay in line (Maybe I deserve some cred, even!). Well, Knight Ni obviously got insulted by my way of answering (that metaphor is there for a reason and it's quite good!), but me too by his appropriately far-from-discussable responds. This following example refers to his "analysis" and gives my side of the incident. Imagine yourself eating breakfast with your pal, discussing something rather important, and you slightly disagree, then all of a sudden, mid-sentence, he goes: "...you're eating pancakes with jam and sugar, your eyes indicate tiredness, you should get some sleep, using a bed...", all because your way of talking rubs him on the wrong side. Wouldn't that justify a "please keep your [...] to yourself."? It's true I've been a member for some time which, of course, raise expectations for one's knowledge about how things are handled about and everything, but my added activity here on wikipedia equals a month of your time spent here, tops. Yeah, I don't know how things really work here, and that has been pointed out to me several times, and I've been deliberately ignorant about it in some occasions. What was not pointed out here or anywhere else when naming my warning from last summer, however, is that I inspired a number of other, equally-experienced (not as experienced as you guys) editors, who shared my opinion and who thought that discussion led anywhere. backed me up, "He may be a little uncivil, but he's right" and so on. The more experienced editors whose opinion we opposed were left with nothing but wikipedia regulations and the reliable sources-argument, even when it comes to things as genres, but that's all it took, and that was that. But again, that don't give me no breaks. Well, I wouldn't say your intension with this discussion falls flat to the floor, Knight, and you kept a straight face all the way through, subtly stressing your experience and ambition within this site, and your unwillingness to be at fault. But like I said, the fact that you've taken offense pervades this whole thing. You say you won't even talk to me me anymore, which was demonstrated just now on the PF page. I wondered where your immediate respond went, and now I know. Good thing HexaChord stepped in. I don't know where this goes. Am I at fault? Can I start a counter-discussion about Knight? Do I have to apologize? I guess this is why I sometimes oppose these ways and deliberately ignore requests. This whole trial-thing freaks me out (see "The Trial" from "The Wall"). I didn't even know this thing was going on until now. Revan ltrl ( talk) 23:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Good thing then I didn't ignore it. I'd like A Knight Who Says Ni advised as well. How do I get underway? Revan ltrl ( talk) 16:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I've asked and then warned Victor several times to stop editing my comments at Talk:Charles_Whitman. It doesn't seem to be doing any good - in the more recent instances ( [109], [110], [111], [112], [113]), he's getting more aggressive and outright deleting them. In his defense, he disclaimed knowledge of the second recent instance: "Can you explain Aimaeiji, how your edit here [ [114]] got posted by my account? Jwy posted the link to my talk page, I know nothing about it, or how my account posted your content.-- Victor9876 ( talk) 21:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)" were his actual words.
When I took a look at his talk page, it appears others have had the same problem. If someone could politely advise him that this is a Very Bad Idea, I would appreciate it. It seems highly unlikely that anything I say at this point will matter, if this is any indication. arimareiji ( talk) 17:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) All moot point, consider yourself warned. Re-review of these diffs and edits yielded this, which is vandalisation of another user's talk page. You don't remove talk comments from another user's talk or user page, and insert your own. Added to the 3RR, civility and other content removal shenanigans, I'm this close (place index finger and thumb approximately 1 cm apart) to recommending a block, if the shenanigans continue. Edit Centric ( talk) 04:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
From the talk page, do you notice who used chutzpuh? Who's baiting? I did not copy and paste from anyone, that one still baffles me, Jwy admitted it was probably a cross edit conflict on WP's part. 3RR I admit, blanking to remove uncivil exchanges I admit. The warning not to antagonize me was from the exchange below! Moot point or not! Warning acknowledged.-- Victor9876 ( talk) 05:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
If you want to file a Request for Comment to bring in more fresh eyes, by policy you're always welcome to do so and I would wholeheartedly endorse it. As the old saying goes, "Many hands make light work." If I misunderstood and you're upset at the idea of more fresh eyes on the article, I'm afraid it's neither desirable nor possible to make any article an exclusive club. arimareiji (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't addressing you, you're apparently afraid a lot. Let Jwy answer on his own.Victor9876 (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Answer what? "Insult insult mock stop quoting policy la la la insult mock insult stop quoting rules insult chutzpah chutzpah demand demand, does this answer your concerns?" doesn't seem like much of a question. arimareiji (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
What I see is someone who helped another person with an employment issue get it straightened out. That in turn sparked his interest in the Whitman case. What I see here is that he has then used what he learned from his interest in the Whitman case to add a lot of content to this particular page. And yes, I think that avoiding the pages where he had a modicum of involvement with the subject is trying to avoid COI. I also see that this childish back and forth continues to deteriorate and again, I'd recommend everyone take a step back, a deep breath and slow down. I thought that responding to WP:3O involved working on the content that was under dispute. All I'm currently seeing is a pissing contest. Are you actually here to help with a third opinion on content or to chastise an editor? Can you actually point to anything that was added to the article itself that has skewed the facts of the article in some way to benefit this editor or paint something in an inappropriate light? I was under the impression that the content dispute was about something else entirely. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
WP:3O is about providing a third opinion between two editors who are resolved to disagree, not mediation and not to work on the article. I saw an editor who has a history of fighting with multiple editors, so I should have explicitly noted I was not speaking in the capacity of a "third opinion" - you can't be a third opinion when you're the fifth or sixth to see the same thing. Your familiarity with the page may have made it less obvious - sometimes it takes an outsider, or a new editor, to notice a pattern that builds over time. If you review the recent history, I believe you'll see the same pattern of advocacy rather than neutral editing. arimareiji (talk) 23:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I believe this is an issue that deteriorated and wasn't completely one-sided. I don't believe you can find on User talk:Victor9876 a pattern of arguing over things, since most of the edits were from me, and I can state plainly that it was not incivil, no matter how someone might interpret it. No, I don't agree with refactoring talk pages, and I told Victor this. Having said that, I also have to say that it was my impression that arimareiji began his involvement on a note that seemed contentious to me, and yes, I did speak up and counsel that everyone take a step back, a deep breath and start over. But I don't see that it was completely one sided. At some point, Jwy said he would be away and would continue upon his return. Everything being discussed here happened in the interim, so it was never clear to me that arimareiji was speaking as an effort to actually assist in the debate that had been going on. It was certainly never addressed in any way that I could see, so I have to wonder how helpful it was when the first comments were not what I would consider helpful. I would suggest at this point that Victor stop messing with the previous posts and accept the admonition to stop doing so, arimareiji either address the concerns that were being debated and the issues at hand be considered re: the article or let it go, and the personal back and forth stop on the article talk page, because that is disrupting the editing process. Just my opinion. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 15:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Answer what? "Insult insult mock stop quoting policy la la la insult mock insult stop quoting rules insult chutzpah chutzpah demand demand, does this answer your concerns?" doesn't seem like much of a question. arimareiji (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The exchange above follows a question directed by Jwy to me. You jumped in and suggested several things that I could do. I replied as above that you were not the one involved and you retorted with...Answer what? "Insult...mock...chutzpah., etc., does that answer your concerns?". Since the last part, "does that answer your concerns?" was a direct quote from me in the ex-change, and you replied in an uncivil way, refactoring my comment to Jwy, I felt that you personally attacked me and denigrated me on the Talk page. I don't know how many rules were broken there, but personal attack, refactoring and incivility are the ones that I think are there. Tell me if I'm wrong?-- Victor9876 ( talk) 21:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page. |
QuackGuru has consistently opposed any editing of the page for Larry Sanger for some time now, and a number of editors have tried to fix the article only to be deterred by the prospect of an edit war. See, for example [1].
After a fair amount of work reorganizing the article (among other improvements) by other editors, QuackGuru did a cut-and-paste revert to a version from a month prior, but claimed this was not a reversion [2]. I'm not the only editor to consider this inappropriate [3].
QuackGuru has now resorted to scattering all the "poor content" templates he knows throughout the article [4].
I've done an RfC on the article and another editor has asked for a third opinion, but the main problem seems to be that QuackGuru seems to be more focused on obstruction than offering any real contribution. (Even a "the introduction sucks" comment from another editor [5] was useful inasmuch as it prompted an attempt at improvement.) Rvcx ( talk) 05:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually RfC was tried about a month ago, and 3O a week or so. Not that I particularly want to get involved again, but RfC and 3O just haven't worked. — Ched ( talk) 04:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The page is protected now, making it a moot point, we'll see how that works. — Ched ( talk) 04:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Hey,
I'm having problems with Colonel Warden at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ann Barker (Civil Servant). I am struggling to believe he is assuming good faith (excuse the irony!) and he is more interested in attacking me and the steps I followed than discussing the matter at hand. I am worried I will lose my cool and would appreciate intervention.
Looking at his talk page, I see other people have had problems too. Computerjoe 's talk 15:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
If you want to ask "Is this notable?" the correct template is {{ notability}}, not {{ subst:afd1}}. AFD is where you come after you have determined, by doing your homework beforehand, that something is not notable. And if you've done your homework beforehand, then for goodness' sake state what you did in your nomination! The rest of the world are not mind-readers. Uncle G ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I've discovered discussions by users User:Spotfixer, User:RolandR, and User:Eleland, on User:Eleland's talkpage: Link.
I know rules on userpages are more relaxed than article talks, but this kind of anti-Israeli grouping has become quite common with the mentioned people. I don't mind if users who share similar opinions talk with each other, bu comments such as Jewish and obsessively Zionist admin baited me until he ran out of his 3 reverts, This confoems to a pattern of systematic abuse of anti-Zionist Jews, and vandalism of related articles, and Everywhere in the world it seems the law fucks the poor, weak and marginalized and supports the already rich and powerful. One would have thought a people's encyclopedia would be different.. User:ChrisO, an admin often involved in similar disputes hasn't responded to my message. He previously wanted user User:Brewcrewer temporarily blocked for this I understand your frustration. Since ChrisO was so experienced with these kinds of violations, I assumed he would be very concerned about my message: Questions but unfortunately, he hasn't responded.
I'm just honestly tired of some group of users being allowed to group up and talk about the evil Zionists while others continue to be warned/blocked for doing the same. This is all per Wiki not a battlefield and Wikihounding, though I'm sure some of you could find other rules that apply to this situation. Eleland has already been blocked for incivility for a separate incident but he continues to act inappropriate in his talk page. And, other editors have followed him.
Anyways, I don't know the exact punishments and to be honest I don't care...I simply want people to know what's going on. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 04:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This particular comment [6]] on my user space would be considered a personnal attack I think.-- Jojhutton ( talk) 03:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Hiya!
I wonder if someone (or ones) can stop by East-West Schism and Talk:East-West Schism. We're having several issues over there:
It'd be great to get a few new sets of eyes to look this one over. Thanks a lot! LOL thulu 22:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Outnumbering users in a dispute is not an excuse to edit war to hide or downplay the seriousness of the dispute. It's obvious on that discussion page that there are multiple disputes regarding the guide, by multiple users, that have yet to be concluded. Multiple advocates for a guide that is obviously WP:CREEP removed tags before discussion has ended to downplay the seriousness of the discussion [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. At one point a User:Kotniski modified the tags refusing to accept that there were multiple disputes [15] [16] [17]. I was falsely reported of violating WP:3RR just for fulfilling that same users request to complete his modified version of the tag [18] [19]. And then he reverted what he requested after all that [20] which was more of a violation of WP:3RR than my fulfillment of his request. He also removed the original RFC before the 30 days [21] since the only response hasn't been in favor of the guide [22]. Oicumayberight ( talk) 17:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
The AFD [ decision] was to Merge the article, not delete it. Please look at the discussion on the talk page for the author the information was to be merged to. Dream Focus ( talk) 00:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Collectionian and TheFarix. This does indeed look like some forum shopping by Dream Focus. Dream Focus is also making false accussations of personal attacks. Dream Focus, I hope that you re-read WP:NPA to get an understanding on what a personal attack is. Just because someone disagrees with you does not in any way mean that they are making personal attacks against you even if they being a little incivil, period. — Mythdon ( talk • contribs) 04:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
As someone who just recently had an encounter with one of the editors mentioned in this heading, I have to say I sensed extreme "ownership" issues on the editor's part, and a tactic of goading other editors with overly aggressive actions and rhetoric. If another editor opposes in a similar manner, this is promptly reported as an "attack" at a discussion board. I found the whole experience disruptive, and I can only imagine how off-putting such behavior would be to a new editor, or one, such as myself, who innocently wandered into this editor's "territory". Dekkappai ( talk) 05:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I think this issue needs the intervention of an administrator. Dream Focus was forum shopping and making false accussations of personal attacks. If the issue gets taken to WP:AN or WP:ANI, can somebody notify me?. — Mythdon ( talk • contribs) 19:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I just happened to notice a user edit-warring and uncivilly dealing with other editors here. I am uninvolved, and wish to stay that way. Non Curat Lex ( talk) 22:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
How should I respond to this personal attack? His tactics involve ... general dishonesty, blatant lying, and general Wikilawyering , etc... He should be flat out banned from the wiki. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
That seems rather uncivilized. Dream Focus ( talk) 17:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
What I'm seeing from, in no particular order, Headbomb, Thunderbird2, Greg L, and Fnagaton are accusations not adequately supported by diffs. The referenced RFC/u is to me inconclusive. The idea that another user's conduct justifies violation of WP:CIVIL is incorrect. To be blunt, I am seeing evidence of a long-standing, mudslinging edit war. After six days, there is little evidence any third party editor wants to get involved. It is my suggestion the affected parties return to the appropriate talk page and begin WP:CIVIL, good faith discussions of the content issue. Gerardw ( talk) 23:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
All my statements are supported with diffs. As far as the rfc is concerned, it is no more than an escalation of Fnagaton's campaign of harassment, which includes multiple accusations of dishonesty and lying and accusing me, as usual without evidence, of operating 6 different sock-puppets here and one more here, making 7 in total. The rfc is not even worth the paper it's not written on. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 18:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
After reverting some vandalism from this IP user on various pages, I started receiving harassing messages on my talk page. I responded, on both my talk page and the user's talk page, for the harassment to end, or I would send this issue for moderation. Today, the user blanked the entire thread on my talk page (as can be seen in the page's history), replacing it with the line "Leave me alone!" I have reverted my talk page, leaving the user's comment as well as a notice of the vandalism, and have notified the user on both talk pages that I have decided to refer this matter for outside help. -- Ericdn ( talk) 20:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Moved from WP:AN/I. -- MZMcBride ( talk) 18:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I came across E dog95 ( talk · contribs · logs · block log) at the end of January when I observed the editor issuing 4im warnings [28], [29], [30] as a first warning for typically petty vandalism [31] [32], [33] and left a polite note about it. The editor pretty much rejected my advice stating he/she disagreed with WP:BITE and warns "losers". Ensuing coaching on civility was also rejected. Looking further, I realized a general problem with bad reversions: of cited edits because of non-english sources and edits labeled as vandalism that shouldn't be [34]. However, the editor thinks I'm the one with the issues so I backed off. However, since then, the editor has been blocked for 3RR, continues overzealous reversions/mislabeling vandalism: [35] and BITEing [36], [37].
I think this user is a prolific vandal fighter, and wants to contribute constructively, but doesn't want to accept (at least my) feeback about not understanding our policies/culture. I think having other folks weigh in and some focused coaching would be very helpful here. I thought about recommending removal of TW, but if we can get this editor using it correctly, it would be better. Thoughts? Toddst1 ( talk) 18:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) It looks like E dog95 hasn't editing in a few days, hopefully taking a break to recharge the batteries and his sanity :). Seriously, the edit about not giving multiple warnings and that attitude is troubling. I am no saint and I am happy to call folks bad faith editors or trolls after dealing with them repeatidly, but we do have to remember that there are true noobies around here and lots of good faith IP editors, ect.(i actualy would prefer to edit as an IP but dont) and that gently 1st warnings can't hurt. I am truely amazed when I vistit a talk page and it has like 30 warnings on it, come on! The level of frustration at having to deal with "stupid" people and vandals I am sure gets to all of us at times, but that is what wiki breaks and others imput is needed for. Anyways, just my venting. Cheers, -- Tom 16:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've been in a content dispute with Ukufwakfgr ( talk · contribs · logs) over the past week or so, during which he has consistently refused to assume good faith, has called other editors liars, told them that they were "not working from a good frame of mind", and appealed a block on the grounds that, essentially, the Masons made Elonka block him.
Last night, I noticed that he had added a bunch of references to Daigo Umehara that included exlinks in the authorlink field, so I cleaned them up, removing only the authorlinks. This morning, he sent me a note asking what was wrong with me, and reverting me with a note to read {{ Cite web}}, which he had apparently failed to do in as much detail as he wanted me to.
I'd honestly like him to settle down and become a productive member of Wikipedia: if we can't defend our arguments against determined opposition, are they really any good? But at this rate, I see him getting indef-blocked within the month. Can somebody who has the time to do it properly drop in and try to point him in the right direction? Make sure you read all of the discussion, so he can't accuse you of only reading the "scandalous parts", as in one of the diffs above.
Thanks.-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 14:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
by user:NawlinWiki indef
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wuhwuzdat is placing TfD tags anywhere except that purposed policy weither it be a good or bad edit and action must be taken.I will not stand for such immature behavior. Pickbothmanlol ( talk) 17:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
User:Wiki libs keeps on deleting sourced material without trying to discuss with me or find compromises. Also he uses offensive comments and tries to belittle me because of my language skills. English is not my mother tongue, so I may make mistakes. But still I think my english is comprehensible. Besides, if my english is wrong anyone is free to fix it. I don't see why this sourced passage should be deleted just for that.
But for some reasons this user keeps on belittling me because of my language. I tried to discuss and find a compromise, arguing that anyone can fix my english if it's so wrong. But he just seems to ignore and keeps on deleting and making condescending comments to bellitle the relevance of my edits:
I don't want to engage myself into a dispute or an edit war, so please, can anyone help or tell me what to do? Frankely speaking I consider the disputed passage is relevant for the article plus it is sourced with reliable scolar and referential published sources, so I don't see why it should deleted without any serious explanation. Fred D.Hunter ( talk) 18:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
In his original edit summary, the editor never claimed to write the poorly written content... he stated that he was replacing it after it had already been removed. So the comment about the poor quality of the text... or the fact that it was off topic and useless within the article in question.... was not directed at him. It was a general comment directed at the non-quality/off-topic aspect of the text... text which was likely added by several inexperienced users over a stretch of time where it started out bad... was never improved on... and ended up being a very un-required trivia tidbit within the song article. If the user felt that that my comment on the poorly written content was directed at him then I am sorry he made that mistake. His edit summary should have indicated that he wrote the text rather than just say he was re-adding it after it was justifiably deleted a long time ago for several reasons. As I have suggested in my own edit summary. A separate article about this so-called triad should be created. And if it were, then I would gladly help to improve it there. But it has no place in the article about the song so it was not worth working on there. The best overall edit was to simply restore the article to its earlier state. The Real Libs- speak politely 19:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Amanda and I have been making progress on the layout of images on the Leonardo da Vinci article and posting on each other's talk pages, unfortunately this suddenly escalated when Amanda came to my talk page and posted: "PLEEEASE stop stuffing around...You have never worked as a layout artist, that is patently obvious!....I'm really busy and I get sick of having to revert layout edits that are a) not good solutions b) look bad c) diminish important pictures d)cause gaps in text when viewed on a wide screen." Amanda did also say that "I know you are meaning to be helpful. But too strenuous application of a set of rules can make things worse not better. You have editorial skills in other areas! Please use them!" I responded here [42] Although well-intentioned, the editor has preferences regarding having large images in articles, regardless of accessibility. I have brought this here because, in spite of the warm words at the end of her post, the earlier attacks were sufficiently unjustified. Tom B ( talk) 15:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If its appropriate to request this and you have time, would you please check out comments made at Talk:Python_reticulatus#Debate_regarding_length_claims_made_by_various_zoos and Talk:Python_reticulatus#Verifiability. It is my position that I've endured days of personal attacks and incivility from User:Mokele and User:Jwinius.
I've lost count of how many times I've encouraged courtesy in these users. Ultimately, this dispute is about a claim made by User:Mokele and User:Jwinius to disallow certain content at Python_reticulatus#Captivity that they deem unencyclopedic. Thanks for considering my comments. -- -- Boston ( talk) 20:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the article twice today (Feb 14th) in my timezone (EST). The appearance of a third time is me correcting my edit summary. If I did in fact violate this rule, it wasn't my intention. If I violated the spirit of this rule in recent days (I don't think I did but...), I'll own responsibility for that. I'm happy to sit back and wait for Administrator involvement. I'm not interested in more conversation with these users until the profanity, incivility, and personal attacks stop. Comments from User:Mokele are particularly inappropriate:
Comments from User:Jwinius aren't relatively minor breaches of civility:
Thanks for considering this situation. -- Boston ( talk) 21:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, how dare we get frustrated by a user who repeatedly inserts garbage into a page in spite of being given very good reason not to, fails to provide any worthwhile reasoning on why it should be included, refuses any attempt at compromise, and still drags this out. It's like dealing a creationist. Mokele ( talk) 21:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and so it's abundantly clear, Boston has not made the least bit of effort, even after several posts here, to inform Jwinius of the existence of this discussion. I had to inform him myself. Good faith indeed. Mokele ( talk) 22:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Ok, has crossed a freaking line. AFTER this discussion was terminated by Edit Centric, Boston seems to have done NOTHING to try to work towards a compromise as instructed, but instead recruited even more admins/'higher-ups', and polluted my talk page with more of his dreck about me being incivil. He just cannot let this lie, even for a few hours. Consider this a formal complaint about his behavior with respect to this issue.
Mokele (
talk)
00:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Boston, *real* scientists have better things to do than run around with a tape measure checking every stupid and pointless claim a zoo makes. And I've got better things to do than put up with your puerile crap because your feelings got hurt. Mokele ( talk) 00:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems to come down to the fact that major news sites report information about the size of a python, which are later disproven, and that zoos exaggerate regularly. There is apparently no way to determine the exact size of a living python. So while the wikipedia rules say that you can include anything that you can reference as being from a major newspaper, in this case it shouldn't be done, since they don't bother to verify claims for stories like this, and apparently often get them wrong. If it isn't scientifically proven and confirmable, then it shouldn't be in there. Anyway, have a consensus on the talk page about the issue, and see what everyone else believes, and then follow the consensus. Don't do an edit war. And even during a dispute, try not to be insulting or hostile, no matter how frustrated you get. Dream Focus 02:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I need help in dealing with the SPA Doktorspin. He is very insulting, and incivil towards other users, ridiculus them, and does not assume good faith.
Examples from Talk:Nativity of Jesus:
Example from AN/I:
Example from user talk:
Evident in his edit summaries:
Demonstrative that I'm not the only one who finds him incivil:
Thanks for any help rendered. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I find the accusation of SPA quite disheartening. However, with the singleminded refusal of Carl to enter into a dialog over the material he continually removes extremely rude and aggressive. It occupies a lot of my time trying to find some way to make the material acceptable only to have it unconstructively removed again. He has been dauntingly unhelpful in the issue and I will admit that I have let anger of his behavior get to my comments.
I do not understand his refusal to deal with the issue. Can I sincerely assume good faith when he has continually made it clear that dialog is not open?
I attempted to halt the removal of the material in order to force a dialog, by putting in a 3RR against him. William M. Connolley responded by assuming that I wanted Carl blocked rather than the topic and I failed to get any dialog.
This is a very daunting process. -- spin control 22:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I came here a few days ago after being accused of lying by User:Headbomb (and the claim was repeated here also by User:Fnagaton). I was asked by gerardw to take the discussion back to the talk page, where I have now been accused of harassment by Fnagaton [66] and invited to sell leprosy by User:Greg_L [67]. What should I do now? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
T-bird: You are without a doubt a WP:Single-purpose account ( your contributions and your user page) dedicated to a lost cause and are purely WP:disruptive to Wikipedia. If you persist at this, I can certainly abandon employing glib, dismissive humor in my dealings with you, and will be more than pleased to deal with your disruption in the manner befitting here. Greg L ( talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of alleged provocation, these posts [68] [69] by Greg_L contain abusive taunts. They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor" Cuddlyable3 ( talk) 13:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I’m thinking that you are still smarting over my adding
this animation to the Mandelbrot set article and you deleted it. Splendid *contribution* there; I spent hours with three separate programs to make it and keep it ultra-compact for fast load times ,and your *contribution* is to hit the “undo” link. So, we editwarred over that, and you
came here to WQA to whine about a post of mine, and got soundly rejected and the blame placed on you for creating the conflict in the first place. That seems to be what you do: create editing conflict with others while simultaneously hiding behind a veneer of wikiword civility. Looking at your contributions, you seem to make frequent use of WQA’s as an editwarring tactic as you were here only eight days ago. Perhaps you’ve honed this tactic and find it a useful. However, it reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting at Coalition forces (oops, I did it again: I used a “war” metaphor).
Finally, all this was back in November; get over it. I note your block log, where one admin wrote Continued Disruptive editing despite warnings and opposing consensus from editors and/or administrators. So, just pardon me all over the place for not endeavoring to be more like you in my editing behavior and interactions with others; it doesn’t impress. Greg L ( talk) 18:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)Re. strikeout on 14 February 2009, see below
Greg L, your sarcasm and unique metaphors/similes towards others are truly provocative. Agreeably, they are rhetorical and not meant to be taken at all literally. However, how you say things is causing the problems here. Are you admitting above that you may have "criticized or mocked" someones "ideas or behavior"?? If yes, welcome to the land of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
On second though, you just might be right about this. Perhaps Wikipedia is a venue where even really, really bad behavior should not be criticized because everything is relative—even *truth*. So, although I don’t exactly completely wholeheartedly agree with your belief system wherein it is improper to criticize others’ tendentious and disruptive behavior here on Wikipedia (doing so might make them feel poopy about themselves), I give you an A+ for effort! Thanks. I’ll try to do much better next time.
And, to (finally) answer your question directly, yes; I freely admit that I have criticized Thunderbird’s behavior here. (*sound of audience gasp*) Greg L ( talk) 22:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
• Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.
• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.
If someone here wants to make it against Wikipedia policy to employ facetious and glib metaphors to tell another editor that no one likes his or her idea, first go revise WP:No personal attacks. I conform my behavior to the community consensus on what constitutes a personal attack; not your interpretation of it. Now…
T-bird’s professing being “attacked” is pure wikilawyering to circumvent the inconvenient truth that he is being tendentious and disruptive and wants to persist at it. Anyone who has had the misfortune of having had to deal with T-bird understands this. User:Theseeker4 hasn’t had to deal with T-bird and still managed to write an extremely insightful post that hit the nail right on the head.
Now, no one is really that thin-skinned here; they just pretend to be in order to create wikidrama or to impress others with how they can write absurdly politically correct ramblings in hopes that it somehow qualifies them to be an admin. It doesn’t. Either that, or they are spouting off here without fully understanding the basic facts. Either way, I’m quite done here. Goodbye.
P.S. I don’t care if you drink beer, Gerardw; I doubt anyone does, but I will defend your right to proudly proclaim that fact on the privately owned Wikipedia Foundation. Greg L ( talk) 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Two more of Fnagaton's unfounded accusations of lying: [70] [71]. It seems he is unable or unwilling to follow WP:AGF. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 11:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I've had enough of this one. It's obvious by Fnagaton's "holier than thou" attitude that they will never admit to having been part of this issue. Thunderbird's recent addition to the WQA did nothing but harm his "case". Based on your actions, the two of you are not meant for a community. There's not much more I can do than to recommend RFC/U's against the both of you for your actions, as at this point they're not blockable. Good luck to you both. If someone else wants to take up the mantle with this one, please go ahead, but to me, neither of these two actually want to become good community editors of Wikipedia. I'm out. ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 00:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I've warned User:Greg L about civility and left a warning for User:Thunderbird2 about tendentious editing and forum shopping. Gwen Gale ( talk) 11:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Something tells me I didn't get through to him. Gwen Gale ( talk) 16:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)\
Greg_L has chosen to make claims above about me though I am uninvolved in his dispute. I commend editors here who see that as irrelevant. Greg_L's claim that I deleted his animation is untrue. (In fact I edited [73] 4 words of text he wrote. That edit has not been contested, not even by Greg_L.) A libellous falsehood goes beyond incivility and is not tolerable. Greg_L is aware that WP:Civility states “[incivility includes] Lies, including deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead one or more editors.” I take the direct action of STRIKING (though not deleting) Greg_L's falsehood above. I do this on my own responsibility and refer to the record[ [74]].
I see no reason to respond to Greg_L's inspection of a block log from 2007.
Where we got crosswise was your being uncivil to me here on Talk:Mandelbrot set and me getting a little cross with you for it. That precipitated what I would call, a wikilawyering action on your part where you came to this very venue to file a WQA about my behavior. That resulted in this correction, where Bwilkins (“BMW”) wrote as follows:
Wow, you egg him on, then seem surprised that he [Greg L] got a little upset? He hasn't even been uncivil towards anyone in particular ... there's no violation of WP:NPA that I can see - in fact, your previous post to the diff you provided was rather provocative, and more along the lines of WP:NPA. He responded in a snarky manner to your snarkiness. Perhaps you need to take a few steps back and see cause/effect.
Please satisfy yourself by inspecting the record that I have never deleted any animation you have submitted. If that is understood, I wish no barrier to our civil collaboration in future.
Greg L continues to post at voluble length his taunts, gratuitous references to diseases, his pet phrases such as "excuse me all over the place", continual assumption that his opinions represent "we" not "I" and presumption that Wikipedia is the place for his efforts at "dismissive humor" and "facetious metaphor". [78]. Examples of Greg_L's abusive comments include: "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine about how other editors failed to leave an after-dinner mint on your pillow.." later exacerbated [79]with an ilustration as "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine." and "..reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting..". This behaviour follows the WQA [80] (which follows a previous WQA [81]) that I raised about Greg_L's incivility, which one hoped had put an end to Greg_L's ad hominem name calling such as balled[sic] faced, Mayor of the M-set and censor. I do not see that warnings to Greg_L have achieved the necessary improvement in his behaviour. Cuddlyable3 ( talk) 12:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
One is reluctant to apply sanction to one of our hardest working contributors. It is fine when Greg_L apologises when confronted with a mistaken allegation. It is not fine that he made such an allegation without bothering to check the record that he inconveniently forgot. It is not fine to raise a content dispute, whether or not it exists as he believed, as an irrelevant distraction here. This WQA and previous WQAs all concern Greg_L's behaviour. Greg_L's stance in the references is unremittingly combative. The project in which all of us are active is to create a new encyclopedia, not to exercise smear tactics by means of vituperative sarcasm. It is not okay to denigrate other editors as whining babies or disease spreaders. It was not okay to link me to terrorist shooting. The list of Greg_L's vitriolic metaphors could go on but the community cannot let that happen. It must stop now. The principle WP:POINT is serious and relevant here. It does not assess whether a POV is correct or not. It puts focus on when disruption is caused that threatens the collaborative environment that we need to protect. That disruption can be measured by the burden of one editor provoking a string (3) of WQAs that must stop here. Editor's views have been expressed at length. A block has been envisaged. I agree with Gwen Gale who is mindful of the reason blocks are imposed. A 24 hour block is lenient and is no significant punishment. It serves as a signal that Greg_L's behaviour has transgressed our collective standards and that there is consensus that it must stop, if necessary by escalating blocks later.
This WQA is now closed; if you desire blocks or other binding disciplinary measures, then please try an administrator noticeboard - none will be issued here as clearly stipulated near the top of this WQA page. Ncmvocalist ( talk) 14:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
An anonymous editor, or possibly more than one, has been inserting a crudely worded section onto the talk page for Wilfred Thesiger. Here's one diff where I've removed a vulgarity. I am not a prude -- I am happily editing cunt -- and do not object to the underlying question, but the tone seems out of place in an encyclopedia. I know the bios of dead people are treated with less kid gloves than those of the living, and talkpages have more latitude than mainspace, but still, there are limits. What is the correct procedure for dealing with this? I don't want to break WP:3RR. Is it the same for anon editors as for accounts? I have nowhere to leave a message for the editor(s), even if I knew what to say. BrainyBabe ( talk) 00:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
In White Brazilian Talk Page: [85] [86] Is it possible for someone to talk to this user about this behaviour? Ninguém ( talk) 01:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I object to him removing Fact Tags where the links are broken, and then, when called on it, making completely unrelated comments, including misconstruing my positions, that constitute ad hominems.
I am open to formal mediation. Ninguém ( talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
By the way, his aggressions and attempts to put words in my mouth seem to have escalated:
[89] Ninguém ( talk) 18:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
He's getting bolder, perhaps because he's thinking that no further discussion here is an endorsement of his behaviour:
Accuses me of vandalism, for an edit clearly intended to improve the article. Refuses to explain what he finds wrong with the edit, but unendling repeat that I have "suppressed information" and "added wrong information", both of which are false. Plus, seems to think it is a good idea to repeat that I "use phone books as source", which is blatantly false.
Calls my attempts to civilly discuss the issues at the Talk Page "obsessive". Is clearly "gaming the system", "wikilawyering", to keep information he knows that is false - his idea that White Brazilians previous to the Great Immigration were not of Portuguese descent. Has an idea that there exists an objective, "correct" concept of White races, which is contrary to the mainstream consensus that races are social constructs, and bases his edits on such idea.
Please, take a look at that, and talk to him about this. This editor has already been blocked twice for incivility; he has managed to make a lot of Brazilian editors quit either posting on Brazilian population articles, or Wikipedia at large. Ninguém ( talk) 04:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
This would be interesting to settle the content dispute. But here I am complaining about his incivility. I particularly resent his repeated assertion that I use phone books as a source, even where this does not have anything with the discussion, such as in "Genetic Researchs" in the Talk Page. Ninguém ( talk) 06:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit Centric, there evidently is a content dispute. I have taken that issue to WP:3O. But the content dispute is the environment in which civility issues rise. For instance, the edit I made in "Genetic Research": perhaps it is wrong, and should be replaced by a different text. But it clearly is not "vandalism", nor it removed any information that was previously there. However, Opinoso cannot simply revert it; he has to claim that I am removing information, which constitutes vandalism [94] [95]. Then, when I take the discussion to the Talk Page, he repeats the accusation that I removed information, and accuses me of vandalism:
You can't be serious [17]. Not only removed informations, but also substituted the original text for a confusing, nonsense explanation for Y Chromossome and mtDNA. Do not remove sourced informations: vandalism.
Again asked to explain himself, here he comes again:
You included unsourced informations and even worse: wrong informations. Also, you erased informations. Lots of vandalism in a single post.
But at least this time he comes with an attempt to explain his disagreement with my edit, in which he essentially rephrases my edit, but insists that a complete line of ancestors is the same thing as a "single ancestor". And then adds,
What's this? Nonsense, unsourced and wrong information. It's even hilarious. Please, if you are not able to understand these differences, do not post in this article.
And, though it does not have anything to do with the edit in question, he brings it:
Moreover, do not use Phone Books as source, please.
The "phone books as source" is completely false. I never used phone books as a source. I merely referred to them in the Talk Page, in a rhetorical question.
In the context of discussing the "ethnicity" of White Brazilians, this could perhaps be construed as an excessively harsh way of making a point. In the context of a different discussion, however, it is an ad hominem. It means, "you don't have the right to an opinion on the genetics of chromosome Y, because you have expressed an opinion that I deem ridiculous on the subject of Brazilian surnames".
The overall behaviour seems to be this:
1. If anyone edits the article in disagreement with his ideas, revert the edits. Repeat until 3RR becomes an issue.
2. If anyone makes more than one edit, and he disagrees with only one of them, revert all of them in a single move.
3. Try to avoid discussion on the Talk Page. Instead, take the discussion on the content to WQA, ANI, etc. Use the Talk Page preferably to discuss etiquette and procedural issues.
4. If impossible to avoid content discussion at the Talk Page, manage to make it a hellish experience to the other editor(s). Hopefully, they will get tired of trying to improve the article, and quit messing with his feudal domain on Brazilian demography/ethnography.
All of this may involve content issues, but it seems to me to also involve civility issues.
Thank you for your patience. I hope I'm not abusing it, or breaking any rules in posting this here. Ninguém ( talk) 14:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, he's back to stonewalling:
I will stop "discussing" with him, so that all this can stop and leave you administrators take care of him. Thank you. Opinoso (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2009
Ninguém ( talk) 14:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry... but when I got to WP:DR, it says that this is the place to deal with uncivil posters.
On the content dispute, I'm trying to discuss it in the article's Talk Page. With the results I have posted above:
I will stop "discussing" with him, so that all this can stop and leave you administrators take care of him. Thank you. Opinoso (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2009
It seems a nice situation. I can't edit the page without discussing. I can't discuss, since the other editor doesn't want to. I can't complain about such behaviour here, because it is a content issue. And nobody is able to take a position on the content dispute, because the sources are in Portuguese. Ninguém ( talk) 18:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
This user is an editor on both en.wikipedia.org and ru.wikipedia.org, and has been editing the article on asteroid 1999 RQ36. This object is the subject of current research, in particular radar shape modeling (I am very familiar with the work, although I am not a coauthor on the paper that is in preparation), as well as having a series of potential Earth impacts in the late 22nd century (hence the article).
On JPL's near-Earth object website (neo.jpl.nasa.gov), we routinely provide rough size estimates based on optical data, which we state are uncertain by up to ±50%. For RQ36, the optical diameter estimate is 560 m. The Arecibo and Goldstone radar data have provided a much more accurate size estimate (510 m ± 50 m). I therefore changed the article to reflect this, and cited "Nolan et al. 2009 in prep.". Камень contended that an article in preparation is not a reliable source, so I have linked a conference abstract describing the shape modeling and our online logs of the radar observations (see the article). Even this has not satisfied Камень, and he posted the uncertain value back to the article (here and on ru), and left this message on my talk page: "Next your action will call sys-op justice".
I consider this to be a simple misunderstanding on Камень's part, but it might be a good idea for one of the admins to explain that calling sys-op is not the preferred way to resolve a minor dispute. Also, have I breached etiquette by revising size estimates in the RQ36 article on ru.wikipedia.org and explaining my edits in English (my keyboard is not configured for Cyrillic characters)? I don't intend to return from retirement, but I have professional interest in RQ36. Thanks. Michaelbusch ( talk) 04:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
it's passive aggressive, and that is not conducive to calm discourse. i made a single edit to an article, reverting one editor's edit - the first time i've ever reverted that editor. there's no basis for suggesting it constitutes "edit-warring". i'm aware that 3RR can be applied to a single edit - but that's in a case where an editor has previously been warned about a 3RR violation, and is skirting the spirit of the rule. this doesn't even show up on that radar. i acknowledge that Twinkle makes it easy to apply such tags and warnings, but perhaps it makes it a bit too easy, because in this case all it managed to do is piss me off, being unjustly accused of edit warring where no such state obtains. the tag bombing: [96]. i've made my feelings known on the talk page of the article in question - which, frankly, is where the edit should have been discussed in the first place by user saltyboatr, rather than doing drive-by tag bombing. Anastrophe ( talk) 07:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a long term problem and long term pattern of edit warring here, and I am trying to be helpful to break that habitual problem. Do you have advice of how to bring back collaboration to the editing there? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 17:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
And a point of fact here, Yaf and Anastrophe are in fact engaged in 'tag team' edit warring the good faith edits by use Hauskalainen. See the history [97]. How shall I encourage collaborative editing instead of this ongoing edit warring? Are edit war warnings on talk pages hostile acts? SaltyBoatr ( talk) 17:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) This is neither the time nor the place to air dirty laundry, dredge up old grievances or start direct incivility. I am therefore STRONGLY WARNING both of you to cease the above conversation track before it reaches that ugliness. It's getting us nowhere in resolving the issue at hand. That has already been addressed, and SaltyBoatr has been accordingly counseled in the finer art of the prudent issuance of warnings. In fact, there's a bit of dirty laundry there that I could have aired, but chose not to, giving the editor (and you know who I am referring to) the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who reads me here at WQA knows that I am a very patient, reasonable and honest person. Honestly, the sniping here needs to stop. If y'all have a content dispute, address it in a calm, concise manner on the article's talk page. Otherwise, it doesn't need said. Here are a few things for you to remember;
These are things that we learn in grade school, but unfortunately seem to forget as our lives become jaded by becoming adults. Everyone following this would do well to take these examples to heart, and try harder at applying them here. With that being said, let's put what's already done to bed, and concentrate on collaborating on what should become a good article. That is what we're here for. Edit Centric ( talk) 08:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
New person adding to complaints against SaltyBoatr. FYI: I currently have two different computers connected to two different internet services. Earlier today the other(newer) computer was banned for a 3RR violation which never happened as a result of what I believe to be a report by SaltyBoatr.
The computer was posting under ID 141.154.110.173. I was posting on the Second Amendment board. Revision history is here so you can confirm that a 3RR violation never happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution&action=history
While there was an undo war earlier today, I stopped at 2 while the other person went to 3, realized he had stepped over the line and we then discussed the situation and reached a mutually satisfactory solution which resulted in him reverting one of his own reverts bringing his revert count to 2. I do not wish that person harassed unless he is the one reporting the bogus 3rr violation. The issue has been settled and I consider it closed.
SaltyBoart however, after a dispute over the validity of source material used in the Second Amendment article threated to have me reported for a 3RR as as well as a NPOV violation - here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:141.154.110.173
Since other editors have been having problems with Salty Boatr I cut and pasted the complaint in the discussion page with the disputed issue so that other authors were aware of his activities - here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
See section # 22 Additional POV bias issue - Chicago-Kent Law Review Issue 76 for full details of the dispute. It may be bit confusing since yet a third person (Philo-Centinel) hacked the complaint
As part of this complaint I wish to ask for remedial action for this harassment and ask that SaltyBoatr be banned to the maximum amount allowed by wiki for harassmewnt. 4.154.237.88 ( talk) 05:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Comparison of wiki farms is frequently used for personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, and the like. Most recently, I requested that editor 2005 refactor his latest comment User_talk:2005#Talk:Comparison_of_wiki_farms_2. In response to editor 2005's comment, editor Timeshifter has escalated the situation considerably [100]. I think it's time for some outside help. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a debate on the article Christian Bale as to what should be his nationality in the lead sentence. For some time, it was agreed to leave it at 'Welsh Born English Actor'. Prom3th3an then changed this to 'Welsh Born British Actor' with no comments left on the talk page, but the revision was marked
"English is certainly an inappropriate term in this case, conventional wisdom says British is the better word. Continual reversion will result in protection and or blocks."
No explanation was given as to why 'English' is was inappropriate term and why conventional wisdom says 'British' is better"
It was then debated again and User:Ha! did an analysis which revealed that most on the talk page preferred 'English Actor', but the infobox showed he was born in Wales. So this was changed. Promethean reverted this with the explanation:
"Rv To conventional standard established on talk apge"
No conventional standard has been established, the only one that has was 'English'. So this was reverted. I also left a message at Prometheans talk page asking him to comment on his changes. [101].
Promethean has returned to the page, changed it - left no comments on the talk page as requested, but with the edit note:
"Rv to conventional method. Please google the lead words, or must I spell everything out to you."
This is not particularly useful or constructive. So any advice please? White43 ( talk) 08:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
This user has been using uncivil language on Talk:Pink Floyd#Sales (a section which he initiated) while discussing what may be a legitimate complaint about another issue being discussed on Talk:Led Zeppelin. He has been warned by other editors including myself, and clearly regards these warnings as hostile, and feels the need to counter-attack; see especially his latest post [102] which I reverted. I would also like to apologize for my edit summary on my revert of this; in a previous post I warned the user his posts look like trolling (but not actually saying this is his intention), and on the edit summary I mentioned "trolling" as a reason for the revert, and may have been out of line making that accusation (which, of course, I can't undo). -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 11:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Ok, most of the diff's you provided are your posts, and not the "offensive" ones. However, I have been able to see a few of the editors comments. So far, I fail to see any of them as violations of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA. If he thinks you're an admin, then he simply doesn't understand how Wikipedia works. I see valid discussions of sources and article inclusions, and cannot see any points of incivility. Maybe I'm blind, or maybe I'm too neutral to see what may be perceived nuances? ( talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
By the by, I apologize if I'm taking the "no nonsense" approach to the WQA alerts, someone hasn't had their coffee today! (The Mr. Coffee went on the fritz this morning!) Edit Centric ( talk) 22:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Follow-up note: Another editor put back the talk page post I reverted, and admonished me (in the edit summary) for reverting it. I presume he did not realize I posted this alert. I've pointed him to here from his talk page. Hopefully he doesn't put it back again; I don't want to get into an edit war over this! If that happens, can someone make a decision on whether the removal was appropriate? That was never discussed here, so I presume nobody had a problem with that action. -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 22:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Am I allowed to write here? I honestly don't purport that I don't know, and I don't expect you to give me a break, even though I'm a girlfriendless teenager! =P. But it seems as though you have given me a break, or I just managed to stay in line (Maybe I deserve some cred, even!). Well, Knight Ni obviously got insulted by my way of answering (that metaphor is there for a reason and it's quite good!), but me too by his appropriately far-from-discussable responds. This following example refers to his "analysis" and gives my side of the incident. Imagine yourself eating breakfast with your pal, discussing something rather important, and you slightly disagree, then all of a sudden, mid-sentence, he goes: "...you're eating pancakes with jam and sugar, your eyes indicate tiredness, you should get some sleep, using a bed...", all because your way of talking rubs him on the wrong side. Wouldn't that justify a "please keep your [...] to yourself."? It's true I've been a member for some time which, of course, raise expectations for one's knowledge about how things are handled about and everything, but my added activity here on wikipedia equals a month of your time spent here, tops. Yeah, I don't know how things really work here, and that has been pointed out to me several times, and I've been deliberately ignorant about it in some occasions. What was not pointed out here or anywhere else when naming my warning from last summer, however, is that I inspired a number of other, equally-experienced (not as experienced as you guys) editors, who shared my opinion and who thought that discussion led anywhere. backed me up, "He may be a little uncivil, but he's right" and so on. The more experienced editors whose opinion we opposed were left with nothing but wikipedia regulations and the reliable sources-argument, even when it comes to things as genres, but that's all it took, and that was that. But again, that don't give me no breaks. Well, I wouldn't say your intension with this discussion falls flat to the floor, Knight, and you kept a straight face all the way through, subtly stressing your experience and ambition within this site, and your unwillingness to be at fault. But like I said, the fact that you've taken offense pervades this whole thing. You say you won't even talk to me me anymore, which was demonstrated just now on the PF page. I wondered where your immediate respond went, and now I know. Good thing HexaChord stepped in. I don't know where this goes. Am I at fault? Can I start a counter-discussion about Knight? Do I have to apologize? I guess this is why I sometimes oppose these ways and deliberately ignore requests. This whole trial-thing freaks me out (see "The Trial" from "The Wall"). I didn't even know this thing was going on until now. Revan ltrl ( talk) 23:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Good thing then I didn't ignore it. I'd like A Knight Who Says Ni advised as well. How do I get underway? Revan ltrl ( talk) 16:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I've asked and then warned Victor several times to stop editing my comments at Talk:Charles_Whitman. It doesn't seem to be doing any good - in the more recent instances ( [109], [110], [111], [112], [113]), he's getting more aggressive and outright deleting them. In his defense, he disclaimed knowledge of the second recent instance: "Can you explain Aimaeiji, how your edit here [ [114]] got posted by my account? Jwy posted the link to my talk page, I know nothing about it, or how my account posted your content.-- Victor9876 ( talk) 21:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)" were his actual words.
When I took a look at his talk page, it appears others have had the same problem. If someone could politely advise him that this is a Very Bad Idea, I would appreciate it. It seems highly unlikely that anything I say at this point will matter, if this is any indication. arimareiji ( talk) 17:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) All moot point, consider yourself warned. Re-review of these diffs and edits yielded this, which is vandalisation of another user's talk page. You don't remove talk comments from another user's talk or user page, and insert your own. Added to the 3RR, civility and other content removal shenanigans, I'm this close (place index finger and thumb approximately 1 cm apart) to recommending a block, if the shenanigans continue. Edit Centric ( talk) 04:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
From the talk page, do you notice who used chutzpuh? Who's baiting? I did not copy and paste from anyone, that one still baffles me, Jwy admitted it was probably a cross edit conflict on WP's part. 3RR I admit, blanking to remove uncivil exchanges I admit. The warning not to antagonize me was from the exchange below! Moot point or not! Warning acknowledged.-- Victor9876 ( talk) 05:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
If you want to file a Request for Comment to bring in more fresh eyes, by policy you're always welcome to do so and I would wholeheartedly endorse it. As the old saying goes, "Many hands make light work." If I misunderstood and you're upset at the idea of more fresh eyes on the article, I'm afraid it's neither desirable nor possible to make any article an exclusive club. arimareiji (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't addressing you, you're apparently afraid a lot. Let Jwy answer on his own.Victor9876 (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Answer what? "Insult insult mock stop quoting policy la la la insult mock insult stop quoting rules insult chutzpah chutzpah demand demand, does this answer your concerns?" doesn't seem like much of a question. arimareiji (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
What I see is someone who helped another person with an employment issue get it straightened out. That in turn sparked his interest in the Whitman case. What I see here is that he has then used what he learned from his interest in the Whitman case to add a lot of content to this particular page. And yes, I think that avoiding the pages where he had a modicum of involvement with the subject is trying to avoid COI. I also see that this childish back and forth continues to deteriorate and again, I'd recommend everyone take a step back, a deep breath and slow down. I thought that responding to WP:3O involved working on the content that was under dispute. All I'm currently seeing is a pissing contest. Are you actually here to help with a third opinion on content or to chastise an editor? Can you actually point to anything that was added to the article itself that has skewed the facts of the article in some way to benefit this editor or paint something in an inappropriate light? I was under the impression that the content dispute was about something else entirely. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
WP:3O is about providing a third opinion between two editors who are resolved to disagree, not mediation and not to work on the article. I saw an editor who has a history of fighting with multiple editors, so I should have explicitly noted I was not speaking in the capacity of a "third opinion" - you can't be a third opinion when you're the fifth or sixth to see the same thing. Your familiarity with the page may have made it less obvious - sometimes it takes an outsider, or a new editor, to notice a pattern that builds over time. If you review the recent history, I believe you'll see the same pattern of advocacy rather than neutral editing. arimareiji (talk) 23:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I believe this is an issue that deteriorated and wasn't completely one-sided. I don't believe you can find on User talk:Victor9876 a pattern of arguing over things, since most of the edits were from me, and I can state plainly that it was not incivil, no matter how someone might interpret it. No, I don't agree with refactoring talk pages, and I told Victor this. Having said that, I also have to say that it was my impression that arimareiji began his involvement on a note that seemed contentious to me, and yes, I did speak up and counsel that everyone take a step back, a deep breath and start over. But I don't see that it was completely one sided. At some point, Jwy said he would be away and would continue upon his return. Everything being discussed here happened in the interim, so it was never clear to me that arimareiji was speaking as an effort to actually assist in the debate that had been going on. It was certainly never addressed in any way that I could see, so I have to wonder how helpful it was when the first comments were not what I would consider helpful. I would suggest at this point that Victor stop messing with the previous posts and accept the admonition to stop doing so, arimareiji either address the concerns that were being debated and the issues at hand be considered re: the article or let it go, and the personal back and forth stop on the article talk page, because that is disrupting the editing process. Just my opinion. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 15:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Answer what? "Insult insult mock stop quoting policy la la la insult mock insult stop quoting rules insult chutzpah chutzpah demand demand, does this answer your concerns?" doesn't seem like much of a question. arimareiji (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The exchange above follows a question directed by Jwy to me. You jumped in and suggested several things that I could do. I replied as above that you were not the one involved and you retorted with...Answer what? "Insult...mock...chutzpah., etc., does that answer your concerns?". Since the last part, "does that answer your concerns?" was a direct quote from me in the ex-change, and you replied in an uncivil way, refactoring my comment to Jwy, I felt that you personally attacked me and denigrated me on the Talk page. I don't know how many rules were broken there, but personal attack, refactoring and incivility are the ones that I think are there. Tell me if I'm wrong?-- Victor9876 ( talk) 21:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)