- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Zawed ( talk) via MilHistBot ( talk) 21:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Vance Drummond
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
Vance Drummond ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
This bio has been on my list for some time, the impetus to complete it being 1960s images becoming available to use, and my discovery of a detailed article on the circumstances of the subject’s death. A New Zealand-born RAAF pilot, Drummond survived close calls in Korea and Vietnam only to die mysteriously in a training exercise off the Australian coast – or perhaps not so mysteriously; the evidence from the court of inquiry may offer a cautionary tale for high achievers everywhere... Thanks in advance for your comments! Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 07:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
CommentsSupport from PM
- Great job as always, Ian.
- What sort of missions was he flying in Korea, and did he shoot down any enemy aircraft? I expected to see something about that.
- The sources I've seen don't specify his missions; the most I might be able to do is put in a general statement about the type of sorties the squadron flew in its first few months with the Meteor.
- Drummond wasn't credited with damaging or shooting down any aircraft; the squadron only claimed five or six MiGs downed and a few others damaged, and the main sources are pretty clear on who was credited with these.
- suggest linking substantive to
Military rank#Types of rank
- Will do.
That's all I have. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:59, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks PM. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
05:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think that some sort of information about sorties undertaken by the squadron in Korea during his tenure is in order, in terms of escort, air superiority, ground attack etc.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I did give a general explanation of what the FACs did in Vietnam after all... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
07:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Added a sentence. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 10:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I did give a general explanation of what the FACs did in Vietnam after all... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
07:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think that some sort of information about sorties undertaken by the squadron in Korea during his tenure is in order, in terms of escort, air superiority, ground attack etc.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Source review by PM
- all sources appear reliable and of high quality. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:59, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Vance_Drummond_1966_(AWM_VN66003702).JPG: source link is dead.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
12:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
- They fooled me with two identification numbers -- got the right one now. Tks Nikki. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 13:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Support Excellent work as usual Ian. I think that the A-class criteria are well and truly met, and have some suggestions for how the article could be further improved ahead of FAC:
- "In September 1953 he was released and repatriated to Australia." - I'd suggest noting that he was released at the end of the war (though there seems to have been a delay given the war ended in July 1953: I think that the POW exchanges took time)
- I tend to agree but neither of my sources on his repatriation choose to spell out that it was actually after the war. I'd prefer not to simply insert a bald statement of when the war ended -- let me see if I can dig something up...
- The official history of Australia in the Korean War might have something on the POWs returning (I've never actually looked into the book).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
-
This newspaper story also provides a degree of context.
Nick-D (
talk)
11:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's useful, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
-
This newspaper story also provides a degree of context.
Nick-D (
talk)
11:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- The official history of Australia in the Korean War might have something on the POWs returning (I've never actually looked into the book).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I tend to agree but neither of my sources on his repatriation choose to spell out that it was actually after the war. I'd prefer not to simply insert a bald statement of when the war ended -- let me see if I can dig something up...
- The official history of the RAAF in the Vietnam War has some extra material about Drummond in Vietnam (for instance, he was the first Australian posted as a FAC and seems to have volunteered himself for flying duties) - I can add this from my copy if helpful
- Stephens highlighted the first point and I've already mentioned it; I had noted the second thing when going through The RAAF in Vietnam but hadn't added it, tks for the prompt!
- Mark Lax's comment that Drummond was "was well on track to become the Chief of the Air Staff" might be worth including - Lax is a suitable judge of such an issue, and it certainly seems accurate.
- Yes, it's a bit of a call but probably fair. Of Drummond's closest contemporaries to achieve the CAS spot,
Dave Evans was a couple of years older when promoted to wing commander and
Jake Newham a couple of years younger. In any case it's Lax's opinion that counts, not mine... ;-) I'm just debating where to work it in, perhaps at the very top of the last section (similar to where Lax places it), or immediately following Lax's speculation on the accident cause, on in the final para as a kind of legacy thing...
- I'd suggest at the end. As a non-expert, his career trajectory certainly seems similar to the subjects of your CAS articles (hotshot pilot, good administrator, key commands, etc).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Incorporated as part of the extant Lax ref but not averse to tweaking. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd suggest at the end. As a non-expert, his career trajectory certainly seems similar to the subjects of your CAS articles (hotshot pilot, good administrator, key commands, etc).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a bit of a call but probably fair. Of Drummond's closest contemporaries to achieve the CAS spot,
Dave Evans was a couple of years older when promoted to wing commander and
Jake Newham a couple of years younger. In any case it's Lax's opinion that counts, not mine... ;-) I'm just debating where to work it in, perhaps at the very top of the last section (similar to where Lax places it), or immediately following Lax's speculation on the accident cause, on in the final para as a kind of legacy thing...
-
Nick-D (
talk)
07:03, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks for looking it over, Nick. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 08:47, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Support Comments from JennyOz
- infobox - Williamtown is via redirect unlike its links in lede and body
- Well spotted!
- "... neither Drummond nor the plane was ever found." - "was ever" sounds too 'final'? Maybe 'have ever been found', or 'have been found'. (Unless that is proper military wording of course.)
- Yes, fair enough about the finality -- I think it works okay just dropping the "ever".
- "... a month in confinement." - solitary? ie what is different to being PoW?
- Great minds, Jenny -- I assume solitary is meant but the source wasn't quite that specific.
- add category Recipients of the Gallantry Cross (Vietnam)?
- Don't know why I didn't think to check for that cat -- tks.
Thanks Ian, JennyOz ( talk) 08:50, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks as always for reviewing, Jenny. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
09:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tweaks Ian, very happy to support. Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 10:12, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article promoted by Zawed ( talk) via MilHistBot ( talk) 21:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list
Vance Drummond
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
Vance Drummond ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
| Toolbox |
|---|
This bio has been on my list for some time, the impetus to complete it being 1960s images becoming available to use, and my discovery of a detailed article on the circumstances of the subject’s death. A New Zealand-born RAAF pilot, Drummond survived close calls in Korea and Vietnam only to die mysteriously in a training exercise off the Australian coast – or perhaps not so mysteriously; the evidence from the court of inquiry may offer a cautionary tale for high achievers everywhere... Thanks in advance for your comments! Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 07:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
CommentsSupport from PM
- Great job as always, Ian.
- What sort of missions was he flying in Korea, and did he shoot down any enemy aircraft? I expected to see something about that.
- The sources I've seen don't specify his missions; the most I might be able to do is put in a general statement about the type of sorties the squadron flew in its first few months with the Meteor.
- Drummond wasn't credited with damaging or shooting down any aircraft; the squadron only claimed five or six MiGs downed and a few others damaged, and the main sources are pretty clear on who was credited with these.
- suggest linking substantive to
Military rank#Types of rank
- Will do.
That's all I have. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:59, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks PM. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
05:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think that some sort of information about sorties undertaken by the squadron in Korea during his tenure is in order, in terms of escort, air superiority, ground attack etc.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I did give a general explanation of what the FACs did in Vietnam after all... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
07:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Added a sentence. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 10:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I did give a general explanation of what the FACs did in Vietnam after all... Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
07:53, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think that some sort of information about sorties undertaken by the squadron in Korea during his tenure is in order, in terms of escort, air superiority, ground attack etc.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Source review by PM
- all sources appear reliable and of high quality. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 01:59, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Vance_Drummond_1966_(AWM_VN66003702).JPG: source link is dead.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
12:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
- They fooled me with two identification numbers -- got the right one now. Tks Nikki. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 13:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
Support Excellent work as usual Ian. I think that the A-class criteria are well and truly met, and have some suggestions for how the article could be further improved ahead of FAC:
- "In September 1953 he was released and repatriated to Australia." - I'd suggest noting that he was released at the end of the war (though there seems to have been a delay given the war ended in July 1953: I think that the POW exchanges took time)
- I tend to agree but neither of my sources on his repatriation choose to spell out that it was actually after the war. I'd prefer not to simply insert a bald statement of when the war ended -- let me see if I can dig something up...
- The official history of Australia in the Korean War might have something on the POWs returning (I've never actually looked into the book).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
-
This newspaper story also provides a degree of context.
Nick-D (
talk)
11:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- That's useful, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
-
This newspaper story also provides a degree of context.
Nick-D (
talk)
11:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- The official history of Australia in the Korean War might have something on the POWs returning (I've never actually looked into the book).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I tend to agree but neither of my sources on his repatriation choose to spell out that it was actually after the war. I'd prefer not to simply insert a bald statement of when the war ended -- let me see if I can dig something up...
- The official history of the RAAF in the Vietnam War has some extra material about Drummond in Vietnam (for instance, he was the first Australian posted as a FAC and seems to have volunteered himself for flying duties) - I can add this from my copy if helpful
- Stephens highlighted the first point and I've already mentioned it; I had noted the second thing when going through The RAAF in Vietnam but hadn't added it, tks for the prompt!
- Mark Lax's comment that Drummond was "was well on track to become the Chief of the Air Staff" might be worth including - Lax is a suitable judge of such an issue, and it certainly seems accurate.
- Yes, it's a bit of a call but probably fair. Of Drummond's closest contemporaries to achieve the CAS spot,
Dave Evans was a couple of years older when promoted to wing commander and
Jake Newham a couple of years younger. In any case it's Lax's opinion that counts, not mine... ;-) I'm just debating where to work it in, perhaps at the very top of the last section (similar to where Lax places it), or immediately following Lax's speculation on the accident cause, on in the final para as a kind of legacy thing...
- I'd suggest at the end. As a non-expert, his career trajectory certainly seems similar to the subjects of your CAS articles (hotshot pilot, good administrator, key commands, etc).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Incorporated as part of the extant Lax ref but not averse to tweaking. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 15:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd suggest at the end. As a non-expert, his career trajectory certainly seems similar to the subjects of your CAS articles (hotshot pilot, good administrator, key commands, etc).
Nick-D (
talk)
11:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a bit of a call but probably fair. Of Drummond's closest contemporaries to achieve the CAS spot,
Dave Evans was a couple of years older when promoted to wing commander and
Jake Newham a couple of years younger. In any case it's Lax's opinion that counts, not mine... ;-) I'm just debating where to work it in, perhaps at the very top of the last section (similar to where Lax places it), or immediately following Lax's speculation on the accident cause, on in the final para as a kind of legacy thing...
-
Nick-D (
talk)
07:03, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks for looking it over, Nick. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 08:47, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Support Comments from JennyOz
- infobox - Williamtown is via redirect unlike its links in lede and body
- Well spotted!
- "... neither Drummond nor the plane was ever found." - "was ever" sounds too 'final'? Maybe 'have ever been found', or 'have been found'. (Unless that is proper military wording of course.)
- Yes, fair enough about the finality -- I think it works okay just dropping the "ever".
- "... a month in confinement." - solitary? ie what is different to being PoW?
- Great minds, Jenny -- I assume solitary is meant but the source wasn't quite that specific.
- add category Recipients of the Gallantry Cross (Vietnam)?
- Don't know why I didn't think to check for that cat -- tks.
Thanks Ian, JennyOz ( talk) 08:50, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- Tks as always for reviewing, Jenny. Cheers,
Ian Rose (
talk)
09:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tweaks Ian, very happy to support. Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 10:12, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.