The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was Nom Withdrawn - Good enough for me, if anyone objects we can reopen it.
Crossmr 22:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Template:Fact(
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs) Delete This template is the equivalent of an editor's markup on a rough draft. It litters many otherwise good articles on Wikipedia with ugly, unprofessional looking clutter that only serves to highlight the articles' defects to non-editors. No real encyclopedia would go to press with marks like this left in its articles. This is the type of thing that belongs on an article's talk page, not in the article itself. Template:fact should be deleted and instances of its use should be replaced with appropriate discussions on the talk pages of the articles where it is used.
dryguy 17:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Withdrawn I withdraw the nomination. There. Does that do it?
dryguy 22:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: This template is currently represented on over 18,000 pages.
Netscott 21:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The {{
Tfd-inline}} emulation was added by
Netscott later, now it shows up with all affected citations, therefore I change my comment to speedy keep. --
Omniplex 21:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Just for clarity here, I did
my best to keep the TfD message as unobtrusive
as possible.
Netscott 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Absolutely. This monstrous graffiti should be deleted. If a factual statement is in serious doubt, it should be discussed, and if significant removed during discussion. Just popping a tag on the article simply disfigured the article for no good reason. --
Tony Sidaway 18:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Wikipedia is a work in progress; the project as a whole is a rough draft. By hiding our "defects" we make them more difficult to correct. We don't compose articles in a dark room, then "go to press" with them, and we aren't professionals to begin with. We're amateur writers, some of us
fail at the actual craft of prose and wander in search of other ways to contribute, eventually becoming administrators. You say "non-editors" as if you are referring to a certain, higher class of people expecting more from us than we do of ourselves. On the contrary, the only people I'd like to see remain "non-editors" are the ones found
here, whose opinions no longer mean shit to us, if ever they did. If you think adding optional parameters for a link to a relevant talk page section would improve this template, go ahead and do so. If you think it looks unprofessional, change its appearance. If this nomination is your reaction to this template being inserted in an article you wrote (no, I haven't checked), then provide a citation in its place, so you won't have to see it anymore. — Jul. 1, '06[18:40] <freak|
talk>
Comment By non-editor, I mean anyone reading an article without the intent to edit it at the moment - even if the person is a regular Wikipedia editor otherwise. The fact template adds a lot of darned distracting clutter that frustrates many readers. Some articles have tens of instances of the fact template, which is not something I am regularly willing to change on the fly when I'm here reading. If I'm here editing, you bet I'll add the citations where I am able.
dryguy 18:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The solution is not to sweep the problem under the rug. The solution is to draw a circle around using day-glow orange chalk in hopes of catching the attention of somebody who does have the time, competance, and inclination to fix the problem. Hell, let's add text-decoration:blink to it, if that will cause people to replace the tag with actual links, just to avoid being bombarded by the blinking. — Jul. 1, '06[19:06] <freak|
talk>
Comment Which would cause Wikipedia to become an unreadable mess of blinking garbage. If you want people to stay and fix problems, you can't afford to drive them away by making the articles unreadable, which is what Template:fact does. That is why the talk pages were created in the first place.
dryguy 19:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
You've missed the point. This template is to let other users know that a small section of the article needs to be improved, many of whom would not otherwise notice that need. — Jul. 1, '06[19:22] <freak|
talk>
Comment No, I get the intent of the template. I just think that as a solution, it is worse than the problem it is supposed to solve.
dryguy 19:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd argue that an
unverified article is far worse then an ugly looking one. --
DragonHawk 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment So you propose to make them both ugly and unverified. Great.
dryguy 21:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: If that is the end result of a lack of citations, yes. Even more, an article that violates several different Wikipedia policies may well have several tags on it, causing it to look even worse. Notice the pattern? The worse an article is, the worse it looks. I consider that a feature, not a bug. --
DragonHawk 21:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep Perhaps you also want to get rid of all the
cleanup tags because it looks unprofessional. The only articles that are "going to press" are the feature articles which are not allowed to have any {{fact}}'s in them. If an article become "littered" with "clutter" they should be removed an replaced with a
Template:Disputed or
Template:Disputed-section.
Jon513 20:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment No, I'm not addressing the general concept of maintenance tags, just Template:fact. Most tags hit the top or bottom of the page with one nice clean banner. Template:fact clutters mercilessly.
dryguy 20:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep This is a very valid tool for helping "clue in" fellow editors not comprehensively aware of a given subject of likely problems in a given article. I have used this template enough to know that it tends to work well towards getting text in articles properly cited.
Netscott 20:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Double edit conflict strong keep. This maintenance template is used heavily - it is included in over 5,000 articles! Any proposal to deprecate the template should be preceded by the introduction of an alternative on the Village Pump. This template is simply too high-profile to delete out of hand.
Zetawoof(
ζ) 20:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Single edit conflict Keep. Quite important tool to remind people to always use references. --
Conti|
✉ 20:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment:
Dryguy, you state repeatedly that this template does things like "frustrates many readers" and "drive them away". Those are pretty serious charges. On what do you base these statements? --
DragonHawk 20:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment Sorry, I was unclear. Modifying the tag to blink would perhaps drive users away. :) As far as frustrating readers, refer to a good style guide such as Strunk and White regarding parenthetical interruption of a statement. This is more of a problem for Template:fact when it is used repeatedly in the same article. It is like the visual equivalent of a jackhammer in the background.
dryguy 21:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. Why shouldn't article defects be pointed out to readers? IMHO it serves to 1) take the info with a grain of salt 2) get a more experienced editor to supply a backup. It's fact checking which is a great idea in any collaborative effort.
Ifnord 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment They should be. On the talk page.
dryguy 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. This template serves a vital function on an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. We encourage anyone to edit, because we believe that lowers the barrier to entry for contributions, and thus can enable the best content possible. However, it also means that we have to be very careful about what gets contributed. The "three big content policies" (
WP:V,
WP:NPOV, and
WP:NOR) all depend on citations. Without citations, Wikipedia is little more than a message board. I would thus argue that lack of citations is one of the biggest editorial problems Wikipedia faces, and that this tag is thus one of the most vital tags on Wikipedia. We should make it hugely obvious that a citation is needed. If that makes the article look unpleasant, good. An article that fails to cite sources should look bad, because it IS bad. --
DragonHawk 21:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep with edit conflict - let the reader know that s/he should not blindly trust some facts. Let the editors know that something needs fixing.
Renata 21:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep as per DragonHawk. --
Shuki 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep - This is the best template on Wikipedia. I probably reference it about 20 times per day. --
Liface 21:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep - we are always a work in progress.
Secretlondon 21:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. --
Oden 21:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Super strong keep. Extremely useful template, especially during reviews of existing articles... --
Grafikm(AutoGRAF) 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. While I agree that information that is not sourced or potentially inaccurate should be removed, this is a useful tag that helps identify possibly incorrect and unsourced information. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and while it may appear unprofessional to use this tag, it is vital to editors trying to improve verifiability. It's also helpful to readers, sending a message to consider the information "cum grano salis." If you don't like seeing this tag, consider determinig whether the information is factual, and if it is, cite it. --
Randy Johnston (
‽) 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Better to disclaim un-cited information than to simply report them and argue them elsewhere. Wikipedia is meant to be open, and this template keeps the editing process more open. —
siroχo 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete. It ruins Wikipedia crediblity. —
Falconleaf 21:13, 1 July 2006
Comment:
Falconleaf, you say it ruins Wikipedia credibility. How so? An article without citations violates major policies, regardless of this tag. I'd say failure to justify where we get our information is a bar bigger credibility problem then this markup is. --
DragonHawk 21:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep, but change what the template displays from [citation needed] to [?] (or something like that). As it stands, the template clutters up the page too much. Just a question mark would let editors understand what's going on without interfering in readers' objective of simply reading the article.
zafiroblue05 |
Talk 21:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep; very important and helps with working article to FA/GA status. Suggest (if possible) speedy keeping; if you think it looks messy normally, this IFD tag is far worse for article clutter (see
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Life as Queen. smurrayinch
ester(
User), (
Talk) 21:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. None of our articles will ever be complete but this tag is really useful to force others to add sources. The fact that it is ugly is small consideration. (Your deletion nomination makes it even more ugly.)
Skinnyweed 21:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Though it is ugly, it does serve is an impetus to find sources. In our recent FA push for
Chrono Trigger, a few hard to find references were brought to light by visitors passing by who noticed the tags and assisted us on the talk page. They're great direction signs on the road to improvement. --
Zeality 21:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep why was there a TfD in the first place? (1 edit conflict!) -- Миборовский 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
What are we voting for to keep the template (Keep) or to keep the hideous message that appears when it now used quote "this may be deleted have your say" - get rid of this please.
HappyVR 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: I believe the "this may be deleted have your say" text is an attempt to highlight the TfD status of this template. Since this template is used in-line with article text, the normal TfD textbox approach cannot be used. Witness the link to this discussion in the "have your say" text. Regardless, this vote is absolutely about the template itself; this is a TfD log page. --
DragonHawk 21:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. This tag is very important in verifying facts in an article. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment:
User:Dryguy, I've noticed a common theme in your comments. Is your only objection to this tag that it upsets your sense of asthetics? Yes, the text rendered by this tag is not part of the article text. Neither are regular footnotes (superscript numerals). We aren't going to get rid of footnotes if they upset your personal sense of asthetics; I feel the same reasoning should apply here. Wikipedia is a verifiable encyclopedia first; looking nice comes afterwards. (This is not to say we shouldn't strive for a good appearance, too, but the one overrides the other.) --
DragonHawk 21:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment That, and it is redundant with the function of the talk page. Template:fact also tends to be over applied. Citing sources is good and necessary, but I think the ease of insertion of the template leads to overuse and cluttering of otherwise good articles. Often, a paragraph expressing many ideas needs only one reference, but the uninformed are likely to come along and litter every sentence with {{fact}} tags. A better approach is to bring it up on the talk page - that way, cooler, wiser heads prevail. Verifiability is a must, but that doesn’t mean that citations need to be applied with religious fervor to every last little detail.
dryguy 21:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and this tag serves to highlight missing sources that can back up statements in articles. As Wikipedia has recieved some critisism as students cite Wikipedia, without checking other sources this could help to make students (and other users) aware that a statement is unsourced, and possibly not correct.
Bjelleklang -
talk 21:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Very useful in terms of marking what exactly is unverified, helps editors determine problems with an article and notify readers that a certain statement may be doubtful. The high number of articles using the template speaks for itself of its usefulness. Its functionality and convenience can in now way be substituted simply by talk page discussion. Todor→Bozhinov 21:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep Important template. I've seen many instances where this tag has worked really well. They just should be removed much sooner from the article. I think if after a week or so there still is no source, the tag should be removed and the unsourced statement should be moved to the talk page.
Garion96(talk) 21:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Short of any other crossreferencing system, this is about as good as it gets. --
moof 21:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: When articles are printed that contain it, this tag does not form part of the document. It has a specific "no print" marker to prevent that.
Netscott 21:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. Nominator using TfD to make a point. Either that or very innocent about how to obtain consensus on a template used in over 18k articles. --
Stbalbach 21:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment No, I really believe Wikipedia would be the better for its deletion. A lot of work, yes, but there are a lot of editors available to help. Please assume good faith.
dryguy 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sometimes people feel irritated by a statement they read in an article. If there is no reference which supports that statement, they can either search for a reference themselves, add that {{fact}} template, post a message on the talk page (which is more work) or outright delete that statement. If a statement doesn't look obviously wrong, I'd rather like a lazy editor to add a {{fact}} template, than to delete the statement. IMHO if we delete the {{fact}} template, many editors will rather delete statements, than post a message on the talk page.
Raphael1 21:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Reminds editors of always referencing their sources, and reminds users that not everything in Wikipedia should be taken as a fact. At most, it could possibly be shortened, but still kept. --
Kamek 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Highlighting an article's defect to a non-editor can only be a good thing. It's my belief that the addition of {{fact}} has caused editors to substantially improve the verifiability of Wikipedia. Also, putting all that extra text to reference the TfD discussion everywhere the template is included is nuts. --
Grouse 21:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep as per many others, extremely useful. We also need to remove that tag, becuase it makes articles look messy, and if you subst the template, then you have to go back and remove that after this is closed. The concensus already seems very clear.--
Crossmr 21:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and links like this invite them to do it. This is far better for individual small facts than section source templates and full-article templates. --
Dhartung |
Talk 21:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep for practicality. It would be great if we had no need to keep "metadata" out of our "ready for publishing" articles. We're not there. This template often has precisely its desired effect, and is too useful to get rid of.
Jkelly 21:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep = Whenever I see this tag, as a casual user, it warns me "Hey, this information may not be citable." Whenever I see this tag, as a Wikipedia user, it tells me "This information needs a citation of some sort; wonder if I can help?" Removing it would be harmful both to those wishing to take Wikipedia seriously and those wishing to make Wikipedia better.
Sethimothy 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. Very useful to flag comments to other users as not entirely definitive but not so dubious that it should be removed.
Mark83 21:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. As Above, prevents protracted Wiki-Deleetion Wars. --
Majin Gojira 21:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Extremely useful QA technique.--
Fred 21:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep and immediately revert the template to it's pre Tfd form. Modifying the template to include a link to this page is uglifying every article that uses it.
BigE1977 21:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep as above. I personally belive that this template goes a long way to preventing edit and revert wars by allowing contributers to see what needs cited. Why on earth would you want to axe it?
TomStar81 21:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. As others have mentioned, this basically amounts to a request for a source for a statement that may be dubious, but isn't so dubious to deserve that tag or to warrant a factuality dispute. It shows that one should be skeptical of a statement until it's backed with a source, and this certainly can't be a bad thing. It can even remind or pressure people to add citations to their work -- I used this tag on
Scleroderma and the next edit was someone coming in and adding references for those requests. This tag is Good(tm) and should stay. --
FreelanceWizard 21:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep definitely useful, and a signal (where necessary) that someone shouldn't believe everything they read.
CanadianCaesarEt tu, Brute? 21:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep as per sane reasons above. Also: for a second there, I thought the statement I was reading was going to be deleted!! -
Aknorals 22:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
CommentWP:TFD says that "If a template is part of (the functioning of) a Wikipedia policy or guideline, the template cannot be listed for deletion on TfD separately, the template should be discussed where the discussion for that guideline is taking place." Since this template is part of
WP:CITE a style guide entry, and
WP:RULES says that a style guide entry is just a type of guideline, proposing the deletion here is out-of-process and the discussion should be closed. --
Grouse 22:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
If you know how to close it you can do so. You don't have to be an admin to close this, concensus is clear, and if it violates policy, please close it. I'm removing the "This may be deleted" tag from the template, as its an eyesore on the thousands of articles it appears on. See this
Wikipedia:Deletion_process#Non-Administrators_closing_discussions--
Crossmr 22:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment It says not to close it if you were involved in the discussion, so it needs to be someone else.
dryguy 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment I was unaware of that (understandably, I hope). If Grouse is correct, then by all means admins, close the discussion. Outcome is already clear anyway.
dryguy 22:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I've removed the TfD message... it's clear where this is going.
Netscott 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC) On second thought, this TfD is not closed... I've reverted to
User:Omniplex's version.
Netscott 22:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The nom was withdrawn on improper process, why would you say its not closed? --
Crossmr 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Nom needs to state as much in the heading of the TfD.
Netscott 22:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Ahh okay. Dryguy if you want to go ahead and strike out your statement and put that in, this can be closed.--
Crossmr 22:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep- Very useful tool, often prompting a more comprehensive, truthful and
NPOV statement; which can only be a good thing for Wikipedia.
Jhamez84 22:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep- VERY USEFUL!! the alternative is to delete things, and start an edit war. This template makes people want to cite things instead of start edit wars. very useful. don't get rid of it.
216.15.119.166 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Change to [?] which links to bottom of page like footnotes and there explains that a citation is needed.
Keep an important tool in collaboratively building verifiable articles. --
ChrisRuvolo (
t) 22:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete This tag is in contravention of one of our most basic polices,
WP:V. If something cannot be cited, it should probably be moved to talk or deleted. See also
this post by Jimbo on the mailing list.
Kotepho 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep. Not just useful as an editors tool; it also serves to inform astute readers that what they are reading contains potentially inaccurate information. And the current "this may be deleted" text is an annoyance that is only useful to editors and appears on each of the hundreds of articles that currently use the template, so should be reverted to the old text ASAP.
JulesH 22:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
comment that wasn't the correct edit summary for the last one.. I was looking at the templates for closing it as dryguy withdrew it, but netscott ended up in an edit conflict with me, and I forgot to clear the field. --
Crossmr 22:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was delete21:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Official Sonic the Hedgehog
This template for the Sonic Features is unnecessary as there already is
Template:SonicFeatures. Also, there is no "Template:" tag before this template. This should be either re-directed to
Template:SonicFeatures or deleted outright.
real_decimic 03:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete - It seems an useless misuse of the article namespace.
Afonso Silva 13:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. No redirect, that would be cross namespace and thus not good.--
Ac1983fan (
talk •
contribs) 13:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was Nom Withdrawn - Good enough for me, if anyone objects we can reopen it.
Crossmr 22:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Template:Fact(
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs) Delete This template is the equivalent of an editor's markup on a rough draft. It litters many otherwise good articles on Wikipedia with ugly, unprofessional looking clutter that only serves to highlight the articles' defects to non-editors. No real encyclopedia would go to press with marks like this left in its articles. This is the type of thing that belongs on an article's talk page, not in the article itself. Template:fact should be deleted and instances of its use should be replaced with appropriate discussions on the talk pages of the articles where it is used.
dryguy 17:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Withdrawn I withdraw the nomination. There. Does that do it?
dryguy 22:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: This template is currently represented on over 18,000 pages.
Netscott 21:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The {{
Tfd-inline}} emulation was added by
Netscott later, now it shows up with all affected citations, therefore I change my comment to speedy keep. --
Omniplex 21:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Just for clarity here, I did
my best to keep the TfD message as unobtrusive
as possible.
Netscott 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Absolutely. This monstrous graffiti should be deleted. If a factual statement is in serious doubt, it should be discussed, and if significant removed during discussion. Just popping a tag on the article simply disfigured the article for no good reason. --
Tony Sidaway 18:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Wikipedia is a work in progress; the project as a whole is a rough draft. By hiding our "defects" we make them more difficult to correct. We don't compose articles in a dark room, then "go to press" with them, and we aren't professionals to begin with. We're amateur writers, some of us
fail at the actual craft of prose and wander in search of other ways to contribute, eventually becoming administrators. You say "non-editors" as if you are referring to a certain, higher class of people expecting more from us than we do of ourselves. On the contrary, the only people I'd like to see remain "non-editors" are the ones found
here, whose opinions no longer mean shit to us, if ever they did. If you think adding optional parameters for a link to a relevant talk page section would improve this template, go ahead and do so. If you think it looks unprofessional, change its appearance. If this nomination is your reaction to this template being inserted in an article you wrote (no, I haven't checked), then provide a citation in its place, so you won't have to see it anymore. — Jul. 1, '06[18:40] <freak|
talk>
Comment By non-editor, I mean anyone reading an article without the intent to edit it at the moment - even if the person is a regular Wikipedia editor otherwise. The fact template adds a lot of darned distracting clutter that frustrates many readers. Some articles have tens of instances of the fact template, which is not something I am regularly willing to change on the fly when I'm here reading. If I'm here editing, you bet I'll add the citations where I am able.
dryguy 18:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The solution is not to sweep the problem under the rug. The solution is to draw a circle around using day-glow orange chalk in hopes of catching the attention of somebody who does have the time, competance, and inclination to fix the problem. Hell, let's add text-decoration:blink to it, if that will cause people to replace the tag with actual links, just to avoid being bombarded by the blinking. — Jul. 1, '06[19:06] <freak|
talk>
Comment Which would cause Wikipedia to become an unreadable mess of blinking garbage. If you want people to stay and fix problems, you can't afford to drive them away by making the articles unreadable, which is what Template:fact does. That is why the talk pages were created in the first place.
dryguy 19:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
You've missed the point. This template is to let other users know that a small section of the article needs to be improved, many of whom would not otherwise notice that need. — Jul. 1, '06[19:22] <freak|
talk>
Comment No, I get the intent of the template. I just think that as a solution, it is worse than the problem it is supposed to solve.
dryguy 19:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment I'd argue that an
unverified article is far worse then an ugly looking one. --
DragonHawk 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment So you propose to make them both ugly and unverified. Great.
dryguy 21:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: If that is the end result of a lack of citations, yes. Even more, an article that violates several different Wikipedia policies may well have several tags on it, causing it to look even worse. Notice the pattern? The worse an article is, the worse it looks. I consider that a feature, not a bug. --
DragonHawk 21:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep Perhaps you also want to get rid of all the
cleanup tags because it looks unprofessional. The only articles that are "going to press" are the feature articles which are not allowed to have any {{fact}}'s in them. If an article become "littered" with "clutter" they should be removed an replaced with a
Template:Disputed or
Template:Disputed-section.
Jon513 20:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment No, I'm not addressing the general concept of maintenance tags, just Template:fact. Most tags hit the top or bottom of the page with one nice clean banner. Template:fact clutters mercilessly.
dryguy 20:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep This is a very valid tool for helping "clue in" fellow editors not comprehensively aware of a given subject of likely problems in a given article. I have used this template enough to know that it tends to work well towards getting text in articles properly cited.
Netscott 20:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Double edit conflict strong keep. This maintenance template is used heavily - it is included in over 5,000 articles! Any proposal to deprecate the template should be preceded by the introduction of an alternative on the Village Pump. This template is simply too high-profile to delete out of hand.
Zetawoof(
ζ) 20:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Single edit conflict Keep. Quite important tool to remind people to always use references. --
Conti|
✉ 20:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment:
Dryguy, you state repeatedly that this template does things like "frustrates many readers" and "drive them away". Those are pretty serious charges. On what do you base these statements? --
DragonHawk 20:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment Sorry, I was unclear. Modifying the tag to blink would perhaps drive users away. :) As far as frustrating readers, refer to a good style guide such as Strunk and White regarding parenthetical interruption of a statement. This is more of a problem for Template:fact when it is used repeatedly in the same article. It is like the visual equivalent of a jackhammer in the background.
dryguy 21:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. Why shouldn't article defects be pointed out to readers? IMHO it serves to 1) take the info with a grain of salt 2) get a more experienced editor to supply a backup. It's fact checking which is a great idea in any collaborative effort.
Ifnord 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment They should be. On the talk page.
dryguy 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. This template serves a vital function on an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. We encourage anyone to edit, because we believe that lowers the barrier to entry for contributions, and thus can enable the best content possible. However, it also means that we have to be very careful about what gets contributed. The "three big content policies" (
WP:V,
WP:NPOV, and
WP:NOR) all depend on citations. Without citations, Wikipedia is little more than a message board. I would thus argue that lack of citations is one of the biggest editorial problems Wikipedia faces, and that this tag is thus one of the most vital tags on Wikipedia. We should make it hugely obvious that a citation is needed. If that makes the article look unpleasant, good. An article that fails to cite sources should look bad, because it IS bad. --
DragonHawk 21:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep with edit conflict - let the reader know that s/he should not blindly trust some facts. Let the editors know that something needs fixing.
Renata 21:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep as per DragonHawk. --
Shuki 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep - This is the best template on Wikipedia. I probably reference it about 20 times per day. --
Liface 21:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep - we are always a work in progress.
Secretlondon 21:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. --
Oden 21:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Super strong keep. Extremely useful template, especially during reviews of existing articles... --
Grafikm(AutoGRAF) 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. While I agree that information that is not sourced or potentially inaccurate should be removed, this is a useful tag that helps identify possibly incorrect and unsourced information. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and while it may appear unprofessional to use this tag, it is vital to editors trying to improve verifiability. It's also helpful to readers, sending a message to consider the information "cum grano salis." If you don't like seeing this tag, consider determinig whether the information is factual, and if it is, cite it. --
Randy Johnston (
‽) 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Better to disclaim un-cited information than to simply report them and argue them elsewhere. Wikipedia is meant to be open, and this template keeps the editing process more open. —
siroχo 21:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete. It ruins Wikipedia crediblity. —
Falconleaf 21:13, 1 July 2006
Comment:
Falconleaf, you say it ruins Wikipedia credibility. How so? An article without citations violates major policies, regardless of this tag. I'd say failure to justify where we get our information is a bar bigger credibility problem then this markup is. --
DragonHawk 21:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep, but change what the template displays from [citation needed] to [?] (or something like that). As it stands, the template clutters up the page too much. Just a question mark would let editors understand what's going on without interfering in readers' objective of simply reading the article.
zafiroblue05 |
Talk 21:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep; very important and helps with working article to FA/GA status. Suggest (if possible) speedy keeping; if you think it looks messy normally, this IFD tag is far worse for article clutter (see
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Life as Queen. smurrayinch
ester(
User), (
Talk) 21:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. None of our articles will ever be complete but this tag is really useful to force others to add sources. The fact that it is ugly is small consideration. (Your deletion nomination makes it even more ugly.)
Skinnyweed 21:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Though it is ugly, it does serve is an impetus to find sources. In our recent FA push for
Chrono Trigger, a few hard to find references were brought to light by visitors passing by who noticed the tags and assisted us on the talk page. They're great direction signs on the road to improvement. --
Zeality 21:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep why was there a TfD in the first place? (1 edit conflict!) -- Миборовский 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
What are we voting for to keep the template (Keep) or to keep the hideous message that appears when it now used quote "this may be deleted have your say" - get rid of this please.
HappyVR 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: I believe the "this may be deleted have your say" text is an attempt to highlight the TfD status of this template. Since this template is used in-line with article text, the normal TfD textbox approach cannot be used. Witness the link to this discussion in the "have your say" text. Regardless, this vote is absolutely about the template itself; this is a TfD log page. --
DragonHawk 21:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. This tag is very important in verifying facts in an article. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 21:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment:
User:Dryguy, I've noticed a common theme in your comments. Is your only objection to this tag that it upsets your sense of asthetics? Yes, the text rendered by this tag is not part of the article text. Neither are regular footnotes (superscript numerals). We aren't going to get rid of footnotes if they upset your personal sense of asthetics; I feel the same reasoning should apply here. Wikipedia is a verifiable encyclopedia first; looking nice comes afterwards. (This is not to say we shouldn't strive for a good appearance, too, but the one overrides the other.) --
DragonHawk 21:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment That, and it is redundant with the function of the talk page. Template:fact also tends to be over applied. Citing sources is good and necessary, but I think the ease of insertion of the template leads to overuse and cluttering of otherwise good articles. Often, a paragraph expressing many ideas needs only one reference, but the uninformed are likely to come along and litter every sentence with {{fact}} tags. A better approach is to bring it up on the talk page - that way, cooler, wiser heads prevail. Verifiability is a must, but that doesn’t mean that citations need to be applied with religious fervor to every last little detail.
dryguy 21:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and this tag serves to highlight missing sources that can back up statements in articles. As Wikipedia has recieved some critisism as students cite Wikipedia, without checking other sources this could help to make students (and other users) aware that a statement is unsourced, and possibly not correct.
Bjelleklang -
talk 21:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Very useful in terms of marking what exactly is unverified, helps editors determine problems with an article and notify readers that a certain statement may be doubtful. The high number of articles using the template speaks for itself of its usefulness. Its functionality and convenience can in now way be substituted simply by talk page discussion. Todor→Bozhinov 21:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep Important template. I've seen many instances where this tag has worked really well. They just should be removed much sooner from the article. I think if after a week or so there still is no source, the tag should be removed and the unsourced statement should be moved to the talk page.
Garion96(talk) 21:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong keep. Short of any other crossreferencing system, this is about as good as it gets. --
moof 21:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment: When articles are printed that contain it, this tag does not form part of the document. It has a specific "no print" marker to prevent that.
Netscott 21:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy keep. Nominator using TfD to make a point. Either that or very innocent about how to obtain consensus on a template used in over 18k articles. --
Stbalbach 21:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment No, I really believe Wikipedia would be the better for its deletion. A lot of work, yes, but there are a lot of editors available to help. Please assume good faith.
dryguy 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sometimes people feel irritated by a statement they read in an article. If there is no reference which supports that statement, they can either search for a reference themselves, add that {{fact}} template, post a message on the talk page (which is more work) or outright delete that statement. If a statement doesn't look obviously wrong, I'd rather like a lazy editor to add a {{fact}} template, than to delete the statement. IMHO if we delete the {{fact}} template, many editors will rather delete statements, than post a message on the talk page.
Raphael1 21:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Reminds editors of always referencing their sources, and reminds users that not everything in Wikipedia should be taken as a fact. At most, it could possibly be shortened, but still kept. --
Kamek 21:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Highlighting an article's defect to a non-editor can only be a good thing. It's my belief that the addition of {{fact}} has caused editors to substantially improve the verifiability of Wikipedia. Also, putting all that extra text to reference the TfD discussion everywhere the template is included is nuts. --
Grouse 21:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep as per many others, extremely useful. We also need to remove that tag, becuase it makes articles look messy, and if you subst the template, then you have to go back and remove that after this is closed. The concensus already seems very clear.--
Crossmr 21:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and links like this invite them to do it. This is far better for individual small facts than section source templates and full-article templates. --
Dhartung |
Talk 21:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep for practicality. It would be great if we had no need to keep "metadata" out of our "ready for publishing" articles. We're not there. This template often has precisely its desired effect, and is too useful to get rid of.
Jkelly 21:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep = Whenever I see this tag, as a casual user, it warns me "Hey, this information may not be citable." Whenever I see this tag, as a Wikipedia user, it tells me "This information needs a citation of some sort; wonder if I can help?" Removing it would be harmful both to those wishing to take Wikipedia seriously and those wishing to make Wikipedia better.
Sethimothy 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. Very useful to flag comments to other users as not entirely definitive but not so dubious that it should be removed.
Mark83 21:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. As Above, prevents protracted Wiki-Deleetion Wars. --
Majin Gojira 21:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep. Extremely useful QA technique.--
Fred 21:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep and immediately revert the template to it's pre Tfd form. Modifying the template to include a link to this page is uglifying every article that uses it.
BigE1977 21:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep as above. I personally belive that this template goes a long way to preventing edit and revert wars by allowing contributers to see what needs cited. Why on earth would you want to axe it?
TomStar81 21:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. As others have mentioned, this basically amounts to a request for a source for a statement that may be dubious, but isn't so dubious to deserve that tag or to warrant a factuality dispute. It shows that one should be skeptical of a statement until it's backed with a source, and this certainly can't be a bad thing. It can even remind or pressure people to add citations to their work -- I used this tag on
Scleroderma and the next edit was someone coming in and adding references for those requests. This tag is Good(tm) and should stay. --
FreelanceWizard 21:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep definitely useful, and a signal (where necessary) that someone shouldn't believe everything they read.
CanadianCaesarEt tu, Brute? 21:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep as per sane reasons above. Also: for a second there, I thought the statement I was reading was going to be deleted!! -
Aknorals 22:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
CommentWP:TFD says that "If a template is part of (the functioning of) a Wikipedia policy or guideline, the template cannot be listed for deletion on TfD separately, the template should be discussed where the discussion for that guideline is taking place." Since this template is part of
WP:CITE a style guide entry, and
WP:RULES says that a style guide entry is just a type of guideline, proposing the deletion here is out-of-process and the discussion should be closed. --
Grouse 22:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
If you know how to close it you can do so. You don't have to be an admin to close this, concensus is clear, and if it violates policy, please close it. I'm removing the "This may be deleted" tag from the template, as its an eyesore on the thousands of articles it appears on. See this
Wikipedia:Deletion_process#Non-Administrators_closing_discussions--
Crossmr 22:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment It says not to close it if you were involved in the discussion, so it needs to be someone else.
dryguy 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Comment I was unaware of that (understandably, I hope). If Grouse is correct, then by all means admins, close the discussion. Outcome is already clear anyway.
dryguy 22:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I've removed the TfD message... it's clear where this is going.
Netscott 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC) On second thought, this TfD is not closed... I've reverted to
User:Omniplex's version.
Netscott 22:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The nom was withdrawn on improper process, why would you say its not closed? --
Crossmr 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Nom needs to state as much in the heading of the TfD.
Netscott 22:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Ahh okay. Dryguy if you want to go ahead and strike out your statement and put that in, this can be closed.--
Crossmr 22:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep- Very useful tool, often prompting a more comprehensive, truthful and
NPOV statement; which can only be a good thing for Wikipedia.
Jhamez84 22:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Keep- VERY USEFUL!! the alternative is to delete things, and start an edit war. This template makes people want to cite things instead of start edit wars. very useful. don't get rid of it.
216.15.119.166 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Change to [?] which links to bottom of page like footnotes and there explains that a citation is needed.
Keep an important tool in collaboratively building verifiable articles. --
ChrisRuvolo (
t) 22:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete This tag is in contravention of one of our most basic polices,
WP:V. If something cannot be cited, it should probably be moved to talk or deleted. See also
this post by Jimbo on the mailing list.
Kotepho 22:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Speedy Keep. Not just useful as an editors tool; it also serves to inform astute readers that what they are reading contains potentially inaccurate information. And the current "this may be deleted" text is an annoyance that is only useful to editors and appears on each of the hundreds of articles that currently use the template, so should be reverted to the old text ASAP.
JulesH 22:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
comment that wasn't the correct edit summary for the last one.. I was looking at the templates for closing it as dryguy withdrew it, but netscott ended up in an edit conflict with me, and I forgot to clear the field. --
Crossmr 22:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was delete21:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Official Sonic the Hedgehog
This template for the Sonic Features is unnecessary as there already is
Template:SonicFeatures. Also, there is no "Template:" tag before this template. This should be either re-directed to
Template:SonicFeatures or deleted outright.
real_decimic 03:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete - It seems an useless misuse of the article namespace.
Afonso Silva 13:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. No redirect, that would be cross namespace and thus not good.--
Ac1983fan (
talk •
contribs) 13:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.