![]() | Mediation of this dispute has been completed. The case pages should not be edited.
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inactivity
Some of the principal editors of this article have agreed to mediation. It has undergone contentious editing for many months. - Willmcw 23:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, let's hit the floor running. There are a couple of things I'd like to do first:
My apologies for the long post, but I hope this will help us get off to a good start. -- Essjay · Talk 02:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I submitted the statements you asked for on 17 Oct. What's the next step? Thanks, Michaelbluejay 14:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to request the Chair to reassign this mediation as I've decided to take a sabattical from the committee for a while. My apologies to the parties. -- Essjay · Talk 02:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. Michael Bluejay has already filled me in on his side of the disagreement, so will the other side please identify itself and do the same? My contact information can be found on my user page. Andre ( talk) 21:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Any news on where we're at, what happens next, when, etc? Thanky-poo, Michaelbluejay 18:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. Sorry for the delay - real life takes up a lot of my time.
Anyway, I'd like to now establish the limits of this mediation - or lack thereof. Generally, I think it's a good idea to not limit mediation to one section of an article and exclude others. However, Samivel has expressed to me that he would like to limit the mediation to "the first (introductory) section and the section titled 'Aesthetic Realism and Homosexuality'." Are there in fact disputes outside of these limits? If so, they should be addressed as well.
Next, I'd like to establish some facts. Essentially, facts are items in the article that everyone agrees on. This isn't about whether that item should be included in the article, but just that the item is true beyond reasonable doubt. The way I'd like to do this is have you both list as many items as you can in the "Facts" column (below) and remove those you disagree with. You can revert an addition, but don't revert a removal - this defeats the purpose. In the end, we should have a list of things you both agree on, and we can work from there.
I'm looking forward to helping you guys with this article. Andre ( talk) 23:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I oppose limiting the scope of the article. Otherwise B.S. gets inserted such as, "Bluejay, whose relation to Aesthetic Realism is that his mother once studied it when he was an infant...".
Since I was the person requesting mediation for those particular sections--the only ones in dispute--I think we should limit it to them. I will not insert "B.S." and in fact will oppose it. By the way, TS, who wrote that tiny bit of misinformation, was corrected and it never appeared. Bluejay had an Aesthetic Realism lesson about age 2 1/2 which I was present at.-- samivel 20:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The following facts are from the Timeline about Aesthetic Realism:
It's clear to me that Perey has no interest in a fair mediation. Mediation only works when the people involved are willing to play fair and be reasonable. I think the only way we'll get this resolved is through arbitration. Before I request that I'd like to get Andrevan's thoughts on that. Michaelbluejay 21:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Let us take these points. Does Mr. Bluejay agree with these?
We could reinstate Mr. Bluejay's points and then comment on them one by one, either before or after he has commented on mine:
Added by Michael Bluejay. These are true beyond any reasonable doubt:
I'm rather tired of Arnold Perey/Samivel repeatedly calling me a liar, as well as his constant, paranoid feelings of persecution, as well as his denying what he knows to be true (e.g., that Eli Siegel killed himself), as well as his repeatedly citing sources that do not say what he claims they say (e.g., that the ACLU says that cult accusations have no scientific basis -- since when does the ACLU even weigh in on science)? And I just saw this by Samivel in the history while looking for an edit I made which didn't make it onto this page:
JESUS H. CHRIST! Perey, I don't think you could have made my point any better that one attribute of cultists is their PARANOID FEELING OF PERSECUTION! Though this is certainly not the first example. You've also worried and/or outright alleged that I was behind the recent change in mediator, that the various editors of the article are all me, that my website is Ellen Mali's idea and work, etc. And let's not forget the vast media conspiracy to not report about Aesthetic Realism because all the writers are furious about their great respect for Eli Siegel. Your belief in all these things is just sad, but I'm not going to humor you any more about them. I was going to suggest letting you try to pick the arbitrator (if they allow that sort of thing), but whatever, you'd probably just allege (or at least think) that I've somehow gotten through to ALL of them. Yes, that's right, Arnold Perey, I've secretly made alliances with all of the powerful people in the Wikipedia hierarchy who will now do my bidding to be completely unfair to Aesthetic Realism and Eli Siegel! Now you can go report back to the group about this great Wikipedia conspiracy against you! Write it up in TRO. Have a ball.
Since Perey would rather (1) call me a liar, (2) censor my contributions, and (3) worry that I'm conspiring against him, instead of MEDIATING THE ARTICLE, I withdraw. I'll request arbitration as soon as I have a chance. If that doesn't work then I'll start editing the article again myself, and appeal to independent Wikipedians for assistance, since the independents have always edited on the side of reason rather than the side of cultist delusions.
Oh by the way, Andrevan, the edit I was looking for of mine that somehow didn't get saved was that I had to laugh when I saw you asking Perey/Samivel whether Eli Siegel killed himself, as though he would give you a straight answer, because I knew he wouldn't. He's entirely too predictable this way. And his failure to admit this because there is supposedly some question about it, while on the other hand he confidently asserts things as facts about which he has zero evidence of (e.g., that Ellen Mali is behind my website) is a little hypocritical, to say the least -- and one of the reasons why mediation is pointless.
I will not consider mediation again unless Perey/Samivel shows good faith by admitting that ELI SIEGEL KILLED HIMSELF. Let me quote Samivel/Perey himself on his Countering the Lies website:
Okay, Perey, if I'm LYING by saying that AR members have refused to reveal how Siegel died, then HOW DID THEY SAY HE DIED?! You say I'm lying by saying that you've refused to say how he died? Oh, I'm so sorry, please show me EXACTLY WHERE you or the others say EXACTLY HOW he died. I'm waiting.
Now you're saying, "I was not there and am not in a position to say definitely what happened." Geez, will you decide which side of this debate you're going to take? You're trying to take so many different positions to refute me that they're contradicting each other.
You bandy about the word "liar" like it was candy. But you know how Eli Siegel died. You know this because it was planned for a long time, and that the plan was discussed intensely within the group, and that prescription drugs were procured expessly for this purpose. (Do you deny any of these things?) Can you admit to Siegel's plan to take his life and his obvious success in doing so? If not, then stop saying I'm a liar for pointing out that you and the AR people won't come clean about Siegel's death. And don't expect me to mediate unil you do. Michaelbluejay 05:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Once again, I can't prevent you from proceeding to arbitration, but I urge you to calm down, take a step back, and try to resolve this in a civil fashion. Andre ( talk) 20:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
No deal. I've spelled out repeatedly what it would take for me to continue mediation, and you're not even *close* to there yet. I'm going to stop repeating myself on this and other topics. And I'm going to start editing the article again. Michaelbluejay 00:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but until Perey stops pussy-footing around Eli Siegel's suicide then I can't believe that he's willing to discuss things honestly. Also, he's had so, so, so many chances to work with the editors on the article responsibly but he prefers to just shout LIAR LIAR LIAR at every opportunity. I've finally exceeded my tolerance for that particular insult/smear. It's a point of personal pride for me that among those who know me and my work my honesty and integrity are well-known. I'm just no longer willing to sit still (much less cooperate) with someone who calls me a liar every other sentence. Maybe he's promising not to do so now, but it's too late for that, he missed the last several dozen chances he had, since my tolerance is all used up. That plus his unwillingness to come clean about Siegel's suicide (plus his long history of unreasonable and irresponsible edits and argumentation) tells me that mediation is beyond fruitless. I'm going to just start editing the article again, and I trust that the other responsible editors here will support a proper article rather than Perey's AR propaganda. In the unlikely event that that doesn't work, then I'll seek arbitration. Michaelbluejay 03:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Apparently my modest mediation skills have been fairly ineffective thus far. I thought a brief hiatus might give me more insight into the matter, but it has not done. May I suggest an IRC/otherwise live mediation? I think it may be productive. Andre ( talk) 00:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
![]() | Mediation of this dispute has been completed. The case pages should not be edited.
|
inactivity
Some of the principal editors of this article have agreed to mediation. It has undergone contentious editing for many months. - Willmcw 23:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, let's hit the floor running. There are a couple of things I'd like to do first:
My apologies for the long post, but I hope this will help us get off to a good start. -- Essjay · Talk 02:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I submitted the statements you asked for on 17 Oct. What's the next step? Thanks, Michaelbluejay 14:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to request the Chair to reassign this mediation as I've decided to take a sabattical from the committee for a while. My apologies to the parties. -- Essjay · Talk 02:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. Michael Bluejay has already filled me in on his side of the disagreement, so will the other side please identify itself and do the same? My contact information can be found on my user page. Andre ( talk) 21:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Any news on where we're at, what happens next, when, etc? Thanky-poo, Michaelbluejay 18:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi, everyone. Sorry for the delay - real life takes up a lot of my time.
Anyway, I'd like to now establish the limits of this mediation - or lack thereof. Generally, I think it's a good idea to not limit mediation to one section of an article and exclude others. However, Samivel has expressed to me that he would like to limit the mediation to "the first (introductory) section and the section titled 'Aesthetic Realism and Homosexuality'." Are there in fact disputes outside of these limits? If so, they should be addressed as well.
Next, I'd like to establish some facts. Essentially, facts are items in the article that everyone agrees on. This isn't about whether that item should be included in the article, but just that the item is true beyond reasonable doubt. The way I'd like to do this is have you both list as many items as you can in the "Facts" column (below) and remove those you disagree with. You can revert an addition, but don't revert a removal - this defeats the purpose. In the end, we should have a list of things you both agree on, and we can work from there.
I'm looking forward to helping you guys with this article. Andre ( talk) 23:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I oppose limiting the scope of the article. Otherwise B.S. gets inserted such as, "Bluejay, whose relation to Aesthetic Realism is that his mother once studied it when he was an infant...".
Since I was the person requesting mediation for those particular sections--the only ones in dispute--I think we should limit it to them. I will not insert "B.S." and in fact will oppose it. By the way, TS, who wrote that tiny bit of misinformation, was corrected and it never appeared. Bluejay had an Aesthetic Realism lesson about age 2 1/2 which I was present at.-- samivel 20:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The following facts are from the Timeline about Aesthetic Realism:
It's clear to me that Perey has no interest in a fair mediation. Mediation only works when the people involved are willing to play fair and be reasonable. I think the only way we'll get this resolved is through arbitration. Before I request that I'd like to get Andrevan's thoughts on that. Michaelbluejay 21:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Let us take these points. Does Mr. Bluejay agree with these?
We could reinstate Mr. Bluejay's points and then comment on them one by one, either before or after he has commented on mine:
Added by Michael Bluejay. These are true beyond any reasonable doubt:
I'm rather tired of Arnold Perey/Samivel repeatedly calling me a liar, as well as his constant, paranoid feelings of persecution, as well as his denying what he knows to be true (e.g., that Eli Siegel killed himself), as well as his repeatedly citing sources that do not say what he claims they say (e.g., that the ACLU says that cult accusations have no scientific basis -- since when does the ACLU even weigh in on science)? And I just saw this by Samivel in the history while looking for an edit I made which didn't make it onto this page:
JESUS H. CHRIST! Perey, I don't think you could have made my point any better that one attribute of cultists is their PARANOID FEELING OF PERSECUTION! Though this is certainly not the first example. You've also worried and/or outright alleged that I was behind the recent change in mediator, that the various editors of the article are all me, that my website is Ellen Mali's idea and work, etc. And let's not forget the vast media conspiracy to not report about Aesthetic Realism because all the writers are furious about their great respect for Eli Siegel. Your belief in all these things is just sad, but I'm not going to humor you any more about them. I was going to suggest letting you try to pick the arbitrator (if they allow that sort of thing), but whatever, you'd probably just allege (or at least think) that I've somehow gotten through to ALL of them. Yes, that's right, Arnold Perey, I've secretly made alliances with all of the powerful people in the Wikipedia hierarchy who will now do my bidding to be completely unfair to Aesthetic Realism and Eli Siegel! Now you can go report back to the group about this great Wikipedia conspiracy against you! Write it up in TRO. Have a ball.
Since Perey would rather (1) call me a liar, (2) censor my contributions, and (3) worry that I'm conspiring against him, instead of MEDIATING THE ARTICLE, I withdraw. I'll request arbitration as soon as I have a chance. If that doesn't work then I'll start editing the article again myself, and appeal to independent Wikipedians for assistance, since the independents have always edited on the side of reason rather than the side of cultist delusions.
Oh by the way, Andrevan, the edit I was looking for of mine that somehow didn't get saved was that I had to laugh when I saw you asking Perey/Samivel whether Eli Siegel killed himself, as though he would give you a straight answer, because I knew he wouldn't. He's entirely too predictable this way. And his failure to admit this because there is supposedly some question about it, while on the other hand he confidently asserts things as facts about which he has zero evidence of (e.g., that Ellen Mali is behind my website) is a little hypocritical, to say the least -- and one of the reasons why mediation is pointless.
I will not consider mediation again unless Perey/Samivel shows good faith by admitting that ELI SIEGEL KILLED HIMSELF. Let me quote Samivel/Perey himself on his Countering the Lies website:
Okay, Perey, if I'm LYING by saying that AR members have refused to reveal how Siegel died, then HOW DID THEY SAY HE DIED?! You say I'm lying by saying that you've refused to say how he died? Oh, I'm so sorry, please show me EXACTLY WHERE you or the others say EXACTLY HOW he died. I'm waiting.
Now you're saying, "I was not there and am not in a position to say definitely what happened." Geez, will you decide which side of this debate you're going to take? You're trying to take so many different positions to refute me that they're contradicting each other.
You bandy about the word "liar" like it was candy. But you know how Eli Siegel died. You know this because it was planned for a long time, and that the plan was discussed intensely within the group, and that prescription drugs were procured expessly for this purpose. (Do you deny any of these things?) Can you admit to Siegel's plan to take his life and his obvious success in doing so? If not, then stop saying I'm a liar for pointing out that you and the AR people won't come clean about Siegel's death. And don't expect me to mediate unil you do. Michaelbluejay 05:22, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Once again, I can't prevent you from proceeding to arbitration, but I urge you to calm down, take a step back, and try to resolve this in a civil fashion. Andre ( talk) 20:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
No deal. I've spelled out repeatedly what it would take for me to continue mediation, and you're not even *close* to there yet. I'm going to stop repeating myself on this and other topics. And I'm going to start editing the article again. Michaelbluejay 00:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but until Perey stops pussy-footing around Eli Siegel's suicide then I can't believe that he's willing to discuss things honestly. Also, he's had so, so, so many chances to work with the editors on the article responsibly but he prefers to just shout LIAR LIAR LIAR at every opportunity. I've finally exceeded my tolerance for that particular insult/smear. It's a point of personal pride for me that among those who know me and my work my honesty and integrity are well-known. I'm just no longer willing to sit still (much less cooperate) with someone who calls me a liar every other sentence. Maybe he's promising not to do so now, but it's too late for that, he missed the last several dozen chances he had, since my tolerance is all used up. That plus his unwillingness to come clean about Siegel's suicide (plus his long history of unreasonable and irresponsible edits and argumentation) tells me that mediation is beyond fruitless. I'm going to just start editing the article again, and I trust that the other responsible editors here will support a proper article rather than Perey's AR propaganda. In the unlikely event that that doesn't work, then I'll seek arbitration. Michaelbluejay 03:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Apparently my modest mediation skills have been fairly ineffective thus far. I thought a brief hiatus might give me more insight into the matter, but it has not done. May I suggest an IRC/otherwise live mediation? I think it may be productive. Andre ( talk) 00:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)