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Tony Sidaway is often incivil, does not respond well to criticism, and tends to ignore problems that people may have with him.
Tony Sidaway is frequently incivil and belligerent to users who disagree with him, and has on several occasions made personal attacks against such users. He frequently calling claims that do not match his opinion "patently false" or "idiocy", when such claims are either misunderstood by Tony, or a matter of differing opinion.
When Tony's actions are questioned by other users, he frequently responds by telling that user to "stop making false accusations", by denying the incident, or by attacking the user who brought it up. In general he tends to be unwilling to discuss problems that may exist with his behavior, or to reach a compromise over them.
Finally, Tony has made several claims that there are no problems with his behavior and that any complaints against him should not be taken seriously, and sometimes lectures people on good behavior when his own behavior goes against the very advice he gives.
Incivility and personal attacks
Responding badly to criticism
Stating there are no problems
Lecturing other people on behavior but not heeding his own advice
Tony is probably one of the biggest threats to Wikipedia these days. He is hostile towards others and abuses his position as an administrator to push his own POV. He is unwilling to listen to other opinions or accept criticism. Anyone who questions his actions is not only automatically wrong, but typically an "idiot". He has violated consensus on many occasions prefering to go with his own POV instead, typically justifying it by saying that many of the consensus votes were "idiotic" or something similar. He is abusive to other users, and refuses to qualify decisions he has made:
I am perfectly capable of going through every single one of Radiant's other points an demonstrating how--with a succession of often quite breathtaking bits of illogic, and marshalling citations to edits that don't say at all what he claims they say, he's managed to mire himself into believing that he's proven me to to be wrong. But actually I don't have to do that
As can be seen, others are wrong simply by default and in his arrogance he feels no need to actually justify his position. As a user this behavior would be reprehensible in it's own regard. As an administrator it constitutes a violation of the power, authority and trust instilled in him by the community. His actions go too far and something needs to be done to let him know that his arrogant, abusive behavior is not befitting an administrator before he drives more good users from Wikipedia. Agriculture 13:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony is an editor who I have a good deal of respect, perhaps even admiration, for. His contributions to this encyclopedia are undeniable. He frequently comes across as arrogant and condescending; additionally, over the last few weeks I've been tempted to resign my adminship because of our encounters, on the basis that I must have seriously violated sysop procedure (in dealing with Maoririder) for him to be so livid with me. Eventually, I decided that I hadn't done anything horrible, and he must be personally disgusted with me for some slight. Now, though, I'm rather indifferent to his outbursts because I've found that my confidence in him as an administrator has been badly damaged. Having said all that, I think that his apology settles the matter, and I'm willing to drop it.-- Scimitar parley 14:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC) Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I don't want this to be a "hang Tony" party. I have had the experience of polite disagreements with Tony on his talk page and on mine on a number of issues. I have joined this RFC not because of individual incidences of hostile language but because of an overall dismissal of other opinions on his use of admin powers. Tony believes that VfU/DR/VfD is only for those who cannot WP:IAR and delete/undelete what he does/doesn't think belongs despite no policy allowing it and large consensus against it. I have suggested with Tony that he propose new policy changes to CSD to allow the things he wants to delete outside of policy. He has dismissed this idea and prefers to delete because he can and thinks his opinion is sufficient to override policy. (I'll find and add this discussion to the above.) Tony disrespects consensus and others opinions in a way that leaves those disagreeing with him feeling like Tony's opinion matters more than theirs, even in numbers. I would like this RfC to result in directing Tony to follow all policies (and not interrupt any that are in progress by taking unilateral actions) and respect all consensus and not WP:IAR. (In effect, ask Tony to be an administrator and not a unilateral sysop.) Tony's disrespectful language is a small matter compared to disrespectful actions.
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Supporting information. (Requested by Tony Sidaway):
Tony felt that deleting worthless advertisements should be at the Admin's discretion (without a rule or policy allowing it) and I suggested that Tony propose a change to CSD to allow this as a speedy deletion. [30] Tony did not want it added as an undisputed rule in CSD since Tony thought some were useful and could be cleaned up. I suggested that the new rule would not mandate deletion but leaves it at the discretion of the admin. [31] (Tony felt this was taunting. The style was one of asking questions and moving to the next question without awaiting answers.) When Tony refused this idea [32] I stated that Tony didn't want it as a rule but wanted to do what Tony felt should be done and not have to adhere to a policy. [33] Tony responded "that discretion, by its nature, cannot be legislated". [34] (Hopefully all my cut-and-pasting came out right.) - Tεx τ urε 22:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Although from the start I had concerns about the validity and motivation of this RFC due to certian factors, I generally feel that unless an RFC is completely invalid, we should avoid Meta discussions inside RFCs. I think there are some reasonable points to be made about Tony's choice in words, so although I share some concerns with Sjakkalle below, I left the meta discussion out of my view. However, it has since come to my attention that Radient has been specifically targeting users who have had disagreements with Tony and is asking them (and only them) to come comment. I believe this behavior will cause the RFC to represent a higly slanted and inaccurate perspective, thus potentially causing it to become entirely invalid. Please see my comment on User_talk:Radiant!#Your_RFC_on_Tony. -- Gmaxwell 17:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
If I wanted to be anal about this, I'd say that at the top of the page it clearly says that "at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users."
So technically, this kind of pot-luck RfC, involving multiple disputes, is invalid. Nevertheless I've found it most illuminating, and frankly have been very gratified at how highly I'm regarded, while appropriately chastened at the sections that I view as legitimate criticism. Others in the various disputes have of course been uncivil, sometimes far more than I, but that doesn't excuse my own incivility. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.
I completely concur with Agriculture and Radiant that I am frequently uncivil. I have given a good account of my differences with those to whom I have been uncivil, but those often good reasons for disagreement, up to and including personal attacks on myself, do not excuse my dealing with others in an uncivil manner.
I therefore tender an apology to all for any act of uncivility. Specific cases may be dealt with on my user talk page where I undertake to make amends.
There is no excuse for incivility on Wikipedia.
On matters other than civility I find myself in complete disagreement with the proponents. The case has been worked over several times, and currently says that when face with problems dismiss them as "patently false" and ask those approaching me to "stop making false accusations." Actually this is only something that I say when approached with a patently false accusation. It does not help Wikipedia to represent falsehoods as truth. A good example of such a falsehood is: "Finally, Tony has made several claims that there are no problems with his behavior and that any complaints against him should not be taken seriously." Utter nonsense. Rubbish. I have said no such thing.
Even when I have acted unilaterally my actions have been confirmed by the subsequent consensus or decision. I think that the outside views that I have chosen to endorse most fairly represent the situation, and lacking not for defenders, I will in general let their voices speak for me. Remember, just because you disagree with somebody's action, doesn't mean that he is wrong. Just because you weren't satisfied with somebody's answer, doesn't mean that he didn't adequately explain himself. It is a corollary of our civility policy that we must not hold our disagreements against one another. I think Kelly put it best: "I would suggest that if you find yourself offended at what Tony has to say, perhaps you should think about why he's saying what's he's saying and look into yourself to see what you have been doing wrong." There is a subtle distinction there between what I say and how I say it. I promise to work harder on the latter.
One person in this case has responded to my request that he back up his claim that I have undeleted articles contrary to consensus. He posted a massive and unsightly table on my talk page, which I summarised and responded to in detail. Rather than take this response, he now falsely claims that I have removed evidence. This is a completely unacceptable withdrawal of good faith, and a failure to address my points. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
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This is ridiculous.
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Tony and Scimitar recognise that their discussion of the Maoririder affair became overheated, both sides acted in a defensive manner but now recognise that the best thing for Wikipedia is to set recriminations aside and permit the Arbitration Committee to do its job in the current investigation of the Maoririder case. Each one recognises that the other is a good administrator and editor and no finding in the Maoririder case will change this.
Just because a user is outraged does not, by itself, mean they are being uncivil. In the cited cases above, Tony was clearly expressing outrage at, well, outrage worthy situations. It is important that we preserve the ability for users to criticize, even with intense words, where it is warranted. If Tony has been issuing more criticism than most lately, it is because he's been digging into some of the more controversial, error prone, and ill-considered-action attracting parts of Wikipedia. It is regrettable that in some cases such criticism may be received harsher than they were intended and that feelings may have been hurt. In some cases this may have been avoided if Tony spent a minute more in consideration before hitting save. Some users have thinner skin than others, and a simple rewording can often avoid pushing buttons. However, Tony has been quite willing to apologize in such situations, and discuss things to make them right. Especially in situations involving established editors and known controversial and heated subjects, this is really the most important factor. His cooperation with other editors, even ones he disagrees with, are a testament to his reasonableness and good faith.
Tony Sidaway is a Top Bloke.
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I fear that I might be speculating here, and at times failing to assume good faith, but I will try to sum up some of my feelings around this battlefield.
First, I think that although this RFC puts civility or lack the thereof as the reason it was filed, I think it is really motivated just as much, if not more by annoyance of Tony Sidaway's administrerial actions, in particular some of his undeletions which have been controversial. Because of that, my view will include some of my thoughts on the matter.
Second, I disagree completely the statement by Agriculture that "Tony is probably one of the biggest threats to Wikipedia these days". He certainly has some very strong views, has done some very controversial things, but he is here in good faith.
Now, on the civility issue, the quotes cited are incivil. End of question, they would have been better left unsaid. We should also be aware of that Tony has been the subject of quite a bit of incivility himself. In particular the vandal sockpuppet IgnoreAllRules was uncalled for.
There was an incident on October 19 at the WP:ANI which I think needs some discussion, because it seems to be the run-up to this RFC. It can be viewed at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Not_a_3RR_block, (Note that such a post might be archived at some point in the near future.) Some things to take into account here which were not mentioned in the RFC.
Now on the question of admin actions. The last case was the case of the Albert M. Wolters article, which Tony undeleted based on the pretence of WP:IAR. This thing was out of process, hence I suppose Tony's reference to WP:IAR. Now, my view on this, is that this is an abuse of WP:IAR. Even though I supported the undeletion of the article, and the inclusion of the article at the deletion debate, it was out of process to undelete it so soon. When DESiegel tagged the article for speedy deletion, I made an error in removing the deletion-tag and not speedying it. I apologize for it.
WP:IAR is not supposed to be a carte blanche for doing whatever you like when the rules don't suit you. It is supposed to mean that you should not follow policy, just for the sake of following policy, that if something clearly right is not mandated by the rules, the red tape should not get in the way. In this instance a number of users, in good faith, voted "keep deleted" and wanted the article to be in a deleted state. The undeletion debate should have been allowed to go its course for five days, and then undeleted if a majority supported it.
I might mention the last time I got into a heated dispute over out-of-process deletions and undeletions was in the circus of the Historical persecution by Jews. Clearly in that case, breaking the process and ignoring all rules to do what one admin and a number of other users thought would lead to the correct result (the deletion of the article) did not do any good. In that case, Tony correctly protested vehemently against this.
Now, many of Tony's actions are controversial, but arguably reasonable. The first RFC against Tony dealt with his closing of deletion debates. I endorsed that document, because I think that his actions there were for the most part within the bounds of reason. His "binary" view of AFD closing is in fact also endorsed by myself, albeit in a somewhat milder form.
I think that Tony's critics would get further if they concentrated on the things which clearly are out of process. Things like the recreation of Systemwars.com are among those. Adding complaints about actions which are controversial, but within the bounds of reason only lend credence to Tony's case: that his critics are out to criticize each and every move he makes, and that they are so rabied that he doesn't have to take them into account anyway. I would suggest to Tony that many of the criticisms made against him are in fact reasonable and should not be dismissed simply as being made by foaming-at-the-mouth enemies. I would suggest to his crtics that they listen to what he says, and be ready to embrace some of it, because much of what Tony says is reasonable as well.
A final thing I would like to say about this RFC is that I very much doubt that it is a real attempt at coming to agreement with Tony. I think it is to gather support for a view that Tony is a rogue admin, one who ought to be deadminned. In my view, calling for mediation by the MedCom would have been more helpful than the RFC.
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I agree that Tony has been uncivil, and I agree that he seems to have a problem with his authority. I am hesitant to endorse this RFC as I am not wholely familiar with the process itself and I do not want to see any punative action taken against someone who appears to be a good editor, with a simply character flaw. TheChief (PowWow) 15:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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I have talked with Tony on his talk page about this issue and I feel that he is not taking the issue seriously. While I continue to feel that it is not right for me to endorse the RfC here I feel others should read our conversation. Tony is unrepentant, refuses to acknowledge the problem, and continues to try and hoist the blame for his attitude and conduct onto others using indefensible arguments. If he is unwilling to use this RfC as a catharsis for change, introspection, and reevaluation of his behavior I feel we are accomplishing very little. I find it very disturbing that an administrator can act as he does. Someone in a position of power who refuses to acknowledge personal problems and deal with them gives carte blanche to regular users to follow their example and dilutes the power of other administrators by not setting a good example. The first step in an issue such as this involves the party in question admitting to the problem at hand. As Tony refuses even to do this, I am at a loss for suggestions for further constructive dialog with him on the issue. TheChief (PowWow) 16:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
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With Tony I can no longer assume good faith. -- File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 15:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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I've known Tony for many years, and my comments here will be colored by that experience. Tony tends to become very passionate about things he believes in, and especially in fighting against what he feels are injustices. In this case, Tony feels very strongly that other people are doing stupid (and, yes, I mean stupid; this is clearly how Tony feels about what's going on) things on the Wikipedia, and he's campaigning to minimize the impact of those stupid things as well as to get them to stop. His actions are entirely in good faith and are, in his view, in the best interest of the encyclopedia. Tony is one of Wikipedia's greatest assets; he is certainly not one of its greatest threats. His words were in righteous anger at those he perceives are harming the encyclopedia itself, or harming the community which writes the encyclopedia, and I cannot bring myself to fault him for them, even if they were at times somewhat over the top. Tony has a special talent for analyzing problems, finding their causes, and striking boldly at their roots to resolve them; Wikipedia would be far the worse for his absence. I would suggest that if you find yourself offended at what Tony has to say, perhaps you should think about why he's saying what's he's saying and look into yourself to see what you have been doing wrong.
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I had my first conversation with Mr. Sidaway over the Wolters article, a communication which became quite extensive. I too found him unduly harsh, condescending, and resolute to the point of obtuseness. He was quite frank in admitting to be egocentric ("Of course IAR is egocentric! You need to be an egomaniac to use it, and a very accomplished one to get away with it.") [45]
Others users have suggested that Mr. Sidaway is the subject of regular attacks from a set of known opponents; whether this is true, I cannot say, but I certainly cannot be considered such. Prior to this exchange with Mr. Sidaway, I held him in high regard from afar as a dedicated, hard-working editor. I'll take him at his word, and hope the apology indicates a real intent to try to improve his communication style. As an editor, there is no doubt he contributes to Wikipedia's betterment.
Having said that, I personally believe that someone with an admitted tendency to incivility is not good administrative material. Like Scimitar, I feel Mr. Sidaway's harshness (and his pattern of what I consider IAR abuse) has gravely damaged his reputation as an administrator, and I personally have almost no confidence in his abilities in that capacity. Xoloz 16:05, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony is a significant and valuable contributor to the project. But I've also seen Tony lose perspective and act unilaterally, flouting community consensus when pursuing editors he perceives to be damaging the project.
For example, the results of Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mel_Etitis show that Tony's view was in the minority and there was broad consensus that Mel's actions were in response to vandalism. Yet within a day or so Tony was at User_talk:Mel_Etitis and had lost sight of the fact that edit wars are not more harmful than personal attacks and bullying. He publicly attacked Mel as being "dishonest" and completely ignored or brushed aside calls for him to abide by the consensus of the RfC and drop the matter, and to either present evidence supporting his allegation or apologize to Mel. This while promoting the impression that his actions represented the community, something not reflected by the results of the RfC.
An administrator occasionally acting unilaterally, exaggerating, dismissing community consensus, and losing perspective is not the most pressing of issues, considering all that goes on at Wikipedia. Yet when it becomes disruptive, or causes a fellow valued editor to taper-off his contributions, as in the case with Mel, a gentle reminder is order. Hopefully Tony will thoughtfully consider all comments in this RfC in a constructive manner and put them to positive use. Tony, I'm quoting your own recent words here: Don't desperately cast around on one hand to find someone else to blame, and on the other hand try to minimize the harm that you've done; it isn't pretty. Also: Don't be melodramatic. Just take your medicine and don't do it again. [46]. I mean this as the gentlest of reproaches.
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What sucks the worst about this RFC is that it is encouraging further tension, factionalism and voting rather than looking at simple laissez-faire solutions to problems. (Laissez-faire, by the way, needs more expansion regarding it's applications in social policy. Right now, it's almost exclusively an economics article.)
Incidentally, this is the exact same thing that Tony Sidaway is being criticized for fighting against over the course of the last several months. There is clearly a not-actually-organized group of well intentioned users who try to codify every aspect of Wikipedia into rigid rulesets rather than simply experiencing the joy of editing and staying the hell out of each others' way.
Courtesy is a whole lot easier to offer if you don't have a group of Wikilawyers trying to put everyone in lockstep. Fighting the calcification of Wikipedia is something every user should thank Tony for, as so many others don't have the stamina to keep up with the incessant drive of those whose preferences seem to be wiki-politics and codification of the community rules over building the encyclopedia.
(Do you get the sense that this also applies to AfD and VFU, where people don't seem to be willing to get out of each others' way for the sake of the community that's building the encyclopedia? If you do, you get my point. If there's a group of a few users of obvious good faith who think content is useful, then get the hell out of their way. You don't need to enforce your opinions on every corner of the place where there are no practical limits to the dataset. Just skim off the real garbage and vandalism and see what develops by the efforts of those working in their own areas of interest.)
As is clear above, I welcome Tony's efforts, and don't think they are misplaced. However, Tony should apologize for the discourtesies he's used along the way. I recommend an offer of a good faith, referenced edit to an article of each offended party's choice as proof of sincerity, but this is not a demand.
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Looking at this RFC, it is generating much tension, factionalism and voting. But we must not lose sight of this important lesson: It is extremely crucial for Tony to follow the civility policy at all times because he is a prominent, active user who has become one of the significant faces of Wikipedia. In fact, I sincerely hope that he literally posts a note to himself of this lesson next to his computer. Because I am deeply concerned that frequent incivil outbursts from any prominent, highly active admin might damage Wikipedia's reputation. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony Sidaway is a good editor, we can all agree on that. However, as Zzyzx11 points out, he has become one of the public faces of Wikipedia, due to his administrator status. While adminship is not a big deal, it does come with some responsibilities, and one of the most important ones is to be a good example for other editors. Tony has given plenty of good examples, but the summary undeletion at Woodroffe Avenue's entry on Deletion review isn't one of them. It even made me momentarily lose my head and vote out of spite in that article. My point is that administrators have a de facto requirement of doing everything we as a community expect of all users. One of those expectations is to engage in discussion with other uses, and not to unilaterally perform any action that might upset the work of other uses without discussing it first. Tony, I am completely sure that you only mean the best for Wikipedia; however, if there's something I would like you to remember from all of this is that Ignore all rules does not mean Ignore all discussion. Outside of that, you're doing a good job.
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Tony is a good editor and I feel that he does act in good faith. However, I also feel that he occasionally is uncivil — as others have documented — including a few times with me: Davenbelle up to his old tricks and This [is] the most revolting bit of gratuitous nastiness I have seen from you. Utterly beyond belief.
My primary concern with Tony's conduct on wikipedia is his befriending and protecting problem users well after it is obvious that they are a problem. I refer specifically to the arbitrations in which I've been involved with
User:Trey Stone and
User:Cool Cat.
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This RfC is outragious and in no way (I can see) does it benefit wikipedia. I protest the very existance of this RfC at the highest degree it fits civility. -- Cool Cat Talk 04:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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This is a particularly difficult case, and I've ended up endorsing a range of views here. I have little doubt that Tony means well and is acting in good faith here, and to that end I think Kelly Martin summed it up quite nicely. I also agree that his presence here - though this has lessened markedly lately - has been quite helpful to Wikipedia. At the same time, I'm sick and tired of the righteous incivility, and the unnecessarily controversial actions with little regard for consensus or playing nicely with others. This would be easily enough solved if Tony tried to treat others with respect (which I notice that he has pledged to do in the future) and talked controversial proposals over instead of doing them unilaterally. It might also be helped by Tony - and other parties involved in these frequent battles - calming down a bit and dropping the constant fixation on deletion issues at the expense of all else. We're here to write an encyclopedia, and frankly, if all you're doing is fighting inclusion-deletion battles, you're really not helping us much. I've become fairly cynical about all of this changing, but who knows, I might be surprised. Ambi 09:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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You can see from the above comments a pattern of arrogance, hostitility, and a double standard. The first contentious article I edited on the Wikipedia was Terri Schiavo.
This interaction was instructive to me as to why many wikipedia contributors choose to remain anonymous and how Wiki-intimidation works.
I know what the consensus of the cabal is that all this arrogance, hostility, and double standards are necessary to enable the Tony Sidaway's of the Wikipedia to deal with the patsw's of the Wikipedia. The problem with double standards like they deserved it, of course, applies only when you are not part of the "they" on the receiving end. So does the Wikipedia work on policies and guidelines or smart people who condsider themselves above the policies and guidelines that only apply to the little people? When they deserve it, does anything go?
I'm just thankful that every so often there arises an opportunity to hold this behavior up to wider scrutiny. I'm not Tony's victim. Perhaps the cabal considers this rough treatment described above as a rite of passage for a newbie which I was in April 2005. patsw 16:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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If you hang around articles that are politically charged, WP:AFD, WP:VFU and similar Wiki namespace areas as much as Tony does, you're bound to end up getting in a disagreement or have another editor end up argueing with you at some point in time or another. I won't contest that Tony may have come across to some as arrogant, condescending or authoritarian, and may have not followed all the proper procedures all the time, but I will contest that he did so maliciously and or with callous disregard for his fellow editors. I first encountered Tony in never ending arguments (mostly my bad) over in the George W Bush talk pages...and in the face of my rather blunt and sometimes hostile demeanor then, Tony was the voice of calm. At times, I am suprised he didn't file an RFC against me, but realize now that he didn't because he isn't petty, and he is able to admit that he may not always be right, just as he has done in statements made here. The difference between the working relationship Tony and I have compared to those that have endorsed this RFC and Tony, was a result of us both listening to each other and relying on talk pages and a belief that a good dose of civility can make a big difference. That's my prescription in this matter as well. MONGO 16:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony does get carried away at times, and it would be advisable for him to tone down some of his remarks. Having said that, I don't believe that his strongly worded comments (most of which — including the examples cited above — are justified) have escalated to a level of incivility warranting this RfC.
As noted by others, Tony participates in many controversial goings-on. His handling thereof is nothing short of commendable, as he consistently applies the same set of standards to every situation (irrespective of what/who is involved). In some cases, Tony is one of relatively few users to challenge the common sense-defying bureaucracy that plagues our community (and damages the integrity of the encyclopedia). As such, it isn't surprising that he steps on a few toes along the way. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Tony (which I sometimes do), it's abundantly clear that his actions (including the controversial ones) are made in good faith.
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Tony Sidaway is a very good admin, a WP:COOL guy but he is only a human like the rest of the good contributors here (apart from the bots).
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There's no denying that Tony Sidaway has a tendency to explode with indignation and become offensive, generally followed by an iron-clad stubborn refusal to back down, however obviously he's overstepped the mark or simply got things wrong. I've experienced it myself, a some have pointed out here. Perfectly true, of course, that that's human (did anyone suggest otherwise, though), and certainly not the biggest threat to Wikipedia; no more than a very, very minor threat if that. What worries me about this RfC is rather the reaction of others. In the face of the evidence, and even though he himself has accepted that he has been uncivil, and has apologised (generally rather than individually, but still, many of his supporters have blindly denied that he's been anything but courteous under fire. Instead of comments like: "yes, he's made mistakes, but this RfC is an overreaction", or the like, we see: "leave the poor mite alone, he's a little angel". It's that lack of judgement on the part of editors, including admins and ArbCom members, that worries me, and to my mind constitutes a much greater threat to Wikipedia than T.S.'s outbursts.
In my own case, I see that some of those same people are occasionally still referring to my "biting newbies", etc., despite the fact that there was no evidence for this, and a pile of evidence to show that I'd done no such thing, but had explained Wikipedia policies and guidelines at length and repeatedly, and tried to sort matters out civilly and sensibly. So the lack of judgement in T.S.'s case isn't completely blind, but adjusts to cases (and, more significantly, to people); T.S. pleads guilty and is defended as having done no wrong, while I provide evidence of my innocence and am attacked as having offended grievously.
These are just two cases; there are many more examples. I don't know what the root is – shared politics, or financial inetrests, or personal friendship, or something I've not thought of – but what's especially worrying is that there's so little attempt to hide the behaviour. But why should there be? What can anyone do to stop it?
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In an early comment above Tony calls this a "pot-luck" RfC. I tend to agree. Let's all get this on the brain same dispute with a single user. Who is the offended party? What, precisely, is the dispute? I'm not saying that people haven't raised legitimate complaints about his behaviour, but what exactly is the focus of this? This is in some ways a meta-wiki comment, but I often stumble across these RfCs and wonder what the f--- is the point beyond allowing bitterness to accrue in a single spot. Cite a specific dispute before starting up these random shooting matches. Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This may well be condemned as fishing for additional conflict, or a pointless restatement of already-expressed ideas, but please accept my assurances that it's not intended as such. There's ample evidence (and his own admission) that Tony has problems with civility. Combine that with his attraction to controversy, and you've got a volatile situation. I think the ability to stay cool is essential for an administrator, and to me this means Tony should give up his adminship. I'm not saying he's a bad editor or that the project is better off without him, I'm simply saying he should not be an administrator right now.
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Why is this ok but my much more gentle proposal removed? "Rubbish", "Ought to be ashamed", etc?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
01:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
My only guess at to why this RfC is happening must be something to do with
Luigi30's Law. The longer you are in the thick of things, like Tony has been, the more likely you are to become desensitized and myopic to issues that you've heard time and time again. However, unlike many other users paralyzed by the effects of "long in the tooth hubris", Tony can step back from an issue and find a way to work constructively if he feels he went too far, as I learned at
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Maoririder/Evidence once he realized I was acting under
WP:AGF.
Since then, he's been a valued asset to my growth within Wikipedia, and even though I disagree with his opinion on
WP:IAR, we'd be losing a great part of our community if he left and I ask everybody here to try and help him out if it seems like any potential heated arguments happen again, as I hope we can all do for each other.
Karmafist 18:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I rescind my comment here.
karmafist
22:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
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I look at the Albert M. Wolters discussion on this RfC's talk page and I clearly see people trying to work together for the betterment of Wikipedia. Trying to make a collective decision as per Wikipedia:Consensus. At the point where Tony joined into this discussion, qualified statements about "not repeating AfD" are in fact tendered, but good sense was also being displayed and the discussion was happily moving in the direction that Tony prefered. Tony, for reasons that are still unclear to me, choose to abandon this, and engage in a little bit of revert warring and raise no small amount of bad blood.
When I look over Tony's contributions, especially those areas where Tony has received praise, I see page protection and adding of editorial content. Neither one nor the other of these requires Tony to interact heavily with other users, I am quick to note. Also, several people have praised Tony for his gentle treatment of people new to Wikipedia. Again, this does not require Tony to engage in debate, nor to accept any feedback on his behaviour.
The areas where Tony seems to have difficulty are in working as equals with people whose views happen to differ from his own. I understand that it is frustrating for Tony when people don't see things the way that Tony does, and can be maddening when attempts to sway them are unsuccessful. I also understand that it is often easier to kill the messenger than accept an unpalatable message.
I understand that deletion is a particular bone of contention with Tony, and I'm sorry to bring it up again. It serves, however, as an excellent example of the sort of problems that have led to this RfC. Tony initially took some part in the discussion of changes from "Vote for Undeletion" to "Deletion Review". When Tony dropped out of that discussion, I urged him to remain involved, but Tony declined. When that discussion was completed and long after the changes were made, Tony engaged in an edit war over what Tony found unacceptable. Discussion has now moved on, and I credit Tony for the part he is taking in it.
When I examine his previous RfC I see strong support for his autonomy as an admin, but also quite a lot of discussions around how things could have been handled differently. The talk, in particular, has paragraph after paragraph of thoughtful commentary regarding how his conduct could be improved, as well as much strong support for Tony personally and for his actions as an admin. Despite some incivility scattered around, it was a nuanced, positive outcome. Tony appears, however, either unable or unwilling to see the complexities, and prefers to think of it as a victory.
As I watch this RfC unfold, something similar appears to be happening. Like an oyster turning painful grit into a pearl, every criticism, whether carefully worded or woefully intemperate, only adds another layer to his victory.
A word that I see used with frightening regularity by Tony is "false". Tony defends his paradigm with great vigour, and denounces as falsehood things that challenge it. I believe that his binary view of AfD outcomes is, in fact, simply a representation of his binary view on life. Any RfC that doesn't utterly destroy him is a victory, any outlook that does not parallel his own is falsehood. his reductionist factionionalisation of contributors as "deletionists" is simply another facet of this same behaviour.
I understand that life-long habits are very hard to change. I also understand that, at some level, this must be very painful for Tony. It's no fun for anyone else, either. I also see that many of those who defend Tony so strongly often are forced to resort to the same anti-intellectual, divisive, binary language.
I've attempted on several occasion to reconcile my differences with Tony, and will do so again. I'd ask that Tony take the very difficult step of understanding that there are no "sides" here, that both the world and Wikipedia are full of shades of grey. I'd ask that Tony attempt to stop viewing things as "blatant falsehoods" or "ridiculous calumny". I'd ask that Tony set aside his love of a well turned phrase and engage those with whom he disagrees.
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As Tony has refused to appropriately deal with this RfC and indeed has said he will no longer read it, I move we bring this to the next level and file an ArbCom request. Agriculture 01:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
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The following interaction was one of my first interactions with Tony Talk:List_of_biomedical_terms. I spent a lot of time splitting this list from a giagantic A-Z info dump into smaller pages one for each letter in the alphabet. In the process of doing this I realised that this list was not encyclopedic and in fact a detriment to wikipedia since it would direct editors to produce redundent or non-relevent pages. Tony was not willing to accept the rationale for this deletion. Not only did he not listen to the arguments he put down those of us that instigated it. His quotes at the time: "Don't try to delete it ever again" "if the mind-numbing stupidity of the deletion isn't evident to everyone then there's no point" He also reminded us that one can "Fuck the rules" as he demonstrated. As a newbie at the time, I was close to packing up and leaving since this non collaborative and, frankly, hostile environment is not pleasant and NOT productive.
I then ran into him on several school deletion threads where he was acting in a similar manner. I have NEVER seen Tony compromise, except when the consensus is so much against him he has no option. Since i do not follow his every step in wikipedia, I could be very wrong on this issue, but from what i have seen he is more destructive to the process of building an encyclopedia than constructive. I mean this in the sense that he often frustrates valuable editors who are acting in good faith. I am sure Tony does a lot of positive for the encyclopedia and I would encourage him to keep those things up but I wonder how many other editors have left due to his dogmatic postion on most issues?
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I will restate the repeatedly stated and note that this is a difficult case. I have endorsed several outside views that try to address this issue in a nuanced way. I do have a few comments that I have not seen made.
The first is that I would suggest that Wikipedia: Ignore all rules should be deprecated, or viewed as a controversial guideline, like Delete Personal Attacks. (I would delete it, but I think I am in the minority there.) It can encourage strong-willed editors, such as Tony is, to be harsh and abrasive, as he is. There are certain Wikipedia rules that should never be ignored. They include civility, NPOV, and respect for consensus. There is room for disagreement on whether Tony has been "uncivil" and thus in violation of policy or simply harsh and abrasive. However, IAR should never be seen as allowing breaches of civility. There is room for disagreement on whether Tony has disregarded consensus. That allegation has been made. I would disagree, but would also say that the fact that it has been made repeatedly does mean that Tony should at least address such concerns. IAR should never be seen as encouraging disregard of consensus.
My second comment is that many, probably most, of the issues about Tony have involved deletion. Deletion questions are inherently controversial, and always will be. The problem is not simply that the deletion process is flawed or broken, although it does appear to be. The real problem is that there will never be any consensus on deletion. Any deletion question involves conflicts in philosophical concepts of what Wikipedia is and should be. Since there will never be consensus, civility is even more important than elsewhere in Wikipedia. In most of the deletion disputes that have been cited that I have studied, it appears that Tony was both right and abrasive, and that being right did not warrant being abrasive. Admins who handle deletion have a special duty not just to try to be civil, but to be seen as being civil, and to avoid being abrasive.
In deletion questions, Tony may be the right admin in the wrong place. He can either change his style, or apply his considerable ability in other areas, such as page protection, that are not inherently controversial. It might be easier for him to change his area of emphasis than his style.
Tony has apologized, and has said that he will try to change his conduct so that it does not appear to be uncivil. I would also suggest that he consider avoiding the inherently controversial area of deletion, at least for a while. I think that would be a good resolution.
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Wow, this RfC is getting too big. I like Tony Sidaway, and I think he is doing what is best for Wikipedia, even if others don't like it. While some things on his part may be incivil, in think two RfCs and an overkill debate is getting tiring.
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In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 08:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC).
Tony Sidaway is often incivil, does not respond well to criticism, and tends to ignore problems that people may have with him.
Tony Sidaway is frequently incivil and belligerent to users who disagree with him, and has on several occasions made personal attacks against such users. He frequently calling claims that do not match his opinion "patently false" or "idiocy", when such claims are either misunderstood by Tony, or a matter of differing opinion.
When Tony's actions are questioned by other users, he frequently responds by telling that user to "stop making false accusations", by denying the incident, or by attacking the user who brought it up. In general he tends to be unwilling to discuss problems that may exist with his behavior, or to reach a compromise over them.
Finally, Tony has made several claims that there are no problems with his behavior and that any complaints against him should not be taken seriously, and sometimes lectures people on good behavior when his own behavior goes against the very advice he gives.
Incivility and personal attacks
Responding badly to criticism
Stating there are no problems
Lecturing other people on behavior but not heeding his own advice
Tony is probably one of the biggest threats to Wikipedia these days. He is hostile towards others and abuses his position as an administrator to push his own POV. He is unwilling to listen to other opinions or accept criticism. Anyone who questions his actions is not only automatically wrong, but typically an "idiot". He has violated consensus on many occasions prefering to go with his own POV instead, typically justifying it by saying that many of the consensus votes were "idiotic" or something similar. He is abusive to other users, and refuses to qualify decisions he has made:
I am perfectly capable of going through every single one of Radiant's other points an demonstrating how--with a succession of often quite breathtaking bits of illogic, and marshalling citations to edits that don't say at all what he claims they say, he's managed to mire himself into believing that he's proven me to to be wrong. But actually I don't have to do that
As can be seen, others are wrong simply by default and in his arrogance he feels no need to actually justify his position. As a user this behavior would be reprehensible in it's own regard. As an administrator it constitutes a violation of the power, authority and trust instilled in him by the community. His actions go too far and something needs to be done to let him know that his arrogant, abusive behavior is not befitting an administrator before he drives more good users from Wikipedia. Agriculture 13:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony is an editor who I have a good deal of respect, perhaps even admiration, for. His contributions to this encyclopedia are undeniable. He frequently comes across as arrogant and condescending; additionally, over the last few weeks I've been tempted to resign my adminship because of our encounters, on the basis that I must have seriously violated sysop procedure (in dealing with Maoririder) for him to be so livid with me. Eventually, I decided that I hadn't done anything horrible, and he must be personally disgusted with me for some slight. Now, though, I'm rather indifferent to his outbursts because I've found that my confidence in him as an administrator has been badly damaged. Having said all that, I think that his apology settles the matter, and I'm willing to drop it.-- Scimitar parley 14:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC) Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
I don't want this to be a "hang Tony" party. I have had the experience of polite disagreements with Tony on his talk page and on mine on a number of issues. I have joined this RFC not because of individual incidences of hostile language but because of an overall dismissal of other opinions on his use of admin powers. Tony believes that VfU/DR/VfD is only for those who cannot WP:IAR and delete/undelete what he does/doesn't think belongs despite no policy allowing it and large consensus against it. I have suggested with Tony that he propose new policy changes to CSD to allow the things he wants to delete outside of policy. He has dismissed this idea and prefers to delete because he can and thinks his opinion is sufficient to override policy. (I'll find and add this discussion to the above.) Tony disrespects consensus and others opinions in a way that leaves those disagreeing with him feeling like Tony's opinion matters more than theirs, even in numbers. I would like this RfC to result in directing Tony to follow all policies (and not interrupt any that are in progress by taking unilateral actions) and respect all consensus and not WP:IAR. (In effect, ask Tony to be an administrator and not a unilateral sysop.) Tony's disrespectful language is a small matter compared to disrespectful actions.
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Supporting information. (Requested by Tony Sidaway):
Tony felt that deleting worthless advertisements should be at the Admin's discretion (without a rule or policy allowing it) and I suggested that Tony propose a change to CSD to allow this as a speedy deletion. [30] Tony did not want it added as an undisputed rule in CSD since Tony thought some were useful and could be cleaned up. I suggested that the new rule would not mandate deletion but leaves it at the discretion of the admin. [31] (Tony felt this was taunting. The style was one of asking questions and moving to the next question without awaiting answers.) When Tony refused this idea [32] I stated that Tony didn't want it as a rule but wanted to do what Tony felt should be done and not have to adhere to a policy. [33] Tony responded "that discretion, by its nature, cannot be legislated". [34] (Hopefully all my cut-and-pasting came out right.) - Tεx τ urε 22:41, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Although from the start I had concerns about the validity and motivation of this RFC due to certian factors, I generally feel that unless an RFC is completely invalid, we should avoid Meta discussions inside RFCs. I think there are some reasonable points to be made about Tony's choice in words, so although I share some concerns with Sjakkalle below, I left the meta discussion out of my view. However, it has since come to my attention that Radient has been specifically targeting users who have had disagreements with Tony and is asking them (and only them) to come comment. I believe this behavior will cause the RFC to represent a higly slanted and inaccurate perspective, thus potentially causing it to become entirely invalid. Please see my comment on User_talk:Radiant!#Your_RFC_on_Tony. -- Gmaxwell 17:25, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
If I wanted to be anal about this, I'd say that at the top of the page it clearly says that "at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users."
So technically, this kind of pot-luck RfC, involving multiple disputes, is invalid. Nevertheless I've found it most illuminating, and frankly have been very gratified at how highly I'm regarded, while appropriately chastened at the sections that I view as legitimate criticism. Others in the various disputes have of course been uncivil, sometimes far more than I, but that doesn't excuse my own incivility. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.
I completely concur with Agriculture and Radiant that I am frequently uncivil. I have given a good account of my differences with those to whom I have been uncivil, but those often good reasons for disagreement, up to and including personal attacks on myself, do not excuse my dealing with others in an uncivil manner.
I therefore tender an apology to all for any act of uncivility. Specific cases may be dealt with on my user talk page where I undertake to make amends.
There is no excuse for incivility on Wikipedia.
On matters other than civility I find myself in complete disagreement with the proponents. The case has been worked over several times, and currently says that when face with problems dismiss them as "patently false" and ask those approaching me to "stop making false accusations." Actually this is only something that I say when approached with a patently false accusation. It does not help Wikipedia to represent falsehoods as truth. A good example of such a falsehood is: "Finally, Tony has made several claims that there are no problems with his behavior and that any complaints against him should not be taken seriously." Utter nonsense. Rubbish. I have said no such thing.
Even when I have acted unilaterally my actions have been confirmed by the subsequent consensus or decision. I think that the outside views that I have chosen to endorse most fairly represent the situation, and lacking not for defenders, I will in general let their voices speak for me. Remember, just because you disagree with somebody's action, doesn't mean that he is wrong. Just because you weren't satisfied with somebody's answer, doesn't mean that he didn't adequately explain himself. It is a corollary of our civility policy that we must not hold our disagreements against one another. I think Kelly put it best: "I would suggest that if you find yourself offended at what Tony has to say, perhaps you should think about why he's saying what's he's saying and look into yourself to see what you have been doing wrong." There is a subtle distinction there between what I say and how I say it. I promise to work harder on the latter.
One person in this case has responded to my request that he back up his claim that I have undeleted articles contrary to consensus. He posted a massive and unsightly table on my talk page, which I summarised and responded to in detail. Rather than take this response, he now falsely claims that I have removed evidence. This is a completely unacceptable withdrawal of good faith, and a failure to address my points. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
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This is ridiculous.
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Tony and Scimitar recognise that their discussion of the Maoririder affair became overheated, both sides acted in a defensive manner but now recognise that the best thing for Wikipedia is to set recriminations aside and permit the Arbitration Committee to do its job in the current investigation of the Maoririder case. Each one recognises that the other is a good administrator and editor and no finding in the Maoririder case will change this.
Just because a user is outraged does not, by itself, mean they are being uncivil. In the cited cases above, Tony was clearly expressing outrage at, well, outrage worthy situations. It is important that we preserve the ability for users to criticize, even with intense words, where it is warranted. If Tony has been issuing more criticism than most lately, it is because he's been digging into some of the more controversial, error prone, and ill-considered-action attracting parts of Wikipedia. It is regrettable that in some cases such criticism may be received harsher than they were intended and that feelings may have been hurt. In some cases this may have been avoided if Tony spent a minute more in consideration before hitting save. Some users have thinner skin than others, and a simple rewording can often avoid pushing buttons. However, Tony has been quite willing to apologize in such situations, and discuss things to make them right. Especially in situations involving established editors and known controversial and heated subjects, this is really the most important factor. His cooperation with other editors, even ones he disagrees with, are a testament to his reasonableness and good faith.
Tony Sidaway is a Top Bloke.
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I fear that I might be speculating here, and at times failing to assume good faith, but I will try to sum up some of my feelings around this battlefield.
First, I think that although this RFC puts civility or lack the thereof as the reason it was filed, I think it is really motivated just as much, if not more by annoyance of Tony Sidaway's administrerial actions, in particular some of his undeletions which have been controversial. Because of that, my view will include some of my thoughts on the matter.
Second, I disagree completely the statement by Agriculture that "Tony is probably one of the biggest threats to Wikipedia these days". He certainly has some very strong views, has done some very controversial things, but he is here in good faith.
Now, on the civility issue, the quotes cited are incivil. End of question, they would have been better left unsaid. We should also be aware of that Tony has been the subject of quite a bit of incivility himself. In particular the vandal sockpuppet IgnoreAllRules was uncalled for.
There was an incident on October 19 at the WP:ANI which I think needs some discussion, because it seems to be the run-up to this RFC. It can be viewed at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Not_a_3RR_block, (Note that such a post might be archived at some point in the near future.) Some things to take into account here which were not mentioned in the RFC.
Now on the question of admin actions. The last case was the case of the Albert M. Wolters article, which Tony undeleted based on the pretence of WP:IAR. This thing was out of process, hence I suppose Tony's reference to WP:IAR. Now, my view on this, is that this is an abuse of WP:IAR. Even though I supported the undeletion of the article, and the inclusion of the article at the deletion debate, it was out of process to undelete it so soon. When DESiegel tagged the article for speedy deletion, I made an error in removing the deletion-tag and not speedying it. I apologize for it.
WP:IAR is not supposed to be a carte blanche for doing whatever you like when the rules don't suit you. It is supposed to mean that you should not follow policy, just for the sake of following policy, that if something clearly right is not mandated by the rules, the red tape should not get in the way. In this instance a number of users, in good faith, voted "keep deleted" and wanted the article to be in a deleted state. The undeletion debate should have been allowed to go its course for five days, and then undeleted if a majority supported it.
I might mention the last time I got into a heated dispute over out-of-process deletions and undeletions was in the circus of the Historical persecution by Jews. Clearly in that case, breaking the process and ignoring all rules to do what one admin and a number of other users thought would lead to the correct result (the deletion of the article) did not do any good. In that case, Tony correctly protested vehemently against this.
Now, many of Tony's actions are controversial, but arguably reasonable. The first RFC against Tony dealt with his closing of deletion debates. I endorsed that document, because I think that his actions there were for the most part within the bounds of reason. His "binary" view of AFD closing is in fact also endorsed by myself, albeit in a somewhat milder form.
I think that Tony's critics would get further if they concentrated on the things which clearly are out of process. Things like the recreation of Systemwars.com are among those. Adding complaints about actions which are controversial, but within the bounds of reason only lend credence to Tony's case: that his critics are out to criticize each and every move he makes, and that they are so rabied that he doesn't have to take them into account anyway. I would suggest to Tony that many of the criticisms made against him are in fact reasonable and should not be dismissed simply as being made by foaming-at-the-mouth enemies. I would suggest to his crtics that they listen to what he says, and be ready to embrace some of it, because much of what Tony says is reasonable as well.
A final thing I would like to say about this RFC is that I very much doubt that it is a real attempt at coming to agreement with Tony. I think it is to gather support for a view that Tony is a rogue admin, one who ought to be deadminned. In my view, calling for mediation by the MedCom would have been more helpful than the RFC.
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I agree that Tony has been uncivil, and I agree that he seems to have a problem with his authority. I am hesitant to endorse this RFC as I am not wholely familiar with the process itself and I do not want to see any punative action taken against someone who appears to be a good editor, with a simply character flaw. TheChief (PowWow) 15:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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I have talked with Tony on his talk page about this issue and I feel that he is not taking the issue seriously. While I continue to feel that it is not right for me to endorse the RfC here I feel others should read our conversation. Tony is unrepentant, refuses to acknowledge the problem, and continues to try and hoist the blame for his attitude and conduct onto others using indefensible arguments. If he is unwilling to use this RfC as a catharsis for change, introspection, and reevaluation of his behavior I feel we are accomplishing very little. I find it very disturbing that an administrator can act as he does. Someone in a position of power who refuses to acknowledge personal problems and deal with them gives carte blanche to regular users to follow their example and dilutes the power of other administrators by not setting a good example. The first step in an issue such as this involves the party in question admitting to the problem at hand. As Tony refuses even to do this, I am at a loss for suggestions for further constructive dialog with him on the issue. TheChief (PowWow) 16:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
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With Tony I can no longer assume good faith. -- File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 15:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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I've known Tony for many years, and my comments here will be colored by that experience. Tony tends to become very passionate about things he believes in, and especially in fighting against what he feels are injustices. In this case, Tony feels very strongly that other people are doing stupid (and, yes, I mean stupid; this is clearly how Tony feels about what's going on) things on the Wikipedia, and he's campaigning to minimize the impact of those stupid things as well as to get them to stop. His actions are entirely in good faith and are, in his view, in the best interest of the encyclopedia. Tony is one of Wikipedia's greatest assets; he is certainly not one of its greatest threats. His words were in righteous anger at those he perceives are harming the encyclopedia itself, or harming the community which writes the encyclopedia, and I cannot bring myself to fault him for them, even if they were at times somewhat over the top. Tony has a special talent for analyzing problems, finding their causes, and striking boldly at their roots to resolve them; Wikipedia would be far the worse for his absence. I would suggest that if you find yourself offended at what Tony has to say, perhaps you should think about why he's saying what's he's saying and look into yourself to see what you have been doing wrong.
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I had my first conversation with Mr. Sidaway over the Wolters article, a communication which became quite extensive. I too found him unduly harsh, condescending, and resolute to the point of obtuseness. He was quite frank in admitting to be egocentric ("Of course IAR is egocentric! You need to be an egomaniac to use it, and a very accomplished one to get away with it.") [45]
Others users have suggested that Mr. Sidaway is the subject of regular attacks from a set of known opponents; whether this is true, I cannot say, but I certainly cannot be considered such. Prior to this exchange with Mr. Sidaway, I held him in high regard from afar as a dedicated, hard-working editor. I'll take him at his word, and hope the apology indicates a real intent to try to improve his communication style. As an editor, there is no doubt he contributes to Wikipedia's betterment.
Having said that, I personally believe that someone with an admitted tendency to incivility is not good administrative material. Like Scimitar, I feel Mr. Sidaway's harshness (and his pattern of what I consider IAR abuse) has gravely damaged his reputation as an administrator, and I personally have almost no confidence in his abilities in that capacity. Xoloz 16:05, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony is a significant and valuable contributor to the project. But I've also seen Tony lose perspective and act unilaterally, flouting community consensus when pursuing editors he perceives to be damaging the project.
For example, the results of Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Mel_Etitis show that Tony's view was in the minority and there was broad consensus that Mel's actions were in response to vandalism. Yet within a day or so Tony was at User_talk:Mel_Etitis and had lost sight of the fact that edit wars are not more harmful than personal attacks and bullying. He publicly attacked Mel as being "dishonest" and completely ignored or brushed aside calls for him to abide by the consensus of the RfC and drop the matter, and to either present evidence supporting his allegation or apologize to Mel. This while promoting the impression that his actions represented the community, something not reflected by the results of the RfC.
An administrator occasionally acting unilaterally, exaggerating, dismissing community consensus, and losing perspective is not the most pressing of issues, considering all that goes on at Wikipedia. Yet when it becomes disruptive, or causes a fellow valued editor to taper-off his contributions, as in the case with Mel, a gentle reminder is order. Hopefully Tony will thoughtfully consider all comments in this RfC in a constructive manner and put them to positive use. Tony, I'm quoting your own recent words here: Don't desperately cast around on one hand to find someone else to blame, and on the other hand try to minimize the harm that you've done; it isn't pretty. Also: Don't be melodramatic. Just take your medicine and don't do it again. [46]. I mean this as the gentlest of reproaches.
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What sucks the worst about this RFC is that it is encouraging further tension, factionalism and voting rather than looking at simple laissez-faire solutions to problems. (Laissez-faire, by the way, needs more expansion regarding it's applications in social policy. Right now, it's almost exclusively an economics article.)
Incidentally, this is the exact same thing that Tony Sidaway is being criticized for fighting against over the course of the last several months. There is clearly a not-actually-organized group of well intentioned users who try to codify every aspect of Wikipedia into rigid rulesets rather than simply experiencing the joy of editing and staying the hell out of each others' way.
Courtesy is a whole lot easier to offer if you don't have a group of Wikilawyers trying to put everyone in lockstep. Fighting the calcification of Wikipedia is something every user should thank Tony for, as so many others don't have the stamina to keep up with the incessant drive of those whose preferences seem to be wiki-politics and codification of the community rules over building the encyclopedia.
(Do you get the sense that this also applies to AfD and VFU, where people don't seem to be willing to get out of each others' way for the sake of the community that's building the encyclopedia? If you do, you get my point. If there's a group of a few users of obvious good faith who think content is useful, then get the hell out of their way. You don't need to enforce your opinions on every corner of the place where there are no practical limits to the dataset. Just skim off the real garbage and vandalism and see what develops by the efforts of those working in their own areas of interest.)
As is clear above, I welcome Tony's efforts, and don't think they are misplaced. However, Tony should apologize for the discourtesies he's used along the way. I recommend an offer of a good faith, referenced edit to an article of each offended party's choice as proof of sincerity, but this is not a demand.
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Looking at this RFC, it is generating much tension, factionalism and voting. But we must not lose sight of this important lesson: It is extremely crucial for Tony to follow the civility policy at all times because he is a prominent, active user who has become one of the significant faces of Wikipedia. In fact, I sincerely hope that he literally posts a note to himself of this lesson next to his computer. Because I am deeply concerned that frequent incivil outbursts from any prominent, highly active admin might damage Wikipedia's reputation. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:28, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony Sidaway is a good editor, we can all agree on that. However, as Zzyzx11 points out, he has become one of the public faces of Wikipedia, due to his administrator status. While adminship is not a big deal, it does come with some responsibilities, and one of the most important ones is to be a good example for other editors. Tony has given plenty of good examples, but the summary undeletion at Woodroffe Avenue's entry on Deletion review isn't one of them. It even made me momentarily lose my head and vote out of spite in that article. My point is that administrators have a de facto requirement of doing everything we as a community expect of all users. One of those expectations is to engage in discussion with other uses, and not to unilaterally perform any action that might upset the work of other uses without discussing it first. Tony, I am completely sure that you only mean the best for Wikipedia; however, if there's something I would like you to remember from all of this is that Ignore all rules does not mean Ignore all discussion. Outside of that, you're doing a good job.
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Tony is a good editor and I feel that he does act in good faith. However, I also feel that he occasionally is uncivil — as others have documented — including a few times with me: Davenbelle up to his old tricks and This [is] the most revolting bit of gratuitous nastiness I have seen from you. Utterly beyond belief.
My primary concern with Tony's conduct on wikipedia is his befriending and protecting problem users well after it is obvious that they are a problem. I refer specifically to the arbitrations in which I've been involved with
User:Trey Stone and
User:Cool Cat.
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This RfC is outragious and in no way (I can see) does it benefit wikipedia. I protest the very existance of this RfC at the highest degree it fits civility. -- Cool Cat Talk 04:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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This is a particularly difficult case, and I've ended up endorsing a range of views here. I have little doubt that Tony means well and is acting in good faith here, and to that end I think Kelly Martin summed it up quite nicely. I also agree that his presence here - though this has lessened markedly lately - has been quite helpful to Wikipedia. At the same time, I'm sick and tired of the righteous incivility, and the unnecessarily controversial actions with little regard for consensus or playing nicely with others. This would be easily enough solved if Tony tried to treat others with respect (which I notice that he has pledged to do in the future) and talked controversial proposals over instead of doing them unilaterally. It might also be helped by Tony - and other parties involved in these frequent battles - calming down a bit and dropping the constant fixation on deletion issues at the expense of all else. We're here to write an encyclopedia, and frankly, if all you're doing is fighting inclusion-deletion battles, you're really not helping us much. I've become fairly cynical about all of this changing, but who knows, I might be surprised. Ambi 09:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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You can see from the above comments a pattern of arrogance, hostitility, and a double standard. The first contentious article I edited on the Wikipedia was Terri Schiavo.
This interaction was instructive to me as to why many wikipedia contributors choose to remain anonymous and how Wiki-intimidation works.
I know what the consensus of the cabal is that all this arrogance, hostility, and double standards are necessary to enable the Tony Sidaway's of the Wikipedia to deal with the patsw's of the Wikipedia. The problem with double standards like they deserved it, of course, applies only when you are not part of the "they" on the receiving end. So does the Wikipedia work on policies and guidelines or smart people who condsider themselves above the policies and guidelines that only apply to the little people? When they deserve it, does anything go?
I'm just thankful that every so often there arises an opportunity to hold this behavior up to wider scrutiny. I'm not Tony's victim. Perhaps the cabal considers this rough treatment described above as a rite of passage for a newbie which I was in April 2005. patsw 16:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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If you hang around articles that are politically charged, WP:AFD, WP:VFU and similar Wiki namespace areas as much as Tony does, you're bound to end up getting in a disagreement or have another editor end up argueing with you at some point in time or another. I won't contest that Tony may have come across to some as arrogant, condescending or authoritarian, and may have not followed all the proper procedures all the time, but I will contest that he did so maliciously and or with callous disregard for his fellow editors. I first encountered Tony in never ending arguments (mostly my bad) over in the George W Bush talk pages...and in the face of my rather blunt and sometimes hostile demeanor then, Tony was the voice of calm. At times, I am suprised he didn't file an RFC against me, but realize now that he didn't because he isn't petty, and he is able to admit that he may not always be right, just as he has done in statements made here. The difference between the working relationship Tony and I have compared to those that have endorsed this RFC and Tony, was a result of us both listening to each other and relying on talk pages and a belief that a good dose of civility can make a big difference. That's my prescription in this matter as well. MONGO 16:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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Tony does get carried away at times, and it would be advisable for him to tone down some of his remarks. Having said that, I don't believe that his strongly worded comments (most of which — including the examples cited above — are justified) have escalated to a level of incivility warranting this RfC.
As noted by others, Tony participates in many controversial goings-on. His handling thereof is nothing short of commendable, as he consistently applies the same set of standards to every situation (irrespective of what/who is involved). In some cases, Tony is one of relatively few users to challenge the common sense-defying bureaucracy that plagues our community (and damages the integrity of the encyclopedia). As such, it isn't surprising that he steps on a few toes along the way. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Tony (which I sometimes do), it's abundantly clear that his actions (including the controversial ones) are made in good faith.
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Tony Sidaway is a very good admin, a WP:COOL guy but he is only a human like the rest of the good contributors here (apart from the bots).
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There's no denying that Tony Sidaway has a tendency to explode with indignation and become offensive, generally followed by an iron-clad stubborn refusal to back down, however obviously he's overstepped the mark or simply got things wrong. I've experienced it myself, a some have pointed out here. Perfectly true, of course, that that's human (did anyone suggest otherwise, though), and certainly not the biggest threat to Wikipedia; no more than a very, very minor threat if that. What worries me about this RfC is rather the reaction of others. In the face of the evidence, and even though he himself has accepted that he has been uncivil, and has apologised (generally rather than individually, but still, many of his supporters have blindly denied that he's been anything but courteous under fire. Instead of comments like: "yes, he's made mistakes, but this RfC is an overreaction", or the like, we see: "leave the poor mite alone, he's a little angel". It's that lack of judgement on the part of editors, including admins and ArbCom members, that worries me, and to my mind constitutes a much greater threat to Wikipedia than T.S.'s outbursts.
In my own case, I see that some of those same people are occasionally still referring to my "biting newbies", etc., despite the fact that there was no evidence for this, and a pile of evidence to show that I'd done no such thing, but had explained Wikipedia policies and guidelines at length and repeatedly, and tried to sort matters out civilly and sensibly. So the lack of judgement in T.S.'s case isn't completely blind, but adjusts to cases (and, more significantly, to people); T.S. pleads guilty and is defended as having done no wrong, while I provide evidence of my innocence and am attacked as having offended grievously.
These are just two cases; there are many more examples. I don't know what the root is – shared politics, or financial inetrests, or personal friendship, or something I've not thought of – but what's especially worrying is that there's so little attempt to hide the behaviour. But why should there be? What can anyone do to stop it?
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In an early comment above Tony calls this a "pot-luck" RfC. I tend to agree. Let's all get this on the brain same dispute with a single user. Who is the offended party? What, precisely, is the dispute? I'm not saying that people haven't raised legitimate complaints about his behaviour, but what exactly is the focus of this? This is in some ways a meta-wiki comment, but I often stumble across these RfCs and wonder what the f--- is the point beyond allowing bitterness to accrue in a single spot. Cite a specific dispute before starting up these random shooting matches. Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
This may well be condemned as fishing for additional conflict, or a pointless restatement of already-expressed ideas, but please accept my assurances that it's not intended as such. There's ample evidence (and his own admission) that Tony has problems with civility. Combine that with his attraction to controversy, and you've got a volatile situation. I think the ability to stay cool is essential for an administrator, and to me this means Tony should give up his adminship. I'm not saying he's a bad editor or that the project is better off without him, I'm simply saying he should not be an administrator right now.
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Why is this ok but my much more gentle proposal removed? "Rubbish", "Ought to be ashamed", etc?
brenneman
(t)
(c)
01:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
My only guess at to why this RfC is happening must be something to do with
Luigi30's Law. The longer you are in the thick of things, like Tony has been, the more likely you are to become desensitized and myopic to issues that you've heard time and time again. However, unlike many other users paralyzed by the effects of "long in the tooth hubris", Tony can step back from an issue and find a way to work constructively if he feels he went too far, as I learned at
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Maoririder/Evidence once he realized I was acting under
WP:AGF.
Since then, he's been a valued asset to my growth within Wikipedia, and even though I disagree with his opinion on
WP:IAR, we'd be losing a great part of our community if he left and I ask everybody here to try and help him out if it seems like any potential heated arguments happen again, as I hope we can all do for each other.
Karmafist 18:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I rescind my comment here.
karmafist
22:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
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I look at the Albert M. Wolters discussion on this RfC's talk page and I clearly see people trying to work together for the betterment of Wikipedia. Trying to make a collective decision as per Wikipedia:Consensus. At the point where Tony joined into this discussion, qualified statements about "not repeating AfD" are in fact tendered, but good sense was also being displayed and the discussion was happily moving in the direction that Tony prefered. Tony, for reasons that are still unclear to me, choose to abandon this, and engage in a little bit of revert warring and raise no small amount of bad blood.
When I look over Tony's contributions, especially those areas where Tony has received praise, I see page protection and adding of editorial content. Neither one nor the other of these requires Tony to interact heavily with other users, I am quick to note. Also, several people have praised Tony for his gentle treatment of people new to Wikipedia. Again, this does not require Tony to engage in debate, nor to accept any feedback on his behaviour.
The areas where Tony seems to have difficulty are in working as equals with people whose views happen to differ from his own. I understand that it is frustrating for Tony when people don't see things the way that Tony does, and can be maddening when attempts to sway them are unsuccessful. I also understand that it is often easier to kill the messenger than accept an unpalatable message.
I understand that deletion is a particular bone of contention with Tony, and I'm sorry to bring it up again. It serves, however, as an excellent example of the sort of problems that have led to this RfC. Tony initially took some part in the discussion of changes from "Vote for Undeletion" to "Deletion Review". When Tony dropped out of that discussion, I urged him to remain involved, but Tony declined. When that discussion was completed and long after the changes were made, Tony engaged in an edit war over what Tony found unacceptable. Discussion has now moved on, and I credit Tony for the part he is taking in it.
When I examine his previous RfC I see strong support for his autonomy as an admin, but also quite a lot of discussions around how things could have been handled differently. The talk, in particular, has paragraph after paragraph of thoughtful commentary regarding how his conduct could be improved, as well as much strong support for Tony personally and for his actions as an admin. Despite some incivility scattered around, it was a nuanced, positive outcome. Tony appears, however, either unable or unwilling to see the complexities, and prefers to think of it as a victory.
As I watch this RfC unfold, something similar appears to be happening. Like an oyster turning painful grit into a pearl, every criticism, whether carefully worded or woefully intemperate, only adds another layer to his victory.
A word that I see used with frightening regularity by Tony is "false". Tony defends his paradigm with great vigour, and denounces as falsehood things that challenge it. I believe that his binary view of AfD outcomes is, in fact, simply a representation of his binary view on life. Any RfC that doesn't utterly destroy him is a victory, any outlook that does not parallel his own is falsehood. his reductionist factionionalisation of contributors as "deletionists" is simply another facet of this same behaviour.
I understand that life-long habits are very hard to change. I also understand that, at some level, this must be very painful for Tony. It's no fun for anyone else, either. I also see that many of those who defend Tony so strongly often are forced to resort to the same anti-intellectual, divisive, binary language.
I've attempted on several occasion to reconcile my differences with Tony, and will do so again. I'd ask that Tony take the very difficult step of understanding that there are no "sides" here, that both the world and Wikipedia are full of shades of grey. I'd ask that Tony attempt to stop viewing things as "blatant falsehoods" or "ridiculous calumny". I'd ask that Tony set aside his love of a well turned phrase and engage those with whom he disagrees.
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As Tony has refused to appropriately deal with this RfC and indeed has said he will no longer read it, I move we bring this to the next level and file an ArbCom request. Agriculture 01:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
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The following interaction was one of my first interactions with Tony Talk:List_of_biomedical_terms. I spent a lot of time splitting this list from a giagantic A-Z info dump into smaller pages one for each letter in the alphabet. In the process of doing this I realised that this list was not encyclopedic and in fact a detriment to wikipedia since it would direct editors to produce redundent or non-relevent pages. Tony was not willing to accept the rationale for this deletion. Not only did he not listen to the arguments he put down those of us that instigated it. His quotes at the time: "Don't try to delete it ever again" "if the mind-numbing stupidity of the deletion isn't evident to everyone then there's no point" He also reminded us that one can "Fuck the rules" as he demonstrated. As a newbie at the time, I was close to packing up and leaving since this non collaborative and, frankly, hostile environment is not pleasant and NOT productive.
I then ran into him on several school deletion threads where he was acting in a similar manner. I have NEVER seen Tony compromise, except when the consensus is so much against him he has no option. Since i do not follow his every step in wikipedia, I could be very wrong on this issue, but from what i have seen he is more destructive to the process of building an encyclopedia than constructive. I mean this in the sense that he often frustrates valuable editors who are acting in good faith. I am sure Tony does a lot of positive for the encyclopedia and I would encourage him to keep those things up but I wonder how many other editors have left due to his dogmatic postion on most issues?
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I will restate the repeatedly stated and note that this is a difficult case. I have endorsed several outside views that try to address this issue in a nuanced way. I do have a few comments that I have not seen made.
The first is that I would suggest that Wikipedia: Ignore all rules should be deprecated, or viewed as a controversial guideline, like Delete Personal Attacks. (I would delete it, but I think I am in the minority there.) It can encourage strong-willed editors, such as Tony is, to be harsh and abrasive, as he is. There are certain Wikipedia rules that should never be ignored. They include civility, NPOV, and respect for consensus. There is room for disagreement on whether Tony has been "uncivil" and thus in violation of policy or simply harsh and abrasive. However, IAR should never be seen as allowing breaches of civility. There is room for disagreement on whether Tony has disregarded consensus. That allegation has been made. I would disagree, but would also say that the fact that it has been made repeatedly does mean that Tony should at least address such concerns. IAR should never be seen as encouraging disregard of consensus.
My second comment is that many, probably most, of the issues about Tony have involved deletion. Deletion questions are inherently controversial, and always will be. The problem is not simply that the deletion process is flawed or broken, although it does appear to be. The real problem is that there will never be any consensus on deletion. Any deletion question involves conflicts in philosophical concepts of what Wikipedia is and should be. Since there will never be consensus, civility is even more important than elsewhere in Wikipedia. In most of the deletion disputes that have been cited that I have studied, it appears that Tony was both right and abrasive, and that being right did not warrant being abrasive. Admins who handle deletion have a special duty not just to try to be civil, but to be seen as being civil, and to avoid being abrasive.
In deletion questions, Tony may be the right admin in the wrong place. He can either change his style, or apply his considerable ability in other areas, such as page protection, that are not inherently controversial. It might be easier for him to change his area of emphasis than his style.
Tony has apologized, and has said that he will try to change his conduct so that it does not appear to be uncivil. I would also suggest that he consider avoiding the inherently controversial area of deletion, at least for a while. I think that would be a good resolution.
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Wow, this RfC is getting too big. I like Tony Sidaway, and I think he is doing what is best for Wikipedia, even if others don't like it. While some things on his part may be incivil, in think two RfCs and an overkill debate is getting tiring.
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