The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Although the 2007 incident is a significant event, it is unlikely to have attracted any media coverage if Nowak wasn't already known for being an astronaut. The current size of this section (1,800 words out of a bit more than 5,000 about her life in the body text) seems a UNDUE in that context. (
t ·
c) buidhe07:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Not only would it not have attracted media coverage, but Nowak probably wouldn't even have been charged. The saddest cases are the ones drummed out of the services for PTSD, and then denied medical treatment. I have to respect the hard work of other editors, but I have expanded the rest of the article to give it more balance.
Hawkeye7(discuss)09:31, 2 October 2020 (UTC)reply
""Getting accepted into flight training was therefore a major achievement," I'm always wary of 'therefore' sentences-- is this bit needed? does it add anything?
" at Naval Air Station Whiting Field and then trained on the Beechcraft T-34 Mentor" seems, to me, to equate a Naval Air Station to a type of plane (could be read as she went from training at the base to training on the plane) can you perhaps change this up a bit?
"In October 2001, she gave birth to twin daughters, Alyssa and Katrina" Per
WP:BLPNAME, The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced. Consider removing the names of the children. Ditto with her other son
"Among the personal effects she packed for the flight was a small owl figurine of the mascot of Luxmanor Elementary School, a
koozie from Tilden Middle School, a banner from Charles W. Woodward High School, an Annapolis Class of 1985 flag, and her grandmother's engagement ring" Strikes me as trivia-- what's the encyclopedic value?
"latex gloves, a black wig, a
BB pistol and ammunition,
pepper spray, a hooded tan trench coat, a 2-pound (0.91 kg) drilling hammer, black gloves, rubber tubing, plastic garbage bags, approximately $585 in cash, her computer, an 8-inch (200 mm)
Gerber folding knife and several other items" can any of these items be folded into 'and several items' for readiblity?
That's it from me-- really interesting, well done article on the whole. All of my comments are, as always, suggestions rather than orders, open to discussion. Cheers,
Eddie891TalkWork23:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
*"in over 30 different aircraft, and was" Commas are unnecessary before dependent clause (and there are many places in the article appropriately without such commas, so this should be fixed to be consistent as well as grammatically correct). Delete or make ", and she was"
"and occasionally a professor would inform a class that he did not think women belonged there" Add "male" before "professor" to make clear you aren't using "he" generally.
"What impressed me", she later said, Put comma before quotation mark.
MOS:LQ: For the most part, this means treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks: keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence. The comma here belongs outside, not being part of the original quote.
Hawkeye7(discuss)01:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
that each of their parts was so important". Put period before quotation mark.
and changed her last name to "Nowak" single quotes (when quotations exist in an article, it's good practice to not use double quotes for anything else.
I won't press the point, but the MOS note you reference refers to actual quotations. 'Nowak' is closer to the "simple gloss" exception.--
Neopeius (
talk)
19:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)reply
*"writing a thesis on "Computational Investigations of a NACA 0012 Airfoil in Low Reynolds Number Flows"." Use italics for article title rather than quotes (same reasoning; also, publications later in article are italicized)
"Training for a weightless environment was conducted in the waters of the Weightless Environment Training Facility, and in the" comma before dependent clause is unnecessary
"The women were considered for this activity; when NASA trimmed the space suit budget in the 1990s, small sizes were omitted." Do you mean "were not considered"?
Homecoming*"They attended X Games XII at the Home Depot Center in Los Angeles from August 3 to 6, and the Houston Astros game at Minute Maid Park on August 14. The crew got to meet" Suggest "on August 14, where the crew got to meet"
*"Nowak drove from Houston to Orlando, Florida, on February 4–5, 2007." This sentence comes out of nowhere (even if you move the paragraph regarding her marriage from the prior section to here). Suggest reversing the order (start with the date) and add "with the intention of confronting Shipman." (and possibly injuring, killing, or kidnapping her, but the only ultimate charge was burglary and battery so you don't need to give any more context. :) )
"Shipman referred to Nowak as an acquaintance of a boyfriend, but did not identify" Commas can get placed before dependent clauses if they are contrasting, and in this case, also to be consistent with similar usage downstream.
"For her work as a member of the crew of STS-121, NASA announced on May 30, 2007, that Nowak would receive the NASA Space Flight Medal at Johnson Space Center on June 5, 2007.[93]" This should go elsewhere, perhaps "After NASA" or an Awards section.
Y Moved. Some people were surprised that she was still awarded the medal. I was more surprised that she was awarded full custody of the three kids. (Those daughters are chips off the old block.)
Hawkeye7(discuss)01:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
After NASA
*"A Naval administrative panel of consisting of" delete first "of"
@
Hawkeye7: Fantastic work. Very few changes needed. I would ask that, before I work on
Shuttle-Centaur that you do a search for any commas before dependent clauses and either delete them or make them independent clauses (generally by adding a pronoun) as required. That would make my editing much easier. Thank you! :) --
Neopeius (
talk)
22:47, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
To explain: "conduct unbecoming" (for officers) and "conduct prejudicial" (for ORs) is Army-lawyer speak for "we know you guys can come up with more acts of wrongdoing than we ever could, but these cover everything".
Hawkeye7(discuss)06:34, 4 February 2021 (UTC)reply
"The Smoking Gun" is not a great source, even for hosting the police report. And really, I'm not entirely sure a charging affidavit is a good source for what it's citing here.
I don't think using the charging affidavit hosted by Orlando Police is in compliance with
WP:BLPPRIMARY; since it's a BLP article, we need extra care with using high-quality sources given the criminal acts are attributed to the person.
WP:BLPPRIMARY: Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source It's covered by the other cited sources, and is just there to give the reader access to the primary source.
Hawkeye7(discuss)19:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Ref 115 is more court records. While it's just supporting trial events, can we find a non-primary source for this, per BLPPRIMARY? Also, the source is missing the publisher
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Although the 2007 incident is a significant event, it is unlikely to have attracted any media coverage if Nowak wasn't already known for being an astronaut. The current size of this section (1,800 words out of a bit more than 5,000 about her life in the body text) seems a UNDUE in that context. (
t ·
c) buidhe07:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)reply
Not only would it not have attracted media coverage, but Nowak probably wouldn't even have been charged. The saddest cases are the ones drummed out of the services for PTSD, and then denied medical treatment. I have to respect the hard work of other editors, but I have expanded the rest of the article to give it more balance.
Hawkeye7(discuss)09:31, 2 October 2020 (UTC)reply
""Getting accepted into flight training was therefore a major achievement," I'm always wary of 'therefore' sentences-- is this bit needed? does it add anything?
" at Naval Air Station Whiting Field and then trained on the Beechcraft T-34 Mentor" seems, to me, to equate a Naval Air Station to a type of plane (could be read as she went from training at the base to training on the plane) can you perhaps change this up a bit?
"In October 2001, she gave birth to twin daughters, Alyssa and Katrina" Per
WP:BLPNAME, The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. However, names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced. Consider removing the names of the children. Ditto with her other son
"Among the personal effects she packed for the flight was a small owl figurine of the mascot of Luxmanor Elementary School, a
koozie from Tilden Middle School, a banner from Charles W. Woodward High School, an Annapolis Class of 1985 flag, and her grandmother's engagement ring" Strikes me as trivia-- what's the encyclopedic value?
"latex gloves, a black wig, a
BB pistol and ammunition,
pepper spray, a hooded tan trench coat, a 2-pound (0.91 kg) drilling hammer, black gloves, rubber tubing, plastic garbage bags, approximately $585 in cash, her computer, an 8-inch (200 mm)
Gerber folding knife and several other items" can any of these items be folded into 'and several items' for readiblity?
That's it from me-- really interesting, well done article on the whole. All of my comments are, as always, suggestions rather than orders, open to discussion. Cheers,
Eddie891TalkWork23:14, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
*"in over 30 different aircraft, and was" Commas are unnecessary before dependent clause (and there are many places in the article appropriately without such commas, so this should be fixed to be consistent as well as grammatically correct). Delete or make ", and she was"
"and occasionally a professor would inform a class that he did not think women belonged there" Add "male" before "professor" to make clear you aren't using "he" generally.
"What impressed me", she later said, Put comma before quotation mark.
MOS:LQ: For the most part, this means treating periods and commas in the same way as question marks: keep them inside the quotation marks if they apply only to the quoted material and outside if they apply to the whole sentence. The comma here belongs outside, not being part of the original quote.
Hawkeye7(discuss)01:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
that each of their parts was so important". Put period before quotation mark.
and changed her last name to "Nowak" single quotes (when quotations exist in an article, it's good practice to not use double quotes for anything else.
I won't press the point, but the MOS note you reference refers to actual quotations. 'Nowak' is closer to the "simple gloss" exception.--
Neopeius (
talk)
19:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)reply
*"writing a thesis on "Computational Investigations of a NACA 0012 Airfoil in Low Reynolds Number Flows"." Use italics for article title rather than quotes (same reasoning; also, publications later in article are italicized)
"Training for a weightless environment was conducted in the waters of the Weightless Environment Training Facility, and in the" comma before dependent clause is unnecessary
"The women were considered for this activity; when NASA trimmed the space suit budget in the 1990s, small sizes were omitted." Do you mean "were not considered"?
Homecoming*"They attended X Games XII at the Home Depot Center in Los Angeles from August 3 to 6, and the Houston Astros game at Minute Maid Park on August 14. The crew got to meet" Suggest "on August 14, where the crew got to meet"
*"Nowak drove from Houston to Orlando, Florida, on February 4–5, 2007." This sentence comes out of nowhere (even if you move the paragraph regarding her marriage from the prior section to here). Suggest reversing the order (start with the date) and add "with the intention of confronting Shipman." (and possibly injuring, killing, or kidnapping her, but the only ultimate charge was burglary and battery so you don't need to give any more context. :) )
"Shipman referred to Nowak as an acquaintance of a boyfriend, but did not identify" Commas can get placed before dependent clauses if they are contrasting, and in this case, also to be consistent with similar usage downstream.
"For her work as a member of the crew of STS-121, NASA announced on May 30, 2007, that Nowak would receive the NASA Space Flight Medal at Johnson Space Center on June 5, 2007.[93]" This should go elsewhere, perhaps "After NASA" or an Awards section.
Y Moved. Some people were surprised that she was still awarded the medal. I was more surprised that she was awarded full custody of the three kids. (Those daughters are chips off the old block.)
Hawkeye7(discuss)01:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)reply
After NASA
*"A Naval administrative panel of consisting of" delete first "of"
@
Hawkeye7: Fantastic work. Very few changes needed. I would ask that, before I work on
Shuttle-Centaur that you do a search for any commas before dependent clauses and either delete them or make them independent clauses (generally by adding a pronoun) as required. That would make my editing much easier. Thank you! :) --
Neopeius (
talk)
22:47, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
To explain: "conduct unbecoming" (for officers) and "conduct prejudicial" (for ORs) is Army-lawyer speak for "we know you guys can come up with more acts of wrongdoing than we ever could, but these cover everything".
Hawkeye7(discuss)06:34, 4 February 2021 (UTC)reply
"The Smoking Gun" is not a great source, even for hosting the police report. And really, I'm not entirely sure a charging affidavit is a good source for what it's citing here.
I don't think using the charging affidavit hosted by Orlando Police is in compliance with
WP:BLPPRIMARY; since it's a BLP article, we need extra care with using high-quality sources given the criminal acts are attributed to the person.
WP:BLPPRIMARY: Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source It's covered by the other cited sources, and is just there to give the reader access to the primary source.
Hawkeye7(discuss)19:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Ref 115 is more court records. While it's just supporting trial events, can we find a non-primary source for this, per BLPPRIMARY? Also, the source is missing the publisher
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.