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User:B9 hummingbird hovering has been warned numerous times over the past several months by multiple editors about WP:OR, WP:V, and personal attacks, but continues to have frequent conflict, often inserting the same contested material on multiple articles. I am requesting some independent opinion on this matter.
Here is a current example of conflict-oriented editing on Mantra involving a content dispute over a book by Bucknell & Stuart-Fox (1986):
Regarding the book involved in that conflict, B9 hummingbird hovering is inserting Bucknell et al. on mulitple articles, many with the same pattern of insertion of the book with no quotation or other citation that would justify placement in References (according to WP:LAYOUT). E.g.:
If you review the edit history for this user various other articles where similar conflict has taken place can be found. Any opinions on how to handle this situation? Buddhipriya 02:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted the following message to WP:AN:
There is persistent vandalism of Robert Mugabe. Since he is a living person, I presume the special care as pointed out in WP:BLP applies. In the last case of vandalism, User:Brian.gratwicke inserted the term "illegitimate" in the description of him as the president of Zimbabwe. I removed it, and, because he has been warned for his edits before, and has been on wikipedia for quite a while, I issued him with a "uw-vandalism4im" warning given the nature of the vandalism to a living person's article. He objected to this on my talk page, and I replied stating that if he wanted to claim that the election was rigged, he should be able to come up with the appropriate references. His reply was to accuse me of being a troll. I take this to be an extremely serious accusation as to my credibility without any supporting evidence, and certainly was not my motivation and never has been as one can see by my previous work on wikipedia. I would like to request some immediate action taken to deal with this problem. He is "demanding" that i withdraw the accusation of vandalism and has now repeated the accusation that I am a troll. He is attempting to escalate the matter, by alluding to an idea that I may be a ZANUPF stooge, which is clearly insulting and derogatory and without foundation,but I am refraining from replying.
The response from WP:AN so far has been disappointing in one crucial respect. First of all, I accept that I may have been inaccurate in describing the addition I removed as vandalism, though I still consider a case may be made for that (see my reply to the response to my original message). However, I am disappointed that the one administrator who has replied has not commented on the real issue that motivated me posting to WP:AN in the first place: that of the unfounded accusations that I am a troll and the allusion that I am a stooge of ZanuPF for merely reverting POV-pushing that was unverified and inappropriate (and could lead to further difficulties) on a wikipedia article about a living person. I find it difficult to retract and apologise for the mis-identification of vandalism if the accusation against me of being a troll and the allusion that I am a supporter of ZanuPF remains uncommented on and not dealt with. The original mis-identification should not, I think, be seen as some kind of free licence to respond in the way that Brian.gratwicke did. I would like some advice on what to do here. Finally, I am surprised at the apparent bias shown by the adminsitrator who replied to me with the following sentence: "Mugabe's last election was heavily criticized as unfair and he is seen as a dictator by a number of people around the world; the use of the word "illegitimate" is therefore valid" as it oversimplified the situation. My personal thoughts about Mugabe is that he is not someone I would like to see in charge of any country given his behaviour, but I do not feel that would justify such language or such simplistic conclusions in an encyclopaedia, which wikipedia aspires to remain. DDStretch (talk) 22:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Accuses me of "spinning" and then calls my argument "crap" after I politely asked him to explain what appeared to me to be a non sequitur and suggested "spin" was an uncivil way to characterize my good-faith concern about a WP:BLP1E violation. THF 05:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The same initial response has been posted to both users' talk pages. Responses should be made here! Thanks. -- Darkwind ( talk) 00:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The Fashion Icon ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Edit warring, bitching, accusations of trolling and personal attacks where no incident has taken place, constant deletion of critical comments from his/her usertalk page. User was notified here, rather brusquely since s/he has deleted all my comments on his/her talkpage for the last few days. Update: yup, it's been deleted!-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Certainly. They are as follows (look at the edit and the summary): [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], this one particularly, [28], [29], [30], [31], [32] in response to [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38]. I can produce about 7 more if desired.-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the deletions of critical comments are indicative of her disregard for the consequences of her actions on Wikipedia. Look through her contributions history - it's all very contraversial. And yet she's not stopped or discussed it civilly. It's poor Wikiquette, which is the purpose of this page?-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
On my talk page I asked User:Isotope23 why they would remove a valid link to a non spam non commercial site involving the person in the article Don Murphy. As you can see I politely asked for evidence and was threatened and told basically that they would do what ever they want. This is not appropriate. Muckrakerius 18:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has been ongoing between various editors (primarily User:Filll, User:Orangemarlin and User:ConfuciusOrnis), and myself, ostensibly about this article and its ongoing FA candidacy. This has repeatedly descended into incivility, personal attacks, and general aggression and hostility, in the course of which I've been accused variously of "mud slinging", displaying an "obnoxious attitude", being "unwilling to help" "unreasonable" "insulting" and "difficult", "flinging crap", "wasting our time", suggesting that the article is "crap" or "trash", and generally being treated to an uncalled for level of aggression, hostility, bullying, harassment, profanity, and general incivility. Some representative examples (not a complete list, and not in any order of severity) include: this , this, this, (especially) this, this, this, this , this, this, these, this, this, this, and this, and can be found in context on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, Talk:Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, and on the talk pages (or in associated page histories) of myself, User talk:Filll, User talk:Orangemarlin, and User talk:Firsfron. I don't understand how this has developed in this way or what exactly I've done to bring it upon myself, as I think all my edits have been constructive and any criticisms I may have raised where clearly directed against the article itself, not as ad homs. Their behaviour seems to me to be a violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, etc. Badgerpatrol 01:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed... Badgerpatrol has already brought this up at ANI. This WQA alert should be considered closed, and any further discussion should go over the existing and active discussion at ANI. The link takes you to the right section. Over and out. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 02:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I feel User:FrozenPurpleCube is running roughshod over policy and engaging in ad hominem and baseless attacks against me instead of responding to my arguments about the subject under discussion. Groupthink 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I replaced the Ilinden Uprising blurb (less than 300 words), which was largely irrelevant to the topic, with a true encycopledic article (2000+ words), with well quoted sources, while paying attention to be neutral and objective, avoiding disputed issues, like the ethnicity of the participants.
Little did I know that the previous blurb was one of the long string of Bulgarian progapanda on the wikipedia, propagated by a well-connected group of people, who have been warring against me (alone) for days now, and completely deleting my article and replacing it with their own nationalistic blurb.
Now, I don't want any sort of recognition for myself, I only want wikipedia users to have the better article, but I cannot talk sense to these people, since they refuse to talk about anything, but unilaterally delete my content.
What can I do? Most of dispute resolutions on wikipedia involve voluntary involvement of all parties, which in this case is inapplicable.
Capricornis 20:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Looking at a pretty nasty exchange currently happening between User:Dohanlon and User:Reginmund. Originally started as a question of guideline enforcement - which was also discussed at WP:FILMS, and consensus at the moment seems to be against Dohanlon. Dohanlon, however, refuses to accede to consensus, which is the first issue. This has already led to a temp block on his account and the article being full protected for 2 weeks. Reginmund has been discussing with him (and so did I for a time), but he refuses to cede ground. While I decided to walk away and let consensus speak for itself, Reginmund continued to discuss and now things have escalated to the point that both users are just shouting and violating NPA. Girolamo Savonarola 04:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is still an issue, please provide recent diffs of comments that you believe are wikiquette violations. Thanks. -- Darkwind ( talk) 22:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
User:PalestineRemembered has been using my talk page to accuse me of being a sock-puppet. Well, I'm not, lol. Isn't this a violation of WP:NPA? How can I get him or her to stop vandalizing my talk page? Dlabtot 18:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I've left a message on User:PalestineRemembered's talk page directing him or her to WP:SPP -- if the accusation is going to me made, that is where it should be done. Dlabtot 18:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
For some time I am having a discussion with this user. During that time he felt the need to refer to me as "troll", "POV-pusher," [39] and more such compliments.
Nevertheless, I had the impression we were finding compromise. Then out of the blue he starts making ad hominems regarding my person and apparently has decided to invoke all kind of abusive editors to evade discussing his unsupported edits. For some reason he insist on mentioning those disruptive contributors in a totally unrelated RFC [40] to support his view that the UN charter can be ignored by the Bush administration. The relevancy of these other and different discussions he fails to explain. [41] Also, he conspicuously states those discussions were on the same subject, eventhough it was him who first voiced the opinion the US is not bound by the UN charter and I never had that discussion with anyone else. Then of course his need to start a RFC on my person without even contacting me to see if that is needed, while invoking abusive WP:SPA GATXER seems unusual. [42]
Aside from this behaviour I find the deletion of extensively sourced material troubling. [43]
At this point I would appreciate it if he was told to abide by the above mentioned policies. Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 11:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
England's Rose has been making comments accusing Wikipedians who differ from him on political issues of being "bigots" and "barbarians". More seriously, he has made racist comments on his talk page, but I hope this can be resolved without taking it to the Admin's noticeboard. Lurker ( said · done) 09:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Diffs, please. WQA volunteers typically don't have the time to scour history listings to find substantiating evidence. -- Darkwind ( talk) 19:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Shinealight2007 accused another editor, User:Justanother, of being a "Scientology operative" who is under "orders from the COFS" (Church of Scientology) for no apparent other reason that that editor reverted Shinealight2007's excessive (imho) edits - see here and here.
When asked not to repeat those attacks, he responded by doing so again at User talk:Shinealight2007 (and then went on to say that I must be a "Scientology operative" as well because of my own comment!)
WP:ATTACK warns against "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views -- regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme", and I don't see that this editor's wildly insulting accusations have any basis anyway. wikipediatrix 20:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
+=== Scientology operatives should not be allowed on Wikipedia ===
Scientologist, sure. But Scientology operatives like
User:COFS, AKA
User:Shutterbug, and the others, should NOT be allowed to edit on Wikipedia. That is why I brought up the original question. That the users refuse to answer it or explain their actions here, is testament to this. They are most likely reporting and just following out orders from on high, just like
user:COFS. How long will this be permitted to go on on Wikipedia? Was all the press coverage not enough????????
Shinealight2007
20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC).
+==== Scientology operatives outed on Wikipedia and still they are allowed to besmirch this site ====
+==== After all the press coverage, does anyone care??????? ====
+==== Why have the Scientology operatives not been blocked already? ====
This person is one of the regular editors on Barbara Schwarz. The other day he made a couple of comments on the talk page which seem to show hostility towards the person who is the subject of the article and to other editors. The tone of them, to me, seems almost to that of threats: One to report a person to INS and the other to reveal "secret" information to discredit the person. [48] [49] - Steve Dufour 02:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
To clarify I'm not second guessing his motives, he's been honest about them. I do agree that in most cases discussing motivation is unhelpful, but in a WP:COI situation it has to be. (Just not here, on WP:COIN or the talk pages)
I don't mean to seem like I'm trying to get the last word in Duae Quartunciae, I just don't want to look like I agree it should NEVER be talked about though, because there are some times when it does come up as a valid concern, as it has it an arbcom case. I am kind of concerned observers there could try to cite it as an example of hypocrisy.
(P.S. Steve Dufour, I'm not editing Wikipedia as a Scientology critic. It just turns out that Scientologists can make it difficult to post information which contradicts theirs, so more edits are required as they tend to revert or rationalize to match their POV. You're involved too so I assumed you read the statistics I provided which show I have more edits than average on certain articles related to the CoS because the CoS spends almost all of their time here editing CoS articles.) Anynobody 23:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
It's cool Steve Dufour, the pro-CoS editors tend to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as the type of person it sounds like you thought I was so I understand how a misunderstanding can happen. Anynobody 02:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(PS Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you have a POV one way or the other. I've noticed that if people see an accusation made enough it might look true, which is what I meant.) Anynobody 05:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Spyke1077 has repeatedly made personal attacks on the Big Brother 8 Talk Page. Wanzhen 17:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
versus previous... http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Big_Brother_8_%28US%29&oldid=154546569 Wanzhen 00:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The endless edit war between Irish Nationalists and others appears to be recommencing over at Lough Neagh. Since my attempts to try and make them behave always seem to result in one of the protagonists getting a sympathetic editor to simply ban *me* /rollseyes/ I thought I'd just raise the matter here. Cheers-- feline1 16:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
User Canadian Paul has in my opinion overreacted to what I considered to be an accurate and fair note placed on a discussion board. It seems this user will only be satisfied if he 'stomps' the opposition into the ground, with speech such as this below:
[edit] Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the above comments clearly out of line and from my point of view, the truth is the mirror opposite. Every accusation he has thrown at me has been a mirror of his own behavior. This seems to be some alpha-male competition for him. For me, it's about making sure that Wikipedia keeps articles that should be kept. I have more to say but I wonder if this is the appropriate place to discuss this. It seems to be an inflated-ego issue, and the material on Wikipedia is only tangential to the personality conflict. However, when others threaten punitive actions in order to get their way things have gone too far already. Ryoung122 17:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Since nominating an article that Mr. Young started ( Gladys Swetland) for deletion, I have been the subject of personal attacks from this user.
The debate came to a head when he accused me of nominating the article for deletion in bad faith and accusing of me of "having an agenda" This can be found in the discussion here.
Angry, I defended myself on the page and then posted a possibly inflammatory message here, although I never attacked him personally. He then proceeded to make accusations and attack me personally. He accused me of the following:
No evidence for the first two claims has yet been produced and I do not believe that my contributions ( User:Canadian Paul list many of them) are at all indicative of a pattern of "causing chaos" or "not respecting the work of others." The "attack" on John Campbell Ross refers to my removing him from Living national longevity recordholders because his status as Australia's oldest man had no citation. The discussion can be reviewed here.
Personal attacks include:
Next, I provided links to WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:NPA and warned him that if he continued, I would bring his violations to the next level. He responded by calling these "threats" and then turned around and warned me that he would "press charges" against me if I continued "harassing" him. He accused me of "attempted intimidation/harassment to get your way." I'm not sure what my way is exactly, since I've already conceded that I do not want to edit longevity articles anymore. He further accused me of making comments that are "hateful and vile." He further accused me of claiming a moral high ground, again, I am uncertain how this could be. I admit that may not have handled this in the best possible manner, but I have not been harassing or launching personal attacks. When I told him to leave me alone, he could have just stopped there. Now that he's threatened to press charges, he claims that he wants "a truce." He claims I have violated the harassment and attack policies. If I have, I would like to know about it so that I can improve my behavior, because I do not notice it. I have ended discussion with Mr. Young, but I feel that a legal threat should be brought to appropriate attention. Also please note the personal attacks in his above complaint. Cheers, CP 17:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I JUST FOUND MORE EVIDENCE:
Swetland is a test to see how and if WP:PSEUDO applies to these articles. I suppose it was a bit unfair of me to do this without warning, so here is the list of articles I will be nominating in a bundle if Swetland is deleted: John Ingram McMorran Shitsu Nakano Elena Slough Emma Verona Johnston Camille Loiseau Grace Clawson Ura Koyama Susie Gibson Margaret Skeete Lucy Hannah Annie Jennings Hide Ohira All of these people are or were a) Dead, meaning that they won't get any more notable as time passes b) Not state or national longevity recordholders c) Never the world's oldest person, man or woman. Many were admittedly the oldest person in a nation at the time of their death but I do not feel that is sufficient per WP:PSEUDO. If I am mistaken and any of these articles fall into one of those three criteria let me know and I won't nominate it. Also, if any of these articles can be shown to be expandable into full length articles, I won't nominate them either. I want to contribute to supercentenarian, longevity and veteran articles and lists, but I just don't see the need for all these permastubs, and now I have a possible policy option to back me. Cheers, CP 00:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, if you think it shouldn't be there, why don't you nominate it? You know you'll have me on board at least, along with a few others. Cheers, CP 17:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
However, this was posted to another user's page and I was NOT AWARE of this 'plan' to basically raze the 'supercentenarian biography' category. When you consider that most of the articles he was planning on nominating for deletionwere at or near the top-importance level in this field, it comes across as an all-out attack.
Let's review: John Ingram McMorran (oldest man in America, 113) Shitsu Nakano (Japan's oldest person, 113) Elena Slough (oldest living American, 114) Emma Verona Johnston (oldest living American, 114) Camille Loiseau (France's oldest person, 114) Grace Clawson (oldest living American, 114) Ura Koyama (Japan's oldest person, 114) Susie Gibson (at 115 or 116, one of the oldest people of all time) Margaret Skeete (at 115, one of the top 15 oldest people of all time) Lucy Hannah (at 117, one of the top 5 oldest people of all time) Annie Jennings (at 115, one of the top 25 oldest people of all time) Hide Ohira (at 114 years 236 days, older than the current world's oldest person)
Clearly, Canadian Paul is on a vendetta, and he left a trail of evidence that showed his conspiracy plans. I find it highly reprehensible to hatch a plan to 'take control'...a clear violation of WP:OWN. Note these articles were all started by a myriad of people (none by me, except Gladys Swetland). So, it seems the plan was to attack Swetland first, then go for even higher, then delete the remaining stubs. Seems like a 'Supercentenarian Holocaust'. Perhaps the worst idea is that these should be deleted because the people are 'dead'. Hello? Dying does not make one unencylopedic. Wikipedia is not just for current events. Current events need to be placed in context. The above attacks are the equivalent of attempting to delete people like Lou Gehrig from the Hall of Fame. After all, he's dead and didn't hit as many homers as Babe Ruth, right? Ryoung122 18:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discourse WAS posted on Mr. Young's talk page and was a specific attempt from me to get feedback about those articles and alert him that if he had a good reason for me to not nominate those people. I don't see how I am "taking control" of these articles by proposing to nominate them for deletion and achieve a consensus on Wikipedia. My "vendetta" is against articles that can or will never be expanded beyond stubs. I noted that they were dead because it means that they won't advance any higher in the ranks or become the world's oldest, as is mentioned in the very text Mr. Young quotes. Please also note the combative language being used to describe my activities (vendetta, conspiracy, Supercentenarian Holocaust). Cheers, CP 18:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, CP is 'baiting' (saying things to get other persons 'riled up'). Also, it should be noted that Wikipedia has been in existence for only a few years (at least as a major, comprehensive source) but has grown quite rapidly. Some of these articles SHOULD exist but were only started recently. To reconstruct them requires going back and finding the original newspaper citations (an easy feat, yes, but often those that start the article-stubs don't know where to find them). These articles are NOT 'perma-stubs'. There is material available and they can be expanded. Deleting them prematurely is irresponsible. Planning a massive deletion-nomination process on a massive scale (I've heard about 88 articles) is sheer lunacy. Attempting to delete some of the 'all-time recordholders' is simply absurd. I note that many of these people gained MAJOR media coverage. Moreover, other articles have already survived 'articles for deletion' (such as Edna Parker so CP seems to be not respecting already-established consensus, in favor of a conspiracy plan to re-set the bar. Let's face it, if someone proposed to nominate baseball articles on Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, and Tom Seaver, I don't think anyone would be taking that proposal seriously. If someone proposed to delete articles on the Empire State Building or even simply Citicorp Center, no one would taken that seriously, either. Ryoung122 19:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Young, this whole Wikiquette alert is about your personal attacks and you've turned it into an accusation about my plan to delete 88 articles (an accusation the requires evidence). Edna Parker was a wholly different case than these other articles, as she was still living at the time her deletion debate was discussed. You've now also accused me of baiting (no evidence for that, I'm allowed to defend myself here). The question here is not whether I am out to do delete these articles (which I am not, again evidenced in your talk page, I said I am leaving longevity articles alone, not to mention that these accusations are based on either twisted or no evidence at all). The question here is about YOUR personal attacks, which you have continued to perform in this very section, your accusations and most importantly, your legal threat, which is a very serious offense. Cheers, CP 19:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
User Canadian Paul has in my opinion overreacted to what I considered to be an accurate and fair note placed on a discussion board. It seems this user will only be satisfied if he 'stomps' the opposition into the ground, with speech such as this below:
[edit] Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the above comments clearly out of line and from my point of view, the truth is the mirror opposite. Every accusation he has thrown at me has been a mirror of his own behavior. This seems to be some alpha-male competition for him. For me, it's about making sure that Wikipedia keeps articles that should be kept. I have more to say but I wonder if this is the appropriate place to discuss this. It seems to be an inflated-ego issue, and the material on Wikipedia is only tangential to the personality conflict. However, when others threaten punitive actions in order to get their way things have gone too far already. Ryoung122 17:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
More background information:
This dispute BEGAN here with unethical planning that included ideas of false allegations, such as WP:PSEUDO. Note the article existed BEFORE the list (by more than a year), so the accusation of simply making a 'stub' out of a list case was false.
1. User His Space Research suggests deleting the Gladys Swetland article as a test case, and includes some questionable ethical logic:
[edit] Too many supercentenarian permastubs Yeah. Well, some of these pseudobiographies could do with a merge to "List of supercentenarians from country X", or similar, although people may object to that idea and consider it listcruft. I suggest you try nominating the article for deletion to see what people think.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
You should nominate Gladys Swetland as a trial, since it's not current, I think. We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability of supercentenarians. Also, I may have said this before but I recognise you from deathlist.net.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The above comments seem to be in violation of WP:OWN. Let's look again: "We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability fo supercentenarians." Uh, since when did these two appoint themselves to this position?
2. The article was nominated for deletion here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gladys_Swetland
3. User Canadian Paul turns the discussion personal:
Notice Though it hasn't affected the discussion that I can tell, I would like to point out a possible use of Stealth canvassing to a possibly partisan audience (you need to register to be a member of the forum, which likely means you have an interest in gerontology at the least) here. Cheers, CP 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
4. I note that the nomination may have been in bad faith (including the idea that nominating an article that's 'not current' might be easier to delete, as fewer voters would notice).
Notice User Canadian Paul's nomination of this article may be in bad faith, in violation of WP:POINT 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Canadian_Paul
[edit] Too many supercentenarian permastubs Yeah. Well, some of these pseudobiographies could do with a merge to "List of supercentenarians from country X", or similar, although people may object to that idea and consider it listcruft. I suggest you try nominating the article for deletion to see what people think.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
You should nominate Gladys Swetland as a trial, since it's not current, I think. We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability of supercentenarians. Also, I may have said this before but I recognise you from deathlist.net.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that 'not current' means 'easier to delete without others noticing'.
Ryoung122 08:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
5. User Canadian Paul responds extremely negatively and fails to take responsibility for any of his actions:
Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I have 'crossed the line'? In other words, User CP is trying to put himself above me and be a dictator, and is fuming that I found evidence of a plan to do so.
6. I respond.
[edit] As You Make Your Bed, So You Must Lie in It (I posted the above message before I saw this):
+ ==Bad Faith Accusation==
+ I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC) I found the 'bad faith' accusation quite on the mark. Yes, you have contributed a lot. However, you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others. You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star". Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Unless you founded FACEBOOK or something, don't be treating other people as if 'GOD' has just walked into the room. The claim that I would call into question your actions merely to get a 'leg up' in an AFD debate is a typical example. No, I believe down to the core that your actions were ill-considered and inappropriate. Whether the idea was yours or planted by another, to attack an article simply to 'move the chains forward' for an agenda (to make it easier to take out lesser articles, something you already stated you proposed to do) is completely unacceptable. The chance of living to age 113.66 is estimated to be about 1 in 100 million or so. In the same way that we have lists (and articles) for the 200 tallest buildings in the world, is it too much to ask to actually 'document' a case? Instead of everyone having to 'take our word for it' that a case is notable...providing the details allows others to investigate and double-check. I note that the Encyclopedia Britannica as recently as the 1980's wrote that 'no human has ever lived more than 113 years 124 days'. For those not trusting the Izumi case, the first person to verifably reach Ms. Swetland's age was Fannie Thomas and that was in late 1980. True, the 'conveyor belt' has moved higher and there may come a point in the future when '113 years 240 days' is no longer a big deal, but since Ms. Swetland's death the records have actually gone lower...she would now be '4th oldest' if alive today, not '9th oldest'.
Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I note the USA currently has 6 of the top 10 oldest verified living people. Should we then ONLY create articles for the oldest American, ignoring the other five, while creating articles for much-younger persons such as Florrie Baldwin?
Now, back to the remainder of your note:
I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles,
Good riddance! I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors
Wikipedia does that every day, day in, day out, to everyone. Including you. Get used to it. You have crossed the line.
Once again, a police-like mentality. No, I did not cross the line, you did. You began the attack for the wrong reason, not me. I'm not going to defend every article...I dropped Yasu Nihiyama and Tsuneyo Toyonaga (the first time). But there comes a point when throwing out an article is akin to kicking a worthy player out of the Hall of Fame. You could easily have gone after some mere 110-year-old permastub with little or no significance. Instead you decided to play chess and go after someone in the top 10%. That's right. Of 1054 persons aged 110+, Gladys ranked in the top 9%. That's an "A". Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland. No, I was NOT closely monitoring every article I ever created (over 60). Yes, I did find it highly unethical to suggest nominating an article that would be 'easier to delete' since no one might notice (given it wasn't in the news lately). The FACT of the matter is, the majority of people that vote for deletion don't have any idea what the subject is about in the first place. The main purpose of the longevity articles is, in fact, not to tell the public that 'Gladys plays the piano'. It is to inform the public just what the maximum human lifespan is, and give a few examples on the frontier of survival. When you only cite the 'oldest person' and that's it, children develop a concept of a large gap between the 'oldest celebrities' (like George Burns, 100) and the 'world's oldest woman' (age 114). Creating a list of the '100 oldest people of all time' helps to show that, in fact, there is no 'gap.' Like a kid collecting baseball player cards and learning about stats, so these 'perma'-stubs, especially when expanded, can serve as collective examples of:
A. How long people really live (in fact, the tight-knit bundling of the ages shows that the real age maximums are quite close together, making it easier for children to recognize that claims to age '125' are bogus) B. Various strategies of success on how to live a long, long life (hint: it's not the same for everyone) C. People of all 'races' all live about the same length of time as everyone else D. Kids will learn a little about history, as well.
True, in the same way that children have their favorite 'sports' team, nationalism plays a role here, too. So we need 'examples' from many different nations. But we shouldn't short-sheet the 'large' nations, either. In the same way that children need to know that '9 out of 10 supercentenarians are female' so showing that the USA is first in supercentenarians just might raise a lot of good questions that lead to answers such as "part of the reason the USA has so many supercentenarians is that there hasn't been a war here since 1865"...which reflects on issues of larger society as well.
Yes, I have all these ideas in mind. This is bigger than just Gladys or you or me. It is about educating the world.
All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers,
Saying 'cheers' after verbally stabbing someone somehow just doesn't band-aid over the previous vitriol. By the way, 'have a nice day.'Ryoung122 16:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I agree I upped the ante a bit...but it was on CP's user page and I didn't feel it was relevant to the discussion. Since CP turned it personal and finished off with things such as "I will ignore you from now on," it seemed reasonable for me to let him know, 'one last time,' what I really thought.
But of course the claim to 'ignore me' was false. Soon we have round #7:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you. I was prepared to defend myself against your bad faith accusation and leave it at that, but you have continued to attack me. I would like you to present me with evidence of the following claims:
you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star" Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland - Pointing out that Ross has no source for being Australia's oldest, even by your own admission, is not an "attack" I am highly considering bringing these accusations to the attention of the administration, as well as the following personal attacks:
Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I nominated Swetland in good faith with very well spelled out intentions and reasoning, reasoning that others have agreed with me (hence the other delete votes) and despite you saying that they don't know enough about the topic, they have every right to vote for or against deletion. Yet you continue to attack me over my nomination even though I was prepared to walk away. I am now considering bringing this to administrative attention.
P.S. Cheers is an automatic part of my signature. Cheers, CP 17:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Once again, it seems that User CP is NOT focused on the issues but on making himself the Wikipedia policeman. So, I simply mirror his vitriol back to him in round #8:
8. Canadian Paul, I THOUGHT you said that 'All further communications from you will be ignored." I guess you changed your mind. In any case, in regards to these accusations:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you.
This sounds like a threat. That is, a threatening message against me and attempted intimidation/harassment to get your way. I do not for one second believe that you are in the right here and I will defend myself vigorously and will press charges in return if you choose to continue YOUR campaign of harassment. I note that YOUR Aug 24 2007 comment was extremely hateful and vile and was a disproportionate reaction to what was a considered and fair posting on the Gladys Swetland articles for deletion 'discussion' page. As Bart Versieck...who felt like you 'stabbed in the back'...said...WHY? That I happened to find out 'why' and posted your own words is my right and is relevant to the discussion result.
In regards to the WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK claim...these are unfounded. First off, until this week we often worked together. The above comment made on Aug 24 was the first indication that you wanted to cease communication...yet you continued anyway. Communication is a two-way street. You cannot 'cease' communication if you continue to do so as well. Also, the comments I made to/about you were on your message board, not in the main discussion, so I don't see how they can be seen as 'harassment' or an 'attack.' What WAS posted in the main discussion was relevant to the discussion. And I note that once again, your comments to me seem to be a 'game' of 'one-upmanship.' Considering you started it, I find it highly indefensible for you to claim some moral higher ground.
So, where do we go from here:
A. Cold War...we can agree to a truce and that's it.
B. Take it the next level. My comments were a reaction to your unbelievably vitriolic comments made first. If you choose to pursue a scorched-Earth policy, then I truly believe you are the problem. I will request mediation and third-party intervention.
The choice is yours.Ryoung122 17:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Notice I offered a 'truce' but this was quickly rejected in round #9:
9. I have decided to post the dispute here, my case will be up shortly. Pointing out that you are violating three important Wikipolicies is not a threat. Claiming that you will "press charges" against me, however, is. Cheers, CP 17:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so I acknowledge that user CP has effectively 'declared war'.
10. Whether I am violating those policies or not is not for you to decide. In fact, it seems that you violated those policies and I will be making that assertion. I also note that your comments came first.Ryoung122 17:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Now, I'm not about 'hiding things under the rug'. Telling the third parties exactly what happened is the best way to arrive at the facts. The bottom line is if someone throws proverbial stones, I feel the right to respond in kind. Perhaps I should remember "Wikipedia: No angry mastodons" but give me credit, at least I realize it; User CP is not happy unless he is 'alpha-male'. The bottom line: CP started this and it quickly escalated. In fairness I think a good idea is to 'take a breather'. However, posting the entire chain of events first is important to establish what led to what.
Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings,
In regards to this posting:
Notice Though it hasn't affected the discussion that I can tell, I would like to point out a possible use of Stealth canvassing to a possibly partisan audience (you need to register to be a member of the forum, which likely means you have an interest in gerontology at the least) here. Cheers, CP 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I find this highly dishonest. Number one, needing to 'register' is something you do on virtually all major forums...including Wikipedia. Given that registration is FREE (and apparently Canadian Paul is a member or how did he know about it?) and registrants are able to maintain anonymity (with 700+ members and membership anonymity (unless they choose to self-identify), am I going to go through every anonymous ID to delete those that aren't favorable? Not possible). Second, Canadian Paul said himself that persons should be 'informed' of what he plans to do...or did that mean only those who agreed with his pro-deletionist actions? Ryoung122 18:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Stealth canvassing is generally against Wikipedia policy, and certainly in this case its use was questionable. People should be informed ON wikipedia because it's public and everyone can see it. Furthermore, yes, all forums require registration to post. But most can at least be viewed be those who aren't registered. Unless you're a member of Yahoo! Groups, you cannot read the postings. The extra effort it takes to access these posts was used as proof of possible partisanship. Cheers, CP 18:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I re-quote another comment to provide point-by-point rebuttal:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you.
I was prepared to defend myself against your bad faith accusation and leave it at that,
I only responded to what you already said. That's not 'continuing to attack you.' Making yourself the 'victim' here looks hollow. Ryoung122 19:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others
You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star" Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland - Pointing out that Ross has no source for being Australia's oldest, even by your own admission, is not an "attack"
I am highly considering bringing these accusations to the attention of the administration, as well as the following personal attacks:
Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I nominated Swetland in good faith with very well spelled out intentions and reasoning,
P.S. Cheers is an automatic part of my signature. Cheers, CP 17:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I final note: "Cheers" is an automatic part of his signature. In other words, he doesn't really mean it in all situations. Perhaps I should learn a lesson, however: sugarcoating goes further than truth-telling. So, 'have a nice day.'
Ryoung122
19:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Without being specific (the details are in the NavFrame), User:Ryoung122 has engaged in personal attacks, harassment and has an outstanding legal threat against me on my talk page. In order to drown out my complaints, he has further harassed me by inventing a conspiracy where I am supposedly committing "Supercentenarian Holocaust" by preparing to nominate "88 articles" for deletion. He has exaggerated and misrepresented facts and even made up some facts (for example, he quotes an exchange that is clearly on his talk page, claiming that I was hiding my intentions by not informing him) He has posted this conspiracy on his personal webpage and invited others to have their say by directing them to this page. He also claims that I caused "chaos" and "failed to respect the works of others" while refusing to cite any examples. The dispute erupted after I nominated Gladys Swetland for deletion and he accused me of a bad faith nomination after I pointed out his stealth canvassing. To this I was angered and responded uncivilly on his talk page, although I did not make any personal attacks. My most pressing concern in the outstanding legal threat, but the harassment I am getting regarding this "conspiracy" (which is simply untrue; I even wrote on his talk page that I have no desire to work on longevity articles anymore to which he replied "Good riddance!") is an issue too. I have made many important contributions to supercentenarian articles, including full references for List of living supercentenarians and Living national longevity recordholders. Other than a few comments on some user talk pages, where I discussed setting a standard for which supercentenarian articles should stay and which should go, there is no conspiracy here - especially since my explicit statement has always been that if the Gladys Swetland case did not get deleted in AfD (and it does not look like it will), I wouldn't bother nominating anything else. Cheers, CP 23:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Resolution Comment Have a day off of this has really cooled down. After a day, I see that the accusations on his web page do not seem to be effecting much (I'll admit I was as worried about the Gladys Swetland debate as I was my reputation as a Wiki editor), so that is not a particular concern to me anymore. I do, however, maintain that the personal attacks were begun by UserRyoung122 (I discovered this comment that is dated two days before his bad faith accusation, therefore before I had reacted uncivilly to him. What I have accomplished by my age has been a source of pride throughout much of my life and it is regrettable that he cannot judge me past my physical age) Nevertheless, I hereby and without condition fully apologize from my incivility after Ryoung122's bad faith accusation in the debate (there should be no excuse to react as I did) and although I maintain that I never personally attacked Ryoung122, I apologize if I somehow created that perception.
Having said that, I am still concerned about this "conspiracy" that seems to have formed up around me. Let me state for the record that there is none nor do I have any explicit plans to nominate any more articles for deletion (longevity-related or otherwise). Having said that, it needs to be acknowledged that I retain the right, as a Wikipedia editor, to point out WP:NOR violations or request direct citations for any material on Wikipedia (including longevity articles) without it being used against me as evidence of my "conspiracy." There are many violations that I would have preferred to work on myself (as I did on Living national longevity recordholders for example), but now it seems I will not be able to do that - that doesn't mean I am going to turn my back on things that are unreferenced or original research. I'm glad you have suggested cleaning up my talk page as well, because I do not want this to effect the way that other editors perceive me and my contributions and was going to ask you if I could just delete most of the vitrol and accusations. Cheers, CP 01:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
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User:B9 hummingbird hovering has been warned numerous times over the past several months by multiple editors about WP:OR, WP:V, and personal attacks, but continues to have frequent conflict, often inserting the same contested material on multiple articles. I am requesting some independent opinion on this matter.
Here is a current example of conflict-oriented editing on Mantra involving a content dispute over a book by Bucknell & Stuart-Fox (1986):
Regarding the book involved in that conflict, B9 hummingbird hovering is inserting Bucknell et al. on mulitple articles, many with the same pattern of insertion of the book with no quotation or other citation that would justify placement in References (according to WP:LAYOUT). E.g.:
If you review the edit history for this user various other articles where similar conflict has taken place can be found. Any opinions on how to handle this situation? Buddhipriya 02:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I posted the following message to WP:AN:
There is persistent vandalism of Robert Mugabe. Since he is a living person, I presume the special care as pointed out in WP:BLP applies. In the last case of vandalism, User:Brian.gratwicke inserted the term "illegitimate" in the description of him as the president of Zimbabwe. I removed it, and, because he has been warned for his edits before, and has been on wikipedia for quite a while, I issued him with a "uw-vandalism4im" warning given the nature of the vandalism to a living person's article. He objected to this on my talk page, and I replied stating that if he wanted to claim that the election was rigged, he should be able to come up with the appropriate references. His reply was to accuse me of being a troll. I take this to be an extremely serious accusation as to my credibility without any supporting evidence, and certainly was not my motivation and never has been as one can see by my previous work on wikipedia. I would like to request some immediate action taken to deal with this problem. He is "demanding" that i withdraw the accusation of vandalism and has now repeated the accusation that I am a troll. He is attempting to escalate the matter, by alluding to an idea that I may be a ZANUPF stooge, which is clearly insulting and derogatory and without foundation,but I am refraining from replying.
The response from WP:AN so far has been disappointing in one crucial respect. First of all, I accept that I may have been inaccurate in describing the addition I removed as vandalism, though I still consider a case may be made for that (see my reply to the response to my original message). However, I am disappointed that the one administrator who has replied has not commented on the real issue that motivated me posting to WP:AN in the first place: that of the unfounded accusations that I am a troll and the allusion that I am a stooge of ZanuPF for merely reverting POV-pushing that was unverified and inappropriate (and could lead to further difficulties) on a wikipedia article about a living person. I find it difficult to retract and apologise for the mis-identification of vandalism if the accusation against me of being a troll and the allusion that I am a supporter of ZanuPF remains uncommented on and not dealt with. The original mis-identification should not, I think, be seen as some kind of free licence to respond in the way that Brian.gratwicke did. I would like some advice on what to do here. Finally, I am surprised at the apparent bias shown by the adminsitrator who replied to me with the following sentence: "Mugabe's last election was heavily criticized as unfair and he is seen as a dictator by a number of people around the world; the use of the word "illegitimate" is therefore valid" as it oversimplified the situation. My personal thoughts about Mugabe is that he is not someone I would like to see in charge of any country given his behaviour, but I do not feel that would justify such language or such simplistic conclusions in an encyclopaedia, which wikipedia aspires to remain. DDStretch (talk) 22:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Accuses me of "spinning" and then calls my argument "crap" after I politely asked him to explain what appeared to me to be a non sequitur and suggested "spin" was an uncivil way to characterize my good-faith concern about a WP:BLP1E violation. THF 05:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The same initial response has been posted to both users' talk pages. Responses should be made here! Thanks. -- Darkwind ( talk) 00:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The Fashion Icon ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Edit warring, bitching, accusations of trolling and personal attacks where no incident has taken place, constant deletion of critical comments from his/her usertalk page. User was notified here, rather brusquely since s/he has deleted all my comments on his/her talkpage for the last few days. Update: yup, it's been deleted!-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Certainly. They are as follows (look at the edit and the summary): [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], this one particularly, [28], [29], [30], [31], [32] in response to [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38]. I can produce about 7 more if desired.-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the deletions of critical comments are indicative of her disregard for the consequences of her actions on Wikipedia. Look through her contributions history - it's all very contraversial. And yet she's not stopped or discussed it civilly. It's poor Wikiquette, which is the purpose of this page?-- Rambutan ( talk) 14:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
On my talk page I asked User:Isotope23 why they would remove a valid link to a non spam non commercial site involving the person in the article Don Murphy. As you can see I politely asked for evidence and was threatened and told basically that they would do what ever they want. This is not appropriate. Muckrakerius 18:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
A discussion has been ongoing between various editors (primarily User:Filll, User:Orangemarlin and User:ConfuciusOrnis), and myself, ostensibly about this article and its ongoing FA candidacy. This has repeatedly descended into incivility, personal attacks, and general aggression and hostility, in the course of which I've been accused variously of "mud slinging", displaying an "obnoxious attitude", being "unwilling to help" "unreasonable" "insulting" and "difficult", "flinging crap", "wasting our time", suggesting that the article is "crap" or "trash", and generally being treated to an uncalled for level of aggression, hostility, bullying, harassment, profanity, and general incivility. Some representative examples (not a complete list, and not in any order of severity) include: this , this, this, (especially) this, this, this, this , this, this, these, this, this, this, and this, and can be found in context on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, Talk:Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, and on the talk pages (or in associated page histories) of myself, User talk:Filll, User talk:Orangemarlin, and User talk:Firsfron. I don't understand how this has developed in this way or what exactly I've done to bring it upon myself, as I think all my edits have been constructive and any criticisms I may have raised where clearly directed against the article itself, not as ad homs. Their behaviour seems to me to be a violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF, etc. Badgerpatrol 01:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed... Badgerpatrol has already brought this up at ANI. This WQA alert should be considered closed, and any further discussion should go over the existing and active discussion at ANI. The link takes you to the right section. Over and out. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 02:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I feel User:FrozenPurpleCube is running roughshod over policy and engaging in ad hominem and baseless attacks against me instead of responding to my arguments about the subject under discussion. Groupthink 04:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I replaced the Ilinden Uprising blurb (less than 300 words), which was largely irrelevant to the topic, with a true encycopledic article (2000+ words), with well quoted sources, while paying attention to be neutral and objective, avoiding disputed issues, like the ethnicity of the participants.
Little did I know that the previous blurb was one of the long string of Bulgarian progapanda on the wikipedia, propagated by a well-connected group of people, who have been warring against me (alone) for days now, and completely deleting my article and replacing it with their own nationalistic blurb.
Now, I don't want any sort of recognition for myself, I only want wikipedia users to have the better article, but I cannot talk sense to these people, since they refuse to talk about anything, but unilaterally delete my content.
What can I do? Most of dispute resolutions on wikipedia involve voluntary involvement of all parties, which in this case is inapplicable.
Capricornis 20:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Looking at a pretty nasty exchange currently happening between User:Dohanlon and User:Reginmund. Originally started as a question of guideline enforcement - which was also discussed at WP:FILMS, and consensus at the moment seems to be against Dohanlon. Dohanlon, however, refuses to accede to consensus, which is the first issue. This has already led to a temp block on his account and the article being full protected for 2 weeks. Reginmund has been discussing with him (and so did I for a time), but he refuses to cede ground. While I decided to walk away and let consensus speak for itself, Reginmund continued to discuss and now things have escalated to the point that both users are just shouting and violating NPA. Girolamo Savonarola 04:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If this is still an issue, please provide recent diffs of comments that you believe are wikiquette violations. Thanks. -- Darkwind ( talk) 22:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
User:PalestineRemembered has been using my talk page to accuse me of being a sock-puppet. Well, I'm not, lol. Isn't this a violation of WP:NPA? How can I get him or her to stop vandalizing my talk page? Dlabtot 18:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I've left a message on User:PalestineRemembered's talk page directing him or her to WP:SPP -- if the accusation is going to me made, that is where it should be done. Dlabtot 18:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
For some time I am having a discussion with this user. During that time he felt the need to refer to me as "troll", "POV-pusher," [39] and more such compliments.
Nevertheless, I had the impression we were finding compromise. Then out of the blue he starts making ad hominems regarding my person and apparently has decided to invoke all kind of abusive editors to evade discussing his unsupported edits. For some reason he insist on mentioning those disruptive contributors in a totally unrelated RFC [40] to support his view that the UN charter can be ignored by the Bush administration. The relevancy of these other and different discussions he fails to explain. [41] Also, he conspicuously states those discussions were on the same subject, eventhough it was him who first voiced the opinion the US is not bound by the UN charter and I never had that discussion with anyone else. Then of course his need to start a RFC on my person without even contacting me to see if that is needed, while invoking abusive WP:SPA GATXER seems unusual. [42]
Aside from this behaviour I find the deletion of extensively sourced material troubling. [43]
At this point I would appreciate it if he was told to abide by the above mentioned policies. Respectfully Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 11:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
England's Rose has been making comments accusing Wikipedians who differ from him on political issues of being "bigots" and "barbarians". More seriously, he has made racist comments on his talk page, but I hope this can be resolved without taking it to the Admin's noticeboard. Lurker ( said · done) 09:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Diffs, please. WQA volunteers typically don't have the time to scour history listings to find substantiating evidence. -- Darkwind ( talk) 19:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Shinealight2007 accused another editor, User:Justanother, of being a "Scientology operative" who is under "orders from the COFS" (Church of Scientology) for no apparent other reason that that editor reverted Shinealight2007's excessive (imho) edits - see here and here.
When asked not to repeat those attacks, he responded by doing so again at User talk:Shinealight2007 (and then went on to say that I must be a "Scientology operative" as well because of my own comment!)
WP:ATTACK warns against "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views -- regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme", and I don't see that this editor's wildly insulting accusations have any basis anyway. wikipediatrix 20:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
+=== Scientology operatives should not be allowed on Wikipedia ===
Scientologist, sure. But Scientology operatives like
User:COFS, AKA
User:Shutterbug, and the others, should NOT be allowed to edit on Wikipedia. That is why I brought up the original question. That the users refuse to answer it or explain their actions here, is testament to this. They are most likely reporting and just following out orders from on high, just like
user:COFS. How long will this be permitted to go on on Wikipedia? Was all the press coverage not enough????????
Shinealight2007
20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC).
+==== Scientology operatives outed on Wikipedia and still they are allowed to besmirch this site ====
+==== After all the press coverage, does anyone care??????? ====
+==== Why have the Scientology operatives not been blocked already? ====
This person is one of the regular editors on Barbara Schwarz. The other day he made a couple of comments on the talk page which seem to show hostility towards the person who is the subject of the article and to other editors. The tone of them, to me, seems almost to that of threats: One to report a person to INS and the other to reveal "secret" information to discredit the person. [48] [49] - Steve Dufour 02:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
To clarify I'm not second guessing his motives, he's been honest about them. I do agree that in most cases discussing motivation is unhelpful, but in a WP:COI situation it has to be. (Just not here, on WP:COIN or the talk pages)
I don't mean to seem like I'm trying to get the last word in Duae Quartunciae, I just don't want to look like I agree it should NEVER be talked about though, because there are some times when it does come up as a valid concern, as it has it an arbcom case. I am kind of concerned observers there could try to cite it as an example of hypocrisy.
(P.S. Steve Dufour, I'm not editing Wikipedia as a Scientology critic. It just turns out that Scientologists can make it difficult to post information which contradicts theirs, so more edits are required as they tend to revert or rationalize to match their POV. You're involved too so I assumed you read the statistics I provided which show I have more edits than average on certain articles related to the CoS because the CoS spends almost all of their time here editing CoS articles.) Anynobody 23:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
It's cool Steve Dufour, the pro-CoS editors tend to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as the type of person it sounds like you thought I was so I understand how a misunderstanding can happen. Anynobody 02:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(PS Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you have a POV one way or the other. I've noticed that if people see an accusation made enough it might look true, which is what I meant.) Anynobody 05:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Spyke1077 has repeatedly made personal attacks on the Big Brother 8 Talk Page. Wanzhen 17:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
versus previous... http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Big_Brother_8_%28US%29&oldid=154546569 Wanzhen 00:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The endless edit war between Irish Nationalists and others appears to be recommencing over at Lough Neagh. Since my attempts to try and make them behave always seem to result in one of the protagonists getting a sympathetic editor to simply ban *me* /rollseyes/ I thought I'd just raise the matter here. Cheers-- feline1 16:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
User Canadian Paul has in my opinion overreacted to what I considered to be an accurate and fair note placed on a discussion board. It seems this user will only be satisfied if he 'stomps' the opposition into the ground, with speech such as this below:
[edit] Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the above comments clearly out of line and from my point of view, the truth is the mirror opposite. Every accusation he has thrown at me has been a mirror of his own behavior. This seems to be some alpha-male competition for him. For me, it's about making sure that Wikipedia keeps articles that should be kept. I have more to say but I wonder if this is the appropriate place to discuss this. It seems to be an inflated-ego issue, and the material on Wikipedia is only tangential to the personality conflict. However, when others threaten punitive actions in order to get their way things have gone too far already. Ryoung122 17:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Since nominating an article that Mr. Young started ( Gladys Swetland) for deletion, I have been the subject of personal attacks from this user.
The debate came to a head when he accused me of nominating the article for deletion in bad faith and accusing of me of "having an agenda" This can be found in the discussion here.
Angry, I defended myself on the page and then posted a possibly inflammatory message here, although I never attacked him personally. He then proceeded to make accusations and attack me personally. He accused me of the following:
No evidence for the first two claims has yet been produced and I do not believe that my contributions ( User:Canadian Paul list many of them) are at all indicative of a pattern of "causing chaos" or "not respecting the work of others." The "attack" on John Campbell Ross refers to my removing him from Living national longevity recordholders because his status as Australia's oldest man had no citation. The discussion can be reviewed here.
Personal attacks include:
Next, I provided links to WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:NPA and warned him that if he continued, I would bring his violations to the next level. He responded by calling these "threats" and then turned around and warned me that he would "press charges" against me if I continued "harassing" him. He accused me of "attempted intimidation/harassment to get your way." I'm not sure what my way is exactly, since I've already conceded that I do not want to edit longevity articles anymore. He further accused me of making comments that are "hateful and vile." He further accused me of claiming a moral high ground, again, I am uncertain how this could be. I admit that may not have handled this in the best possible manner, but I have not been harassing or launching personal attacks. When I told him to leave me alone, he could have just stopped there. Now that he's threatened to press charges, he claims that he wants "a truce." He claims I have violated the harassment and attack policies. If I have, I would like to know about it so that I can improve my behavior, because I do not notice it. I have ended discussion with Mr. Young, but I feel that a legal threat should be brought to appropriate attention. Also please note the personal attacks in his above complaint. Cheers, CP 17:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I JUST FOUND MORE EVIDENCE:
Swetland is a test to see how and if WP:PSEUDO applies to these articles. I suppose it was a bit unfair of me to do this without warning, so here is the list of articles I will be nominating in a bundle if Swetland is deleted: John Ingram McMorran Shitsu Nakano Elena Slough Emma Verona Johnston Camille Loiseau Grace Clawson Ura Koyama Susie Gibson Margaret Skeete Lucy Hannah Annie Jennings Hide Ohira All of these people are or were a) Dead, meaning that they won't get any more notable as time passes b) Not state or national longevity recordholders c) Never the world's oldest person, man or woman. Many were admittedly the oldest person in a nation at the time of their death but I do not feel that is sufficient per WP:PSEUDO. If I am mistaken and any of these articles fall into one of those three criteria let me know and I won't nominate it. Also, if any of these articles can be shown to be expandable into full length articles, I won't nominate them either. I want to contribute to supercentenarian, longevity and veteran articles and lists, but I just don't see the need for all these permastubs, and now I have a possible policy option to back me. Cheers, CP 00:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, if you think it shouldn't be there, why don't you nominate it? You know you'll have me on board at least, along with a few others. Cheers, CP 17:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
However, this was posted to another user's page and I was NOT AWARE of this 'plan' to basically raze the 'supercentenarian biography' category. When you consider that most of the articles he was planning on nominating for deletionwere at or near the top-importance level in this field, it comes across as an all-out attack.
Let's review: John Ingram McMorran (oldest man in America, 113) Shitsu Nakano (Japan's oldest person, 113) Elena Slough (oldest living American, 114) Emma Verona Johnston (oldest living American, 114) Camille Loiseau (France's oldest person, 114) Grace Clawson (oldest living American, 114) Ura Koyama (Japan's oldest person, 114) Susie Gibson (at 115 or 116, one of the oldest people of all time) Margaret Skeete (at 115, one of the top 15 oldest people of all time) Lucy Hannah (at 117, one of the top 5 oldest people of all time) Annie Jennings (at 115, one of the top 25 oldest people of all time) Hide Ohira (at 114 years 236 days, older than the current world's oldest person)
Clearly, Canadian Paul is on a vendetta, and he left a trail of evidence that showed his conspiracy plans. I find it highly reprehensible to hatch a plan to 'take control'...a clear violation of WP:OWN. Note these articles were all started by a myriad of people (none by me, except Gladys Swetland). So, it seems the plan was to attack Swetland first, then go for even higher, then delete the remaining stubs. Seems like a 'Supercentenarian Holocaust'. Perhaps the worst idea is that these should be deleted because the people are 'dead'. Hello? Dying does not make one unencylopedic. Wikipedia is not just for current events. Current events need to be placed in context. The above attacks are the equivalent of attempting to delete people like Lou Gehrig from the Hall of Fame. After all, he's dead and didn't hit as many homers as Babe Ruth, right? Ryoung122 18:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discourse WAS posted on Mr. Young's talk page and was a specific attempt from me to get feedback about those articles and alert him that if he had a good reason for me to not nominate those people. I don't see how I am "taking control" of these articles by proposing to nominate them for deletion and achieve a consensus on Wikipedia. My "vendetta" is against articles that can or will never be expanded beyond stubs. I noted that they were dead because it means that they won't advance any higher in the ranks or become the world's oldest, as is mentioned in the very text Mr. Young quotes. Please also note the combative language being used to describe my activities (vendetta, conspiracy, Supercentenarian Holocaust). Cheers, CP 18:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, CP is 'baiting' (saying things to get other persons 'riled up'). Also, it should be noted that Wikipedia has been in existence for only a few years (at least as a major, comprehensive source) but has grown quite rapidly. Some of these articles SHOULD exist but were only started recently. To reconstruct them requires going back and finding the original newspaper citations (an easy feat, yes, but often those that start the article-stubs don't know where to find them). These articles are NOT 'perma-stubs'. There is material available and they can be expanded. Deleting them prematurely is irresponsible. Planning a massive deletion-nomination process on a massive scale (I've heard about 88 articles) is sheer lunacy. Attempting to delete some of the 'all-time recordholders' is simply absurd. I note that many of these people gained MAJOR media coverage. Moreover, other articles have already survived 'articles for deletion' (such as Edna Parker so CP seems to be not respecting already-established consensus, in favor of a conspiracy plan to re-set the bar. Let's face it, if someone proposed to nominate baseball articles on Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, and Tom Seaver, I don't think anyone would be taking that proposal seriously. If someone proposed to delete articles on the Empire State Building or even simply Citicorp Center, no one would taken that seriously, either. Ryoung122 19:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Young, this whole Wikiquette alert is about your personal attacks and you've turned it into an accusation about my plan to delete 88 articles (an accusation the requires evidence). Edna Parker was a wholly different case than these other articles, as she was still living at the time her deletion debate was discussed. You've now also accused me of baiting (no evidence for that, I'm allowed to defend myself here). The question here is not whether I am out to do delete these articles (which I am not, again evidenced in your talk page, I said I am leaving longevity articles alone, not to mention that these accusations are based on either twisted or no evidence at all). The question here is about YOUR personal attacks, which you have continued to perform in this very section, your accusations and most importantly, your legal threat, which is a very serious offense. Cheers, CP 19:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
User Canadian Paul has in my opinion overreacted to what I considered to be an accurate and fair note placed on a discussion board. It seems this user will only be satisfied if he 'stomps' the opposition into the ground, with speech such as this below:
[edit] Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the above comments clearly out of line and from my point of view, the truth is the mirror opposite. Every accusation he has thrown at me has been a mirror of his own behavior. This seems to be some alpha-male competition for him. For me, it's about making sure that Wikipedia keeps articles that should be kept. I have more to say but I wonder if this is the appropriate place to discuss this. It seems to be an inflated-ego issue, and the material on Wikipedia is only tangential to the personality conflict. However, when others threaten punitive actions in order to get their way things have gone too far already. Ryoung122 17:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
More background information:
This dispute BEGAN here with unethical planning that included ideas of false allegations, such as WP:PSEUDO. Note the article existed BEFORE the list (by more than a year), so the accusation of simply making a 'stub' out of a list case was false.
1. User His Space Research suggests deleting the Gladys Swetland article as a test case, and includes some questionable ethical logic:
[edit] Too many supercentenarian permastubs Yeah. Well, some of these pseudobiographies could do with a merge to "List of supercentenarians from country X", or similar, although people may object to that idea and consider it listcruft. I suggest you try nominating the article for deletion to see what people think.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
You should nominate Gladys Swetland as a trial, since it's not current, I think. We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability of supercentenarians. Also, I may have said this before but I recognise you from deathlist.net.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The above comments seem to be in violation of WP:OWN. Let's look again: "We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability fo supercentenarians." Uh, since when did these two appoint themselves to this position?
2. The article was nominated for deletion here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gladys_Swetland
3. User Canadian Paul turns the discussion personal:
Notice Though it hasn't affected the discussion that I can tell, I would like to point out a possible use of Stealth canvassing to a possibly partisan audience (you need to register to be a member of the forum, which likely means you have an interest in gerontology at the least) here. Cheers, CP 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
4. I note that the nomination may have been in bad faith (including the idea that nominating an article that's 'not current' might be easier to delete, as fewer voters would notice).
Notice User Canadian Paul's nomination of this article may be in bad faith, in violation of WP:POINT 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Canadian_Paul
[edit] Too many supercentenarian permastubs Yeah. Well, some of these pseudobiographies could do with a merge to "List of supercentenarians from country X", or similar, although people may object to that idea and consider it listcruft. I suggest you try nominating the article for deletion to see what people think.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
You should nominate Gladys Swetland as a trial, since it's not current, I think. We'll have to develop a more precise set of rules for determining the notability of supercentenarians. Also, I may have said this before but I recognise you from deathlist.net.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that 'not current' means 'easier to delete without others noticing'.
Ryoung122 08:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
5. User Canadian Paul responds extremely negatively and fails to take responsibility for any of his actions:
Bad Faith Accusation I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I have 'crossed the line'? In other words, User CP is trying to put himself above me and be a dictator, and is fuming that I found evidence of a plan to do so.
6. I respond.
[edit] As You Make Your Bed, So You Must Lie in It (I posted the above message before I saw this):
+ ==Bad Faith Accusation==
+ I found your bad faith accusation to be insulting and completely unacceptable given the amount of work that I have contributed to important longevity articles. I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles, I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors who merely want a leg up in a deletion debate. You have crossed the line. All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers, CP 15:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC) I found the 'bad faith' accusation quite on the mark. Yes, you have contributed a lot. However, you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others. You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star". Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Unless you founded FACEBOOK or something, don't be treating other people as if 'GOD' has just walked into the room. The claim that I would call into question your actions merely to get a 'leg up' in an AFD debate is a typical example. No, I believe down to the core that your actions were ill-considered and inappropriate. Whether the idea was yours or planted by another, to attack an article simply to 'move the chains forward' for an agenda (to make it easier to take out lesser articles, something you already stated you proposed to do) is completely unacceptable. The chance of living to age 113.66 is estimated to be about 1 in 100 million or so. In the same way that we have lists (and articles) for the 200 tallest buildings in the world, is it too much to ask to actually 'document' a case? Instead of everyone having to 'take our word for it' that a case is notable...providing the details allows others to investigate and double-check. I note that the Encyclopedia Britannica as recently as the 1980's wrote that 'no human has ever lived more than 113 years 124 days'. For those not trusting the Izumi case, the first person to verifably reach Ms. Swetland's age was Fannie Thomas and that was in late 1980. True, the 'conveyor belt' has moved higher and there may come a point in the future when '113 years 240 days' is no longer a big deal, but since Ms. Swetland's death the records have actually gone lower...she would now be '4th oldest' if alive today, not '9th oldest'.
Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I note the USA currently has 6 of the top 10 oldest verified living people. Should we then ONLY create articles for the oldest American, ignoring the other five, while creating articles for much-younger persons such as Florrie Baldwin?
Now, back to the remainder of your note:
I will no longer be contributing to longevity articles,
Good riddance! I will spend my Wikipedia time working on articles and tasks where my efforts are not cheapened or called into question by editors
Wikipedia does that every day, day in, day out, to everyone. Including you. Get used to it. You have crossed the line.
Once again, a police-like mentality. No, I did not cross the line, you did. You began the attack for the wrong reason, not me. I'm not going to defend every article...I dropped Yasu Nihiyama and Tsuneyo Toyonaga (the first time). But there comes a point when throwing out an article is akin to kicking a worthy player out of the Hall of Fame. You could easily have gone after some mere 110-year-old permastub with little or no significance. Instead you decided to play chess and go after someone in the top 10%. That's right. Of 1054 persons aged 110+, Gladys ranked in the top 9%. That's an "A". Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland. No, I was NOT closely monitoring every article I ever created (over 60). Yes, I did find it highly unethical to suggest nominating an article that would be 'easier to delete' since no one might notice (given it wasn't in the news lately). The FACT of the matter is, the majority of people that vote for deletion don't have any idea what the subject is about in the first place. The main purpose of the longevity articles is, in fact, not to tell the public that 'Gladys plays the piano'. It is to inform the public just what the maximum human lifespan is, and give a few examples on the frontier of survival. When you only cite the 'oldest person' and that's it, children develop a concept of a large gap between the 'oldest celebrities' (like George Burns, 100) and the 'world's oldest woman' (age 114). Creating a list of the '100 oldest people of all time' helps to show that, in fact, there is no 'gap.' Like a kid collecting baseball player cards and learning about stats, so these 'perma'-stubs, especially when expanded, can serve as collective examples of:
A. How long people really live (in fact, the tight-knit bundling of the ages shows that the real age maximums are quite close together, making it easier for children to recognize that claims to age '125' are bogus) B. Various strategies of success on how to live a long, long life (hint: it's not the same for everyone) C. People of all 'races' all live about the same length of time as everyone else D. Kids will learn a little about history, as well.
True, in the same way that children have their favorite 'sports' team, nationalism plays a role here, too. So we need 'examples' from many different nations. But we shouldn't short-sheet the 'large' nations, either. In the same way that children need to know that '9 out of 10 supercentenarians are female' so showing that the USA is first in supercentenarians just might raise a lot of good questions that lead to answers such as "part of the reason the USA has so many supercentenarians is that there hasn't been a war here since 1865"...which reflects on issues of larger society as well.
Yes, I have all these ideas in mind. This is bigger than just Gladys or you or me. It is about educating the world.
All further communications from you will be ignored. Cheers,
Saying 'cheers' after verbally stabbing someone somehow just doesn't band-aid over the previous vitriol. By the way, 'have a nice day.'Ryoung122 16:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I agree I upped the ante a bit...but it was on CP's user page and I didn't feel it was relevant to the discussion. Since CP turned it personal and finished off with things such as "I will ignore you from now on," it seemed reasonable for me to let him know, 'one last time,' what I really thought.
But of course the claim to 'ignore me' was false. Soon we have round #7:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you. I was prepared to defend myself against your bad faith accusation and leave it at that, but you have continued to attack me. I would like you to present me with evidence of the following claims:
you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star" Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland - Pointing out that Ross has no source for being Australia's oldest, even by your own admission, is not an "attack" I am highly considering bringing these accusations to the attention of the administration, as well as the following personal attacks:
Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I nominated Swetland in good faith with very well spelled out intentions and reasoning, reasoning that others have agreed with me (hence the other delete votes) and despite you saying that they don't know enough about the topic, they have every right to vote for or against deletion. Yet you continue to attack me over my nomination even though I was prepared to walk away. I am now considering bringing this to administrative attention.
P.S. Cheers is an automatic part of my signature. Cheers, CP 17:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Once again, it seems that User CP is NOT focused on the issues but on making himself the Wikipedia policeman. So, I simply mirror his vitriol back to him in round #8:
8. Canadian Paul, I THOUGHT you said that 'All further communications from you will be ignored." I guess you changed your mind. In any case, in regards to these accusations:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you.
This sounds like a threat. That is, a threatening message against me and attempted intimidation/harassment to get your way. I do not for one second believe that you are in the right here and I will defend myself vigorously and will press charges in return if you choose to continue YOUR campaign of harassment. I note that YOUR Aug 24 2007 comment was extremely hateful and vile and was a disproportionate reaction to what was a considered and fair posting on the Gladys Swetland articles for deletion 'discussion' page. As Bart Versieck...who felt like you 'stabbed in the back'...said...WHY? That I happened to find out 'why' and posted your own words is my right and is relevant to the discussion result.
In regards to the WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK claim...these are unfounded. First off, until this week we often worked together. The above comment made on Aug 24 was the first indication that you wanted to cease communication...yet you continued anyway. Communication is a two-way street. You cannot 'cease' communication if you continue to do so as well. Also, the comments I made to/about you were on your message board, not in the main discussion, so I don't see how they can be seen as 'harassment' or an 'attack.' What WAS posted in the main discussion was relevant to the discussion. And I note that once again, your comments to me seem to be a 'game' of 'one-upmanship.' Considering you started it, I find it highly indefensible for you to claim some moral higher ground.
So, where do we go from here:
A. Cold War...we can agree to a truce and that's it.
B. Take it the next level. My comments were a reaction to your unbelievably vitriolic comments made first. If you choose to pursue a scorched-Earth policy, then I truly believe you are the problem. I will request mediation and third-party intervention.
The choice is yours.Ryoung122 17:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Notice I offered a 'truce' but this was quickly rejected in round #9:
9. I have decided to post the dispute here, my case will be up shortly. Pointing out that you are violating three important Wikipolicies is not a threat. Claiming that you will "press charges" against me, however, is. Cheers, CP 17:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so I acknowledge that user CP has effectively 'declared war'.
10. Whether I am violating those policies or not is not for you to decide. In fact, it seems that you violated those policies and I will be making that assertion. I also note that your comments came first.Ryoung122 17:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Now, I'm not about 'hiding things under the rug'. Telling the third parties exactly what happened is the best way to arrive at the facts. The bottom line is if someone throws proverbial stones, I feel the right to respond in kind. Perhaps I should remember "Wikipedia: No angry mastodons" but give me credit, at least I realize it; User CP is not happy unless he is 'alpha-male'. The bottom line: CP started this and it quickly escalated. In fairness I think a good idea is to 'take a breather'. However, posting the entire chain of events first is important to establish what led to what.
Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 18:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Greetings,
In regards to this posting:
Notice Though it hasn't affected the discussion that I can tell, I would like to point out a possible use of Stealth canvassing to a possibly partisan audience (you need to register to be a member of the forum, which likely means you have an interest in gerontology at the least) here. Cheers, CP 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I find this highly dishonest. Number one, needing to 'register' is something you do on virtually all major forums...including Wikipedia. Given that registration is FREE (and apparently Canadian Paul is a member or how did he know about it?) and registrants are able to maintain anonymity (with 700+ members and membership anonymity (unless they choose to self-identify), am I going to go through every anonymous ID to delete those that aren't favorable? Not possible). Second, Canadian Paul said himself that persons should be 'informed' of what he plans to do...or did that mean only those who agreed with his pro-deletionist actions? Ryoung122 18:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Stealth canvassing is generally against Wikipedia policy, and certainly in this case its use was questionable. People should be informed ON wikipedia because it's public and everyone can see it. Furthermore, yes, all forums require registration to post. But most can at least be viewed be those who aren't registered. Unless you're a member of Yahoo! Groups, you cannot read the postings. The extra effort it takes to access these posts was used as proof of possible partisanship. Cheers, CP 18:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I re-quote another comment to provide point-by-point rebuttal:
WP:OWN, WP:HARASS and WP:ATTACK are three pieces of policy that may soon become of immediate interest to you.
I was prepared to defend myself against your bad faith accusation and leave it at that,
I only responded to what you already said. That's not 'continuing to attack you.' Making yourself the 'victim' here looks hollow. Ryoung122 19:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
you have also caused chaos and not respected the work of others
You have made your own 'bad faith' accusations as if you were some "Wiki-Star" Further, you began a personal attack on me first, in addition to the attacks on John Campbell Ross and Gladys Swetland - Pointing out that Ross has no source for being Australia's oldest, even by your own admission, is not an "attack"
I am highly considering bringing these accusations to the attention of the administration, as well as the following personal attacks:
Get off your high horse. You're 21 years old. Moreover, such an attack seems to be anti-US bias. I nominated Swetland in good faith with very well spelled out intentions and reasoning,
P.S. Cheers is an automatic part of my signature. Cheers, CP 17:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I final note: "Cheers" is an automatic part of his signature. In other words, he doesn't really mean it in all situations. Perhaps I should learn a lesson, however: sugarcoating goes further than truth-telling. So, 'have a nice day.'
Ryoung122
19:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Without being specific (the details are in the NavFrame), User:Ryoung122 has engaged in personal attacks, harassment and has an outstanding legal threat against me on my talk page. In order to drown out my complaints, he has further harassed me by inventing a conspiracy where I am supposedly committing "Supercentenarian Holocaust" by preparing to nominate "88 articles" for deletion. He has exaggerated and misrepresented facts and even made up some facts (for example, he quotes an exchange that is clearly on his talk page, claiming that I was hiding my intentions by not informing him) He has posted this conspiracy on his personal webpage and invited others to have their say by directing them to this page. He also claims that I caused "chaos" and "failed to respect the works of others" while refusing to cite any examples. The dispute erupted after I nominated Gladys Swetland for deletion and he accused me of a bad faith nomination after I pointed out his stealth canvassing. To this I was angered and responded uncivilly on his talk page, although I did not make any personal attacks. My most pressing concern in the outstanding legal threat, but the harassment I am getting regarding this "conspiracy" (which is simply untrue; I even wrote on his talk page that I have no desire to work on longevity articles anymore to which he replied "Good riddance!") is an issue too. I have made many important contributions to supercentenarian articles, including full references for List of living supercentenarians and Living national longevity recordholders. Other than a few comments on some user talk pages, where I discussed setting a standard for which supercentenarian articles should stay and which should go, there is no conspiracy here - especially since my explicit statement has always been that if the Gladys Swetland case did not get deleted in AfD (and it does not look like it will), I wouldn't bother nominating anything else. Cheers, CP 23:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Resolution Comment Have a day off of this has really cooled down. After a day, I see that the accusations on his web page do not seem to be effecting much (I'll admit I was as worried about the Gladys Swetland debate as I was my reputation as a Wiki editor), so that is not a particular concern to me anymore. I do, however, maintain that the personal attacks were begun by UserRyoung122 (I discovered this comment that is dated two days before his bad faith accusation, therefore before I had reacted uncivilly to him. What I have accomplished by my age has been a source of pride throughout much of my life and it is regrettable that he cannot judge me past my physical age) Nevertheless, I hereby and without condition fully apologize from my incivility after Ryoung122's bad faith accusation in the debate (there should be no excuse to react as I did) and although I maintain that I never personally attacked Ryoung122, I apologize if I somehow created that perception.
Having said that, I am still concerned about this "conspiracy" that seems to have formed up around me. Let me state for the record that there is none nor do I have any explicit plans to nominate any more articles for deletion (longevity-related or otherwise). Having said that, it needs to be acknowledged that I retain the right, as a Wikipedia editor, to point out WP:NOR violations or request direct citations for any material on Wikipedia (including longevity articles) without it being used against me as evidence of my "conspiracy." There are many violations that I would have preferred to work on myself (as I did on Living national longevity recordholders for example), but now it seems I will not be able to do that - that doesn't mean I am going to turn my back on things that are unreferenced or original research. I'm glad you have suggested cleaning up my talk page as well, because I do not want this to effect the way that other editors perceive me and my contributions and was going to ask you if I could just delete most of the vitrol and accusations. Cheers, CP 01:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)