 | Points of interest related to
Archaeology on Wikipedia: Category – WikiProject – Alerts – Deletions – Cleanup – Stubs – Assessment |
This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Archaeology. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.
- Adding a new AfD discussion
- Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at
WP:AFD. Similarly, removing an AfD from this page does not remove it from the main page at
WP:AFD. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:
- Edit this page and add {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PageName}} to the top of the list. Replace "PageName" with the relevant article name, i.e. the one on the existing AFD discussion. Also, indicate the title of the article in the edit summary as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
- You should also tag the AfD by adding {{subst:delsort|Archaeology|~~~~}} to it, which will inform editors that it has been listed here. You may place this tag above or below the nomination statement or at the end of the discussion thread.
- There are a few scripts and tools that can make this easier.
- Removing a closed AfD discussion
- Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by a bot.
- Other types of discussions
- You can also add and remove other discussions ( prod, CfD, TfD etc.) related to Archaeology. For the other XfD's, the process is the same as AfD (except {{Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName}} is used for MFD and {{ transclude xfd}} for the rest). For PRODs, adding a link with {{ prodded}} will suffice.
- Further information
- For further information see Wikipedia's deletion policy and WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.
Archived discussions (starting from August 2016) may be found at:| watch |
Dacian fortress of Ponor
- Dacian fortress of Ponor ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Ridiculously short article that fails WP:GNG and WP:NPLACE. No hits of reliable sources on google books or search. No article in Romanian is a bad sign. Template:Dacian cities lists dozens of these ultra stubs, but I won't do anything with them until we see just one. -1ctinus📝 🗨 16:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
-
ro:Cetățile Ponorului is the Romanian-language article (or, at least, the only plausibly-notable topic of a similar name).
Walsh90210 (
talk)
17:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That may be a step towards salvaging the article, but the Romanian article also cites no sources, andseems to be about a cave rather than a fortress :(
-1ctinus📝
🗨
17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the "cave"/"ruined fortress" difference is somewhat concerning; but for a micro-stub like this it is easily dismissed as confusion by the enwiki article creator. As far as rowiki sourcing, there are some websites in the article (like [1]); it might not be enough to demonstrate notability but is enough to verify that something exists. Walsh90210 ( talk) 17:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That may be a step towards salvaging the article, but the Romanian article also cites no sources, andseems to be about a cave rather than a fortress :(
-1ctinus📝
🗨
17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Archaeology, Geography, and Romania. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- delete without prejudice against recreation of a sourced version. It' shouldn't be AfD's job to research and write these articles; it should be the author's job. We are not losing anything by deleting these completely unverifiable articles, and we waste too much time on these. Mangoe ( talk) 21:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Kade Ferris
AfDs for this article:
- Kade Ferris ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I believe this article should be deleted because it clearly fails WP:NOTE. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 11:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators and Archaeology. Shellwood ( talk) 11:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- The cited sources are a bit thin but I wouldn't say it's 'clear' either way. Did you
look for sources? The article lists several books authored by the subject, did you look for reviews per
WP:NAUTHOR? –
Joe (
talk)
13:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I can't find anything to meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines. I still stand by deleting this article. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 16:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nope this article fails notability guidelines for authors too. It seems this page was made by friends of the article's subject.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- What makes you think it was made by friends of the subject? Belbury ( talk) 08:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. His books appear to be self-published but that would be ok if there were reliably published reviews of them. I couldn't find any. The sources in the article now include a book review, but of someone else's book and mentioning Ferris only in passing. The only in-depth source that we have is a local-news obituary, appearing to be a family-written obituary rather than a work of independent journalism. That's not enough. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
17:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Kade Ferris is the author. Charles Albert Bender =
Chief Bender and is the subject of the biography. There are other reviews of that book too. Anyway I'm leaning keep.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Chief Bender meets notability guidelines for his sports career while Ferris does not meet any Wikipedia notability guidelines. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 00:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are you telling me that the book Métis and the Medicine Line: Creating a Border and Dividing a People, with the author listed as Michel Hogue on the cover, is really by Kade Ferris? Because that is the book whose review I was referring to. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
00:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Right. I clocked that the first time I read your comment, but the second time I read it, I read it the other way. I can add the other book reviews (of his book) and also quote from at least one other book I found.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- This article still seems to fail WP:NTEMP and WP:SUSTAINED OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 16:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Right. I clocked that the first time I read your comment, but the second time I read it, I read it the other way. I can add the other book reviews (of his book) and also quote from at least one other book I found.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Kade Ferris is the author. Charles Albert Bender =
Chief Bender and is the subject of the biography. There are other reviews of that book too. Anyway I'm leaning keep.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Minnesota, and North Dakota. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I see that the review in American Indian Children's Literature got removed from the article as a source. I am adding it back. While the site itself could be construed as a blog, the reason this particular blog qualifies as a reliable source per
WP:BLOGS, is that it is produced by
Debbie Reese, who is
an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications
. Cielquiparle ( talk) 05:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC) - Keep - I expanded it to include more about the impact of his tribal history preservation work and the impact that has on reservations, ND and MN educational standards and added information about his mapping skills.
oncamera
(talk page)
08:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't see how this article ceases to fail
WP:NOTE
WP:NTEMP and
WP:SUSTAINED.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- His written work as an author and oral traditions that he embedded within his maps, blogs, and recorded videos for the state of North Dakota established notability. He was a respected tribal historian and elder knowledge keeper and professional work reflects that.
oncamera
(talk page)
21:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article has now been puffed up with some 30 footnotes, most of which do not seem to be the sort of in-depth independent and reliably-published coverage of the subject that could be used to pass
WP:GNG. Of the ones that actually mention Ferris or his works in their title, "Kade Ferris's Gift" is an interview (not usually counted as independent), the Red Lake Nation News obituary reads like a family-written obituary (not independent), the Mendoza book review is in a blog (not reliably published), Teachings of Our Elders is by him not about him, and Archaeologist presents has no depth of coverage of Ferris. Perhaps, per
WP:THREE, advocates of keeping the article could save us the effort of similarly evaluating all 30 of the footnotes and point us to three sources that are actually in-depth, independent, and reliably-published? I'm looking for a small number of high-quality sources, at most three, not many low-quality sources. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
23:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it would be helpful to hear the three best sources. It seems like notability is marginal at best and it's hard to see through all the passing coverage. – Joe ( talk) 08:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article has now been puffed up with some 30 footnotes, most of which do not seem to be the sort of in-depth independent and reliably-published coverage of the subject that could be used to pass
WP:GNG. Of the ones that actually mention Ferris or his works in their title, "Kade Ferris's Gift" is an interview (not usually counted as independent), the Red Lake Nation News obituary reads like a family-written obituary (not independent), the Mendoza book review is in a blog (not reliably published), Teachings of Our Elders is by him not about him, and Archaeologist presents has no depth of coverage of Ferris. Perhaps, per
WP:THREE, advocates of keeping the article could save us the effort of similarly evaluating all 30 of the footnotes and point us to three sources that are actually in-depth, independent, and reliably-published? I'm looking for a small number of high-quality sources, at most three, not many low-quality sources. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
23:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- His written work as an author and oral traditions that he embedded within his maps, blogs, and recorded videos for the state of North Dakota established notability. He was a respected tribal historian and elder knowledge keeper and professional work reflects that.
oncamera
(talk page)
21:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't see how this article ceases to fail
WP:NOTE
WP:NTEMP and
WP:SUSTAINED.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong keep. This article was already extremely well cited, but I added an infobox and a little bit more. His notability stems from his tribal historic preservation work which is interdisciplinary (history, anthropology, archaeology, policy making, language advocacy, etc.)
Yuchitown (
talk)
16:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please address the discussion above about lack of high-quality sourcing, rather than merely asserting that "This article was already extremely well cited" when clearly it isn't? It has many sources but that misses the point. We need a small number of high-quality sources, and continuing to add larger numbers of low-quality sources only makes notability harder to discern by hiding the good sources in a big pile of dross. It would be better to remove both the low-quality sources and the material sourced to them so that we can focus on the essentials. The sources you added (his own dissertation and a web page about someone else that mentions him in passing) do not contribute to notability according to Wikipedia's standards for notability, which are not based on the work the subject might have done but rather on the depth of coverage of the subject in sources that are independent of him and meet
Wikipedia's standards for reliable publication. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the suggestion that tribal newspapers are "low-quality sources." Like I wrote, his notability is based on being a
THPO, so it's interdisciplinary. He was not just a writer. While several pieces (Red Lake Nation News, Minnesota Native News) focus on him specifically, even if these didn't exist,
Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the
Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tribal newspapers are as reliable as any other newspaper. But when a local newspaper (tribal or not) runs an obituary that reads like the sort of obituary written by a family member to announce a death, rather than the kind of obituary that major newspapers write themselves when famous people die, it doesn't count much towards notability. For one thing, if it is indeed written by family, it is not an independent source. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
06:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- .... even if these didn't exist, Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
13:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- So much a part of the enduring historical record that the only Wikilink to him from any other article is a an unsourced sentence about him in an article about
a village in Lebanon, stating that he is also of Lebanese descent, something that appears nowhere in the
Kade Ferris article itself? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- If that's an issue to you, you can help expand topics on Turtle Mountain, the Ojibwe or Metis history and credit/wikilink his article from those edits. Wikipedia needs more editors in that area.
oncamera
(talk page)
10:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely think the Métis have an interesting history that deserves to be better-known, but I have no special expertise in that area, and I have even less knowledge of Turtle Mountain or the Ojibwe.
- If that's an issue to you, you can help expand topics on Turtle Mountain, the Ojibwe or Metis history and credit/wikilink his article from those edits. Wikipedia needs more editors in that area.
oncamera
(talk page)
10:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- So much a part of the enduring historical record that the only Wikilink to him from any other article is a an unsourced sentence about him in an article about
a village in Lebanon, stating that he is also of Lebanese descent, something that appears nowhere in the
Kade Ferris article itself? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- .... even if these didn't exist, Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
13:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tribal newspapers are as reliable as any other newspaper. But when a local newspaper (tribal or not) runs an obituary that reads like the sort of obituary written by a family member to announce a death, rather than the kind of obituary that major newspapers write themselves when famous people die, it doesn't count much towards notability. For one thing, if it is indeed written by family, it is not an independent source. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
06:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the suggestion that tribal newspapers are "low-quality sources." Like I wrote, his notability is based on being a
THPO, so it's interdisciplinary. He was not just a writer. While several pieces (Red Lake Nation News, Minnesota Native News) focus on him specifically, even if these didn't exist,
Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the
Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please address the discussion above about lack of high-quality sourcing, rather than merely asserting that "This article was already extremely well cited" when clearly it isn't? It has many sources but that misses the point. We need a small number of high-quality sources, and continuing to add larger numbers of low-quality sources only makes notability harder to discern by hiding the good sources in a big pile of dross. It would be better to remove both the low-quality sources and the material sourced to them so that we can focus on the essentials. The sources you added (his own dissertation and a web page about someone else that mentions him in passing) do not contribute to notability according to Wikipedia's standards for notability, which are not based on the work the subject might have done but rather on the depth of coverage of the subject in sources that are independent of him and meet
Wikipedia's standards for reliable publication. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I can find no evidence that Kade Ferris had any connection to Lebanon, outside of a few unreliable web sources. I have removed the link to him from the Lebanese village article. His mother was from Minnesota and his father was originally from the Turtle Mountain Reservation. I suspect his father, Albert Ferris, may have some notability as an artist. — David Eppstein ( talk) 19:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - I just came across this AfD and don't entirely feel experienced enough with guidelines to vote either way, but I'd like to note that Ferris' work on map decolonization and geographic technologies (as THPO for the Red Lake Nation) was significant enough that he gave a full-fledged presentation at the Council for Minnesota Archaeology's 2023 annual conference, entitled "Creating a Virtual Database for Regional Tribal Resource Management and Consultation". I don't know if, for example, a program (with an abstract of his talk) from the conference (the most important one on Minnesota archaeology, as far as I know) would count towards GNG, but I do have such a document if uploading it somewhere could prove useful. Thanks. SunTunnels ( talk) 21:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
| Points of interest related to
Archaeology on Wikipedia: Category – WikiProject – Alerts – Deletions – Cleanup – Stubs – Assessment |
This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Archaeology. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.
- Adding a new AfD discussion
- Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at
WP:AFD. Similarly, removing an AfD from this page does not remove it from the main page at
WP:AFD. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:
- Edit this page and add {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PageName}} to the top of the list. Replace "PageName" with the relevant article name, i.e. the one on the existing AFD discussion. Also, indicate the title of the article in the edit summary as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
- You should also tag the AfD by adding {{subst:delsort|Archaeology|~~~~}} to it, which will inform editors that it has been listed here. You may place this tag above or below the nomination statement or at the end of the discussion thread.
- There are a few scripts and tools that can make this easier.
- Removing a closed AfD discussion
- Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by a bot.
- Other types of discussions
- You can also add and remove other discussions ( prod, CfD, TfD etc.) related to Archaeology. For the other XfD's, the process is the same as AfD (except {{Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName}} is used for MFD and {{ transclude xfd}} for the rest). For PRODs, adding a link with {{ prodded}} will suffice.
- Further information
- For further information see Wikipedia's deletion policy and WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.
Archived discussions (starting from August 2016) may be found at:| watch |
Dacian fortress of Ponor
- Dacian fortress of Ponor ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Ridiculously short article that fails WP:GNG and WP:NPLACE. No hits of reliable sources on google books or search. No article in Romanian is a bad sign. Template:Dacian cities lists dozens of these ultra stubs, but I won't do anything with them until we see just one. -1ctinus📝 🗨 16:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
-
ro:Cetățile Ponorului is the Romanian-language article (or, at least, the only plausibly-notable topic of a similar name).
Walsh90210 (
talk)
17:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That may be a step towards salvaging the article, but the Romanian article also cites no sources, andseems to be about a cave rather than a fortress :(
-1ctinus📝
🗨
17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the "cave"/"ruined fortress" difference is somewhat concerning; but for a micro-stub like this it is easily dismissed as confusion by the enwiki article creator. As far as rowiki sourcing, there are some websites in the article (like [1]); it might not be enough to demonstrate notability but is enough to verify that something exists. Walsh90210 ( talk) 17:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- That may be a step towards salvaging the article, but the Romanian article also cites no sources, andseems to be about a cave rather than a fortress :(
-1ctinus📝
🗨
17:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Archaeology, Geography, and Romania. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- delete without prejudice against recreation of a sourced version. It' shouldn't be AfD's job to research and write these articles; it should be the author's job. We are not losing anything by deleting these completely unverifiable articles, and we waste too much time on these. Mangoe ( talk) 21:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Kade Ferris
AfDs for this article:
- Kade Ferris ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I believe this article should be deleted because it clearly fails WP:NOTE. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 11:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators and Archaeology. Shellwood ( talk) 11:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- The cited sources are a bit thin but I wouldn't say it's 'clear' either way. Did you
look for sources? The article lists several books authored by the subject, did you look for reviews per
WP:NAUTHOR? –
Joe (
talk)
13:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I can't find anything to meet the Wikipedia notability guidelines. I still stand by deleting this article. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 16:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nope this article fails notability guidelines for authors too. It seems this page was made by friends of the article's subject.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- What makes you think it was made by friends of the subject? Belbury ( talk) 08:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. His books appear to be self-published but that would be ok if there were reliably published reviews of them. I couldn't find any. The sources in the article now include a book review, but of someone else's book and mentioning Ferris only in passing. The only in-depth source that we have is a local-news obituary, appearing to be a family-written obituary rather than a work of independent journalism. That's not enough. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
17:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Kade Ferris is the author. Charles Albert Bender =
Chief Bender and is the subject of the biography. There are other reviews of that book too. Anyway I'm leaning keep.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Chief Bender meets notability guidelines for his sports career while Ferris does not meet any Wikipedia notability guidelines. OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 00:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are you telling me that the book Métis and the Medicine Line: Creating a Border and Dividing a People, with the author listed as Michel Hogue on the cover, is really by Kade Ferris? Because that is the book whose review I was referring to. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
00:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Right. I clocked that the first time I read your comment, but the second time I read it, I read it the other way. I can add the other book reviews (of his book) and also quote from at least one other book I found.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- This article still seems to fail WP:NTEMP and WP:SUSTAINED OldDiddlyBop ( talk) 16:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Right. I clocked that the first time I read your comment, but the second time I read it, I read it the other way. I can add the other book reviews (of his book) and also quote from at least one other book I found.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @
David Eppstein Kade Ferris is the author. Charles Albert Bender =
Chief Bender and is the subject of the biography. There are other reviews of that book too. Anyway I'm leaning keep.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
22:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Minnesota, and North Dakota. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I see that the review in American Indian Children's Literature got removed from the article as a source. I am adding it back. While the site itself could be construed as a blog, the reason this particular blog qualifies as a reliable source per
WP:BLOGS, is that it is produced by
Debbie Reese, who is
an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications
. Cielquiparle ( talk) 05:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC) - Keep - I expanded it to include more about the impact of his tribal history preservation work and the impact that has on reservations, ND and MN educational standards and added information about his mapping skills.
oncamera
(talk page)
08:59, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't see how this article ceases to fail
WP:NOTE
WP:NTEMP and
WP:SUSTAINED.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- His written work as an author and oral traditions that he embedded within his maps, blogs, and recorded videos for the state of North Dakota established notability. He was a respected tribal historian and elder knowledge keeper and professional work reflects that.
oncamera
(talk page)
21:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article has now been puffed up with some 30 footnotes, most of which do not seem to be the sort of in-depth independent and reliably-published coverage of the subject that could be used to pass
WP:GNG. Of the ones that actually mention Ferris or his works in their title, "Kade Ferris's Gift" is an interview (not usually counted as independent), the Red Lake Nation News obituary reads like a family-written obituary (not independent), the Mendoza book review is in a blog (not reliably published), Teachings of Our Elders is by him not about him, and Archaeologist presents has no depth of coverage of Ferris. Perhaps, per
WP:THREE, advocates of keeping the article could save us the effort of similarly evaluating all 30 of the footnotes and point us to three sources that are actually in-depth, independent, and reliably-published? I'm looking for a small number of high-quality sources, at most three, not many low-quality sources. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
23:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it would be helpful to hear the three best sources. It seems like notability is marginal at best and it's hard to see through all the passing coverage. – Joe ( talk) 08:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article has now been puffed up with some 30 footnotes, most of which do not seem to be the sort of in-depth independent and reliably-published coverage of the subject that could be used to pass
WP:GNG. Of the ones that actually mention Ferris or his works in their title, "Kade Ferris's Gift" is an interview (not usually counted as independent), the Red Lake Nation News obituary reads like a family-written obituary (not independent), the Mendoza book review is in a blog (not reliably published), Teachings of Our Elders is by him not about him, and Archaeologist presents has no depth of coverage of Ferris. Perhaps, per
WP:THREE, advocates of keeping the article could save us the effort of similarly evaluating all 30 of the footnotes and point us to three sources that are actually in-depth, independent, and reliably-published? I'm looking for a small number of high-quality sources, at most three, not many low-quality sources. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
23:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- His written work as an author and oral traditions that he embedded within his maps, blogs, and recorded videos for the state of North Dakota established notability. He was a respected tribal historian and elder knowledge keeper and professional work reflects that.
oncamera
(talk page)
21:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I still don't see how this article ceases to fail
WP:NOTE
WP:NTEMP and
WP:SUSTAINED.
OldDiddlyBop (
talk)
16:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong keep. This article was already extremely well cited, but I added an infobox and a little bit more. His notability stems from his tribal historic preservation work which is interdisciplinary (history, anthropology, archaeology, policy making, language advocacy, etc.)
Yuchitown (
talk)
16:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please address the discussion above about lack of high-quality sourcing, rather than merely asserting that "This article was already extremely well cited" when clearly it isn't? It has many sources but that misses the point. We need a small number of high-quality sources, and continuing to add larger numbers of low-quality sources only makes notability harder to discern by hiding the good sources in a big pile of dross. It would be better to remove both the low-quality sources and the material sourced to them so that we can focus on the essentials. The sources you added (his own dissertation and a web page about someone else that mentions him in passing) do not contribute to notability according to Wikipedia's standards for notability, which are not based on the work the subject might have done but rather on the depth of coverage of the subject in sources that are independent of him and meet
Wikipedia's standards for reliable publication. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the suggestion that tribal newspapers are "low-quality sources." Like I wrote, his notability is based on being a
THPO, so it's interdisciplinary. He was not just a writer. While several pieces (Red Lake Nation News, Minnesota Native News) focus on him specifically, even if these didn't exist,
Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the
Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tribal newspapers are as reliable as any other newspaper. But when a local newspaper (tribal or not) runs an obituary that reads like the sort of obituary written by a family member to announce a death, rather than the kind of obituary that major newspapers write themselves when famous people die, it doesn't count much towards notability. For one thing, if it is indeed written by family, it is not an independent source. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
06:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- .... even if these didn't exist, Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
13:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- So much a part of the enduring historical record that the only Wikilink to him from any other article is a an unsourced sentence about him in an article about
a village in Lebanon, stating that he is also of Lebanese descent, something that appears nowhere in the
Kade Ferris article itself? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- If that's an issue to you, you can help expand topics on Turtle Mountain, the Ojibwe or Metis history and credit/wikilink his article from those edits. Wikipedia needs more editors in that area.
oncamera
(talk page)
10:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely think the Métis have an interesting history that deserves to be better-known, but I have no special expertise in that area, and I have even less knowledge of Turtle Mountain or the Ojibwe.
- If that's an issue to you, you can help expand topics on Turtle Mountain, the Ojibwe or Metis history and credit/wikilink his article from those edits. Wikipedia needs more editors in that area.
oncamera
(talk page)
10:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- So much a part of the enduring historical record that the only Wikilink to him from any other article is a an unsourced sentence about him in an article about
a village in Lebanon, stating that he is also of Lebanese descent, something that appears nowhere in the
Kade Ferris article itself? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- .... even if these didn't exist, Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
13:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tribal newspapers are as reliable as any other newspaper. But when a local newspaper (tribal or not) runs an obituary that reads like the sort of obituary written by a family member to announce a death, rather than the kind of obituary that major newspapers write themselves when famous people die, it doesn't count much towards notability. For one thing, if it is indeed written by family, it is not an independent source. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
06:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the suggestion that tribal newspapers are "low-quality sources." Like I wrote, his notability is based on being a
THPO, so it's interdisciplinary. He was not just a writer. While several pieces (Red Lake Nation News, Minnesota Native News) focus on him specifically, even if these didn't exist,
Wikipedia:Notability (people) states: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability. He has contributed "part of the enduring historical record" of the
Métis people.
Yuchitown (
talk)
02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please address the discussion above about lack of high-quality sourcing, rather than merely asserting that "This article was already extremely well cited" when clearly it isn't? It has many sources but that misses the point. We need a small number of high-quality sources, and continuing to add larger numbers of low-quality sources only makes notability harder to discern by hiding the good sources in a big pile of dross. It would be better to remove both the low-quality sources and the material sourced to them so that we can focus on the essentials. The sources you added (his own dissertation and a web page about someone else that mentions him in passing) do not contribute to notability according to Wikipedia's standards for notability, which are not based on the work the subject might have done but rather on the depth of coverage of the subject in sources that are independent of him and meet
Wikipedia's standards for reliable publication. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I can find no evidence that Kade Ferris had any connection to Lebanon, outside of a few unreliable web sources. I have removed the link to him from the Lebanese village article. His mother was from Minnesota and his father was originally from the Turtle Mountain Reservation. I suspect his father, Albert Ferris, may have some notability as an artist. — David Eppstein ( talk) 19:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - I just came across this AfD and don't entirely feel experienced enough with guidelines to vote either way, but I'd like to note that Ferris' work on map decolonization and geographic technologies (as THPO for the Red Lake Nation) was significant enough that he gave a full-fledged presentation at the Council for Minnesota Archaeology's 2023 annual conference, entitled "Creating a Virtual Database for Regional Tribal Resource Management and Consultation". I don't know if, for example, a program (with an abstract of his talk) from the conference (the most important one on Minnesota archaeology, as far as I know) would count towards GNG, but I do have such a document if uploading it somewhere could prove useful. Thanks. SunTunnels ( talk) 21:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)