PS: The edit war at [1] is disturbing, because its so minor. There seems to be no use in this. -SV
Sv writes, "SR appears to be claiming that inacademic sources are inferior to academic sources in this regard, and to a small extent I agree." This is a slight oversimplification of my point. I certainly do believe that someone who has spent many years studying the NT — not just the King James version, but someone who has travelled top different archives and libraries to study original third or fourth century manuscripts; someone who can read Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic; someone who understands critical methods in history and comparative literature – I certainly think this person's scholarship is far superior to someone who has read a few books in English, Italian, or whatever modern vernacular. I do believe that someone with a PhD. from a top-flight Department of Religion, History, Ancient Near Eastern Studies, or Bible, and who has achieved the position of professor at a top-flight Department of Religion, History, Ancient Near Eastern Studies, or Bible, almost certainly fulfills the criteria I list above for being a superior scholar. But I certainly admit that someone need not be a professor at Oxford or Harvard to be a superior scholar. I think academic sources are likely to be superior to non-academic sources, but not necessarily.
My main point in this regard is not that I think academic sources are necessarily superior to nonacademic sources. My main point is that Rev of Bru's reduction of all writing on Jesus to two opposing categories, "religious" and "secular," is simply oversimplistic and misleading. A person may be religious (i.e. believes in God, goes to church) and yet still be able to apply critical judgement to historic texts, and reach conclusions independent of his or her faith. Conversely, someone may be "secular" (i.e. doesn't believe in God and doesn't go to church) and yet be incapable of applying critical judgement to historic texts. Erik von Dannekin, for example, makes historical claims about books of the Bible like Ezekiel. He clearly is rejecting orthodox religious claims about the Bible. But no capable historian has any respect whatsoever for Danekin's claims. Being secular is no guarantee to being intelligent, well-informed, or even a critical thinker. Academic scholars whose research, analysis, and writing are entirely independent of religious dogma might nevertheless consider themselves religious or secular. My point is that labels like "religious" or "secular" simply do not allow one to evaluate the quality of their scholarship. One must look at other criteria (like the ones I lay out above).
Rev of Bru seems to have no understanding or appreciation of modern critical (academic) scholarship, period. He sees only two sides to discussions about Jesus and the NT: either you believe in the Nicean creed or you reject it. This is just as simplistic and wrong as someone who thinks that the whole debate over "creationism" and "Darwinism" is between people who love God and who hate God. This may be the view of a narrow band of Creationist fundamentalist extremists, but evolutionary scientists in Anthropology, Biology, or Zoology departments will tell you that the things they debate concerning evolutionary theory and the evolution of specific organisms just has nothing to do with the debate between God-lovers and God-haters. Similarly, there is vigorous debate among scholars of the NT, over how to reconstruct documentary sources, about the meaning of archeological evidence, about Jewish beliefs in the 1st century, about the nature of Hellenism, and so on -- and you will not be able to understand any of these fascinating debates merely by dividing all people into two camps, religious and secular. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:08, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
PS: The edit war at [1] is disturbing, because its so minor. There seems to be no use in this. -SV
Sv writes, "SR appears to be claiming that inacademic sources are inferior to academic sources in this regard, and to a small extent I agree." This is a slight oversimplification of my point. I certainly do believe that someone who has spent many years studying the NT — not just the King James version, but someone who has travelled top different archives and libraries to study original third or fourth century manuscripts; someone who can read Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic; someone who understands critical methods in history and comparative literature – I certainly think this person's scholarship is far superior to someone who has read a few books in English, Italian, or whatever modern vernacular. I do believe that someone with a PhD. from a top-flight Department of Religion, History, Ancient Near Eastern Studies, or Bible, and who has achieved the position of professor at a top-flight Department of Religion, History, Ancient Near Eastern Studies, or Bible, almost certainly fulfills the criteria I list above for being a superior scholar. But I certainly admit that someone need not be a professor at Oxford or Harvard to be a superior scholar. I think academic sources are likely to be superior to non-academic sources, but not necessarily.
My main point in this regard is not that I think academic sources are necessarily superior to nonacademic sources. My main point is that Rev of Bru's reduction of all writing on Jesus to two opposing categories, "religious" and "secular," is simply oversimplistic and misleading. A person may be religious (i.e. believes in God, goes to church) and yet still be able to apply critical judgement to historic texts, and reach conclusions independent of his or her faith. Conversely, someone may be "secular" (i.e. doesn't believe in God and doesn't go to church) and yet be incapable of applying critical judgement to historic texts. Erik von Dannekin, for example, makes historical claims about books of the Bible like Ezekiel. He clearly is rejecting orthodox religious claims about the Bible. But no capable historian has any respect whatsoever for Danekin's claims. Being secular is no guarantee to being intelligent, well-informed, or even a critical thinker. Academic scholars whose research, analysis, and writing are entirely independent of religious dogma might nevertheless consider themselves religious or secular. My point is that labels like "religious" or "secular" simply do not allow one to evaluate the quality of their scholarship. One must look at other criteria (like the ones I lay out above).
Rev of Bru seems to have no understanding or appreciation of modern critical (academic) scholarship, period. He sees only two sides to discussions about Jesus and the NT: either you believe in the Nicean creed or you reject it. This is just as simplistic and wrong as someone who thinks that the whole debate over "creationism" and "Darwinism" is between people who love God and who hate God. This may be the view of a narrow band of Creationist fundamentalist extremists, but evolutionary scientists in Anthropology, Biology, or Zoology departments will tell you that the things they debate concerning evolutionary theory and the evolution of specific organisms just has nothing to do with the debate between God-lovers and God-haters. Similarly, there is vigorous debate among scholars of the NT, over how to reconstruct documentary sources, about the meaning of archeological evidence, about Jewish beliefs in the 1st century, about the nature of Hellenism, and so on -- and you will not be able to understand any of these fascinating debates merely by dividing all people into two camps, religious and secular. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:08, 1 May 2005 (UTC)