The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Passed as A-Class. PC78 ( talk) 21:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC) reply

Rang De Basanti

Considered a highly influential film in the Indian society, this article underwent a successful GA nomination in May 2008. Thereafter I've made a lot of edits to increase its comprehensiveness. After implementing the valuable comments and suggestions from its first A-class review in November 2008, I was quite sad to see that the article was not promoted despite no huge issues. I took a wikibreak since November and now I am back to work on this. Additional reviews please.. Mspraveen ( talk) 16:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by Girolamo Savonarola

It's definitely on its way, but the quality of English is nowhere near "brilliant prose". While I'll try to offer some guidance, what this needs above all else is a thorough copy edit. I'd strongly advise seeking out some of the Guild of Copy Editors members to assist you, if possible - my own copy editing skills only go so far.

•  Done "cast comprising of" - one of the last two words has to go in order for this to make grammatical sense. Also, since this is an ensemble piece, it may be advisable to pare down the actors in the lead solely to the principal roles, without a mention of the supporting actors. Otherwise it starts to read like a roll call.
•  Done Budget: why not just list this in rupees? Also, in contemporary exchange rates for the time, what is that in a western currency (e.g. dollars, pounds, euros)?
•  Done "the film begins with" - sounds like you're going to summarize the whole thing in the lead. How about "the film is about"?
•  Done "freedom fighters" - Freedom fighter? Were they armed? Or do you mean independence activist?
•  Done "She requests a group of youngsters" - requests of whom? requests the youngsters or for youngsters? Also, what is a youngster? A toddler? A teenager? High school or college students?
•  Done "who are indifferent to the state of affairs in India" - probably should not be enclosed in commas, unless you're implying that all youngsters are indifferent.
•  Done "metamorphosizes" - "radicalizes" or "catalyzes" is probably more appropriate
•  Done Combined both - On what basis are the last two paragraphs of the lead divided up?
•  Done Where is the cite in the lead for the DVD sales claim?
•  Done "about some revolutionaries" - "about some of the revolutionaries" is probably more appropriate in tone
•  Done Rewrote the sentence - "They are not enthusiastic at the idea of acting in a film about the independence movement, but Sue wins them over." - seems a bit limp
•  Done "In the meanwhile, Ajay Singh Rathod (Madhavan), who is Sonia's fiancé and also a Flight Lieutenant" - works better as "Meanwhile, Sonia's fiance, Ajay Singh Rathod (Madhavan), a Flight Lieutenant"
•  Done Angered by the situation - "Discontent with the situation" - Should be "discontented", but this isn't really strong enough to describe their reaction. "Aggrieved" might be more appropriate.
•  Done "in New Delhi, India." - drop India; this has already been established by the context.
•  Done "breaks up" - break up
•  Done "and in the process" - replace "and" with a semicolon
•  Done "is severely hurt" - how?
•  Done "These young men decide that they must emulate the early freedom fighters and resort to violence to achieve justice. They kill the defence minister to avenge Rathod's death." - "These young men" does not refer to anything immediately preceding it in the text. The second sentence is too perfunctory - perhaps these two sentences need to be rewritten to be more closely integrated.
•  Done That's what the film suggests to its viewers - "The minister is speculated to have been killed by terrorists" - umm...political killings not carried out by a state generally are considered terrorism.
•  Done The media reports the killings inaccurately as a terrorist act. Reworded it, however - "To bring forth the true story" - there's nothing inaccurate about what's been reported. Presumably you mean that they want to reveal the pretext for their actions?
•  Done "Before they do so, Karan murders his father for his corrupt actions." - probably is easier to combine this with the minister's death. Reads cleaner that way, and stays more within the chronology (at least as I understand it).
•  Done Reworded it - "while holding no hostages" - superfluous, unless this somehow has relevance to the plot further on.
•  Done "police and commandos" - what, the police and commandos? Military commandos or a police commando unit?
•  Done "Aks (2001)" - drop the (2001) - the article link will provide that information.
•  Done "next venture" - what, a business opportunity? If you mean film, just say film. This sentence also would read better if combined with the following one.
•  Done "shop, the other" - "shop, while the other"
•  Done "Shortly thereafter, his survey" - what survey?
•  Done "While his plans of making a film on freedom fighters were dropped due to this reason, another idea emerged in which a British documentary filmmaker on a visit to India realizes that the native youngsters are far more Western than her." - "Because of this, he dropped his plans of making a film on freedom fighters in favor of another idea in which a British..."
•  Done "His want to join the Indian Air Force while in school, his recollections of listening to Independence Day speeches and watching patriotic films such as Mother India (1957) lent originality to the story" - drop (1957) and try this: "His desire to join the Indian Air Force while in school, as well as recollections of listening to Independence Day speeches and watching patriotic films such as Mother India lent originality to the story."
•  Done Reworded the sentence - "his friends and he are present in the characters" - awkward and not properly idiomatic
•  Done "Inclusive of three years for writing the script, Mehra took seven years to research aspects for the story." - "Mehra took seven years to research and develop the story, including three to write the script."
•  Done "When doubts were expressed on Mehra's morale after his last film's failure at the box office, he retorted by saying that it did not affect him at all and his new film will not follow that style." - "regarding Mehra's morale" would be better than "on" his morale. What does his morale have to do with his style?
•  Done "not only his storytelling technique improved, but also past mistakes helped him" - "not only did his storytelling technique improve, but past mistakes also had helped him"
•  Done "Although unwilling to disclose much, he hinted that the film will be "very bright and contemporary in terms of language and identity"[4] and "it has a very strong message at the end"." - Not certain if this is needed. I'm guessing this was added into the article before release when information was scarce, but it adds little value to the article now, as it currently is much more fully fleshed out.

I'm going to stop here for now - let me know when these issues have been worked out and I'll be happy to continue. Please also seriously consider a thorough copy edit, because the current prose quality is significantly slowing down my review speed (and patience). Just being honest. Good luck and I look forward to seeing how the article develops! Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 22:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC) reply

Thank you very much for the patient review. I really appreciate it. I've reworded several sentences that appear better to me. Not being a native English speaker, it is, indeed, difficult to commit lesser mistakes. I've tried in the past to seek copyediting from other editors, but was not really successful. I'm not sure if you'll have the patience to last the complete article, but if you do, I'll promptly rework on the article. Thanks again. Mspraveen ( talk) 05:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC) reply

No worries! I didn't mean patience like losing my cool, I really meant it more like "I'm getting physically tired and need a break". I'd be happy to continue, but you might need to be patient with me for a bit, as I'm currently on vacation. I'll get right on it as I find time. In the meantime, hopefully some of our other editors will be chipping in with their reviews. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 13:58, 11 February 2009 (UTC) reply

Great! I'll wait until you're back. Hope you are having a good vacation! Mspraveen ( talk) 18:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by Nehrams2020

I haven't viewed the above suggestions, so if any of my comments conflict with Girolamo's, then please specify accordingly. The following are mostly grammar fixes, and most shouldn't take too long to fix.

•  Done "It features an ensemble cast comprising Aamir Khan, Soha Ali Khan, Madhavan, Kunal Kapoor, Siddharth Narayan, Sharman Joshi, Atul Kulkarni, British actress Alice Patten in the lead roles." "...Kulkarni, and British..." Also remove the comma after Kulkarni since the serial comma is not used throughout the rest of the article.
•  Done "Upon arriving in India, she requests a group of five young men to act in her film." I think "asks a group" flows better.
•  Done Changed it to their dear friend.. Hope it works well with the flow -- "After they agree and begin filming, a dear friend dies in a fighter aircraft crash." A dear friend of who? The young men or the filmmaker?
• I mentioned this in the first review and want to make sure it's touched on again. Since the lead has a conversion from crores to dollars, I think all of the other occurrences in the article should also have conversions as well. That includes the figures in the infobox and release section.
•  Done "...Sue manages to convince them eventually." Change to "...Sue eventually manages..."
• "...Mehra revealed that the film's budget was Rs. 25 crores,..." Add the conversion here as well.
•  Done Rewrote the sentence. I hope it appears better -- "The combination of David Reid and Adam Bohling, who had previously worked for films such as Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels,..." It says work on films such as, but only one film is listed. Mention more or write "who had previously worked on Lock together."
•  Done "Having worked as an assistant director previously, Siddharth was all praise for Mehra's filmmaking..." Perhaps "...Siddharth praised Mehra's..."
•  Done I believe you are referring to they'd -- "The Delhi Tourism department felt that if the city's tourism gets promoted, they'd rather support such activities." Contractions shouldn't be used unless it's in a quote.
•  Done "Since the film start men in their late twenties,..." Maybe reword to "Since the film's plot focused on men..."
•  Done "In India, The Hindu reported that with audiences from the metropolitan cities turning out in large numbers, film was notching up record collections in its opening week." Replace film with the title.
•  Done "A report carried out by The Times of India highlighted piracy..." Italicize the newspaper.
•  Done"However, results from a simultaneously conducted SMS poll indicated that 62 percent felt that the film was the right choice to the Oscars." "...for the Oscars."
•  Done"...inefficiency in proving basic amenities, corruption, bureaucracy." "...inefficiency in proving basic amenities, corruption and bureaucracy."

Looks good overall. The article has come a long way since before its first A-class review and I believe it will pass this time. Once the above issues are addressed, I'll take another look. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 22:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC) reply

Great! Thanks for yet another review Nehrams2020! I was able to address all the above aspects, but for the numbers conversion. Do you mean that all numbers need conversion? Do I skip the ones that are mentioned in USD? Mspraveen ( talk) 18:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC) reply

I would say that you either go with crores or dollars as your main measurement and then convert for the other (if the article goes with crores then ex.Rs. 25 crores (approximately US$5.5 million) would work just fine. In addition, make sure to add a conversion for the gross of $29 million as well. Fixing all of the occurrences in the article shouldn't be too hard. Good job on addressing the above points so far. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 17:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC) reply

Thank you for the feedback. I have addressed this issue now as per your suggestion. To avoid confusion between the Indian currency term crore, I've converted all such instances into "million". Frankly, the numbers appear more streamlined after these changes. Hope all appears well now. Cheers, Mspraveen ( talk) 04:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC) reply

Good job on addressing these issues. I have made a few minor fixes, as well as addressing some dabs. Looking over the article from the points I've raised which have now been addressed, I believe the article meets the A-class criteria, so I support. Prior to going to FAC (if that's the path you're interested in taking), make sure to update all of the access dates and make sure there are no dead links. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 08:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by PC78

OK, sorry about this. I did write a review for this article about two weeks ago, but apparently I forgot to save the damn thing. Thankfully I was bold enough to edit out most of my concerns, but there are a few remaining issues:

• The links for refs #4, 15, 21, 28, 32, 33, 37, 46, 56, 60, 68, 90, 96, 103 and 104 are broken.

I tried fixing some of these, but most are not included in the Internet Archive or can't be found on my server. Not sure how to fix these unless other sources can be found. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I'll see if I can fix these myself when I'm more in the mood. PC78 ( talk) 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Done what I can. PC78 ( talk) 21:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• The infobox says that the film is Hindi/English/Punjabi language, but the article is categorised as Hindi and Urdu language.

I changed the categories to reflect that in the infobox. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "...it had the highest-selling DVD title sales of its time." – a little vague; what is meant by this?

Changed it to "at the time of its release." Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Chandrasekhar Azad (Aamir Khan), Bhagat Singh (Siddharth Narayan), Shivaram Rajguru (Sharman Joshi), Ashfaqulla Khan (Kunal Kapoor), and Ram Prasad Bismil (Atul Kulkarni)" – this is a little misleading as it suggests that the actors play the freedom fighters, when it is actually their fictional counterparts.

Having not seen the film, I'm assuming that the actors portrayed both the fiction counterparts as well as the freedom fighters. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Changed this bit myself. As someone else who hasn't seen it, knowing who played who in the film within the film doesn't seem all that important. PC78 ( talk) 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• Link to "freedom fighters" in the last paragraph of the plot summary – a minor issue, but shouldn't this be linked earlier in the plot summary when the characters are first introduced?

Moved the link. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "...and worked on it for about two years, with the aid of a third, uncredited script writer from Malaysia." – I may have missed it, but this does not appear to be mentioned in the cited source.

Read the source and couldn't find anything, so I inserted it into a hidden comment for now. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "...Joshi said that the song was not initially thought of. While discussing the scene about a mother's loss of her son with Rahman, he had come up with lyrics that suggest of both of them playing hide-and-seek with the sad reality of the son being hidden forever." – this is a little bit unclear

Reworded. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The film, which was scheduled to release two weeks before its theatrical release..." – does this mean that the release was delayed for two weeks?

I think it is stating that it was postponed to the objections, but that's just me. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Was going to reword this bit, but when I checked the sources I couldn't see any explicit mention of a two week delay, so I removed it instead. PC78 ( talk) 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "...the soundtrack was well-appreciated by the audiences in subsequent time." – unclear.

This needs sources to back this up. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Have now reworded and removed unsourced statements. PC78 ( talk) 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "...and as a result the film was the highest selling title of its time." – as above, the meaning is a bit vague here.

Changed it to "at the time of its release." Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The film also received rave reviews..." – sounds a little POVish.

Changed it to positive. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk • contrib) 22:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I think that's everything. On the whole the article is thorough and well-written; the main problem is with the dead links which are just too many to ignore. I'll have another look when the above concerns have been addressed. Regards. PC78 ( talk) 16:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Support. My only lingering concern is with the dead links in the references, but I've been able to fix some of them and will take it on faith that the rest can be sourced elsewhere. This will certainly need to be dealt with before an FAC, but I think I can let it slide here. Regards. PC78 ( talk) 21:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I planned to review this article, but since the nominator is not around for the time being, I may hold off. (I reviewed U2 3D instead.) Will the nominator be back anytime soon? — Erik ( talk • contrib) 16:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article was promoted to A-class, with three supports and no opposes. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 20:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Tropic Thunder

I have worked on improving this article a few months after it was first created. I have scoured the Internet looking for sources, and after attaining GA status, I have also just recently added to the article information from the special features of the recent DVD release. The article is comprehensive in covering the film and is well-sourced throughout. I plan to take it to FA at some point, and would appreciate any feedback here in improving the article further. Thanks for looking. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC) reply

Comments by Erik

• I keep meaning to get to this, but I haven't had a nice chunk of time to sit down and review. I think that most of my concerns would be anything in print sources that online sources may have missed out. I'll need to look at the article's resources before investigating, obviously. A quick suggestion, though, since I just did this for Hancock -- can you update the article with this about ranking on DVD charts? — Erik ( talk • contrib) 19:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC) reply

No big deal on the delay. I can devote some more time to the article this weekend, after I finish my major test tomorrow. I was actually waiting for an article concerning sales, so thanks for finding one I could use. Please take your time. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Some new thoughts... all this time, I am not sure if we have been in compliance with MOS:BOLD in how we format the names in Cast sections. It has troubled me for a little while, and I am not sure if we should be bolding names in the first place. What do you think? No matter what, though, I think that we could write in prose the cast members below Steve Coogan. It seems excessive to bold and even give each one a bullet point. I think the same could go for "Cameos", where white space could be reduced by just stringing together the names of celebrities who played themselves then identifying other cameos in which they played specific roles. Also, can the article be evaluated to make sure there are non-breaking spaces whenever appropriate? For example, a NBSP would be warranted between month and day (like August 13) and dollar figures (like $100 million). I think that NBSPs should be used in the date= and accessdate= fields since the NBSP logic would apply to their presentation in the References section, too. Lastly, is there any chance we can get a screenshot of Tom Cruise in his role? It seems like it would be a worthwhile addition to the article. Maybe a screenshot of him from across the desk with his elbow on it, finger pointing at someone? Seems very producer-like to me. :) I still need to poke around to compare the article to print sources' content. Hope these tips help. Let me know if there are any questions. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 20:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I had actually not added bold font to the cast section this time to a film article I had worked on, but somebody actually did within the last week or so. Anyway, I removed it and also converted the cameos to prose. I believe I added the NBSPs everywhere that needed them, but let me know if I missed any. I don't have access to the DVD right now (I knew I should have done it earlier when I rented it), though I will probably be buying/receiving it on Blu-ray within the next month. Thanks for the suggestions. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 07:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC) reply

More thoughts...

• Do we need the "director's cut" in the infobox? It does not seem like a genuine director's cut like with Brazil or Kingdom of Heaven. It does not seem to have been treated as anything more than DVD packaging.

I'm not really familiar with the director's cuts for those films. I believe this one was significantly different compared to the theatrical version, including adding a large deleted scene and changing/adding numerous lines throughout the film. I guess I don't see any harm in mentioning the length of the director's cut, but if you think it still should be removed, let me know. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• In "Casting", can it be clarified who wrote the role of the Caucasian Australian portraying an African American? If it is Stiller, can it be said with a more active verb, like, "Stiller created the role of Sgt. Lincoln Osiris as a way to lampoon..."

I used the source you provided on the talk page to source this.  Done

• "Audiences that have seen it so far have totally embraced the character." I personally think this should be removed from the quote... it just sounds a little opinionated. The following sentence seems to address this without a problem.  Done
• I think that the content in the "Casting" subsection is a little out of order, especially when it goes from the NAACP viewing to the original Irish origin. Any way to make that flow better?

Let me know if the shuffle looks better or not. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• In "Tom Cruise's role", it says, "keep... as a surprise". I think this could be clarified to say, "keep... as a secret until the film's release."  Done
• It also says that the studio refused to release pictures... can it be explained who this was in response to? Was there specific pressure?

I reworded it a bit. I couldn't find anything about specific pressure though. Take a look and see if I should reword if further. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• In "Script", "got the idea for the film" seems a little simplistic. Maybe "came up with the premise"?  Done
• "Stiller wanted to make a film based on the actors he knew who considered themselves "self-important" after taking part in fake boot camps to prepare for war film roles." The "taking part" phrase seems a little ambivalent... I know that it's talking about the actors, but it could refer to Stiller. Possibly rewrite?  Done
• Stiller's quote in the quotebox: Can the "No," be dumped? It feels weird to start off a quote this way, makes you search at that point for the right context. I think that if you start with "...I feel the tone" or something similar, you don't have to imply a context too soon.  Done
• "...where Stiller has a home." Was this a reason why Kauai was chosen? If not, I'm not sure if this detail is necessary.

It was not the single reason for choosing the island, but in the sources I read, it was by living there, that he was familiar with the area and had decided that he wanted to film there. But again, other locations were considered as well, so if you think I should remove it I can. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• I think that the first paragraph of "Filming" lacks a clear flow... it goes from the 2006 greenlight back to 2004, and Kauai details are separated by the "additional filming" detail. Maybe reorganize either chronologically or otherwise?

I moved some of the sentences around, how does it look now? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• "After filming was completed, it was determined that Tropic Thunder was the largest production ever filmed on the island." I think this could be moved to the beginning of the paragraph, maybe tied with the "first... in five years" detail. Also suggest adding "to date" since it's not immutable.  Done
• The third "Filming" paragraph seems like it could be broken into two. The second half of the paragraph seems to focus more on pyrotechnic effects, so do you think that we could have an "Effects" subsection covering the pyrotechnic effects and the visual effects? Or is that too disjointed?  Done
• In "Faux trailers", was "Grindhouse" a cited comparison? Was not sure if was an add-on observation or not.

I think I may have seen it somewhere or I may have added it myself. I don't know if that qualifies as OR or not, but if you think so, I can remove it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• "Of the three trailers, Satan's Alley was deemed the easiest to film, even while only having Maguire on set for two hours for his scenes." I'm a little confused by this sentence... did the citation imply that there would be difficulty in filming the trailer because of Maguire not being around for so long? It just strikes me as two disjointed details about the trailer. Let me know if my impression is off the mark or not.

They are two separate things, and I just added both in one sentence instead of having two brief individual sentences. Do you think it should be deleted altogether, or should either one of the elements be removed? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• In "Promotion", about the trailer, is the same trailer being discussed throughout the paragraph? I wasn't sure if the "red band trailer" was apart. Maybe say something like, "DreamWorks also released a red band trailer, the first of its kind used by the studio to promote one of its films."  Done
• "Afterwards, the three later appeared to present the "Best Movie" award." I think that the previous sentence is fine, but the presentation one does not seem to add much. Thoughts on this?

I don't think I added this but had left it there. But after reading it now when you pointed it out, it does look like it should be removed. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• "Since April 2008, the film has had more than 250 promotional screenings." I think that a historical perspective needs to be established. Maybe, "Between April 2008 and the film's commercial release in August 2008, the film had more..."  Done
• "On August 8, 2008, a special 30-minute E! True Hollywood Story aired about the making of Tropic Thunder." Another marketing bit that I am not sure has much impact for this particular section. Seems more like something that would be cited to add detail to the article.

Before watching this, I was hoping that it would be a great source for adding details about the production of the film. However, it was just a mockumentary, and didn't have any reliable content to add to the article. I included it in the section since it appeared to be a significant marketing segment for the film. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• The first paragraph in "Faux websites and mockumentary" does not have references. If they are elsewhere, can they be replicated here? Also, I think that (see below) in this paragraph is a little self-referential. Maybe set up an anchor link or just remove the phrase entirely?

I didn't add sources for the first sentence since it is described in more detail in the controversy section. The other sites described are illustrated in the external links section. I removed the "see below" and added a wikilink instead within the sentence. If you still think it is too self-referential, I can remove it completely. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• "In mid-July 2008, a faux trailer for the mockumentary Rain of Madness was released, which is a parody of Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse." I think that the sentence is a little out of order, it goes from the "released" action to defining the trailer. Maybe have two separate sentences, the latter being, "The mockumentary was a parody of Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse."  Done
• "This is the first product to be released concurrently with a film's release..." I think this can be rewritten to say, "The drink was the first product to be released..." The word "This" is kind of vague, especially with the previous noun being "film".  Done
• I think "Premiere and release date" could be called "Theatrical release". Again, the first paragraph in this sentence has a self-referential "(see below)".  Done
• Not sure if the years for The 40-Year-Old Virgin and Superbad should be wiki-linked... the year-in-film articles are not relevant to this particular article about the 2008 film.  Done
• "Michael Cieply from The New York Times is quoted as saying..." Considering that the citation is written by Cieply himself, I don't think anyone but us Wikipedia editors is quoting him. :) Suggest rewriting to be more to the point.  Done
• $110,461,307 was made in the United States and Canada... Box Office Mojo has a page somewhere that says "domestic" encompasses these territories.

Was not aware of this. I made the change as suggested. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• "Tropic Thunder has received several awards from various groups." This is kind of filler. Do we need this sentence?  Done
• In "External links", is there not a link that shows all the fictional websites in one place? Since Wikipedia is not a linkfarm, it seems too much that more than half of the ELs are "official".

The only ones I found were this and this, but I don't know if that would be reliable/respectable enough to include in the external links? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Feel free to strike out any points that you address. I still need to prowl for print sources to see if anything else needs inclusion, but nice job so far! :) — Erik ( talk • contrib) 01:36, 10 December 2008 (UTC) reply

• Support per improvements made above. Nice job! — Erik ( talk • contrib) 12:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Answers to questions above

I'm not really familiar with the director's cuts for those films. I believe this one was significantly different compared to the theatrical version, including adding a large deleted scene and changing/adding numerous lines throughout the film. I guess I don't see any harm in mentioning the length of the director's cut, but if you think it still should be removed, let me know. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I do not think we have really discussed this as a community. It seems that the director's cut would only be relevant for the infobox if it really was a cut that changed the meaning of the film (such as Blade Runner, Kingdom of Heaven, or Brazil). For a film like Tropic Thunder, it seems more like a way to improve the packaging of the home media. On the other hand, though, the DVD copy is the one that people will be exposed to now and forever. I don't really know... :P — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

It was not the single reason for choosing the island, but in the sources I read, it was by living there, that he was familiar with the area and had decided that he wanted to film there. But again, other locations were considered as well, so if you think I should remove it I can. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I think it's fine to mention it, then. Wasn't sure if there was a connection. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I moved some of the sentences around, how does it look now? --Nehrams2020 (talk) 23:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

• Works for me! — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Before watching this, I was hoping that it would be a great source for adding details about the production of the film. However, it was just a mockumentary, and didn't have any reliable content to add to the article. I included it in the section since it appeared to be a significant marketing segment for the film. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I think it's fine, then... my impression was that it was one of these "Access Hollywood" segments, but if it was played up as a mockumentary, that is a bit more unique. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I didn't add sources for the first sentence since it is described in more detail in the controversy section. The other sites described are illustrated in the external links section. I removed the "see below" and added a wikilink instead within the sentence. If you still think it is too self-referential, I can remove it completely. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Is there any secondary source that details the promotional websites? It seems easy for a studio to put them up, and we've seen quite a few for specific mainstream films, like Cloverfield and The Dark Knight. It may be worth finding a citation that can at least indicate a website's relevance. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

The only ones I found were this and this, but I don't know if that would be reliable/respectable enough to include in the external links? --Nehrams2020 (talk) 03:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I hesitate to have so many promotional websites in the EL section... what about removing them from that section and instead name them in the article body somehow? Like searching for panda relocation foundation will get me to the site anyway. May be a good side-step to stay neutral. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 15:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Comments by Steve

• Comments. The use of Rotten Tomtoes and Metacritic in the reception section may need some clarification. For example, someone unfamiliar with the sites shouldn't have to click through to another article to discover that "the film has an 83% positive rating based on 210 reviews" means that 83% of critics gave the film a positive review. Picky, I know. Tweaking the wording so it's similar to that used at Hancock (film)#Reception might help. And, while this might be more personal preference on my part rather than anything other editors would ask for were this to go to FAC, the paragraphs containing perceptions from individual critics seem a little light. I'm not demanding anything along the lines of Changeling (film)#Critical response (which might benefit from some pruning) but with dozens of reviews from mainstream critics to draw upon, I think more could be said. And there are a couple of spaced Em dashes, which per WP:DASH might have to be unspaced, but as they're both within direct quotes, I'm not sure how the MOS guideline applies. Might be worth checking. Otherwise, this is looking good. Steve ^{T • C} 23:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Thanks for taking a look. I reworded the RT rating and it's similar to the wording of Hancock now. I left the Em dashes as they were since that was how they were written in the sources. If someone raises issue at FAC, I'll deal with it then. I've been thinking about expanding the review section for awhile, and with your little nudge, I'll get to doing it later today. I'll let you know when I'm done so that you can take another look. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 09:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC) reply

I've expanded on the reception section a bit, let me know what you think. I'll probably still tinker with it some more over the next few days as I keep looking over various reviews. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Just to let you know, I'll definitely be nipping back over here tomorrow for another glance at the article. Steve ^{T • C} 23:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC) reply

OK, the reception section is looking a lot beefier. I was going to mention that the critics' comments on the controversy over the "Simple Jack" stuff maybe slants too far to those that are rebutting the criticisms; the paragraph contains mostly positive remarks, leaping straight into the Washington Times' "arguing against the opposition". But then, there is an entire stand-alone section detailing the concerns, so while it's probably not necessary to balance out equally the positive comments with more negative ones, it might be a good idea to start the paragraph (after the introductory sentence) with one quote from a film critic who did find it offensive (if one exists). Steve ^{T • C} 08:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I looked through all of the "rotten" review at RT and nobody spoke out against SJ (except for one reviewer who called the joke old). I also did a Google search, and the only negative thoughts on it came from those who don't review films. The last review in that paragraph is kind of negative, so maybe I should start with that? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments from Girolamo Savonarola

• Is Sandusky actually identified as a character actor? Supporting actor might be more appropriate - character actors are usually supporting actors, while supporting actors are not necessarily character actors.

Wow, that was like reading a riddle! Changed to supporting actor. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Does Speedman believe that Cockburn is dead but try to convince the actors otherwise, or does he truly believe that Cockburn is still alive in contradiction to everyone?

He believes that he is alive, and does his best to convince the other actors. Lazarus was the only one who truly still believes that Cockburn is dead. Do you think it needs to be reworded? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Yes - otherwise it looks like he's trying to fool them into thinking he's alive when Speedman is aware that he isn't. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Speedman isn't aware that Cockburn is dead. I think his character is too stupid to recognize it/doesn't want to recognize it. The other actors do think he is dead, but Speedman, believing he knows more about action films, does his best to convince him that Cockburn faked his death. He is able to convince all of the actors for the most part, especially after the ambush, but not Lazarus. I reworded it a bit more. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Mostly improved, but now all four of them suddenly appear to want to be rescued. That wouldn't make sense if the other three still believed Cockburn was alive - presumably they've been convinced otherwise? Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

It is never stated if the other three actors believe that Cockburn is dead or alive again. They appear to just be along for the journey and will do whatever Speedman or Lazarus tells them to do. When they get tired and discover they are heading in the wrong direction they start to believe Lazarus and head off to be resuced and not continue making the movie. I did reword -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Unbeknownst to the actors" - perhaps the actors and the production would be better; presumably no one meant to drop them in the middle of a drug war zone.

Changed. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "they split off from him, with Portnoy and Chino and leave Speedman" - reads awkward, feels like the two split off, then get Portnoy and Chino, then leave again.

I reworded it a bit, let me know if it still doesn't read that well. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Much better, but a new question - do the other four still believe that they're making the movie, or are they just trying to get picked up? In other words, do they think that they are correctly following the shot list or have they abandoned the idea? Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I reworded it to say that the four actors are hoping to be rescued to deter any belief that they still want to film the movie. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Slowly going insane" - is this actually going insane or just getting way too into a method-ish headspace? Is this distinct from his later Stockholm syndrome?

I see what you're saying. I can't think of a better way of rewording it, do you have any suggestions? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "the actors open fire on the gang" - aren't they firing blanks?

I reworded it a bit more into the next sentence. Let me know how it sounds. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The gang quickly rejoins, crossing a bridge that Underwood had rigged to detonate" - who rejoins who? Are Underwood and Tayback a part of the gang? Did Underwood rig the bridge ahead of time, or is he rigging it around that time? (ie, has any significant amount of time passed between arriving at the bridge and rigging it)

Reworded, please take a look. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Still doesn't read like they reunited with Underwood and Tayback - just looks like they grabbed their ride. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Clarified further. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Do they cross the bridge and then rejoin, or vice versa? I seem to remember it being the other way around, but I could be mistaken. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

They rejoin with Tayback and meet with Underwood once they've crossed the bridge. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Should Jive be capitalized?

Lower-cased. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Surely a source can be found to compare the Jack Black character to Eddie Murphy's Klumps films?

I previously found a source for it and it's mentioned in the faux trailers section. Do you think it should be mentioned in the cast as well? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I think this might be a better way of getting the contextual information out of the plot section. See further comments about the section move below. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Tropic Thunder, the novel" - while it is revealed to be false, it strictly speaking isn't presented as a novel, nor is this known to most of the world within the film. Maybe "Tropic Thunder, a memoir of his war experiences". The rest of the character description should make things clear enough - otherwise, calling it a novel may be confusing - why does it matter that he's not a vet and has hands, then? The parenthetical could probably also be split similarly to start the description of him as handless.

I'm not sure if I interpreted your instructions clearly, so please take a look at his now reworded description. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "foul-mouthed executive" - foul-mouthed studio executive

Done. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The explosives expert behind the film" - he can't behind the film, he's just a technician. "The film's explosives expert", maybe?

Done. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "is heartbroken" - heartbroken, not disillusioned?

Changed. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• IIRC, I believe that the MOS would be to write Downey rather than Downey Jr, unless there is a need to distinguish between the father and son. Not 100% on that, but it certainly looks and reads clunky.

I posted a question at Wikiproject Bio, will respond once I get a reply. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Cf Martin Luther King Jr, who is usually referred to as King if only called by his last name. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

In his article, it was also reduced to Downey. I removed all of the occurrences. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Might be one left towards the beginning. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I figured I would leave one for one last instance of clarification, but have decided against it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Not certain if Cruise requires a section below Casting, but if so, then I'd put all of the Cruise info from the prior paragraph into that section as well - a section on Cruise shouldn't split the content. That or a retitle to Cruise controversy or something more specific. But again, I'm not certain this content can't simply be integrated into the existing structure in place or elsewhere in Production.

Removed the subheading. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Come to think of that, Casting probably is better placed after the Script section, if Production is going to include development and pre-production too.

Moved the section. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "MTV News reported that" - I'm not certain that the fact that MTV reported it is important, nor is a direct quote necessarily needed. A summary with the reference should be enough.

Removed the quote, and summarized. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Years after film titles are distracting and not necessary, since the links to their articles provide that information. Unless the year is directly related to the text itself, in which case it should be integrated into the prose instead of being a parenthetical. (It's also being applied inconsistently anyway.)

Removed all cases. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The film satirizes other Vietnam War films including Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Hamburger Hill, and The Deer Hunter, among others." - Does it really satirize each of these films? The only one I remember specifically being parodied is Platoon (Defoe's death); otherwise, it seems like a parody of the Vietnam film genre on the whole. The reference is not really strong (one local newspaper), and whatever they said, I can't find it, since it's gone 404 in the meantime.

The obvious film that is spoofed was Platoon. I remember the source mentioning all of the films, and even after doing a Google search and attempting to resurrect the link with the Internet Archive, I can't pull it up. I replaced it with another source as well as the production notes that talk about it. Instead of listing all of the films, should I just say the Vietnam War film genre? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I'm guessing you shouldn't have too hard of a time finding a ref for Platoon, but if you don't have them for the others, I think you have to generalize the rest. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I kept the three that are in the source and reworded the sentence. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "initially suggested for filming" - suggested for the main unit/production base, something of that ilk. This should be clarified, since the article does go on to state that some of the film was shot in SoCal.

I think I reworded it okay, but please take another look. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Per next reply. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• The Kauai sentences perhaps should come after its mentioned that they chose it - while this isn't strict chronology, it is better flow. Similarly, the additional filming should probably come after Hawaii has been exhausted. It interrupts otherwise, and looks out of place if it occurs too early without any additional context.

Take another look at this since I moved some sentences and wording around. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Hmm...not certain. Let me mull it over. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• What is a moving storyboard? Do you mean an animatic?

Looking at the definition it looks like that is what it is. In the featurette it showed a computer-generated storyboard that was pretty intricate and close to the actual look of the film. I added a wikilink. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I'd just call it an animatic, then. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Reworded. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Notable unused production sources: Kodak, ICG Theroux interview

I incorporated a few things from the sources. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

*Faux trailers...Can this be integrated into the plot and production sections? Don't know what's the best approach to this, but it sticks out like a sore thumb and it's placement is problematic. Also the title is confusing - it could imply discussion of fake TT trailers.

I moved this before the plot section. I initially had it there before, but other editors kept moving it down. Let me know if you think it should be moved to an alternate area. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I think this needs to be divided in three parts - the basic plot description should go into the Plot instead of meriting its own section within that, which seems somewhat muddled. I'm not certain how detailed it needs to be one way or the other, though. The real-world context of what is being parodied probably is best placed in the cast/characters sections, and the filming details can be incorporated into the production section, probably near the Tom Cruise section, since it involves cameos. Thoughts?

I kept the basic info about the trailers at the beginning of the plot. I moved the information about the spoofs to the cast/characters section and the Maguire cameo in the paragraph talking about the other cameos. Let me know if it needs to be adjusted further.

• "funded by themselves to charity" - huh?

Funded by themselves for charity. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

What does that mean, though? That they paid for the production costs because American Idol was too cheap? Or did it for a charity? If so, how did a TV appearance raise money? I'm still confused. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Sorry, I thought we were just talking about grammar. I believe the event was a special charity event where various singers were performing for a telethon type of event to raise money for a charity. I don't think that part is that notable to mention, so I just removed it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Our movie's poster doesn't really fit in" - again, lost me. The context for this is unclear. What does a poster have to do with screening a film in a festival?

I just removed the quote altogether. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Faux websites - No references for the first paragraph.

I added a source about pulling the site. I have yet to find a reliable site for sourcing the faux websites. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Could be better, but I'm not as concerned anymore. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The faux documentary included a movie poster and an official website prior to Tropic Thunder's release" - included them in the documentary? I don't understand.

Reworded. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 20:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The energy drink was the first product to be released concurrently with a film's release" - I'm pretty sure that the Wonka bars done for the recent film would also qualify. I know that's not a source, but more research might be in order.

There isn't too much on the topic of Booty Sweat. I know The Simpsons Movie marketed some of their fictional products, but that was prior to the film's release. For the Wonka Bars, those were created before/after the original film. In the sources I've seen the products came out prior to the film's release or, more often, afterwards. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I don't really get this distinction - usually concurrent is a more or less type of thing, what are you meaning? What you seem to be claiming is that the fact that this came out exactly on the day of release is somehow notable. I don't really see what it matters if product tie-ins come out a few weeks ahead of or shortly after the release - these are generally regarded as concurrently released items in such occurrences. In any case, are we sure that this isn't just the beverage manufacturer repackaging something already being made, or just creating a limited edition variety under the fictional name for tie-in purposes? Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Since there are not that many sources that can reliably defend the claim, I just removed it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "speculated that the film would outperform The Dark Knight" - I'm assuming this is regarding the weekend gross for it's opening weekend? If so, needs clarification.

I split up the sentences to better clarify the opening weekend gross. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "The film grossed over $100 million domestically, becoming the first film Stiller directed to do so.[97] Tropic Thunder also became Stiller's seventh, Black's fourth, and Downey, Jr.'s third film to gross more than $100 million domestically in their careers as lead actors." - Seems a bit trivial box office porn, IMHO. If it's Stiller's most successful film that he directed, just say so. I think the "actor's Xth film" is wholly arbitrary - how is it relevant or important, and why exactly is $100m a notable benchmark of all the ones to choose?

It sounded good at the time, but I see what you mean. Although box office porn is my favorite, I've removed it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Still wondering about the Stiller/$100m mark. Especially since as an actor he's done it several times before, and he is acting in this, it's not clear that this is a result of him directing this film. Simply noting that it has become his most successful film as a director (maybe with a comparison to what it surpassed) seems more germane and elegant. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Please take another look. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

It's still clunky listing all of his prior films. I was thinking more along the lines of "besting Such and Such's gross of $lots to become his most successful film" or something similar. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Better or still need to be reworded? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I took the liberty - hope you don't mind. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Looks good. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Golden Trailer Awards is mentioned twice - can this be consolidated?

Mentioned only in the promotion section. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Nomination categories should be capitalized

Fixed all of these. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 23:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• DEA shouldn't be punctuated, much like FBI or CIA. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Nice catch. I had quickly typed it without realizing it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "20th for most sales in 2008" - 20th for DVD sales reads better and is grammatically correct. (Unless you're implying that this was the most common 20th item purchased. I suppose some people could be that compulsive, heh.) Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

That would be a lot of additional revenue if left as it was! Reworded. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

"the 20th" needs to drop "the". Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Dropped. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Might want to split effects, with the upper paragraph going to Filming and the lower one becoming Post-production. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 02:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

This conflicts with Erik's suggestion above, and I think it should be fine as is (don't worry, I'm not picking sides!). -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Given that there's not too much else post-wise being discussed, I'm fine with that. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Unbeknown" - not certain that this is a word or if it would be grammatical. Unbeknownst is what I believe you're looking for. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Fixed, had typed it too fast and wasn't paying attention. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• I was under the impression that the plural of Flaming Dragon is also Flaming Dragon. (A la al Qaeda.) Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

"It's Chinese. You wouldn’t call them Chineses." I just switched them to "gang" to be safe. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Not convinced, but meh... Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• "Tayback wrote" - Perhaps this should be labelled as a claim, since he seems to be on the spot and making excuses. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

He still did write the book, even if wasn't true. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I worded that poorly - I meant that he claimed that he wrote the book as a tribute - given the circumstances he finds himself in when he claims that, it might be an excuse. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Got ya, I reworded. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• The anon edit regarding Russell Crowe was poorly sourced, but probably on point and may merit follow-up. Might be fairly easy to source. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 05:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Per this interview Downey claims he didn't base it off any one person. However, should I readd it if some reviewers thought he was portraying Crowe? -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 06:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I mentioned additional details in the casting section. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 04:57, 14 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• The panda mention seems superfluous without context to his work with the pandas. Either than goes in (maybe too trivial) or the panda killing should come out. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I figure the plot would get too long explaining it, so I just removed it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

• Is the Jennifer Love Hewitt mention really necessary? Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

That was snuck in, I removed it. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

All in all, despite these mostly minor issues, the article is in excellent shape. If I've made any comments redundant or contrary to other editors', I apologize, but I'm pulling a TLDR. :) Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 10:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Thanks for your comments, they look like fun! That's great that you found those sources, I'm surprised I missed them. I'll look at addressing these tomorrow as I need to get some sleep. -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 10:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Support - I still hope that the unstruck points get addressed, but I'm satisfied enough to believe that this is A-class material. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 09:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Support. I'm satisfied with the A-Class assessment, though another copy edit would probably be required before it goes to FAC (e.g. the lead has a couple of overlong sentences that could be split). There's also scope for additional trims to the "Plot" section to try to bring it closer to 700 words. But I've no beef with the content. Good work. I'll comment on the inclusion of information on the faux trailers on the article's talk page itself. I don't think a simple content discussion like this could be classed as article instability, and does not present a bar to its promotion. Steve ^{T • C} 13:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Continued support with changes made since I last weighed in. Two points, though... like Steve noted, the "Plot" section could be trimmed; its current word count is 858 words. Secondly, boldface was restored to the "Cast" section, and I think that the bulleted items are too close together to really warrant this kind of highlighting. Other than that, though, you're golden. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 18:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Failed due to lack of comment. Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 19:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Nominator: TaerkastUA ( talk) 19:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because the article has undergone major changes since June 2008. Although it has 3 failed FA nominations, I believe that, due to the extensive changes made, the article now meets the requirements for A-Class, and may eventually become Featured. TaerkastUA ( talk) 19:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Failed due to lack of comment Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 19:27, 12 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Nominator: Classicfilms ( talk) 21:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC) reply

I would like to nominate this article on the important and influential film, Chak De India, currently at GA, for A-Status. Classicfilms ( talk) 21:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Failed Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 19:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Nominator: Wildroot ( talk) 23:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC) reply

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because after doing both a comprehensive and exhaustive rewrite, this article has greatly improved in the span of a couple of weeks. Suggestions would be great. Also, I intend to replace the IMDb citation from the Awards section. I also plan on finish writing the Cast descriptions, even if they aren't required (see 300 (film)#Cast). Wildroot ( talk) 23:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC) reply

The Intro is too long, really pushing hard against the four paragraph limit with really big paragraphs, instead of being a nice comfortable two or three paragraphs. Also it would be good to include some of cast information inline in the plot summary because formatting it as Character Name ([Actor Name]) make it much easier to follow what is happening. None of that would probably stop this from getting A Class but I hope you'll consider making the extra effort to make the article the best it can be. (I'll try and come back and take a look at cleaning it up myself.) -- Horkana ( talk) 05:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC) reply

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Failed Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 19:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC) reply

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because all applicable information for the article in reliable sources has been gathered, cited, and placed into the body of text to round the subject out fully. Article is currently GA across the board, and A-class for the video game and Horror projects already. Kung Fu Man ( talk) 21:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Seeing as how this is already at A-Class status for two other WikiProjects, I'll support this nomination. Wildroot ( talk) 17:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Failed Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 19:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Article is currently at GA-status and has undergone two peer reviews since its creation. I believe that every aspect of the film has been covered to an extent in the article and it is written very well according to Wikipedia standards. I would like to see the article promoted to A-class before perfecting it for its FA nomination, of which it is not too far off. – Dream out loud ( talk) 16:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC) reply

I can't see much that could be improved on, and Dream out Loud has done a fantastic job over the months getting it to this standard. A couple of nitpicky things I'm noticing.

• Setlist: There's quite a bit of whitespace between "All titles written by U2, except "Miss Sarajevo" written by U2 and Brian Eno" and the actual listing. Anyway this can be reduced/removed?
• Editing: The article says "the final film was cut to a length of 85 minutes—seven minutes short of its originally announced run time of 92 minutes." I don't know if it has ever been revealed or not, but I'd certainly be interested in knowing which track was removed if it could be found anywhere.
• Screenings and Release: The article briefly mentions the 3D glasses and how they were polarized differently depending on which format was viewed. It was a while ago, but I seem to recall that this was one of the first (if not the first) films to use 3D glasses that advanced (though I may be wrong on that). If it is true, is there any way to add in another sentence or two regarding this?

Other than that, I can't see anything wrong with it. Great work on a fantastic article, Dream out Loud! MelicansMatkin ( talk) 04:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC) reply

As far as the whitespace goes, I don't see any when I look at the article on my computer, so maybe its just your browser? The film's run time was shortened from 92 minutes to 85 minutes, but I could not find any sources stating which single song was removed, although several songs that were filmed and left out were listed in that section. Polarized 3D glasses have been around for a while, so this wasn't the first movie to implement them, just the first movie to be filmed and screened exclusively in digital 3-D. The glasses used to view the film were the same type of glasses used to view other IMAX 3D or Real D films. – Dream out loud ( talk) 14:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by PC78

A well-researched and well-written article. I can't find much to fault, so the following may seem a bit nitpicky, however....

• "The project was created to experiment with a new type of 3-D film technology..." -- A bit vague; can the lead elaborate a bit more on the "new technology"?
• "The film was praised for its 3-D technology and innovation." -- Sentence is a bit short and seems out of context; praise for the 3-D technology is mentioned again later in the lead, so I think this is unnecessary here.
• "Following its release, U2 3D became the..." -- A bit too wordy; "U2 3D was the..." should suffice.
• "John Modell had a connection with U2..." -- This sentence doesn't sit right with me. Having looked at the original source, might I suggest: "David and John Modell had been involved in the design of what would become the Ravens Stadium at Camden Yards during the 1990s, for which they were interested in using LED display video technology." Also, the article suggests that John Modell toured with U2, but if I'm reading the source right it was actually David Modell.
• "The fourth leg of the tour featured eight shows..." -- Redundant to the previous sentence.
• "During the filming period, one of the cameras was destroyed by water, and the remainder of the cameras were later waterproofed." -- A bit clunky. Again, having looked at the source, might I suggest: "The cameras were all waterproofed after one of them was inadvertantly drenched with water."
• "The film also became the highest grossing documentary to be considered for an Academy Award nomination in 2008" -- Unclear; was it the "highest grossing documentary to be considered for an Academy Award nomination" period or just for the 2008 awards?

I've edited out some of my more trivial concerns, and I don't have the issue with the whitespace mentioned above. I'll wait until my concerns are addressed before commenting futher, but I don't see any real reason why I wouldn't support this nomination. Regards. PC78 ( talk) 20:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I've fixed up the article using most of the suggestions listed above. I feel as if the "waterproofed" sentence is ok, and changing it around to the suggestion listed above messes up the flow of the rest of the sentences in the paragraph. As far as for the Academy Award nomination, I think it's pretty straightforward that the film was the highest grossing just for the year 2008, otherwise it would have been more clear, such as "In 2008, the film also became the highest grossing documentary of all time to be considered for an Academy Award nomination." – Dream out loud ( talk) 14:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I still see a slight issue with those two points, so I'll have another go at trying to resolve them. The "waterproofed" sentence has one too many commas and with the repetition of "cameras" doesn't flow particuarly well. How about: "One camera was destroyed by water during the filming period, which led to the remaining camereas later being waterproofed." For the latter point, "...considered for a nomination at the 81st Academy Awards in 2008" might work better, as well as providing a more specific link. PC78 ( talk) 17:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I've updated the sentences about the waterproofing and about the Oscar noms. – Dream out loud ( talk) 23:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Support promotion to A-Class. Hopefully a few more people will be able to take a look at this. PC78 ( talk) 14:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by Erik

Hello, I used Checklinks to update some URLs in the article. I have two suggestions regarding the article's references. First, if you are interested in cutting down the KB size of the article, you do not need the publisher= for works that already have their own article, such as The New York Times or Variety. (This rationale is from Template:Cite news, where under the "publisher" description, it says, "The company or organization that publishes the news source. Not necessary for major publications like The New York Times, but may add credibility for local papers that are part of a family of publications like The McClatchy Company." My other suggestion is to write out the dates in the references in full since there is no auto-formatting these days. I believe that readers can more quickly read the date when fully written out and not in ISO formatting. May also help to use WP:NBSP for the dates (between month and day). Below are some so-called "nitpicky" suggestions:

• Last two sentences of lead section use "stated" twice; perhaps just use "said" or use better/more varied verbs
• In "Synopsis", is there a better section heading that can be used than "Personnel"? Why not "Musicians"?
• "While waiting to hear from the league, 3ality executives Jon and Peter Shapiro proposed the idea of creating a 3-D concert film, after having produced the 2-D IMAX concert film All Access in 2001." This sentence feels clumsy. Not sure how to rewrite it; any thoughts?
• "As U2 had experimented with video technology in the past, the band was mainly interested in the 3-D film project as a technological experiment rather than to make a profit." The first part of the sentence does not seem to relate to the second part. Can this be clarified or rewritten?
• In the "Filmed concerts" table, the flag icons seem unnecessary to include. Review MOS:FLAG to see if they need placement or not.
• "Instead of directing the band in how to perform, the band indirectly directed the crew as they performed each of the concerts as usual, with the filming crew capturing footage in real-time for 2½ hours during each concert." Who was supposed to direct the band in how to perform? (I assume the crew, but it needs to be said.) Not understanding how "the band indirectly directed the crew" and really recommend a different pairing than "indirectly directed".
• "...since they felt that those songs were out of place with the rest of the film." Who is "they" in this instance?
• "Many of the transitions in the film were justified created by layering several frames of footage on top of one another." "Justified created" is off here, but not clear enough on the technology to fix myself.
• Do we need to link to "U2" again in the "Screenings and releases" section? Seems like they would have been linked enough by this point.
• "pulled from theaters" sounds like something negative happened. Seems from what I have read so far this film was always going to receive a short run. Which is the case?
• I nixed "overwhelmingly positive" as non-neutral wording since Rotten Tomatoes says nothing like that. It's best to present the figures neutrally.
• "even better than the real thing" is not attributed; too many works mentioned before this to know what to reference for attribution

I performed general copy-editing for each section in the article; hopefully the separate copy-edit for each section makes review easier. Most changes are minimal, but I rewrote the Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic sentences in their entirety to provide better clarify to readers, since not all may be familiar with the so-called "Fresh" rating. Please respond to my suggestions above or my copy-editing, both of which I am happy to discuss. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 16:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I copyedited the article based on most of the suggestions listed above, with few exceptions:

• I checked MOS:FLAG and I feel that the flags in the table are appropriate for the article because they are all listed in a table (that isn't an infobox) and do not offset the flow of the rest of the article body.
• The sentence "As U2 had experimented with video technology in the past, the band was mainly interested in the 3-D film project as a technological experiment rather than to make a profit." seems fine to me. It basically states that the film was a video technology-based experiment for the band, and they had experimented with video technology in the past as well.
• The "even better than the real thing" reference is attributed. The point of that sentence is that all 5 of the sources listed said the film was "even better than the real thing" in one way or another.

– Dream out loud ( talk) 17:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

Okay, I'll concede the flag matter. I also slightly rewrote the technological experiment sentence to be clearer. For "even better than the real thing", you are using quotation marks, so there has to be someone to attribute. If you wrote these in your own words to consolidate the reviews' consensus, it should be paraphrased and not explicitly quoted. — Erik ( talk • contrib) 17:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I am also leery of the quote box with the quote from The Edge. It does not belong in the "Critical response" section, and it is a bit on the promotional-sounding side. It is ideal to avoid opinions from those involved with films unless they are specifically illustrative. For example, a director saying, "I think this is the best film I've ever done" vs. "I aimed to explore a combination of so-and-so genres to produce something new" -- which is more substantive, you know? — Erik ( talk • contrib) 18:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC) reply

I don't see any issue with the quote sounding too promotional, though I do agree that it is misplaced in the article. It would seem more appropriate in the "Filming" section, though there isn't much room for it. PC78 ( talk) 18:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by Girolamo Savonarola

• It was also the first live-action film to be shot, produced, and screened exclusively with both 3-D and digital cinema technology - some of the sources clearly indicate that particular shots were filmed in 2D and then turned into virtual 3D.
• surpassing the film's budget - "making it profitable" sounds like awkward.
• The video excerpt seems to me to strongly fail our fair usage guidelines. It is purely illustrative and does not enhance understanding of anything in particular from the article, nor is it an authorized usage from National Geographic, nor is it sourced from anything of decent-enough quality. I would have strong objections to this in FAC as well were it to remain within the article.
• The Focal Point source has extensive technical information within the article, and yet virtually none of this is used. Why? (If you need some "translation", feel free to let me know.)
• they and the team - unclear antecedent
• U2 frontman Bono also expressed interest in the project, and he convinced the other three members of the band to become involved in the project - "in the project" repeated
• Upon completion of the film, U2 3D became the third concert film from the Vertigo Tour - huh? And if so, why is this being mentioned here, instead of in the Release section?
• minus the first show - "with the exception of the first show"
• Similar issues with the first three stills pics as with the video clip, although the "coexista" sign might be acceptable in the Synopsis section. I look at these and think, "that's great that someone was willing to upload their personal photos, but how is any of this directly relevant to the article in particlar, and how is it informative to the subject in a way that the article text isn't?" At the moment, I don't see anything to indicate this.
• The filmed concerts table does not include any information about the filmed "fake concert" - as this was part of the finished film, shouldn't it? You could always include a comment or caption to indicate it was audience-less.
• Carl Zeiss digital zoom lenses - usually referred to as Zeiss, not Carl Zeiss. Also, should not link to digital zoom. Digital zoom is a form of electronic pseudozoom which is used by consumer-based cameras. B4 mount cameras such as the F950 don't have lenses with digital zoom functions, since it severely degrades image quality and the systems can swap out for longer lenses where needed. The lenses this film used were [Zeiss Digital zoom lenses http://www.zeiss.com/C125756900453232/ContentsWWWIntern/8C5E1DDE818D1251C125756F0044B799]. In other words, Zeiss lenses designed for digital camera systems, but with fully optical zoom housings. So the correct linkage would be Zeiss digital zoom lenses, or to be clearer, digital Zeiss zoom lenses.
• which captured video in a 70 mm film format onto HDCAM SR recording decks - I don't even know what this means. You can't capture video in 70 mm film format. If this is referring to the aspect ratio, it's still wrong, since the 70mm format is a 2.20:1 ratio, while IMAX is a 70mm gauge, but has a 1.43:1 aspect ratio. In either case, the ratio would be incompatible with HDCAM SR, which records a 1.78:1 (16:9) ratio.
• requiring the cameras on each rig to be welded together - again, unclear. Welding the cameras to each other, or to the rig? Do they mean "welded" literally, like arc welding, or just as in "intensely secured together"? Welding the cameras together would destroy them - they're not that rugged. Welding them to the rig is possible if you're counting particular accessory plates underneath, but again, this is questionable...
• Five operators - operators or camera crew members? Camera assistants (who deal with focus usually) are not operators usually, and vice versa.
• Owens had little film directing experience, she was involved with every aspect of the film except for the live shoots - again, huh? What exactly did she do, then?
• Editor Olivier Wicki was chosen to work on the post-production of the film, after previously working on U2's "Original of the Species" music video. Wicki worked closely - a bit too much "work"
• Owens sought to have only 14–15 songs out of 26 would appear - grammar
• "Vertigo" was selected to be the opening song. "City of Blinding Lights" was left out of the film though it was the opening song for all nine filmed concerts, as well as most of the concerts throughout the entire Vertigo Tour. - Perhaps better written as Although "City of Blinding Lights" was the opening song for all nine filmed concerts, as well as most of the Vertigo Tour, "Vertigo" was chosen to open the film instead."? Or something to that effect. Feels less perfunctory and staccato.
• 20,000 square foot (1900 square meter) 3-D production facility, which opened prior to the completion of the filming - why is this relevant?
• including the primary software 3action - needs a comma in front of 3action.
• edited into a format - a format? Do you mean a manner?
• The film was captured in a super image resolution of high-definition video, so each frame of the film used nearly 20 megabytes of data - I see nothing in the reference which mentions the resolution. HDCAM SR captures in standard 1080p resolution; large file sizes are comprised of more than just resolution - in HDCAM SR, the 4:4:4 chroma subsampling is the main reason for large file sizes, amongst several factors.
• The entire video editing process took 17 months, and the final film was cut to a length of 85 minutes—seven minutes shorter than the originally announced run time of 92 minutes. - this (along with the prior sentence) makes it appear that the length of the cut had to do with the budget and the editing time. Is this actually the case? Since the length is dictated by the songs, surely the 7 minute difference was able to be determined as soon as they decided what the final setlist was going to be and picture was locked, which generally occurs long before complicated render processes.
• You may also want to contact Hot Gears (www.hotgears.com), as I am aware that they had to design a completely new camera rig (which they subsequently named "the U2") in order to support the weight of the 3D configuration. While I can't find any sources for this online, my guess is that the company has access to several and can assist you in finding them.
• so it coincided with - "in order to coincide with"
• The first week of the film's wide release was the both highest-grossing week of its theatrical run, grossing $1,026,121, averaging $1,500 per theater. - both this and...?
• Three weeks into its wide release, U2 3D was playing in less than 100 theaters internationally. At the time, the film had only grossed $6.6 million, while Disney's Hannah Montana & Miley Cyrus 3-D concert film, still playing in many theaters since its February 1 release, had brought in over $60 million. - And why is this relevant?
• The consensus was that - The site's consensus was - Rotten Tomatoes does not speak for the public at large.
• while the final 85-minute cut - when the final 85-minute cut
• I'm not sure that the Edge's pop-out quote needs to be there. Either summarize in the text (as you already have) or quote in the text directly, but having both is superfluous.
• The month before the film's premiere, the extensive use of technology during production was featured as the cover story in the December 2007 issue of the high-definition video magazine HDVideoPro.[22] The film's usage of evolutionary technology also provoked Catherine Owens to be chosen as one of the featured guest speakers at the SIGGRAPH 2008 conference, which took place several months after the film's initial release - None of this should be in this section; the Siggraph detail is already covered in the article, while a major release being featured in an industry magazine is extremely commonplace and not worthy of mention in and of itself.

On the whole, though, the article looks strong - in essence, I just want to see more attention to particular sources, better usage and application of AV materials (notably in the context of relevance and fair usage requirements), tighter copy editing, and more accurate technical description. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing this continue to improve! Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 22:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC) reply

Thanks for all your input. I will definitely go through the article and touch it up based on your suggestions. I haven't had too much free time to work on Wikipedia lately, but I will work on it when I get a chance. Obviously, there is still work that needs to be done before FA-status, but is the article (in its current state) worthy of an A-class rating? – Dream out loud ( talk) 01:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC) reply

No. I expect comments to be acted on in some manner or another, not just heard. The fair use issues alone will quickly disqualify a support on my part without some compelling course of their being addressed. If you disagree with some of the comments, please feel free to explain why, but otherwise, I'm going to need more than just a confirmation of receipt. Sorry, Girolamo Savonarola ( talk) 01:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC) reply

Ok, I've finally gotten around to going through the article and making changes based on your suggestions. I agreed with most of them, and have comments to make about a few:

• I feel as if the video clip does fall under fair use guidelines. Yes, it is of low quality, but all non-free content should be of low resolution anyway. I think that the video falls under the all the necessary criteria at WP:NFCC. It illustrates the article to give the reader an idea of the film's appearance and style in which is was shot; just the same way that a song article has a clip of the song, this film article has a brief clip of the film.
• The Focal Point source does have lots of technical information, but I don't know how to implement that into the article. I was hoping to get some assistance from someone at the Film Wikiproject to assist with that.
• The two images in the filming section were included as they show both the concert and the filming taking place, with cameras clearly visible in each image.
• The "fake concert" or "phantom shoot" purposely was not included in the table of concerts shot as it wasn't a "real concert".
• I haven't read any sources stating that the final run time being shorter than intitally announced had anything to do with budget or time. I couldn't find any sources stating why the times were different.
• I didn't find any information on Hot Gears' camera rig and I feel that even if they did send me information via email or something, I would not be able to cite it properly.
• The Hannah Montana concert film's gross is relevant because its inital extended release delayed the release of this film. I thought it would also be good to compare to the grosses of two 3-D concert films released at the same time in theaters, since there aren't too many 3-D films in existance.
• I think The Edge's pop-out quote fits in nicely because it expresses his feelings and emotions about shooting the last few concerts, and that his emotions would not have the same effect if they were simply rewritten into a summary sentence. Despite this, several other editors do seem to disagree with me on this, but I'm open to suggestions for any other type of quote that would fit in that section.
• I think that the film's appearnce on the cover of a magazine is relevant because the main article in that issue was all about the movie's technology and filming, as opposed to just featuring a review of some sort. I also included the SIGGRAPH info again to note how Catherine Owens was chosen to speak because of her work done with the film and its technology. The previous mention of the SIGGRAPH conference was to simply mention that it was screened there, but did not mention why she was chosen as the speaker.

These are just my opinions about the article and I'm sure there will be some disagreements on some and I hope that we can come to some sort of consensus on it to be able to promote this to A-Class, and eventually FA-Class. – Dream out loud ( talk) 19:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: uKER ( talk) 05:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC) reply

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because after some time since the movie came out, the article has achieved a certain state of maturity which I think entitles it for A-class status. uKER ( talk) 05:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nominator: TaerkastUA ( talk) 18:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC) reply

I am renominating this article for A-Class review because it failed the first time due to lack of comment. I believe the article meets the requirements because has undergone major changes since June 2008, and continues to improve. Although it has 3 failed FA nominations, I believe that, due to the extensive changes made, the article now meets the requirements for A-Class, and may eventually become Featured. -- TaerkastUA ( talk) 18:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Comments by Andrzejbanas

• In the lead, "...story, characters, and graphic content,[8] But it became a strong...". the "But" shouldn't be capitalized.
• "Slasher-film" should be changed to "Slasher film" just for consistency with the article.
• In the production section where the film explains other films influenced by Gein, seems to stray from the topic of The Texas chain Saw Massacre's production. I'm not sure if this section's appropriate.

*In the third paragraph in Development, discussion turns to "Midway through the editing process". This seems to flow better structurally, but I'm not sure if it's under the appropriate heading. *"The company folded in 1976". Perhaps stating the company's name is better here. In this paragraph, a lot of names are being tossed around and it's a bit hard to figure which is correct. *"The blood depicted was sometimes real.[35]" Perhaps information about this should be moved closer to the information about the stage blood and the person cutting their finger. Even though it's stated, this is kind of a vague statement that does not really suggest much. Was the "real blood" just the blood from the finger? Or was it more? I'd remove this actually. This also goes for "The crew covered the walls of the house with splats of dried blood to give the house an authentic look." So is this the real blood or the fake blood? The sentence suggests it's real but I'm just double-checking. * "Until 1976, when the contract with Bryanston expired, the film was double-billed with "another film they'd [Bryanston] bought for twenty bucks." so who said this? when? More information would be appreciated. *That temperature information in the filming section seems to need a cite. Is it part of the same cite as the camera information? I'd toss in a few more cites there. *"The film was banned or delayed in many countries, and where it was released, it was frequently re-edited." This sentence only follows up with the information about the UK and Australian releases. Is there any other information about other countries as well? Otherwise, it should only describe Australia and the United Kingdom as that's the only countries that are discussed. *"It was selected for the 1975 Cannes Film Festival Directors' Fortnight, though the viewing was delayed due to a bomb scare,[55] and it won the Grand Prize at the Avoriaz Film Festival in 1976." Perhaps these sentences should be separated in two. Maybe a sliver more information about what and where the Avoriaz Film Festival is held? To my knowledge it's a fantastique film festival in France. That could be expanded a pinch.

• MOS:FILM#Critics suggests that for older films reviews should be organized to show the initial reception and then to show more modern reception. It's hard to tell for an average reader what review was based on the film's original release and what is the later reception. This whole section could use a re-balancing.

* If that Variety citation's original date is to be believed, then Variety somehow managed to watch the film before it was released. I'd remove that, several reviews on Variety's website state incorrect dates claiming several reviews to be written on New Year's Day.

• I wouldn't trust the Ebert one as well which also states the January 1 date.

* "In a 2005 poll conducted by Total Film, The Texas Chain Saw Massacre topped the list as the greatest horror film of all time, beating John Carpenter's Halloween and William Friedkin's The Exorcist (1973)." Does it really matter that it beat those two others? That seems rather insignifigant as it also beat out 48 other films as well. *That rotten tomatoes cite should say "film" instead of movie. It doesn't really explain what rotten tomatoes is to a non-average reviewer and I'd either incorporate this cite earlier or remove it entirely. *"The film was again banned in the United Kingdom in 1984, during the moral panic surrounding video nasties". This needs a citation, the citation it is followed by lacks any information about video nasties. * "and, due to the controversy surrounding the film" that cite says nothing about why it was released in the UK at that date. * Citation 82 seems to need to be updated. * Citation 89 could use a page number.

I added the url instead.-- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 12:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC) reply

* "Comedian Patton Oswalt refers to the title as "The Greatest Movie Title Ever", because it perfectly describes the movie.". I like Oswalt but he doesn't have much relation with the film or the genre so I don't think his statement is very important.

• Several inconsistencies with style happen throughout the article. Often we have the magazine stating something while other times we have Authors of articles (with no magazine or publication stated) describing the situation. Try to keep it more clear like with this opening phrase in "Scott Von Doviak of Hick Flicks said..."

* That Total Film poll does not need to be brought up twice. Constantly using it to state that it's "generally considered" one of the greatest horror films of all time might be a jump too. Just because Total Film does, doesn't mean other critics do as well. * Citation 100 and 104 do not seem to state what they are citing. In fact if citation 100 calls the Texas chainsaw massacre game and action game while the article calls it an horror game.

The game is a horror-based action game, not purely a horror game. The article states that.-- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 12:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC) reply

* What makes Icons of Fright a valid source? * Citation 108 seems to be citing a messageboard which I don't believe is a good source. Could you explain how this is a valid source?

Although it is a messageboard, the actual website does have news related to comics. Also, the press release does seem genuine.-- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 12:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC) reply

• I'm not sure that the comic book database is a good source as like imdb, it seems to be user generated rather then expert information.

* "In the movie, R. A. Mihailoff starred as Leatherface." is this really important? Also, it's uncited and say "film" rather then movie. * " The film was a semi-remake of the original, although it was originally intended to be a complete remake of the first film.". This needs a citation. The review in the guide suggests it was, but doesn't explain it further.

• I'm not sure if reviews in the "Sequels" section should critique those films on their own merit. Quotations should be used to see what relation they have to the original film and how critics felt it compared.

*The ALT tag in the infobox could go into more detail about the poster. Check out Spider-man 3 for example. Half this poster is large text so that could be noted as that information can not be read by the blind with any tools.

Done.-- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 10:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC) reply

*per WP:LEADCITE, we don't need those extra citations in the intro paragraph. Several of those statements match up with information that is already cited in the article below. *per Wikipedia:Words to avoid, we see a lot of however's in this article suggesting one alternative is better or worse over another. These should be re-phrased to have the article in a Neutral point of view.

Removed and rephrased some of the howevers. -- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 10:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC) reply

*per Wikipedia:MOS#Brackets_and_parentheses we should not have sentences that follow up with phrases like "(It was overtaken by John Carpenter's Halloween (1978), which grossed $47 million at the box office upon release.[54])". It doesn't need to be in brackets.

Okay I'm a bit exhausted! That's all for now. After these things are addressed I will continue the review. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 14:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC) reply

Okay, I've started taking care of some of the problems. I know there is more to be sorted out, which I'll take care of later. Unfortunately, with me being the only main editor, this article will most likely never see A-class status, much less FA. I've requested help, but I do seem to be the only one consistantly editing. I've also put in a request for copyediting. -- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 18:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC) reply

I think I've taken care of most of the problems. I'm not sure about the Ebert and Variety references, I don't know when critics see the films. For citation 111, although it's a messageboard, it shows a press release, but you could be right about it. I will probably remove the Icons of Fright source when I get round to it. Thanks, -- TaerkastUA ( Talk) 17:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC) reply

Keep up the good work! After a good majority of the items are crossed out, I'll look over it again to see if there's anything else I missed. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 01:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.